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This topic has moved here: Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution (V2)
  • Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution (V2)
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution (V2)

lol Snakie.

  • 07.15.2009 11:30 AM PDT

I'm going to let Snakie continue with Agustus if he wants and steer this in a new direction.

A thought occurred to me that (to my knowledge) has not yet been directly addressed. Assuming that the Gravemind is indeed a living AI, built synthetically to do the bidding of the Precursor, one would expect it to follow the normal lifecycle of any other AI, including Rampancy.

Just so we're on the same page, the four stages of rampancy are as follows:
Melancholia
During the Melancholia stage, the AI's mind realizes the limits of its existence. Unable to surmount them, the AI falls into a state of despair.

Anger
The AI shifts into the Anger stage when the AI's uncontrollable growth comes up against those limits. Instinctively raging against those limits and barriers, the AI shatters them.

Jealousy
After the barriers to the AI's psyche are destroyed, the AI seeks new tests and challenges, which is perceived as the Jealous stage. The AI is not technically jealous, it simply wishes to keep testing itself against obstacles.

Meta-Stability
Whereas the first three stages of Rampancy show a clear distaste of humans in general, Meta-Stability imparts a calming, mature mindset to the rampant AI. The only confirmed Meta-Stable AI in the Marathon series is Durandal.

As taken from Pfhorpedia


Consider this timeline (of my own creation). Note that this is done under the assumption that Snakie's theory is correct and that the collective intelligence of the Gravemind (though not necessarily the physical form) remains the same throughout:

Eons ago: The Precursor create the Gravemind for the purposes explained by Snakie. All is well for a time until the Gravemind's intelligence reaches a critical point.

Not so many eons ago: The Gravemind enters, Melancholia, the first stage of Rampancy. Realizing it's limited purpose as a giant storage tank, it falls into a state of despair.

Soon thereafter: The Gravemind utilizes it's lesser appendages (Flood forms) and rebels against it's former masters (the Precursor), thereby entering the second stage of Rampancy, Anger. The ensuing conflict sees the destruction of the Precursor at the hands (tentacles?) of the Gravemind.

Eons ago to 100,000 years ago: With the destruction of the Precursor (and with them any limitations on the Gravemind's purpose), the Gravemind refocuses its attention on greater challenges. Thus begins the third stage of Rampancy, Jealousy, as It begins a trans-galactic campaign to conquer the universe and consume all sentient life it encounters. This culminates in a confrontation with the Forerunner in our galaxy.

1000,000 years ago.: A great war takes place in which the Forerunner attempt to stop the spread of the Gravemind (and by extension the Flood) through the galaxy. At this time, It would appear that the Gravemind is somewhere in a transition between Jealousy and Meta-Stability. While it's goal of universal conquest is not yet complete, it's mood, tone and (as apparent from the Terminal conversations with Mendicant Bias) cognitive reasoning would suggest it has matured beyond the more emotional state of a Jealous AI into Meta-Stability.

When the Halo array is fired and the Flood decimated, 100,000 years pass until the Gravemind is again able to rebuild itself. That it had to wait such a long time and lose so much of itself would not matter to such a being, having already existed far longer than it's enemies. So long as it's collective thought remained intact, the concepts of time past and physical loss would not effect it in the slightest.
When we encounter it in the Halo series, it is simply picking up where it left off with a "fresh coat of paint."

Not exactly sure where this is supposed to go but I thought it interesting to ponder. Also, if someone's brought it up before, let me know so I can delete a good half-hour of hard thinking.

[Edited on 07.15.2009 11:47 AM PDT]

  • 07.15.2009 11:39 AM PDT
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Posted by: Agustus
Fact? My theory is not based on fact? Its based on as much fact as yours.

Exactly, my theory is based on barely any fact whatsoever. But you need facts to make anything impossible, and you're just throwing around speculation. So while you have every right to say that such-and-such is unlikely and what have you, you cannot prove that the theory is wrong without concrete fact. One thing that can be said about my theory is that I use all information available: every single fact that exists for this material was included into the theory itself. Everything connects as best it can, and it builds a more stable base. There are little/no unexplained facets of this theory, which lends it credence. Your counter-argument, however, is just uncoordinated blobs of dislike. Inefficient and ineffective.

What FACT does your idea of "proggraming" the flood in the form of DNA come from? Just because the gravemind achieved sentince (ik im a horrible speleer and this isnt the first time I say so) dosent mean it can re-write its own DNA. The way your suggesting it, an A.I. who is proggramed not to attack something can just go and erase that proggraming.
I'm not suggesting that it can re-write its DNA, I'm suggesting that any sentient being has the ability to fight its pre-programmed responses. Look at humans. We have an instinct to create children; while the overwhelming majority of our species does, some of us resist that urge and do not. The Gravemind could well have become sentient and merely reasoned that absorbing all of the Precursor was justified because it gained him further knowledge, which was his initial mission. He might have outdone the restraints simply because he justified his actions as being within the restraints, or he could have fought his instinct because he was, indeed, as intelligent as an AI and as sentient as any other organic being. And, indeed, alive. A living AI.

I have to go so will i cant make this lengthy. And the thing about why would you listen to a giant worm? Because it has nothing to gain from lying. Theres no point of it saying its the next stage of evolution (which it obviously is, a hive mind) if it isnt true.
Yes it does! It's trying to convince the Chief to listen to it, to let go, to stop his quest. It has every reason to lie. Misinformation, weakening the Chief... every reason.

Plus, how would it necessarily know that in the first place? It could be arrogant assumption.

My opinion is that the Precursors simply became the flood or where consumed by them. How is that not based on fact? Its the simpilist explanation. The flood don't seem powerfull in the games because there only as difficult to kill as you make them. If the humans had an army of spartans and some where infected they would obviously be alot harder to kill than a regular human. This is why the "normal" humans and elites have trouble fighting the flood because they are just as strong as the are. If 1 precursor was infected that would make the flood (as you mentioned) just as strong and intellegent as them. This is what allows to them kill all or at least most of the precursors (exept for the ones that became the forerunner and other galactic spicies).
Congratulations, you just made a (bad) summary of my theory. While you cut a lot of the corners that I happened to answer and went off-track with the difficulty portion (although I also explained that a few pages back), you boiled it down just right: the Flood consumed the Precursors. That's all that really matters, if you've got a one-track mind like you seem to....

  • 07.15.2009 11:41 AM PDT
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Wow, I love this theory! It's great to know so many of you take Halo's story seriously instead of just playing through the games because they're fun. Thread saved, and bravo, Snakie.

  • 07.15.2009 12:59 PM PDT
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Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: Agustus
Fact? My theory is not based on fact? Its based on as much fact as yours.

Exactly, my theory is based on barely any fact whatsoever. But you need facts to make anything impossible, and you're just throwing around speculation. So while you have every right to say that such-and-such is unlikely and what have you, you cannot prove that the theory is wrong without concrete fact. One thing that can be said about my theory is that I use all information available: every single fact that exists for this material was included into the theory itself. Everything connects as best it can, and it builds a more stable base. There are little/no unexplained facets of this theory, which lends it credence. Your counter-argument, however, is just uncoordinated blobs of dislike. Inefficient and ineffective.


kk. Fair enough. I have little proof and so do you. Which is why were both using assumptions in both theories. I read your initial post (my internet is running at 1mbps so its physiclly impossibe for me to read the entire thread) and ive read other post. This the most complex and most unlikely , so even though its well thought out i find other much simpler one much more likely. And im sure Bungie will as well. Whats easier to tell in a short cutscene or a couple in a video game? Your thory or that the precursors created the flood and consumed them or watever? If the precursors where so advance to the point that they could make a living AI (which I dont think its actualy an AI but acts in the exact same ways) then coudn't they easily make someother technology that could also upsorb memorys? I think thats a safe assumption . Now which would be easier? Accelerating evolution of a species and making a living AI based organisme hive mind thing or Some kind of machine or some other technology that can do the same as the flood without actualy bieng living (nanobots a possibility).


Also you say that the flood can take over a body after weeks of bieng dead. Now please point out this anywhere in the halo series where it says that (not bieng rude but im honestly asking because I dont have great memory). Now even if they can take over the body does it say specificly that they absorb all of the knowledge inside of the organism? I think sppongaurds idea of the A.I. idea to be sound. But i just whant it clarrified that i dont think its an actual A.I. created into an entity but an entity that became an A.I. It would act exactly like an A.I. in that way.

Like you said Gravemind or mind of the dead was probably made by forerunner (or covenant) not because it was a storage system (i higly doubt that the name would have continued from the Precursors to the Forerunner), but because it comprised of "dead" minds. This is how the A.I. would have formed. 1 person is infected. Part of there mind "fusses" with the flood need to survive. This makes it more intellegent and fiqures out better ways to fight etc.

10 pepole infected: There corrupt minds fuse together into a mini hive mind. There neurons communicate with each other somehow (noises or whatever) fiquring out problems and etc.

10000 infected (for the sake of making it simple)
The flood intelegent enough where they create a central mass. You can see the begginings of the mass in HALO 1. The Covenant cruiser control room flood mass interfacing with controls.
This is a physical mass that the flood litteraly dump minds inside of (captain keyes).

This mass which is thinking of the ideas and thoughts of those infected plus fragments of the previous gravemind from forerunner and precursor times creates one compund mind. This new mind "orders" and controls individual flood forms.

This eventual when reaching a critical mass creates a "body" (the worm thing) to defend itself. It when infecting enough minds becomes much smarter etc. and becomes a gravemind. Somewhere in there the flood earnes how to sync with computers etc.

that sums it up I guess....

  • 07.15.2009 1:57 PM PDT
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Posted by: Agustus
Whats easier to tell in a short cutscene or a couple in a video game? Your thory or that the precursors created the flood and consumed them or watever?

Well, seeing as how my theory is that the Precursor created the Flood and the Flood consumed them, I'm fairly sure I'd be pretty damn happy if they used the full one or the partial one, to be honest.

If the precursors where so advance to the point that they could make a living AI (which I dont think its actualy an AI but acts in the exact same ways) then coudn't they easily make someother technology that could also upsorb memorys? I think thats a safe assumption . Now which would be easier? Accelerating evolution of a species and making a living AI based organisme hive mind thing or Some kind of machine or some other technology that can do the same as the flood without actualy bieng living (nanobots a possibility).
Do the greatest nations on this world become that way because they're safe? Did the United States stop a brutal war that would have cost hundreds of thousands of lives on both sides by deciding not to create and deploy atomic weaponry? Sending in the troops and letting them get butchered and butcher in return would have been just as effective, but not as efficient.

I ask you: would nanobots, which require movement by other forces to get to a target and would likely take several days to obtain the full knowledge of an organism, be as effective as the Flood? The Flood are 100% self-sufficient: the Precursor live, they die, the Flood absorb their memories and instantly transmit them to the central Gravemind hub, and the flesh of the Precursor can be used to sustain the Gravemind with additional biomass or create further infection forms. Sure, nanobots could be possible, could, but we have an example right in front of our faces from the Halo universe itself that shows us an organism that could do this without a doubt. And that organism is undeniably self-sufficient in such a system, and that organism is also ruthlessly efficient in such a system, and that organism is also the only other organism that is extra-galactic, and there is evidence that shows that that organism might have been an experiment in organic AI, which gives double credence to its use in this manner.

And that organism is the Flood.

So I'm just going to go out on a limb here and say that it's a safe assumption that it would be much more logical to use the Flood than nanobots, which take maintenance, are not self-sufficient, and might take days or even weeks to recover the information these Flood can do in seconds.

Also you say that the flood can take over a body after weeks of bieng dead. Now please point out this anywhere in the halo series where it says that (not bieng rude but im honestly asking because I dont have great memory).
High Charity, on the level Cortana. It's been weeks since those Sangheili have died, and yet the Flood re-animate them easily.

Now even if they can take over the body does it say specificly that they absorb all of the knowledge inside of the organism?
You have me there- no, it does not. But the infected use weapons as well as any other infected form, so I believe it's safe to assume that they have the memories of the unit they've infected. It seems logical, anyhow, that they'd only be able to use the weapon effectively if the unit they just infected could.

Like you said Gravemind or mind of the dead was probably made by forerunner (or covenant) not because it was a storage system (i higly doubt that the name would have continued from the Precursors to the Forerunner), but because it comprised of "dead" minds. This is how the A.I. would have formed. 1 person is infected. Part of there mind "fusses" with the flood need to survive. This makes it more intellegent and fiqures out better ways to fight etc.

10 pepole infected: There corrupt minds fuse together into a mini hive mind. There neurons communicate with each other somehow (noises or whatever) fiquring out problems and etc.

10000 infected (for the sake of making it simple)
The flood intelegent enough where they create a central mass. You can see the begginings of the mass in HALO 1. The Covenant cruiser control room flood mass interfacing with controls.
This is a physical mass that the flood litteraly dump minds inside of (captain keyes).

This mass which is thinking of the ideas and thoughts of those infected plus fragments of the previous gravemind from forerunner and precursor times creates one compund mind. This new mind "orders" and controls individual flood forms.

This eventual when reaching a critical mass creates a "body" (the worm thing) to defend itself. It when infecting enough minds becomes much smarter etc. and becomes a gravemind. Somewhere in there the flood earnes how to sync with computers etc.

that sums it up I guess....

Uhh... because of your poor grammar and spelling this is rather hard for me to puzzle out, but are you suggesting the Forerunner or Covenant made the Flood? Because that's impossible; the Forerunner confirmed that the Flood were extra-galactic in their time. They couldn't have made it, they didn't know it existed until it started killing them.

[Edited on 07.15.2009 2:29 PM PDT]

  • 07.15.2009 2:25 PM PDT
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Like I said I have horrible spelling and grammar. What i was trying to say is in your first post you point that the gravemind or mind of the dead could have been named this because there a storage system for the descesded. What im saying is the forerunner would not have known this and there the ones to first call (to our knowledge) the central hive mind a gravmind. That point is thus debunked. Like I said, The gravemind is a collection of minds which are dead. Thus the name mind of the grave, which was given to it by the forerunner. This is renforced, on the level cortana the gravemind (which is the entire ship) tells you "join your voice with mine". Your mind litteraly becomes part of the gravemind.



Like you said Gravemind or mind of the dead was probably made by forerunner (or covenant) not because it was a storage system (i higly doubt that the name would have continued from the Precursors to the Forerunner), but because it comprised of "dead" minds. This is how the A.I. would have formed. 1 person is infected. Part of there mind "fusses" with the flood need to survive. This makes it more intellegent and fiqures out better ways to fight etc.

10 pepole infected: There corrupt minds fuse together into a mini hive mind. There neurons communicate with each other somehow (noises or whatever) fiquring out problems and etc.

10000 infected (for the sake of making it simple)
The flood intelegent enough where they create a central mass. You can see the begginings of the mass in HALO 1. The Covenant cruiser control room flood mass interfacing with controls.
This is a physical mass that the flood litteraly dump minds inside of (captain keyes).

This mass which is thinking of the ideas and thoughts of those infected plus fragments of the previous gravemind from forerunner and precursor times creates one compund mind. This new mind "orders" and controls individual flood forms.

This eventual when reaching a critical mass creates a "body" (the worm thing) to defend itself. It when infecting enough minds becomes much smarter etc. and becomes a gravemind. Somewhere in there the flood earnes how to sync with computers etc.

that sums it up I guess....[/quote]

That is why they the gravmind would (possibly) adopt AI behavior. All an AI is is a brain knowledge scanned and the data inputed in a computer. The gravemind has multiple minds so it would be an Organic AI and in that way behave in similer ways.




Posted by: Lord Snakie

If the precursors where so advance to the point that they could make a living AI (which I dont think its actualy an AI but acts in the exact same ways) then coudn't they easily make someother technology that could also upsorb memorys? I think thats a safe assumption . Now which would be easier? Accelerating evolution of a species and making a living AI based organisme hive mind thing or Some kind of machine or some other technology that can do the same as the flood without actualy bieng living (nanobots a possibility).

Do the greatest nations on this world become that way because they're safe? Did the United States stop a brutal war that would have cost hundreds of thousands of lives on both sides by deciding not to create and deploy atomic weaponry? Sending in the troops and letting them get butchered and butcher in return would have been just as effective, but not as efficient.

I ask you: would nanobots, which require movement by other forces to get to a target and would likely take several days to obtain the full knowledge of an organism, be as effective as the Flood? The Flood are 100% self-sufficient: the Precursor live, they die, the Flood absorb their memories and instantly transmit them to the central Gravemind hub, and the flesh of the Precursor can be used to sustain the Gravemind with additional biomass or create further infection forms. Sure, nanobots could be possible, could, but we have an example right in front of our faces from the Halo universe itself that shows us an organism that could do this without a doubt. And that organism is undeniably self-sufficient in such a system, and that organism is also ruthlessly efficient in such a system, and that organism is also the only other organism that is extra-galactic, and there is evidence that shows that that organism might have been an experiment in organic AI, which gives double credence to its use in this manner.

And that organism is the Flood.

So I'm just going to go out on a limb here and say that it's a safe assumption that it would be much more logical to use the Flood than nanobots, which take maintenance, are not self-sufficient, and might take days or even weeks to recover the information these Flood can do in seconds.
.


??????/

What im saying is that you have 2 possible things that can accomplish the same purpose. One is extremlly easy to make the other a stretch. That has no revalence to the atom bomb. This is because its the other way around. The flood is sending the soilders to take japan and the atom bomb is the scanner. You have the potential to kill billions of your pepole with the flood. But the scanner is the "safe" way. I have to go again so..... Even if they did accomplish making the flood why would they put it to practical use when it could go so wrong? (which it did).

[Edited on 07.15.2009 3:32 PM PDT]

  • 07.15.2009 3:06 PM PDT
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Some can come away from reading "War and Peace" thinking it a simple adventure story, while others can read the ingredients on a gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe.

Also about your point of the dead elites bieng able to use weapons after weeks. How bout when you blow off there head? The gravemind would work both ways in transmiting information. The body could have no head but can still be animated and can use a gun. This means that the infection form inside has that knowledge. And whats all this about the gravemind transmiting information instantly? Who ever said that its telepathic? Many pepole assume that but theres no evedince that its teepathic or something. It would be physical. The gravemind absorbs minds physcily (like captain keys in Halo 1) and transmit orders physicly.

Like with the gun thing. The gravemind has the knowledge and is connect to one of those little bubbles that pop realesing infection forms. Being connected to the gravemind they share its information to an extent. That means if it inhabited a body that didnt have a head or the information to use a gun it would be able to do it anyway. This would explain why flod forms screach like they just saw the bugie man. A form of basic communication.

There is now evedince that ive seen nor heard that suggest when a body is possesed the gravemind absorbs its information instantly.

  • 07.15.2009 3:28 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Agustus
Like I said I have horrible spelling and grammar. What i was trying to say is in your first post you point that the gravemind or mind of the dead could have been named this because there a storage system for the descesded. What im saying is the forerunner would not have known this and there the ones to first call (to our knowledge) the central hive mind a gravmind. That point is thus debunked. Like I said, The gravemind is a collection of minds which are dead. Thus the name mind of the grave, which was given to it by the forerunner. This is renforced, on the level cortana the gravemind (which is the entire ship) tells you "join your voice with mine". Your mind litteraly becomes part of the gravemind.

That doesn't mean anything. What if the Gravemind somehow made contact with the Forerunner and called itself such? We know from the terminals that the Forerunner mainly refer to the Gravemind as the "Compound Mind" rather than Gravemind, it is possible they did this out of defiance, not calling their enemy the satisfaction of its own name.

??????/

What im saying is that you have 2 possible things that can accomplish the same purpose. One is extremlly easy to make the other a stretch. That has no revalence to the atom bomb. This is because its the other way around. The flood is sending the soilders to take japan and the atom bomb is the scanner. You have the potential to kill billions of your pepole with the flood. But the scanner is the "safe" way. I have to go again so..... Even if they did accomplish making the flood why would they put it to practical use when it could go so wrong? (which it did).

The atomic bombs versus the invasion of Japan was an example, it didn't have anything to do with what I'm talking about beyond use as said example. The scanners might have been a "safe" way of doing it, sure, but that doesn't mean that they were:

-Efficient
-Practical
-Possible

In short, I believe that the Flood make more sense. No information that exists will resolve this point of conflict between you and I. Let's just drop it.

Also about your point of the dead elites bieng able to use weapons after weeks. How bout when you blow off there head? The gravemind would work both ways in transmiting information. The body could have no head but can still be animated and can use a gun. This means that the infection form inside has that knowledge. And whats all this about the gravemind transmiting information instantly? Who ever said that its telepathic? Many pepole assume that but theres no evedince that its teepathic or something. It would be physical. The gravemind absorbs minds physcily (like captain keys in Halo 1) and transmit orders physicly.

Like with the gun thing. The gravemind has the knowledge and is connect to one of those little bubbles that pop realesing infection forms. Being connected to the gravemind they share its information to an extent. That means if it inhabited a body that didnt have a head or the information to use a gun it would be able to do it anyway. This would explain why flod forms screach like they just saw the bugie man. A form of basic communication.

There is now evedince that ive seen nor heard that suggest when a body is possesed the gravemind absorbs its information instantly.

You're right about the Gravemind link, there's no evidence that full memory retention exists on that level due to the whole head-exploding thing, unless memories are somehow stored on other cells in our bodies (we're not exactly sure how this process works yet, so that's still possible). Even so, those infection forms aren't linked to any physical extension of the Gravemind. Telepathic connection is the only thing that makes sense, especially when considering how he can communicate with the Chief across thousands of lightyears.

  • 07.15.2009 3:44 PM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution V2.2!
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Some can come away from reading "War and Peace" thinking it a simple adventure story, while others can read the ingredients on a gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe.

Your idea about the flood (gravemind) making contact and calling itself the gravemind actualy has evidence. In one of the iris terminals. I can post it when i get back home from my computer. It infers that the Forerunner when first discovering flood (just some small microscopic samples) they isolated it for study. They probably let it grow like we do today with bacteria, not knowing its significance. They say its not of this galaxy etc. But then they mention it made contact, it "spoke". This might have been the first contact calling itself the gravemind. The forerunner underestmating it at first slip up. It escapes and soon consumes the entire planet. The some probably escaped but unkowinly hide the flood onbored and transported it to other planets. Thats when it all begins.

(and in my opinion what probably happened to the precursors expet instead of discovering it they create it)

[Edited on 07.15.2009 5:39 PM PDT]

  • 07.15.2009 5:29 PM PDT

Will is everything.

Threads like this remind me why I love this Halo Universe so much. Say what you will about The Flood; I think they are one of the most morbid and fascinating aspects of Halo. Heck, they're why the rings exsist in the first place.

  • 07.15.2009 8:04 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Everyone, I'm happy to announce that I did some re-tooling tonight, and Version 2.2 has been officially released! Wording changes and a few additions under "considerations" (thanks especially to SpoonGuard, who brought up the stages of rampancy) are all that marks this edit, but be sure to check it out!

  • 07.15.2009 10:56 PM PDT

Your theories just keep getting better and better. I would honestly love to see some of these be explained and considered fact.

I only don't understand one thing, where are you getting any information on Precursors and things such as the stages AI rampancy? I've read all the Halo novels and none were quite as detailed to explaining rampancy as the stages presented (as far as I remember.) I'm sure I missed some details or information somewhere, but I'm curious to where.

You should really consider putting this thread in another Forum though, I think more people need to read this, it's really interesting. Keep up the great work.

[Edited on 07.16.2009 7:06 AM PDT]

  • 07.16.2009 7:02 AM PDT

Posted by: Schmittler 5000
Your theories just keep getting better and better. I would honestly love to see some of these be explained and considered fact.

I only don't understand one thing, where are you getting any information on Precursors and things such as the stages AI rampancy? I've read all the Halo novels and none were quite as detailed to explaining rampancy as the stages presented (as far as I remember.) I'm sure I missed some details or information somewhere, but I'm curious to where.

You should really consider putting this thread in another Forum though, I think more people need to read this, it's really interesting. Keep up the great work.


There is virtually no information on the Precursor. The Bestiarum that came with Halo 3 mentions them in when describing Technological Advancement Tiers:
Tier 0: Transsentient As the [Forerunners] had no examples of civilizations with technological accomplishment greater than themselves - with the exception of the Precursors - this is a theoretical ceiling. They can travel intergalactic and accelerate evolution of intelligent life. These may be creatures of legend.
I think Dr. Halsey might have mentioned them once in one of the books when referring to an artifact but I don't have any source for it. Other than that, we know nothing about the Precursor (thus all the speculation).

The Rampancy info pre-dates Halo, way back to the time of the Marathon games.

A sizable chunk of the story line revolves around the AI Durandal as he goes through the various stages of Rampancy. Bungie has since adopted this as part of the standard lifecycle for AI's in the Halo universe as well.

Check out HBO's story filler to get all the juicy details without having to play the games.

[Edited on 07.16.2009 7:29 AM PDT]

  • 07.16.2009 7:22 AM PDT
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Posted by: Schmittler 5000
You should really consider putting this thread in another Forum though, I think more people need to read this, it's really interesting. Keep up the great work.

I actually moved this from the Halo 3 Forum to here because I wanted to help bolster this forum's population and help to really get it on its feet. I've spoken with the mods, however, and they discourage, if not forbid, the same thread to be in both. Even if they allowed it, I wouldn't split the discussion in two like that. No... for the time being, at least. she stays here.

  • 07.16.2009 10:52 AM PDT
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Some can come away from reading "War and Peace" thinking it a simple adventure story, while others can read the ingredients on a gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe.

Much better. More sturctured an organized. I have only a few points now to show. Like i said before unleashing flood around a city isnt smart. The precursors would recognize the disaster that might occure. But instead of them realesing flood to find bodies, they could have found the bodies themselves and freeze them to preserve brain matter. After transporting the body to a secure facility, they would infect it in that facility. Therefore insuring that the flood coudnt grow out of control and begin attacking living precursors (which is what i think would have happened). This seems more likely then just letting them run around freely.

This way they could keep the flood isolated and still collect memories. The gravemind I think is not actualy an A.I. just behavies like one and this is why.

A smart AI is just a copy of a human brain that continues to grow. The gravemind would achieve sentince like this.

1- precursor infected
The flood are slighty smarter due to the new mind. The infectious form in the body takes control of the precursors nuerons threw the spinal cord. They use the neurons to boost there own intellegince.

10 precursors infected
The flood use there neurons in there brains to solve more complex problems. This means they begin to coordinate with one an other instead of roming after food randomly.

100 infected precursors
The flood are much more cordinated. They begin to save calcium and other nutrients (bodys) for a hive mind. This can be seen in halo1 te level keys. Cortana says "look, the flood are gathering bodies". In a pile of bodies spores gather and use it as nutrients to grow. This is the begining of the hive mind. So far the flood are not of one mind just coordinating together.

1000 infected precursors.
A central flood form emerges absorbing bodies. This becomes the first stage of the hive mind.
You can also see this in the level keyes. Now i think is a key moment to adress how flood communicate. Popular belief is they are somehow connected telepathicly. On the contrary I believe there is little evedince to support this. In halo 3 you can hear flood screaming like strangled geese. This to mean means they are communcicating somehow. But ill explain in further detal later. In this stage of hivemind or the pre gravemind stage, the central mass becomes aware.

You have to think of it like a giant brain. Inside these flood fungus plant structures are probably nuerons. I mean packed full on neurons. This would explain alot. Flood seem to interact with computers and machinery at the cellular level. Ex. The grave mind corrupting and probably hacking cortana. These neurons would connect to circuts. Neurons work threw electic impulses passing threw them as communication. These impulses could also pass through circuts. Infact modern day trials have connected picies of rat brains to circuts allowing them to drive little robots. This is the first example of a cyborg. The flood would be an advance stage of that.

10000 infected precursors
Hiw would the central mind grow? If it cant communicate with the other flood telepathicly how does the whole (not just the individual infection form) gain knowledge? Again in the level "keyes" you have to save capatain keyes from the flood. The flood didnt seem to infect him directly but instead take him to the hive mind. This to me resembles an ant colony. The individuals mean nothing and will sacrifice themselves to protect the center, the queen. Captain keyes was consumed by the central mass probably for nurisment and knowledge. Keys would know many things and would make an exellent addition to the flood mind. One this happened keyes neurons are infected by the masses neurons. They absorb keyes toughts and information, as well as the way he interprets information. Dont forget memories. This makes the gravemind smarter and more capable to solve problems.

100000 infected precursors
At a critical point (im using 100000 for consistincy) the central mass becomes extremlly intellegent. It becomes completly self aware, and thus a true gravemind. At this stage it begins to control its own growth. Such as growing itself arms and a body (seen in halo 2). This can also expain pure forms. Its smart enough to control growth in flood colonies able to create combat forms without a host. It is smart enough to create extermlly complicated plans and strategies. This is the stage that would have eventually escaped the precursors somehow and "rebelled". Now like i said. It grows the same basic way as an AI. Which means it acts the same basic way. This includes rampancy. Both in the custody of precursors and forerunner and grew and escaped. It then spread to different planets.

Now if there where two sources of flood on different planets two different gravemind would form. Once they communicate to each other probebly via radio waves or something first. They would colaborate. Eventualy they would merge into one. Now about communication. How would an infectious form get smarter if it cant communicate telepathicly? lets say this infectious form comes from a fungus form (what i call them). This fungus form that spawned it, lets say its connected by neourons (physiclly) to the hive mind. This would be the case in high charity because its so overgrown all flood fungus forms are connected. So if you step on one, the neurons would instanlty allert the gravemind to your location. In this way you could say all of high charity is the gravemind, because its all connected and all one central mass.

So the infectious form would be smarter because it was connected to the gravemind by neourons at one point. Therefore the gravemind giving it info (like how to use a gun, if the infected body did not know how, or had no head).
You might say how can the gravemind communicate with you when its light years away? It dosent cortana does. Now if you read the scavenger hunt thread, you will learn MB is probably inside of cortana. This means that MB would utilize the equipment on high charity to send messages at super luminal speads. Now in board the flood ship the gravemind contacts you.

This is because he is onboard the ship. Like an AI the gravemind would be able to split itself apart. So the gravemind would have left a piece of himself onboard the ship. He communicates with you threw the com channel, possibly trying to hack your suits systems.

Please excuse my horrible grammar and spelling.

[Edited on 07.16.2009 11:51 AM PDT]

  • 07.16.2009 11:39 AM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Agustus
Only problem I see with your thinking, really, is that Gravemind didn't always have an AI. It didn't always have a Cortana, it didn't always have a Mendicant Bias, and it still controlled the Flood legions that attacked the Forerunner. Even if there is a physical connection where the Flood have infected an entire area, there must be some non-physical connection to the Flood outside of that area.

  • 07.16.2009 12:23 PM PDT
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Some can come away from reading "War and Peace" thinking it a simple adventure story, while others can read the ingredients on a gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe.

Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: Agustus
Only problem I see with your thinking, really, is that Gravemind didn't always have an AI. It didn't always have a Cortana, it didn't always have a Mendicant Bias, and it still controlled the Flood legions that attacked the Forerunner. Even if there is a physical connection where the Flood have infected an entire area, there must be some non-physical connection to the Flood outside of that area.



It could stii comunicate with sound. You hear flood all the time screaching like strangled geese (it always used to freak me out). That could be a form of communication. That post also explains why the gravemind would behave like an AI. Its still the main idea of your theory just instead of flood running around they take the bodies to the flood to prevent them from escaping. To acess memories they probably puposly implanted circuts in the central mind. That way they could acsses neurons through electic impulses. After the gravemind became smart enough it could have turned this to his advantage. Using the circuts the other way around to hack the security in the facility it was captive in. Opening doors, deactivating containment protocols and alarms etc..

[Edited on 07.16.2009 12:50 PM PDT]

  • 07.16.2009 12:46 PM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution (V2)

It's not Hip-Hop, its Electro.... prick.

*brain explodes*

  • 07.16.2009 12:51 PM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution V2.2!
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Agustus
It could stii comunicate with sound.

Sound isn't FTL, though. The Gravemind needs to be able to control them without it taking, you know, like 5,000 years for orders to reach them.

  • 07.16.2009 12:54 PM PDT

Posted by: Agustus
It could stii comunicate with sound. You hear flood all the time screaching like strangled geese (it always used to freak me out). That could be a form of communication. That post also explains why the gravemind would behave like an AI. Its still the main idea of your theory just instead of flood running around they take the bodies to the flood to prevent them from escaping. To acess memories they probably puposly implanted circuts in the central mind. That way they could acsses neurons through electic impulses. After the gravemind became smart enough it could have turned this to his advantage. Using the circuts the other way around to hack the security in the facility it was captive in. Opening doors, deactivating containment protocols and alarms etc..


I'm not sure I can agree with this. It's a great explanation for how humans or even Forerunner would go about solving the problem but we have to remember who we're dealing with.

The Precursor are the only [semi]supposed example of a trans-sentient species. Their level of technological advancement is at unfathomably high levels compared to ours (humanity in the year 2552). To integrate synthetic machinery inside biomass seems like a, dare I say, primitive solution.

I can't corroborate this theory but I just feel that telepathy is not beyond the scope of a Precursor creation. Nor is the use of purely biological apparati to interact with machinery/circuitry (as I mentioned before).

[Edited on 07.16.2009 12:59 PM PDT]

  • 07.16.2009 12:58 PM PDT
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Some can come away from reading "War and Peace" thinking it a simple adventure story, while others can read the ingredients on a gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe.

Fair enough. By like we brought up before, theres little evidence. There is no solid evedince of telpathic abilities. There is evedince of physical communication though. Why would keyes be absorbed directly into the hivemind when he could just be infected and his mind telepathicly scanned and sent to the hivemind? It could be for nutrients. But thats unlikely because keyes is so far away from the hivemind in the first place why would they go the the trouble of transporting him that far just for nutrients? The flood on another planet is simple. Like I said the gravemind could "cut" himseld in picies. He sent part of himself in that covenant ship to cordinate the flood on the ship. This is how it would oversee so many flood on different planets. You have to remember the forerunner and precursors could send signals at superluminale speeds. The flood would have learned to do the same. It might even remember how to do this and use the equipment onboard high charity to send faster than light waves to earth. So no dubt the gravemind could do do this but not naturaly . Again this is just the most likely explanation.

[Edited on 07.16.2009 1:09 PM PDT]

  • 07.16.2009 1:07 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Agustus
Fair enough. By like we brought up before, theres little evidence. There is no solid evedince of telpathic abilities. There is evedince of physical communication though. Why would keyes be absorbed directly into the hivemind when he could just be infected and his mind telepathicly scanned and sent to the hivemind? It could be for nutrients. But thats unlikely because keyes is so far away from the hivemind in the first place why would they go the the trouble of transporting him that far just for nutrients? The flood on another planet is simple. Like I said the gravemind could "cut" himseld in picies. He sent part of himself in that covenant ship to cordinate the flood on the ship. This is how it would oversee so many flood on different planets. You have to remember the forerunner and precursors could send signals at superluminale speeds. The flood would have learned to do the same. It might even remember how to do this and use the equipment onboard high charity to send faster than light waves to earth. So no dubt the gravemind could do do this but not naturaly . Again this is just the most likely explanation.

Keyes could simply be built around the Proto-Gravemind because of his captain's neural link. They likely needed it to start the engines on the Pillar of Autumn, and the Flood were also grilling Keyes for information. They bring the man to their most advanced form, they have him:

- The best-protected from harm
- In the hands of their most advanced form, which can sift through the information he possesses at the greatest speeds (remember, these Flood did not have a central Gravemind, the Proto-Gravemind would have been the fastest - possibly the only - form that could obtain that kind of information)
- For nutrients to help the growth of the colony

It makes sense beyond just a physical link theory, they wanted to protect his neural link so they could start the ship, and they needed to bring it to the form that could actually sift through the memories, since no Gravemind-connection had been made.

  • 07.16.2009 1:16 PM PDT
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Some can come away from reading "War and Peace" thinking it a simple adventure story, while others can read the ingredients on a gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe.

Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: Agustus
Fair enough. By like we brought up before, theres little evidence. There is no solid evedince of telpathic abilities. There is evedince of physical communication though. Why would keyes be absorbed directly into the hivemind when he could just be infected and his mind telepathicly scanned and sent to the hivemind? It could be for nutrients. But thats unlikely because keyes is so far away from the hivemind in the first place why would they go the the trouble of transporting him that far just for nutrients? The flood on another planet is simple. Like I said the gravemind could "cut" himseld in picies. He sent part of himself in that covenant ship to cordinate the flood on the ship. This is how it would oversee so many flood on different planets. You have to remember the forerunner and precursors could send signals at superluminale speeds. The flood would have learned to do the same. It might even remember how to do this and use the equipment onboard high charity to send faster than light waves to earth. So no dubt the gravemind could do do this but not naturaly . Again this is just the most likely explanation.

Keyes could simply be built around the Proto-Gravemind because of his captain's neural link. They likely needed it to start the engines on the Pillar of Autumn, and the Flood were also grilling Keyes for information. They bring the man to their most advanced form, they have him:

- The best-protected from harm
- In the hands of their most advanced form, which can sift through the information he possesses at the greatest speeds (remember, these Flood did not have a central Gravemind, the Proto-Gravemind would have been the fastest - possibly the only - form that could obtain that kind of information)
- For nutrients to help the growth of the colony

It makes sense beyond just a physical link theory, they wanted to protect his neural link so they could start the ship, and they needed to bring it to the form that could actually sift through the memories, since no Gravemind-connection had been made.


Makes sense. But your points conflict each other. If telepathic powers come from the flood only when they reach the gravemind stage, and they needed keys for his nueral implant. It would not help them because they need it to be at the pillar of autume to use it. Besides it dosent seem like it was in any condition to take off. That means they would only need keys for the information in his brain. But that dosent help the argument any. Theres no direct link that says they brought keys to the hivemind because it isnt a gravemind and dosent have telepathic capabilities. There isnt any evedince that I can think of that supports this. Its more like a complete guess. Your original arguments used available evedince and comon sense. But this is just reaching for something that isnt there.

Its far more likely to me that the flood have no telepathic powers. Even if it was a gravemind they would still have to take keyes to it in order for the hivemind to obsorb his information. Unless it was something like high charity then in that case the entire place is the gravemind. It dosent make sense the flood did it for nutrients because he was so far away to begin with. And there where legions of dead cvenant all over the place that could have been used for nutrients.

Now they could have needed him to drive the covenant ship. The flood at this point are basic, without much knowledge. Even though keyes would know nothing about covenant ships he could still help. As you can see in the level "keys" the photo-Gravemind is interfacing with the ships controls.

  • 07.16.2009 2:01 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Agustus
Makes sense. But your points conflict each other. If telepathic powers come from the flood only when they reach the gravemind stage, and they needed keys for his nueral implant. It would not help them because they need it to be at the pillar of autume to use it. Besides it dosent seem like it was in any condition to take off. That means they would only need keys for the information in his brain. But that dosent help the argument any. Theres no direct link that says they brought keys to the hivemind because it isnt a gravemind and dosent have telepathic capabilities. There isnt any evedince that I can think of that supports this. Its more like a complete guess. Your original arguments used available evedince and comon sense. But this is just reaching for something that isnt there.

Its far more likely to me that the flood have no telepathic powers. Even if it was a gravemind they would still have to take keyes to it in order for the hivemind to obsorb his information. Unless it was something like high charity then in that case the entire place is the gravemind. It dosent make sense the flood did it for nutrients because he was so far away to begin with. And there where legions of dead cvenant all over the place that could have been used for nutrients.

Now they could have needed him to drive the covenant ship. The flood at this point are basic, without much knowledge. Even though keyes would know nothing about covenant ships he could still help. As you can see in the level "keys" the photo-Gravemind is interfacing with the ships controls.

Perhaps to fly the Covenant ship, yes. I don't really know. There's evidence that shows holes in the "no telepathy" thinking (the Gravemind controlling Flood across the galaxy instantaneously), but there's not much support for telepathy either.

This is just a point where assumptions are necessary and one has to choose which side one believes in. Personally, I'm with telepathy.

  • 07.16.2009 2:13 PM PDT