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Subject: War Within A Breath
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The following thread was originally posted between 3 and 4 pm CDT on May 4, 2005 in the Maw, the link to the original thread follows:

http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=3250775

The copied thread refers to another thread that was locked which can be found here:

http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=3250775

[original thread follows]
So, you guys lock threads when you don't like what they have to say, eh? Just remember that without us, you'd have no forums to moderate.... and nobody to sell your products to.

When we make threads about unfairness, we expect them answered and not locked. Civilized people discuss disagreements and work out injustices. This isn't a flame or a warning - this post is me opening dialogue with you - the moderators - so that we can talk about this like adults.
[end original thread]

Respectfully,
Inspire


[Edited on 5/7/2005]

  • 05.07.2005 5:30 PM PDT
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One of the main reasons for that being locked was the fact that it was in the wrong forum. The Mods are just doing their jobs.

  • 05.07.2005 5:45 PM PDT

I can answer this with two points:

1) Don't post off-topic threads. They will be locked or deleted with or without warning.

2) Report stuff. Do you HONESTLY expect us to check EVERY SINGLE THREAD 24 HOURS A DAY?! REALLY?! It does piss me off to see people complaining about us allegedly blacklisting for minor things and not blacklisting for major things. It's because no-one actually bothers to say "oh, some moron broke the rules, here's the thread". No. Instead they make a thread that says "the mods are blam, they missed this racist comment on page 33 of 'wats ur gt'". We each have a PM box. We have an e-mail address. TELL US about stuff.

Rant over.

  • 05.07.2005 5:55 PM PDT
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We have been openly inviting a response from the mods for several days now, but yet we still recieve no reply. There has been too much unfairness and now the members of The Maw have just about had enough (the regulars at any rate).

Reasonable threads have on countless occasions been locked or deleted for next to no reason whatsoever, yet certain people are openly discussing illegal copies of Halo PC, keygens and generally just being bad eggs without consequence.

We feel this is totally unjustified and now think the time has come for something to happen... Either elect one of our (sensible) regulars to take on the role of moderator specifically for The Maw, or, we just want Bungie to take a close look at those who are currently mods.

Enough is enough and it's time for change!

Edit: this must have been typed as the same time as you Goweb, but I have notified mods before about illegal posting and my information (with links) have been ignored...

[Edited on 5/7/2005]

  • 05.07.2005 5:59 PM PDT

It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier, not the lawyer, who has given us the right to a fair trial. And it is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves the flag, whose coffin is draped in the flag that allows the protester to burn the flag.Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC

The Mods do tend to lock good posts that make mature aguments while leaving a witty comment, instead of answering the question, or responding to the problem. There are countless off topic, spam, flame, and just plain stupid threads.

And let us not forget the thread were a mod who shall remain nameless said the following
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For any complaints regarding Bungie's choice in new moderators...
...Please stuff them into the nearest trash receptacle.
Some of you seem to have forgotten whose website this is. We make the rules. We decide the moderators. You deal, or you go. That's all there is to it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now correct me if i am wrong, but I thought that this place was for the fans to leave there feedback. Telling us to throw our ideas in the trash doesnt sound like bungie cares to me.

But I dont think that the mod speaks for the company. I also dont see why a mod is allowed to treat Bungies loyal fans like dirt, while a member faces blacklisting for a lesser offense.

Just my opinion i dont want a fight

EDIT- DArn typed same time had mod. We send u guys PMs all the time and they are never answerd or responded to.




[Edited on 5/7/2005]

  • 05.07.2005 6:00 PM PDT

We have been openly inviting a response from the mods for several days now, but yet we still recieve no reply. There has been too much unfairness and now the members of The Maw have just about had enough (the regulars at any rate).
Unfairness? I'm not even going to justify that.
Reasonable threads have on countless occasions been locked or deleted for next to no reason whatsoever, yet certain people are openly discussing illegal copies of Halo PC, keygens and generally just being bad eggs without consequence.
Reasonable, off-topic threads? See the whole mindset issue.
And let us not forget the thread were a mod who shall remain nameless said the following
As for you, you were lucky not to have been blacklisted also. So just shut up about the whole, OLD issue, seeing as it concerns you in no way whatsoever.

  • 05.07.2005 6:16 PM PDT
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Goweb,

I have heard you say that off-topic threads will be deleted, yet I have not heard any explanation why or how Muffmeister's original thread (which I reference in the beginning of this thread) was off-topic.

Now, I imagine you have justification, I am merely uninformed as to what it is. However, where should such a thread be posted? Please do not tell me not at all - a governing body that goes unchallenged or that is not held accountable by its constituents is totalitarian. All we're really seeking here is fairness - not lay blame.

If we have not gone about this in the proper manner, please inform us as to the proper procedure - we have already sent PM's to the mods. I understand you guys are human - we all are - in fact, I honestly wish I could help you guys moderate the forums, but such as it is, we have to do the best we can with the cards we're dealt.

We're playing our cards. We want the Maw to be a little friendlier, and we're trying to take step to make that happen rather than -blam!-ing about it amongst ourselves.

So, an explanation as to why Muffmeister's post was locked was all we really wanted.

By the way, Goweb - I do appreciate you taking the time to address this issue, you are the first mod to do so.

It is disheartening however that it had to come to this before our voices were heard.

Respectfully,
Inspire

  • 05.07.2005 6:31 PM PDT

Only Becausae I'm Awesome

Forum Tutorials --- WATCH THEM AND LEARN

Posted by: aM Inspire
I have heard you say that off-topic threads will be deleted, yet I have not heard any explanation why or how Muffmeister's original thread (which I reference in the beginning of this thread) was off-topic.


As has been said multiple times in this thread already, the thread which you speak of, was in the incorrect forum. The Maw is for discussing Halo PC, and Halo Custom Edition only. The thread which you are refering to, was a discussion about how the mods are doing their jobs. Those type of threads, belong in here, The Septagon.

  • 05.07.2005 6:50 PM PDT
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Unfairness? Maybe it is fair, maybe it isn't. I dunno, Chewy was banned for something pretty stupid, he just said that keygens work with single player [claims he never said anything at all], and I never did figure out why I got banned a while back. Supposedly for calling someone a n***, but I have never even used that word in forums, let alone here at Bungie. However, when there is a thread asking for mod attention or at the very least recognition, no mod responds. It has been longer than 24 hours, maybe even more like 3 days, so no response obviously means people are turning their heads.

So you lock a thread that is healthy, yet one that involves illegal activities slips by? So an off-topic thread is worse than an on-topic thread dealing with illegal activity? I'd almost say that you have to allow a few off-topics in The Maw, and most have at least a semblance of relevance. We're a pretty close group of members, we all know each other, and there's not a lot of us. Many of us don't venture out simply because Halo 2's forums are way too chaotic and the others don't appeal to our interests. We like to talk with our small group, and we can't just talk about HaloPC all the time.

Well, can't say anything about the 'nameless' mod thread because I wasn't there...

We're not asking for more than this: help in retaining the atmosphere of The Maw. It used to be such a nice little place, no flames, not a whole lot of threads, peaceful. Now there's tension, repetitive threads [lots of them, too], many threads dealing with illegal activities - it's not the same, it's slowly transforming into the Halo 2 forums.

We want that coffeehouse feel back to our forum. We'd like it to feel more like a community. What better way to have that than:

1. Have fairer, more consistent moderating. You lock a thread for being off topic, yet the thread at the top that is still there, I might add, says 'where can I download Halo PC?', gets overlooked. Consistency is what we want. You don't HAVE to look at every thread, but at least scan the titles. That's at the very least how active a mod should be.

2. A mod who actually interacts. I don't know about anyone else, but every other forum I have ever belonged to had active mods. They conversed, gave advice, and seemed to fit in with the others, occasionally having to bust someone. This makes it feel more like a community and less like an absolute dictatorship to fear. A mod should be like a member, taking part in discussion and provoking thoughtful threads. He shouldn't just stand by until something against the forum rules happens.

I would like to add that when I said 'you', I didn't mean anyone specifically. So goweb, please don't take it as a personal attack or anything. I really don't want to incite any anger or harsh feelings between anyone. The tension between mods and members in The Maw is already enough.

I just want to bring The Maw back to what it was before. I'm not all for this 'war' thing. That just puts it in people's heads that we want to cause some fighting. I think that The Maw is in a bit of a confused state that is growing more chaotic. I want The Maw to remain that little corner, that little niche in these forums like it has, and we want some leadership that is both active and consistent, and not arbitrary. I think I speak for all Maw members when I say that.

  • 05.07.2005 7:03 PM PDT
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Ok, maybe it was posted in the wrong place even though I was talking about The Maw, but that still doesn't explain why things like THIS go unchallenged...

Or THIS...

Or THIS...

I could go on and on giving examples, but is there actually any point? All of these have been posted within the past two or three days... aren't they also 'off topic' then?

The point is, the option is there for someone to watch over The Maw and take some of the strain away. All we are doing is trying to offer a solution.

  • 05.07.2005 7:06 PM PDT

It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier, not the lawyer, who has given us the right to a fair trial. And it is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves the flag, whose coffin is draped in the flag that allows the protester to burn the flag.Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC

well, the mod was addressing everyone, and i consider myself a one. So it did concern me at the time. And saying i will be blacklisted?? why? what rule did i break?? That another issue, for another time.

I think that problem was resolved, just using it has an example. Didnt mean to offend you.

We arnt posting here to be dicks, we just want some issues that we feel are important resolved. We dont want to flame or argue. This is ment to be a mature disscussion.

[Edited on 5/7/2005]

  • 05.07.2005 7:18 PM PDT
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Yes, if anything, the mods that read this shouldn't assume we are directing attacks at anyone in particular. Most of the time we don't know who bans or locks stuff, so we can't even pinpoint a person - nor should we anyway.

  • 05.07.2005 7:22 PM PDT
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A very good point, littlerat, one that I was, honestly unaware of. Thanks for letting me know.

My two cents (which at the current exchange rate is practically nothing) - a simple explanation that Muffmeister's thread was locked because it belonged in the septagon would have saved us all a lot of headache. I realize you guys have a LOT of posts to go through and you don't owe us an explanation, but please realize that, in this instance, it definitely would have helped.

However, the issue has now made its way here, which, by what you said is the correct place for it.

Though the thread was missplaced, Muffmeister's point remains. I will not make it for him, however, I think it is a very valid point. He was speaking of moderating the forums evenly. I encourage you to examine his thread - he elaborated his point in the original War Within a Breath Thread that is referenced at the beginning of this thread.

Other members of the Maw have their own beefs with the mods. Most of those beefs are outlined somwhere within the War Within a Breath thread that was refernced in the original post. Mine is done.

We will from this point forward pm you all and bring our threads here.

[Edited on 5/7/2005]

  • 05.07.2005 7:23 PM PDT
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Firstly..

I greatly appreciate it that a Mod [goweb] answered our posts with
some well.. shud i say enthusiasm.. but well look at the facts..

1. we say u blacklist for minor stuff and miss major stuff..
WE MEAN IT! we dont need u to read every post and every
thread.. but heck at least read the friggin topics, theyre so obvious
this dude pops into the forum and sez, where can i downlaod halo
and the topic is the same and the last time i checked
nothing was done to the poster or the thread. So now.. isnt that major?

2. we expect as forum user to have equal treatment.. now i dont see that
present here in this website, 'the maw' is heavilly undermoderated
compared to the other forums and the quality of moderation (i dont care
if i get blacklisted) is comparable to DOG $H17! (xcuze my french we request fair moderation.. and responses from the moderators... this thread was sitting in
'the maw' for a bit of time and lookie lookie .. not one mod replied... and
Inspire bring this over here and KABLAMO theres a response.. i dont know
seems liek 'the maw' is out of the field of vision of the mods.

Heres what we request, (request, not order or compell u to do) 1- please moderate
the maw more efficiently and effectively, please make sure to keep a check on it, please make sure to lock dem threads about keygenc and cracks, please try to justify
why someone was blaclisted ONLY wen we cannt see a reason to it. 2- please acknowledge the incident that happened and give us ur side and explanation!

that is all thankyou...

-PeaCe!

  • 05.07.2005 7:32 PM PDT

Devil is Double is Deuce and Joker always trumps Deuce.

Sorry, but I'm gonna go with the mods on this one. Bungie chose them for a reason, so accept their judgement. Besides, freedom of speech doesen't apply to Bungie.net, so mods can lock whatever they see fit.

  • 05.07.2005 7:49 PM PDT
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Cool, so you agree that threads blatently dealing with illegal activites should not be taken care of while muff's should? Muff's thread wasn't against any US laws, but it was against bungie rules. The 'where to download HaloPC' threads are against both - and yet they survive.

We're not questioning Bungie's decision about who gets to be a mod, nor are we challenging the fact that there is no freedom of speech here - we know that because of the forum's rules. We're questioning whether the mods are actually doing their jobs in our forum. We can do that, and we have every right to, especially in light of current things going on in our forum. I'm sorry, but I can't even begin to reason or justify mod activity in The Maw for the past while. It's so inconsistent and random.

[Edited on 5/7/2005]

  • 05.07.2005 8:05 PM PDT
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Originaly Posted By Recon Number 54
I will be the first to admit that I do not scan The Maw as often as I scan other forums. I have on occasion, contributed to threads there that catch my eye, but for the most part, I have felt (perhaps mistakenly) that the regulars of The Maw were a self-reliant and one of the more rule-conscious groups of Bungie.Net members.

I have nothing in my PM box from anyone who mentioned any problem threads and/or members in The Maw.

I could have been wrong, but when I have visited The Maw I have found most posts, threads and participants to be older, more mature, more aware of online etiquette and the specific Bungie.Net rules (I had assumed that was because they were typically online PC gamers who are generally more mature and savvy (ie: older) than the "typical" adolescent console gamer).

If the first that I hear of a problem is a thread in The Septagon, then perhaps that forum does need more attention than my previous laissez-faire approach. Previously, I was under the impression that the regulars of that forum were more than able to deal with simple issues by making friendly and informative replies to a lost or unaware member. I have though that those regulars would PM or otherwise notify us of an issue that required moderator intervention.

Since it appears that I was mistaken, I will be happy to make my rounds more frequently through The Maw. If you would though, please do not hesitate to PM me for any issues or problems. I am not on 24/7 and I do not review every thread or every post, but I DO read and respond to nearly every PM that I get.


I see that we are complaining that some off topic threads are closed, and others aren't, people are blacklisted for comparativly minor offenses, while other, worse, offenders aren't blacklisted. To be fair, now that I look at some of the points and the "evidence" that has been given, I see that the off topic threads that aren't closed normaly have someone saying it is in the wrong forum or in someway letting the poster know the thread isn't supposed to be there, and the off topic threads that are closed are off topic with no one saying it shouldn't be there. We on the Maw, as Recon said, are mature enough to do a mods job, without mod powers. Therefore, they don't need to mod it as much. However, it doesn't mean there should be less modding. The threads that we do point in the right direction should be deleted/closed after they have been pointed in the right direction. The ones you close that we don't point in the right direction should have a reply stating the reason for closure, just so we don't come to this again. On the blacklisting thing, it seems to me that one of four things is happening.

1. There is a bug that blacklists people
2. The Mods are blacklisting for minor offenses
3. There is a rampaging Mod that is out to get us
4. The Mods are blacklisting without doing any background research into the blacklistee.

If it is the first one, it needs to be fixed. If it is the second one, the Mods need to lighten up. If it is the third one, well I was only joking. If it was the fourth one, there is something wrong. Blacklisting should be something that doesn't happen often, but when it does, its for a good reason and the person has been warned about their behaviour before. If blacklisting is the only thing you do to punish people, for both minor, major and all the in between offenses you need to rethink your punishment system.

I also think that while mods have extra power than normal users, they should also be part of the community. I can't speak for any forums except for the Maw and maybe the Library and Zanzibar, as I do go there occasionaly, but I will say there there is very little to no mod interaction that is not blacklisting, closing, or deleting threads. You may not have very much time to actually reply to posts, but you must have some time. I have seen a total of ONE post made by a moderator on a user created thread that was actually about the topic. Other than this one of course.

[Edited on 5/7/2005]

  • 05.07.2005 8:16 PM PDT

It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier, not the lawyer, who has given us the right to a fair trial. And it is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves the flag, whose coffin is draped in the flag that allows the protester to burn the flag.Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC

Thats another thing. The mods may blacklist a member that they think is breaking the rules at first glance. But if they took just a fiew seconds to read though the posts, it would make a world of difference.

again just a suggestion

[Edited on 5/7/2005]

  • 05.07.2005 8:22 PM PDT
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Posted by: EAGLES5
Thats another thing. The mods may blacklist a member that they think is breaking the rules at first glance. But if they took just a fiew seconds to read though the posts, it would make a world of difference.

again just a suggestion


i agree on that

any hoo we are not saying you read all psots
but we say if u see a minorly offensive psot
or a suspicious post, before blacklisting the user
who made the post i might jsut wanna read at lease
2 posts above or two posts below...

  • 05.07.2005 8:53 PM PDT
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My two cents on the issue.

I've never seen a mod flame before. It's interesting.

I just want it to be consistent. If there are going to be minor offense blacklistings, follow through on the major offense blacklistings. Warnings before blacklistings would be nice too, along with when you are, a reason as to why. Everything else has been mentioned already. Same with the apologies about being human and such. But responses to PM's would be nice...

However, I'm not saying that you don't do your jobs ALL the time. There was once this unsavory character named hihi...

And since we're on the topic, I belive The Maw should be self-modded. Of course, this may be my political view slipping in as I'm almost completely liberatarian.

In any case, that's that. I await the casualites.

Yout3

EDIT: The flaming thing was uncalled for, but man, it felt good.

[Edited on 5/7/2005]

  • 05.07.2005 9:41 PM PDT

I got a good laugh when I read that thing about us "not participating in the community". I sometimes get so involved in a thread, I forget to get back to the whole job of moderating. All of the mods have been chosen for consistent, long-term involvement in the community. That doesn't mean that you'll see us join in every discussion on every forum, since we'd have to have an actual interest in every thread to do that. I generally don't do the whole "involvement" thing in many of the Halo/Halo 2 forums, since I'm not too interested in the discussion that goes on there. So if you spend all your time in The Library, The Maw, New Mombasa, Zanzibar, and/or Optimatch, you probably will get the idea that I'm not "participating in the community". If you're a regular in the Underground or Septagon or even the Flood, you might know who I am.

Having to cut down on actually getting involved in the community is one of the occupational hazards of moderating forums with somewhere around a million users. It comes with the territory. That doesn't mean we aren't "one of the people" or whatnot. It just means that most of our time is spent locking, deleting and (occasionally) moving topics which are in breach of the rules, and then firing off a PM to the guy who started the thread. We might even blacklist someone now and then, again usually with an accompanying note explaining our reasons behind it. If it happens to you and you disagree, feel free to reply. I'm always happy to bring people up to speed on the terms of use and code of conduct. :)

yout3 - asking for the Maw to be "self-modded" is stupid, and smacks of pointless elitism. I'm reminded of the whole unsavoury "NMST" business.

EAGLES5 - Please stop with the "people get blacklisted even when they do nothing wrong!" business. This sentiment is entirely incorrect and unfounded. I know as a fact that not one of the moderators would ever unleash ninjas on a user unless they were breaking the Bungie.net Code of Conduct. Any challenge a user makes to a blacklisting will almost certainly fail, because in every case, the mods know the Code far better than other members, since enforcing it is our job here. If you get blacklisted for what you believe to be unfair reasons, again, feel free to message the moderator in question - they'll be happy to go through it with you, I'm sure.

Posted by: Chewy Gumball
1. There is a bug that blacklists people
2. The Mods are blacklisting for minor offenses
3. There is a rampaging Mod that is out to get us
4. The Mods are blacklisting without doing any background research into the blacklistee.


1. The bug with the Soul has been fixed, to the best of my knowledge. With any luck it won't happen again. :)
2. Depends on your opinion of "minor". Bungie trusts the moderator team's judgement, otherwise we wouldn't have these powers. I don't think a 7-day ban is a particularly harsh punishment for somebody posting "DOES ANYONE KONW WHETEHR TEH STAT WIL BE RESTET?!!!11" in a topic discussing the connections between the Gnop and Oni stories (this sort of thing happens disturbingly frequently). That sort of behaviour is uncalled for, and the poster can not back up any claim that he/she "didn't know" that it was against the rules.
3. You are 100% correct. About two thirds of the discussion in the HFCS forum concerns which user we will maliciously go after next in our quest to satisfy our insatiable desire to abuse the powers we have on this forum. Oh, and by the way, the government has replaced your family with simulacra who are indistinguishable from their human counterparts in every way, aside from the fact that they wear mostly green, and often express their relief that it is in fact you (or is it?). Next, please.
4. I'm not sure what you mean by "research". If you mean that we should read many posts by an individual to see whether this one time they're breaking the rules is some sort of forgivable mistake, since they're "usually" a "good member"? If the police operated like this, society would break. Sorry, but the implication here is just plain absurd.

Finally, as for us missing threads, then PM us. If you see something which is against the rules, but has obviously been overlooked, then for the love of Bob, send us a Personal Message! Cripes.

- Reiginko

[Edited on 5/8/2005]

  • 05.08.2005 3:06 AM PDT

4Base Avalanch MELTDOWN
battle is only a prayer.....
.......Better Start PRAYING!!!!!!!
Chapter Founders Bungie's Group Support
Mob of Angry Peasants

Well I am not a mod but after reading this you can say I plan on staying uninvolved.

  • 05.08.2005 4:51 AM PDT
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Posted by: Mr B
Reiginko,

Its not a case of not getting involved, its a case of...well see above. Im thinking maybe you were typing that post before I posted mine.

However, the situation maybe semi resolved now, as I am currently building a list of decent mods that might actually respond to PMs (guess what, your one). Yes, I know this might bring me a blacklisting, but frankly I think a small majority of mods are powerhungry and often immature. Course, thats obviously a case with the whole forum community, so swings and roundabouts.I

ts not just the ignoring that part of the problem with the maw (and other forums I dare say), but the random and incorrect blacklisting that occasionally goes on.





And now a Toji rant.

ehemm.



I am not a Moderator on these forums

I do not know what it's like to be one in this situation

I spent alot of time trying to find out the proper way to go about things on this forum

I did not wirte the rules

I am expected to follow them

I don't not infringe on, or complain about Bungie.net staff's decisions [eg Chocie of moderators, locks and blacklistings]

Because I did not make the rules, I don't doubt wether they are correct or biast.

This is not my site

I don't own it

I don't pay for the hosting

I don't help Archronos service it

It is not m place to complain

People need to realise that this service is free. When the people who are lending there services decide to blacklist someone they have every right to. It's There's . Users cannot honestly say that the Moderators choices are wrong because they have NO say in the way the site is run. It is Bungie.net's staff who choose which way they mod. I think even the most respected users need a reminder of that sometimes.



-Toji Karume
[Student and Gamer]

P.S Sometimes complaining of imaturity is the most imature thing a person can do.

  • 05.08.2005 5:11 AM PDT

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