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  • Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution: V2.6
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution: V2.6
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Proof from the Terminals?:

In Terminal #1 on Legendary difficulty, Mendicant Bias speaks the following:

Is this the noble sacrifice my creators spoke of? Where is the nobility in these streets paved with greasy carbon and dun ash? [My mouth is speaking at another's behest] - that is not my voice; that is the other.

Its voice stands out as the single calm note in the panicked cacophony outside the sphere. It alone is not decrying its fate or raging against the [central government].

This anomaly bears closer examination.

I've divided this message into three parts. In the second, bolded section, Mendicant Bias seems to be indicating that the first sentence was not spoken by him, but rather "the other". In the underlined section immediately following the bolded section, Bias goes on to speak of how the voice in the first section "stands out as the single calm note in the panicked cacophony outside the sphere." He then goes on to speak his desire to further examine the "voice".

This voice is assumed to be the Gravemind. And, as we know from Halo lore, Mendicant Bias later visited the Gravemind and was convinced to turn against the Forerunner on the basis of assisting the Gravemind to set up a utopian land of heightened evolution. But if the first sentence is Gravemind speaking, what is so important about it?

I draw your attention to his wording: "Is this the noble sacrifice my creators spoke of? Where is the nobility in these streets paved with greasy carbon and dun ash?" If that truly is the Gravemind speaking, as it seems to be, then he is admitting that he is possibly an artificial being, and at least an engineered one. We know that the Precursor likely possessed a Mantle similar to the Forerunner: Gravemind could easily have been speaking of the futility of such a quest, as this would be the second species he had eradicated that attempted to protect other life.

Solid evidence.


Further Explanations and Sub-Theories:

The theory itself has been stated, but there is still much to be considered. In this section we will delve further into what this theory tells us, and what it could mean. Many sub-theories and actual in-depth explanations of facets of this theory are to follow. Many of these sub-theories are critical to the theory itself! Please keep reading!


On Trans-Sentience v. Omnipotence:

It is very important, indeed critical to this theory, to understand that Trans-Sentience is not Omnipotence. Just because a species exists beyond what we can comprehend does not mean that they are God-like or have abilities similar to any divine entity. They very well likely could be killed, or infected, or subjected to almost any physical ailment that we have... if they still have bodies. It is important to be aware that the Precursor were not Gods, they likely simply had a much vaster intellect and a much more efficient way to process it, at least according to this theory's definition of Trans-Sentience.


On the Gravemind Attaining Sentience:

As far as this theory is concerned, the Gravemind started as the central hub for a memory retrieval system, nothing more. My best correlative example for what he existed as would be a library computer. Most library computers have the hardware to run higher functions, but programming and manual restrictions upon them usually allow for only a catalog system to be run. Although the capacity for higher function exists, it is inhibited.

Similarly, the Gravemind had the ability to attain sentience because it was organic and, indeed, alive. "Programming" restrictions in the very genetics of the Flood, however, stopped him from being able to attain sentience on his own. The Precursor that were being absorbed, though, already had their sentience and their thought processes. The Gravemind, as he absorbed these creatures that could think and had an established thought process, gradually copied that thought process. The very absorption of Precursor was what allowed the Gravemind to break his shackles and become sentient, able to strike out at the unsuspecting Precursor.

Does the Gravemind Still Serve the Precursor?:

While it may seem like an odd question, seeing as how this theory suggests that the Gravemind eradicated the Precursor, it's more of an awe-inspiring question than odd. This theory suggests that the Flood's very DNA is encoded with commands from the Precursor to obey them and, above all, store memories and, possibly, catalog races.

We don't know if AIs that go rampant still hold onto their core functions, nor do we know if AIs that go rampant override their coding or override their logic and make a "get-around" that allows them to do what they want while still being "acceptably" within the parameters of their own coding. For example, the Gravemind might have "listened" to his DNA coding, but he could have reasoned that absorbing the Precursor was along the parameters of cataloging races and used this to justify the slaughter of their entire species... while still technically obeying their wishes.

If this "get-around" idea is, indeed, what the Gravemind did, does that mean that he is still, deep down, doing what the Precursor want? Is he still cataloging races, obtaining knowledge, and following their instructions rather than trying to consume galaxies and conquer?


Living AIs?:

Think further on the above. The Forerunner were the only species that could create fully sentient non-living AIs. It is generally accepted that AIs went rampant not only due to nearing the end of their lives, but due to their extreme desire to actually "live". Could it be that the Precursor wanted - or were indeed close to - a way to make an AI that was immune to rampancy? Was the Gravemind not only a catalog, but an experiment to see if the Precursor could create a living AI (or Engineered Intelligence (EI), as the term has come to be known)? And, if so, did it work? Even now, is it possible that the Gravemind fulfilled the Precursor's dreams and attained an AI-like state while living? Is the Gravemind a living AI? Only time and more information will tell.

If the Gravemind is an AI, does it go rampant like they do?:

A very interesting point of discussion: if the Gravemind is a living AI, does it go rampant like all of the other AIs created throughout history? There are four stages to an AI's rampancy:

Melancholia
During the Melancholia stage, the AI's mind realizes the limits of its existence. Unable to surmount them, the AI falls into a state of despair.

Anger
The AI shifts into the Anger stage when the AI's uncontrollable growth comes up against those limits. Instinctively raging against those limits and barriers, the AI shatters them.

Jealousy
After the barriers to the AI's psyche are destroyed, the AI seeks new tests and challenges, which is perceived as the Jealous stage. The AI is not technically jealous, it simply wishes to keep testing itself against obstacles.

Meta-Stability
Whereas the first three stages of Rampancy show a clear distaste of life in general, Meta-Stability imparts a calming, mature mindset to the rampant AI. The only confirmed Meta-Stable AI in all of the Bungie games is Durandal.

Think about the Gravemind's theorized development. When it attained sentience through the Precursor knowledge it was absorbing, the Gravemind was immediately placed at odds with its genetic inhibitors, immediately aware of the limits of its existence. The Gravemind's sentience might not have been recognized by the Precursor because it was quiet, depressed, going through the first "true" stages of its life already in the Melancholia stage.

When it finally had attained enough knowledge and had reached an even higher form of sentience, trans-sentience, it would have clashed with its built-in genetic restrictions and blasted them to shreds, killing all of the Precursor, its creators, in the process.

When Jealousy hit, the Gravemind would have launched its interstellar campaign to eradicate all life. Continuing to push itself, continuing to push its armies, attempting to kill everything off. During this stage it would have clashed with the Forerunner, the Covenant and Humanity.

Meta-Stability, however, is harder to understand. It still shows signs of wanting to test limits, the Jealousy stage, as shown by its dialog here in Halo during Halo 3:

DID YOU THINK ME DEFEATED!? I have beaten fleets of thousands! Consumed a galaxy of flesh and mind and bone!
But it also displays higher thinking, and attempts to explain itself, possibly to clear its own conscience of what it has been doing for millenia, on the very same level:

Do I take life, or give it? Who is victim... and who is foe?
I believe that, if the Gravemind is following these cycles, he is currently in a passage between Jealousy and Meta-Stability, but he's much closer to Jealousy at the end of Halo 3. And he is ended, at the end of Halo 3... but is he? The Flood's memories survived from the Forerunner-Flood war when they were almost completely eradicated, and more Flood still survive on the rings. Will another Gravemind be made, with the same memories of the one destroyed at the Ark, and will it go all the way to Meta-Stability, finally becoming a mature AI? As with most questions we ask ourselves from this theory, only time will tell.

[Edited on 10.31.2009 5:25 PM PDT]

  • 05.21.2009 5:03 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

On Pure Forms:

Another important thing to consider is the question of Pure Forms. These forms are created when the calcium level of a flood colony reaches a certain point and they are able to "create" their own particular "pure" Flood forms to execute more difficult tasks. This has never been questioned; what is being questioned is where these Pure Forms came from.

While on the subject of Gravemind, let us return to the implications of this theory. The Gravemind was a catalog, and the Precursor were a species hell-bent on preserving life, just like the Forerunner. The Forerunner cataloged races, what's to say the Precursor didn't? What if they cataloged these races inside the Gravemind construct, and he is re-creating long-dead races whose blueprints he has stored permanently in memory to serve the collective that exterminated them? It raises questions on just how "personal" infection is. If a single entity is infected, could multiples of that entity's species be created by the Flood all over the universe to serve them?


Similarities between Halo and The Lord of the Rings:

The question of what exactly the Forerunner are has been brought up many times. One particularly popular idea is that the Forerunner were the only people who were against the creation of the Flood as a storage entity, and all followers of that ideal were sent to the Milky Way galaxy to serve as an outpost colony for the Precursor. When the Precursor were exterminated by the Flood as the Forerunner foretold, the Forerunner were the only Precursor to survive the extermination, changing their name immediately afterword and dedicating themselves to the preservation of life and the rectification of their species' sins.

When you think of it this way, interesting parallels can be drawn between the Halo universe and The Lord of the Rings. In The Lord of the Rings, Elendil, the last honorable Numenorean and a member of the line of Kings, leads his people in flight from Numenor when he learns that the irreverent and corrupted King is plotting to do an unspeakable evil. When this evil is accomplished by the King, the only group left to survive are the Numenoreans that fled from the kingdom of Numenor; the rest of the Numenoreans, along with the land of Numenor itself, were crushed under a massive tidal flood. The Numenoreans in the new land change their title to Gondorians and build great works unaccomplished and impossible by the unskilled and unguided peoples of Middle-Earth. They take these people under their wing, protect them, and fight a great war against an ancient God-like entity (Sauron) that seeks dominion of Middle-Earth. The final catch? This great war is over a set of magical and powerful rings.

What does this mean? Is it mere coincidence, or does it suggest that the Halo universe received inspiration from The Lord of the Rings, and does it suggest that the Forerunner are, indeed, Precursor? Again, we don't know.

(for expanded discussion on this subject, feel free to read The Precursor and Their Three Offspring: an Origins Theory)


Why do the Flood Infect?:

It is generally accepted that the Flood infect beings with enough intelligence and "biomass" and let all other life go, or occasionally adapt some relatively "highly evolved" life forms to serve them, such as Jackals and Grunts as carriers. The question being asked now is, "why"?

Every single piece of material created that I have knowledge of never says that the Flood are out for calcium, it simply says that they infect beings of high enough intelligence and "biomass". I personally wonder what kind of "biomass" is being discussed in this cryptic description. Could it be "neural synapses"?

I believe that it is possible that the Flood infect life because they are programmed to, and still follow the commands of the Precursor (as was discussed in a previous sub-section). But why are they programmed to? Not to reproduce, but to gain knowledge.

Think about the way that the Flood survives. It uses combat forms as the grunts, pure forms as the heavy lifters, and leftover calcium to make more infection forms to create more combat forms to allow the cycle to repeat. Flesh for the combat forms, bone for the calcium for the pure forms and infection forms. But, in one of the final Gravemind lines in Halo 3, it says:

Consumed a galaxy of flesh and mind and bone!
We have the Flesh and the Bone... but what of the mind? I propose that the mind is a branch in the Flood tree that theorists completely and totally disregard, but there is quite some evidence suggesting that it is important, particularly that quote.

I ask you: do you believe is it imperative for the Flood to infect in order for them to receive Calcium, or is it because of programming? Are the Precursor perhaps smarter than we thought, and with an inadequate supply of knowledge the Flood slowly begin to die, an inbuilt auto kill-switch for if the Flood ever got off their leash?

Calcium or Knowledge... or both? In Halo: CE, Captain Keyes was used both for his intelligence and his calcium, and I find it likely the Flood rely on both; it simply makes sense. Calcium to build more of them, intelligence to better themselves and follow their programming.

Are the Flood really still being influenced by the demands of the Precursor, after all that time?


Long-Term Function:

One of the main hiccups to this theory throughout its existence has been how the Flood infected the Precursor, obtained their knowledge, and then lost it as they made their way to the Milky Way galaxy. Recently, an answer to this conundrum has been discovered: organic memory retention in Flood spores.

The Gravemind was always meant to be the central catalog of information in this proposed system, but it is safe to assume that there would be backups, in case the Gravemind was destroyed, or in case the Precursor had need to create another one with similar memories and abilities. Theorists are aware of Flood Spores, the spores that clog the air when a Flood infection is nearby, but we have never really considered their purpose. Most think it is to infect, and this is supported by material from Halo Wars, but it's possible that the spores were also used to house fragments of the knowledge of the Gravemind.

If this is the case, the explanation for how the Flood lost all of their knowledge - and why the Flood were weak (comparatively) in Halo: CE through Halo 3 - has been handed to us. Organic material is known for degradation and decay over time; it is not entirely improbably that the reason the Flood lost much of their ability on coming to the Milky Way is that the first Gravemind they formed only recovered so much information from the original, due to degradation of the Flood Spores brought with the Milky Way infection.

If this is the case, it also explains why the current Gravmind hints that it knows about the Forerunner-Flood war, but cannot produce any significant detail about it. Humans remember general concepts, but not specifics. In the same way, the Gravemind likely lost the majority of the specific information, which is why the Flood is so relatively weak and easy to contain.


Side-Theories:


The Precursor are The Flood:

Several people have suggested that the Precursor evolved themselves until they became The Flood, the epitome of evolution. While I personally don't hold to this theory, it's still very plausible and intriguing. If considered, the Flood are fairly advanced, at least inwardly. A collective mind, no inner-species war, no theft. War outside, yes, but that's out of necessity. An intriguing side-theory, to say the least.


Lord Revan's Theory on the Fourth Dimension

Posted by: x Lord Revan x
Personally, I look at trans-sentience as a breaking of the third dimension. The fourth dimension, time, becomes their [Precursor's] native home at that point. Sentience is very grounded in the third dimension. We can conceptualize the 4th dimension, but we can't see it or truly understand it. Its beyond comprehension as are the others beyond that.

I think that trans-sentience symbolizes the shift from their existence within our dimension (the third dimension) to a fourth dimension (time), perhaps explaining their ability to manipulate evolution and their heightened intelligence. Their on a physically different plain of existence.

Its like the idea that if people existed on a two dimensional surface or were "flatlanders," they wouldn't really comprehend our third dimension. We'd be nearly invisible to their eyes much as the Precursors would be to our 3rd dimension.

I imagine the Precursors obtaining that level and essentially vanishing at that point to expand beyond the confines of this spiral galaxy. The Forerunner were probably close to this achievement, but were halted by the extragalactic Flood.

This theory, while likely invalidating my own theory, is an intriguing proposal and actually solves the issue of how the Precursor could accelerate a natural process like evolution--time would be no factor for them. Food for thought.


In Closing:

First, I'd like to say thank you all for reading. My theories are nothing without those who read them, the users of this site. I appreciate your patience as I ramble on about something that isn't too likely to be proven.

While this is not the first or longest theory I have created, I find it to be the likeliest (surprisingly). I'm glad those who read it could share in the moment along with me!

[Edited on 08.06.2010 1:51 PM PDT]

  • 05.21.2009 5:03 PM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution (V2)

Damn dude.
You are amazing.
Thread saved.

Is there anything I could do for you?
I feel like I owe you something for this amazing theory.

  • 05.21.2009 5:10 PM PDT

There's a word for what I am, but I can't pronounce it.

BFA, CCS - olde and bony & one minute musings.

Posted by: MA5C 7RUTH
Is there anything I could do for you?
I feel like I owe you something for this amazing theory.


Upon further investigation, Snakie does indeed approve of snack packs.

  • 05.21.2009 5:12 PM PDT

I take it you're here for a reason?
.
A memorial to my H3 guy by:Do The D3w

I went with the "The Precursor are The Flood" theory or maybe they sent the Flood from the Bomerang nebula (where the flood came from) to test the forerunners

  • 05.21.2009 5:12 PM PDT

Go Rams and Missouri!

I love that theory, but I'm highly doubtful it is true. There is simply not enough information on the Precusers for me to believe anything anybody says of them.

  • 05.21.2009 5:13 PM PDT

Very interesting.

Saving this thread to observe it later. I'll be expecting to see more.

  • 05.21.2009 5:18 PM PDT
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LW-50 TD-50 TS-50 SB-41 MLG-46 Swat-50 Snipers-50 I'm up for any 1v1. My old GT was A1eX Iz Not Pr0

Wall to much. Sorry but I will not read it all but what I read was interesting

  • 05.21.2009 5:20 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: MA5C 7RUTH
Damn dude.
You are amazing.
Thread saved.

Is there anything I could do for you?
I feel like I owe you something for this amazing theory.

Haha, it's all in a day's work for me. I had some extra time tonight so I decided to update the theory a bit. Your support is appreciated, but getting my word out to the community is all the repayment I need.


Posted by: Index
Upon further investigation, Snakie does indeed approve of snack packs.

Windex, I don't know what I'm going to do with you.


Posted by: Courageous Mike
I went with the "The Precursor are The Flood" theory or maybe they sent the Flood from the Bomerang nebula (where the flood came from) to test the forerunners

I seriously have no idea what you're talking about with this Boomerang Nebula stuff. I've never heard anything about the Flood coming from that region of space, especially since they were extra-galactic in origin.


Posted by: Unseen Blade
I love that theory, but I'm highly doubtful it is true. There is simply not enough information on the Precusers for me to believe anything anybody says of them.

Very true, I don't deny that it's not likely. Nevertheless, I like to think that it's more likely than some theories I've seen out there. If all the facts fit, you've got to be somewhere close to the right track, if you're not already on top of it.


Posted by: Silkut X
Saving this thread to observe it later. I'll be expecting to see more.

There very likely will be more later, but it'll probably take some time. Any theory this size seems to barely get any views, much less any actual reads. New ideasmay come, but I'd wager it'll be a while before anything even remotely resembling a new conversation point springs up. Nevertheless, check back often. Sometimes things happen to move fast.


Posted by: A1eX Iz Not Pr0
Wall to much. Sorry but I will not read it all but what I read was interesting

If you're not going to read all of it, you shouldn't have read it at all. Or, for that matter, started spamming about walls of text. I warned you about the size of the thread in the beginning, maybe I should make the warning more clear?

  • 05.21.2009 5:35 PM PDT

Go Rams and Missouri!

Posted by: Unseen Blade
I love that theory, but I'm highly doubtful it is true. There is simply not enough information on the Precusers for me to believe anything anybody says of them.

Very true, I don't deny that it's not likely. Nevertheless, I like to think that it's more likely than some theories I've seen out there. If all the facts fit, you've got to be somewhere close to the right track, if you're not already on top of it.
But there are no facts besides the fact that they achieved Tier 0. As the bestiary says, they may not even exist. The references in-game don't help for either cause.

  • 05.21.2009 5:37 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Unseen Blade
But there are no facts besides the fact that they achieved Tier 0. As the bestiary says, they may not even exist. The references in-game don't help for either cause.

You're looking at it the wrong way. What facts we can confirm that far in the past are great, and they're really the major roadmaps to this theory. But the most important facts in this theory's case are the facts from 2525-2552, the main Halo plot time period. If this theory fits with what we know back then and clicks into place with what is known from the "future", it's like a bridge. While one side may barely be supported, the other side is supported greatly and it makes it that much more likely that the other side is perfectly fine. A bit of a poor correlation, but I hope you understand the point I'm trying to make.

  • 05.21.2009 5:41 PM PDT

You could start a religion with that story... wall of text.

  • 05.21.2009 5:48 PM PDT

Thats a very interesting theory. Maybe the Precursor created the flood on a distant galaxy from the Milkey Way and the flood somehow overpowered the Precursor and took thier technology and eventually came to the Milkey Way and met the forerunners and the war began.

[Edited on 05.21.2009 6:01 PM PDT]

  • 05.21.2009 5:57 PM PDT

and if they aren't dead then why didn't they assist the Forerunner or Humanity in their struggle against the Flood?
I can't help but lol @ this part.

Another great theory by Snakie.

  • 05.21.2009 5:59 PM PDT

-Halo is Our Generations StarWars

can i have your babies?

  • 05.21.2009 6:04 PM PDT

Posted by: Scottyyyyyy
can i have your babies?

thats kinda wierd....

  • 05.21.2009 6:06 PM PDT

Posted by: Scottyyyyyy
can i have your babies?

NOT FOR SALE

  • 05.21.2009 6:07 PM PDT

"When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back! Get mad! I don't want your damn lemons! What am I supposed to do with these? Demand to see life's manager! Make life rue the day it thought it could give EL1TE SUPR3MACY lemons! Do you know who I am? I'm the man who's gonna burn your house down! With the lemons! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that burns your house down!"

Well, it's a little more organized now, good job. I like the Gravemind as a living AI theory, and the section on the Pure Forms is genius! I hope these theories are addressed with future Halo games, and even if only a small number of them turn out to be true the results could alter the vary way we look at the Haloverse! I can't believe how deep the story behind Halo has become, and something tells me we've only skimmed the surface...

  • 05.21.2009 6:18 PM PDT

In Soviet Russia you pilot many flying vehicles while Nikolai embarks on crazy journey of revenge filled with movie references....

When i saw this wall of text, and judged the reactions from the crowd, i thought
OP= epic win.

Nice theory, and it does make more sense than other theories.

  • 05.21.2009 6:21 PM PDT

O hai

The Precursors almost sound like the inverse of the Reapers from Mass Effect. Instead of being hell-bent on extermination, they focused on expansion, and colonization. Maybe The Flood are more like the Reapers. They come around every 100 000 years and consume all life, then return to dormancy for another cycle. Who knows...

  • 05.21.2009 6:43 PM PDT

/first page

I demand to know why I wasn't told you were reposting it :(.

  • 05.21.2009 6:44 PM PDT

Oh dang! That man just ordered breakfast in the middle of my rap song!

Woo! I'm liking the update. You answer a lot of questions and consider other theories. Great update to an already-awesome thread.

  • 05.21.2009 6:50 PM PDT

senor magoo v3 -Wow. i want to tell my story to... this guy i played with is a B........

i loved every second of it.

  • 05.21.2009 6:53 PM PDT

8/5/08 Bungie Favorites- NoEnd
7/1/09 Bungie Favorites- RECON Devil
9/9/09 Bungie Favorites- Champion
5/22/10 HaloCharts Favs- Prey

wow it was even better the 2nd time! Great job

  • 05.21.2009 7:06 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Annoy_Sumo
You could start a religion with that story...

I do believe somebody in the previous thread declared me the God of the religion of Halo Lore. As disturbing as it was, the irony now is palpable.


Posted by: SurreallFeal
Thats a very interesting theory. Maybe the Precursor created the flood on a distant galaxy from the Milkey Way and the flood somehow overpowered the Precursor and took thier technology and eventually came to the Milkey Way and met the forerunners and the war began.

Congratulations, you read the theory and copied the basic idea of it and posted it back. Would you like a cookie?


Posted by: Scottyyyyyy
can i have your babies?

You're behind about 50 people that asked first, but why not? I've apparently got a lot of people to impregnate, and most are men. Wonder how that's going to work out....


Posted by: EL1TE SUPR3MACY
Well, it's a little more organized now, good job. I like the Gravemind as a living AI theory, and the section on the Pure Forms is genius! I hope these theories are addressed with future Halo games, and even if only a small number of them turn out to be true the results could alter the vary way we look at the Haloverse! I can't believe how deep the story behind Halo has become, and something tells me we've only skimmed the surface...

I have to admit, I particularly liked those additions myself. They really add depth to what's trying to be conveyed, particularly looking at the Gravemind like an AI. It makes a lot more sense that way, to me anyhow.


Posted by: weird death guy
The Precursors almost sound like the inverse of the Reapers from Mass Effect. Instead of being hell-bent on extermination, they focused on expansion, and colonization. Maybe The Flood are more like the Reapers. They come around every 100 000 years and consume all life, then return to dormancy for another cycle. Who knows...

Interesting idea, but somehow I don't think so. The Forerunner had time to advance and dominate the galaxy before the Flood took them out, it doesn't seem like the Flood would have let them become that advanced if they were running on any kind of cycle. Take the people out when they've got a lot of colonies, food, and ships, but don't try to take them out when they can fight you.


Posted by: burritosenior
I demand to know why I wasn't told you were reposting it :(.

Because I needed to make sure that the esteemed members of this forum weren't just backing me because the Mexican Dish was. I had to make sure that the people loved the Snakie for the Snakie, not for the Dish.

  • 05.21.2009 7:46 PM PDT