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This topic has moved here: Subject: Spartans, SPARAN I, SPARTAN II... to settle once and for all.
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Subject: Spartans, SPARAN I, SPARTAN II... to settle once and for all.

With B.B. gone, the passion of Bungie.net has lessened.

I'm back!

Just what was that "initial effort of Project Orion," then, hmmmm? If you think its the initial effort to get it started, that doesn't make sense in that sentence.

And I still think that "next generation of Super Soldiers" is telling us that there was an original batch of super soldiers... What you previously stated might shut me up if the book said "next generation of soldiers" instead.

Next Gen. [/i]Consoles[/i]: Improvements over the previous generation of consoles.... not gaming systems in general.

  • 07.15.2004 3:31 PM PDT
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Sure there could be any number of super soldier programs in that 500 year stretch, I'm not arguing that but there's no evidence of Spartan I's.

Project Orion was a research and development program and completely seperate from the Spartan II project. If the initial effort of the R&D program was successful, why would they cancel the Spartan I project and open the Spartan II project? A new project implies that the initial effort was unsuccessful.

As per Page 30, "As per Naval Code 45812, you are hereby conscripted into the UNSC special project, code named Spartan II." It is not merely the "Spartan" project but specifially "Spartan II" and if the initial effort was succesful why a new project?

[Edited on 7/15/2004 3:53:30 PM]

  • 07.15.2004 3:52 PM PDT

With B.B. gone, the passion of Bungie.net has lessened.

The initial effort may have been successful in its aims, but perhaps one of the side-effects of whatever augmentation they used to create the supposed Spartan-Is was decreased life-spam, hmmm? Or maybe it was successful, but the Spartan-Is simply got old, so a new generation of them was needed. Who said that the Spartan-Is had to have been canceled?

Its obvious we have different perception methods... Things can have different meanings to different people... I've seen English teachers disagree on themes of certain works, and what certain sentences mean. Both times I read The Flood, that passage meant the same to me, and I took it as evidence of Spartan-Is.... Whereas you took it as simply a description of Project Orion's success, or the like... We'll contradict eachother more and more, so I offer a "truce." If you don't accept, then I'll give up anyway.... My mind is tired of arguing at the moment. Forgive me for cowarding out of it.

  • 07.15.2004 4:11 PM PDT
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did any one notice the parallel between the fact that 300 spartans of sparta fought and only 30 spartan 2's survived the agumentation???

  • 07.15.2004 4:16 PM PDT

With B.B. gone, the passion of Bungie.net has lessened.

33 Spartan-IIs survived. Sorry.

  • 07.15.2004 4:21 PM PDT
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In the 1960s, there was a SPARTAN Program run by the Green Berets. It was not a
top-secret-kick-ass soldier project like its succesor, but rather a civil project to bring modernize the most rural portions of the United States. This could possibly be the predeccesor (Same name, special forces, used for civil purposes, after all, the SPARTAN IIs were made to quell civil unrest). Nevertheless, Draerden does raise a strong arguement.

  • 07.15.2004 4:28 PM PDT
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In order to deal with increasing civil turmoil the Colonial Millitary Administration had secretly launched project ORION back in 2491. The purpose of the program was to develop supersoldiers, code named "spartans," who would recieve special traning and physical augmentation. The inital effort was successful, and in 2517 a new group of Spartans, the II series, had been selected as the next generation of supersoldierOkay, I'll narrow that down - "project ORION back in 2491. The purpose of the program was to develop supersoldiers, code named "spartans"- now read - "new group of Spartans, the II series, had been selected as the next generation of supersoldier" - For those small minded people, that means that the first series was in 2941, the second was in 2517. There were 2 groups which means Spartan I's and Spartan II's. Sorry if someone pointed this out already. I got sick of reading all (most) of the stuff on the first page.

[Edited on 7/15/2004 4:34:30 PM]

  • 07.15.2004 4:32 PM PDT
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Not according to traditional military naming conventions:

Project Orion was meant to design a super soldier program, if the Spartan I's were successful then the Project would fold. All such Spartans from then on would be Spartan I's unless they changed the design parameters for the weapon.

Now, should they plan to redesign the Spartans in any way then they would need a new project to conduct that research and then the new crop of Spartans would receieve a new designation to tell them apart from their predecessors.

All of this brings us to the "initial effort" statement.

  • 07.15.2004 4:36 PM PDT
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Posted by: Shai Hulud
33 Spartan-IIs survived. Sorry.


oops my bad, but werent their 27 and reach and 3 on the space station right before their final battle??

  • 07.15.2004 4:37 PM PDT
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Desolation,

Project Orion's purpose was to develop the technology.
Project Spartan II was where their designs were implemented.

If the Initial effort of creating the Spartan I's was successful why did they then abandon them for the Spartan II's?

  • 07.15.2004 4:40 PM PDT
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Posted by: Magji
Posted by: Shai Hulud
33 Spartan-IIs survived. Sorry.


oops my bad, but werent their 27 and reach and 3 on the space station right before their final battle??
Yes, but if you read it again you will see that 3 Spartans were on missions to far away to be recalled to Reach (for the mission the other Spartans were going on). So, 27 on Reach, 3 in space, and 3 on missions somewhere else would equal 33 :)

  • 07.15.2004 4:42 PM PDT
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The initial project was to create supersoldiers, then it says they selected another group to be the next generation. That means there was 2 generations, meaning Spartan I's and Spartan II's :)

[Edited on 7/15/2004 4:44:43 PM]

  • 07.15.2004 4:44 PM PDT
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Posted by: Draerden
Desolation,

Project Orion's purpose was to develop the technology.
Project Spartan II was where their designs were implemented.

If the Initial effort of creating the Spartan I's was successful why did they then abandon them for the Spartan II's?


How do you know they abandoned them? Perhaps all the experiments and trials were performed on grown soldiers. Theories and designs could have been implemented on willing candidates already in the military. When these designs were used on a soldier he became a Spartan I, he was part of the original Spartan project. When they perfected these designs, and decided to create the ultimate supersoldier by kidnapping and training young children who were the best candidates, it became a much different project than using adult soldiers.

This new line of Soldiers trained from childhood were the Spartan II's

This is just as likely a possibility as there being a lack of Spartan I's, so argue your point all you like, mine is just as credible

  • 07.15.2004 4:50 PM PDT
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The genetic enhancements done upon the Spartan II's, developed by Project Orion have never before been implemented as shown in the Comminique on page 56 of Fall of Reach. Halsey is worried about how her children will take to them. In fact, the results had far fewer survivors then even Halsey expected based on their models.

Now, I'm guessing you didn't read anything I wrote before so allow me to reiterate. Military doctrine uses codenames for each individual project. Thus, there would be a Project Orion meant to design the Spartans, according to you a Project Spartan I and finally a Project Spartan II.

Now, Project Orion developed the technology for Project Spartan II since the Spartan II's are using all new technology that has never been used before.

If there were Spartan I's then the project has been cancelled, ie. unsuccessful (and the book says Orion was successful) and the Spartan II Project was implemented to fix things.

  • 07.15.2004 5:02 PM PDT
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Posted by: Dobber83
How do you know they abandoned them? Perhaps all the experiments and trials were performed on grown soldiers. Theories and designs could have been implemented on willing candidates already in the military. When these designs were used on a soldier he became a Spartan I, he was part of the original Spartan project. When they perfected these designs, and decided to create the ultimate supersoldier by kidnapping and training young children who were the best candidates, it became a much different project than using adult soldiers.

This new line of Soldiers trained from childhood were the Spartan II's

This is just as likely a possibility as there being a lack of Spartan I's, so argue your point all you like, mine is just as credible


You forget that the Genetic experiments Halsey performed on the Spartan II's had never been done before so your entire basis on testing them earlier on willing candidates does not work. (pg. 56-69 Fall of Reach, the Communique and Halsey's reaction to it.)

Also, if it became a different Project then the "initial effort" would have been unsuccessful.

  • 07.15.2004 5:06 PM PDT
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secretly launched project ORION back in 2491. The purpose of the program was to develop supersoldiers, code named "spartans," who would recieve special traning and physical augmentationHmmm........."develop supersoldiers", that means they made them (or whatever)

[Edited on 7/15/2004 5:12:40 PM]

  • 07.15.2004 5:10 PM PDT
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Posted by: Draerden
Posted by: Dobber83
How do you know they abandoned them? Perhaps all the experiments and trials were performed on grown soldiers. Theories and designs could have been implemented on willing candidates already in the military. When these designs were used on a soldier he became a Spartan I, he was part of the original Spartan project. When they perfected these designs, and decided to create the ultimate supersoldier by kidnapping and training young children who were the best candidates, it became a much different project than using adult soldiers.

This new line of Soldiers trained from childhood were the Spartan II's

This is just as likely a possibility as there being a lack of Spartan I's, so argue your point all you like, mine is just as credible


You forget that the Genetic experiments Halsey performed on the Spartan II's had never been done before so your entire basis on testing them earlier on willing candidates does not work. (pg. 56-69 Fall of Reach, the Communique and Halsey's reaction to it.)

Also, if it became a different Project then the "initial effort" would have been unsuccessful.
Actually, they never tested on kids, so they still could have done it to adults.

  • 07.15.2004 5:14 PM PDT
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Not at all, development and implementation are two entirely seperate concepts. Development is the design aspect, implementation is going from design and prototyping to actual production.

That's the first thing they teach you in Systems Design.

Secondly, they never tested on humans period. On Page 56 it is clear that Halsey is looking for advice on implementing her experiments on Binobo Chimpanzees. She is of course, talking about her Spartans. If she did have a previous crop of "volunteers" she wouldn't need this data.

  • 07.15.2004 5:24 PM PDT

With B.B. gone, the passion of Bungie.net has lessened.

I just thought of something... Now Drearden, you do bring up good points, but remember that this is the UNSC and ONI, which are many years ahead of us, and fictional... Using traditional military naming methods might not apply (although, as I said, its a good point)...

BUT, in The Fall of Reach, it clearly states that CPO Mendez was recalled to train the next batch of Spartans... Would these Spartans be Spartan-IIIs, more Spartan-IIs, or something else? And note that not much time had passed since Spartan-IIs went on the board (they were only 14 years old) when Halsey said that (I think the year was 2525).... just like not much time had passed between 2491 and 2517... Unless people, at that time, thought that Spartan-IIs were unsuccessfull (they'd only been in military action for less than a year, but they had lost a lot through the augmentation process), why start a new batch?

The answer I come up with: Because there is a threat.

If there were Spartan-Is, as I think, there was a threat then that made the military want super soldiers to solve it.

Spartan-IIs were created because of the "new" threat of rebelion and civil war within the human "empire."

The next batch of Spartans (next generation, perhaps called Spartan-IIIs, or S-III for short (possible meaning of the "S-III" stated in First Strike)) were probably created because of the threat of the Covenant, which were known within the military at that time (I think it was officially stated in the same meeting that Halsey said Mendez was off to train more Spartans).

Success or failure may not apply... we may have simply needed supersoldiers.

  • 07.15.2004 5:39 PM PDT
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You wouldn't name the based on "batches". An M16A2 is still an M16A2 no matter how many times you make up a new batch of rifles.

I do believe the Spartan III's may exist, but not because they are a new batch but a seperate project under Ackerson that uses a new means of creating the Spartans, by Flash cloning the original 30 surviving Spartans again and again.

  • 07.15.2004 5:46 PM PDT

BlueReaper Signing Off

!!!VAK ZOOI!!! is a term frequently used in multiplayer.

Gamertag: BlueReaper

I've got it.
In order to deal with an increasing gameconsole overtake of the games market the Microsoft Corporation had launched project XBOX back in 2000. The purpose of the program was to develope supergameconsoles code named Xbox's, that would recieve special processors and graphic enhancers.

The initial effort was succesfull and in 2005 a NEW group of Xbox's, "the II series, (hence the name XBOX2) had been selcted as the next generation of gameconsoles.


So as Drearden puts it this, is going to be exactly the same type of gameconsole as the XBOX, there's the same processor, same graphics card, same harddrive. That's why it's called the XBOX2, because its the same!


I don't think it would take 26 years to research the physical augmentations and field test them (think of those poor apes). I do think though that after 26 years technology could have advanced so much that they were capable of making a better Spartan, and so they did.

Notice the first paragraph where they are codenamed "Spartans", and in the second paragraph they are named "Spartans, the II series" ?, because they are talking about the new group which are augmented with the newly developed technology, that has come available in the past 26 years.

Also it says develope and not research, to my understanding development incorporates the actual production/manufacturing of the subject in question.

This is the last I've sayd about this, we obviously disagree. I'm sorry if I offended you in any way along this thread, but I truly thought I could get you to see it the same way I did.

Just as long as both of us are sattisfied we've got it straight for ourselves.

  • 07.16.2004 7:13 AM PDT
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the spartan IIs were created in 2517 so unless the greek spartans were around in 2491 your retarded odst

  • 07.16.2004 7:19 AM PDT
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Blue Reaper, I'm not saddened at all that I can't see your angle. You have based all of your argument on a single line. I've supported myself with different passages from Fall of Reach and shown examples from real life.

We know that thet genetic augmentations have never before been implemented on anyone before John and his fellows.

It's also important to note that the Spartan Project is Halsey's baby. Ackerson despises her for implementing the Spartans and refers to them as Halsey's Spartans. She would have been a baby when these Spartan I's would have been created.

Thirdly, even before the Mjolnir armours John and his Spartans became legends. If the Spartan I's saw service why weren't they so famed? Why weren't the new Spartans compared against the old?

As for your Xbox example, it's quite flawed. In addition to using a company instead of a military setup to illustrate your point, you've not done your research. Xbox had a code name while in development, before it was announced, I can't remember it at the moment but I remember being quite dissappointed when they announced the official "X-box" name. For example, the Xbox2 is currently codenamed the Xenon. That name probably won't survive to production.

In military operations, first an R&D team, usually a group inside DARPA develops the technology. Note, R&D means Research & Development. Once DARPA is done the project folds and a new project is formed that brings the prototype and plans into production. Sometimes even, for various reasons, including insuring the military isn't going to get ripped off, there is a short term project between the two that is nothing more then a feasibility study made by a completely different group.

  • 07.16.2004 8:26 AM PDT
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Posted by: BlueReaper
Thank you Legendaryjj, finaly an answer.

thanks for the research.
hey i wrote about this before him just a few hours ago.

  • 07.16.2004 8:38 AM PDT
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Except, Knight Of Dragons, this thread was created yesterday, not a few hours ago.

  • 07.16.2004 8:44 AM PDT

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