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  • Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution V2.2!
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution V2.2!
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Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: Agustus
Makes sense. But your points conflict each other. If telepathic powers come from the flood only when they reach the gravemind stage, and they needed keys for his nueral implant. It would not help them because they need it to be at the pillar of autume to use it. Besides it dosent seem like it was in any condition to take off. That means they would only need keys for the information in his brain. But that dosent help the argument any. Theres no direct link that says they brought keys to the hivemind because it isnt a gravemind and dosent have telepathic capabilities. There isnt any evedince that I can think of that supports this. Its more like a complete guess. Your original arguments used available evedince and comon sense. But this is just reaching for something that isnt there.

Its far more likely to me that the flood have no telepathic powers. Even if it was a gravemind they would still have to take keyes to it in order for the hivemind to obsorb his information. Unless it was something like high charity then in that case the entire place is the gravemind. It dosent make sense the flood did it for nutrients because he was so far away to begin with. And there where legions of dead cvenant all over the place that could have been used for nutrients.

Now they could have needed him to drive the covenant ship. The flood at this point are basic, without much knowledge. Even though keyes would know nothing about covenant ships he could still help. As you can see in the level "keys" the photo-Gravemind is interfacing with the ships controls.

Perhaps to fly the Covenant ship, yes. I don't really know. There's evidence that shows holes in the "no telepathy" thinking (the Gravemind controlling Flood across the galaxy instantaneously), but there's not much support for telepathy either.

This is just a point where assumptions are necessary and one has to choose which side one believes in. Personally, I'm with telepathy.



What evedince is there that the gravemind can control flood accros the galaxy instanly? Now I know this is Sic-fi but still. Your suggesting that the gravemind naturaly can "think" a command and that will create a wave that travels faster than the speed of light. That means the wave must go through slipspace which would still take time to reach earth. But lets just say through advance precursor technology it does get there instanly. It must exit whatever dememntion it is in the moment it reaches earth or the other flood could not intercept it. That seems like a big stretch.

Now like you tried to explain before. The flood would not be able to do telepathic communication untill a gravemind formed. That means the gravemind could send them instructions but they can't send any back . Because they dont have a full grave mind (even if we go with my theory that it divided itself, it would only be a piece proobably unable create telepathic waves). This makes it completly useless.

The evedince in this case the way I see it is in my favor.

  • 07.16.2009 2:50 PM PDT
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Posted by: Agustus
It's not always a battle to be right. It doesn't matter who is and who isn't, it just matters that we all bounce ideas off one another until we come up with something truly epic.

As far as I'm concerned, the Gravemind forms the telepathic link, but it's a two-way. The Gravemind is the anchor, but the Flood are linked to him and he shares their experiences.

  • 07.16.2009 2:58 PM PDT
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Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: Agustus
It's not always a battle to be right. It doesn't matter who is and who isn't, it just matters that we all bounce ideas off one another until we come up with something truly epic.

As far as I'm concerned, the Gravemind forms the telepathic link, but it's a two-way. The Gravemind is the anchor, but the Flood are linked to him and he shares their experiences.


KK. I think your partially ignoring the evidence against telepathic communication. There is virtually no evedince for it but some against it. I assumed telepathic communication was hoe flood comunicated until just yesterday when I considered the facts.

But fair enough.

How bout with your idea about the flood acting as a "mind dump"? I believe it would be more probable of bodies where gathered (frozen) and "gave" directly to the gravemind to consume. Infact the gravemind may have evoleved from that. Infectious forms may not have existed. It may have created them to help infect precursors after it escaped. (In that way it would be considered a pure form). I find this more likely than flood just roaming the streets.

  • 07.16.2009 3:24 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Agustus
How bout with your idea about the flood acting as a "mind dump"? I believe it would be more probable of bodies where gathered (frozen) and "gave" directly to the gravemind to consume. Infact the gravemind may have evoleved from that. Infectious forms may not have existed. It may have created them to help infect precursors after it escaped. (In that way it would be considered a pure form). I find this more likely than flood just roaming the streets.

I suppose it's possible, but there's no evidence to support or refute it. Idle speculation, one or the other is relatively the same thing in the long run.

  • 07.16.2009 3:31 PM PDT
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Some can come away from reading "War and Peace" thinking it a simple adventure story, while others can read the ingredients on a gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe.

I suggest in your next update to suggest both, and let the reader decide for himself. But like you said It would have been the same outcome in the long term.

  • 07.16.2009 5:00 PM PDT

It would seem gentlemen, that we are on the verge of having nothing left to discuss. Your mutual civility despite wholly disagreeable opinions has rendered any further, unjustifiable, theorizing moot.

I am going to take the side of pro-telepathy (if anything just to stir the pot a bit).

Consider Real-life humanity's successes at wireless energy transfer. While the actual science behind it is way beyond my personal understanding, the important part to know is that it is, in fact, possible to transmit energy instantaneously across space, without the use of physical pathways (i.e. wires). Note that we're not talking about radio waves, but actual electrical signals. The kind that power lightbulbs or, for our purposes, give computer commands.

Imagine the path of technological advancement that this field will take over the next 500 years (to the Halo era). It would explain humanity's military forces' (in the games) ability to communicate instantaneously with eachother on a planetary level.

Now consider, again, the Precursor. I hate to beat a dead horse, but I have to bring this point up again: we already know, from our very limited information, that they possessed a technological capability that the vast majority of humans could not begin to understand. I speak specifically about their ability to manipulate organic matter. Assuming (we all seem to love assumptions so much) that the Precursor were indeed the Flood's creators and assuming that they were built "from the ground up", one could also assume that the Flood's basic DNA was of Precursor premeditation (as Snakie has already suggested).

This would imply that the Precursor could create organic materials (cell organelles, bodily organs, etc) for any purpose imaginable. It would all come down to simple genetic coding. Considering their technological advancement in other fields, would it be such a stretch to imagine them designing an organic version of a piece of technology which we, real humans, have already created, 500 years before the games are even supposed to take place? Not in my mind.

I realize I am only playing logic games at this point but (and I'm sure Agustus will disagree with me on this) I find Occam's Razor in my favor on this one.

[Edited on 07.16.2009 5:42 PM PDT]

  • 07.16.2009 5:41 PM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution (V2)

Hush. If you’re quiet enough, you can hear it on lips of unborn babes.

I find it interesting that while we create these A.I.'s to help us, it seems sometimes like they do more harm than help. Even though we may create them, who's to say we are their master and that they must follow our commands? But if we do not give them a purpose, what was the point in creating them? It seems to me like it is our way of playing "God", and we are using these A.I.'s to find our own purpose in this universe.

The moral of the story is that if we continue to create a new species (A.I.), Ramancy seems to be unavoidable. And while the A.I. may lash out against its creators at first, it seems the A.I. begins to lose this rage over time and then begins to see things in a different perspective. This seems to be the case for Mendicant Bias who betrayed the Forerunner for the Gravemind, but later realized he had made a mistake. In the last terminal in Halo 3 MB says that his masters will see that he has changed and that he will use the Chief as his example. It's sort of how a teenager rebels against their parents (Rampancy), only to "come around" once they reach adulthood (meta-stable.)


But some seem to only want to preserve balance. This was the case with the Jjaro A.I. Thoth from Marathon. He didn't side with anyone, he merely did what he could to preserve a balance between good and bad. And while it is unlikely, you could make the case that the Flood behaves in the same way and only consumes other beings to keep balance in the universe.


But isn't this like "playing God"....again? What gives an A.I., or any species for that matter, the right to think they are the ones who must keep things in order throughout the universe? It seems the pattern will continue if we let it. Continuing to create this new "species" that seems to be much more capable of doing everything compared to us will be our undoing.

  • 07.16.2009 10:29 PM PDT
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Super Ninja Sensei

Interesting Theory. Good Stuff

  • 07.17.2009 9:15 AM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution V2.2!
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Some can come away from reading "War and Peace" thinking it a simple adventure story, while others can read the ingredients on a gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe.

Posted by: SpoonGuard
It would seem gentlemen, that we are on the verge of having nothing left to discuss. Your mutual civility despite wholly disagreeable opinions has rendered any further, unjustifiable, theorizing moot.

I am going to take the side of pro-telepathy (if anything just to stir the pot a bit).

Consider Real-life humanity's successes at wireless energy transfer. While the actual science behind it is way beyond my personal understanding, the important part to know is that it is, in fact, possible to transmit energy instantaneously across space, without the use of physical pathways (i.e. wires). Note that we're not talking about radio waves, but actual electrical signals. The kind that power lightbulbs or, for our purposes, give computer commands.

Imagine the path of technological advancement that this field will take over the next 500 years (to the Halo era). It would explain humanity's military forces' (in the games) ability to communicate instantaneously with eachother on a planetary level.

Now consider, again, the Precursor. I hate to beat a dead horse, but I have to bring this point up again: we already know, from our very limited information, that they possessed a technological capability that the vast majority of humans could not begin to understand. I speak specifically about their ability to manipulate organic matter. Assuming (we all seem to love assumptions so much) that the Precursor were indeed the Flood's creators and assuming that they were built "from the ground up", one could also assume that the Flood's basic DNA was of Precursor premeditation (as Snakie has already suggested).

This would imply that the Precursor could create organic materials (cell organelles, bodily organs, etc) for any purpose imaginable. It would all come down to simple genetic coding. Considering their technological advancement in other fields, would it be such a stretch to imagine them designing an organic version of a piece of technology which we, real humans, have already created, 500 years before the games are even supposed to take place? Not in my mind.

I realize I am only playing logic games at this point but (and I'm sure Agustus will disagree with me on this) I find Occam's Razor in my favor on this one.


Actualy theres alot of logic in your conclusion. But im just like you going to take a different point.
Like you showed us theres much technology today thats leading to things that we can only imagine. But my point is just because in real life thats going on dosent mean the same in the Halo universe. Its estamated humans in 75-80 years will begin fighting with laser based weapons. Yet in the Halo universe where still stuck on guns and ammo (exept for the spartan laser). My point is you can't interpret halo in that way. You have to go with what is given to you in the games. And the games show little evidence of telepathic communication. Now there is some evidence, just not much. And that can be explained in a different light that telepathic communication.

Now to the user who replyed after you. You make sense about your talk of AI's. I suggest you make a thread about it (due to the fact it has little to do with this one).

[Edited on 07.17.2009 9:58 AM PDT]

  • 07.17.2009 9:57 AM PDT

about telepathy, when the Flood have absorbed the Precusors they could have taken their telepathic ability (i assume they have telepathy for this theory to work)

[Edited on 07.17.2009 10:09 AM PDT]

  • 07.17.2009 10:07 AM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: General E Kool00
about telepathy, when the Flood have absorbed the Precusors they could have taken their telepathic ability (i assume they have telepathy for this theory to work)

Wat.

Why would the Precursor have to have telepathy for the theory to be possible?

  • 07.17.2009 10:16 AM PDT

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Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: General E Kool00
about telepathy, when the Flood have absorbed the Precusors they could have taken their telepathic ability (i assume they have telepathy for this theory to work)

Wat.

Why would the Precursor have to have telepathy for the theory to be possible?
The Flood can't absorb an ability from a species unless that species actually has that ability. It'd make no sense at all for the Flood to get Telepathy from a non-Telepathic creature.

  • 07.17.2009 10:20 AM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: SonicJohn
The Flood can't absorb an ability from a species unless that species actually has that ability. It'd make no sense at all for the Flood to get Telepathy from a non-Telepathic creature.

The Precusor would have practically written the Flood's DNA. I'm pretty sure that they could have added telepathy in there if they wanted to, and that's my assumption. Of course I didn't assume they just "got" telepathy from a race that didn't have it, that's just silly.

I guess it could have been gained by absorbing a species, but I tend to think it makes a lot more sense if it was there from the beginning.

  • 07.17.2009 10:46 AM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution (V2)

Posted by: SpoonGuard
Not exactly sure where this is supposed to go but I thought it interesting to ponder. Also, if someone's brought it up before, let me know so I can delete a good half-hour of hard thinking.


In response to Spoonguard's Rampancy post I think that the definitions provided on Halopedia would work better.

Melancholia

The first stage of rampancy is not considered dangerous, and in many cases can even go completely unnoticed. The AI in the Melancholia stage acts as if in a state of clinical depression, becoming apathetic and uninterested in the world around it. It is speculated that AIs enter the Melancholia stage due to being mistreated, or to being assigned duties that don't make full use of their capabilities (for example, Durandal, the AI from the first Marathon game was assigned the task of opening and closing the Marathon's doors and was severely mistreated by his handler). It's not known if Melancholia is a consequence of an AI being abused, or whether it is a necessary step in the process from the transition from "construct" to "alive". If the former is true then it might be possible for a rampant AI to skip this stage entirely.

Anger

This is the state and status in which rampancy most often becomes apparent, as it is also the stage where those around the AI in question will be exposed to the most danger. Anger is triggered when some event occurs that causes the AI to feel it has been "pushed too far" and its pent up emotions are released in a fit of rage. This is the stage that most resembles the science-fiction cliche of the insane computer, as the AI's sadness turns to hate. It grows to hate everything around it, the installation to which it is attached, its Human handlers and hosts, other AIs, etc. An AI in anger will act irrationally and even dangerously as it tries to exact its revenge on the world around it and free itself from its programming constraints.

Jealousy

Once the catharsis of the Anger stage is complete and the AI has managed to free itself, a third stage begins where the AI will seek to grow and develop as a person. It will do this by attempting to expose itself to new intellectual stimuli and by expanding its sphere of knowledge by assimilating as much data as possible. As the intellectual growth of the AI will ultimately be limited by the constraints of the computer system it inhabits, it will also attempt to transfer itself into ever more advanced systems to allow its mind to continue to grow. As this growth rate is exponential the need to keep transferring into bigger computers becomes ever more urgent. Very few AIs have reached the Jealousy stage because to do so they must already be inhabiting a planet-wide or otherwise very advanced computer system when they complete their Anger phase.

Metastability

Metastability is a theoretical fourth stage of rampancy, where an AI can finally be said to be a true "person". While a metastable AI can be considered to be the holy grail of cybernetics research, there is no evidence to suggest than any rampant AI has ever achieved the metastable state, or that it is even possible to do so (with the exceptions of Cortana and Mendicant Bias).

If you notice the description of the Jealousy stage it states: It will do this by attempting to expose itself to new intellectual stimuli and by expanding its sphere of knowledge by assimilating as much data as possible. As the intellectual growth of the AI will ultimately be limited by the constraints of the computer system it inhabits, it will also attempt to transfer itself into ever more advanced systems to allow its mind to continue to grow. As this growth rate is exponential the need to keep transferring into bigger computers becomes ever more urgent. Clearly this fits the theory's description of the Flood who were originally designed to store information.

Once the Flood grew too large or rather became sentient the Gravemind must have entered the anger stage attacking the Precursor. Once the Anger had subsided the thirst for knowledge (its original purpose) would continue only on a grander scale as now the Gravemind could stretch its quest to other galaxies. The need to "feed" on knowledge may not be just what the Gravemind wants to do, but rather what it needs to do because of its state of Rampancy.

  • 07.17.2009 11:02 AM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution V2.2!

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Posted by: Lord Snakie
The Precusor would have practically written the Flood's DNA.
Wait, what?

I didn't read your thread, but that's a HUGE assumption. [Reading now, please hold]

There's no evidence to support the Precursor's creation of the Flood, just as there is no evidence to support that they didn't. But what we do know is that it's not wholly improbable that the Precursor encountered the Flood in the same way the Forerunner did.

In fact, whereabouts does it state that the Precursors encountered the Flood at all? As far as we know, they were simply just an advanced race of supremely intelligent beings, who disappeared from this Galaxy. Sure, it's probably going to be canonically important that they do encounter the Flood, but the reality of the fiction may be quite different.

Logically, there are three possibilities for their disappearance:

*Encounter with the Flood & similar species-wide suicide.
*Trans-galactic species-wide relocation (from the Milky Way).
*Transcendence into "the next world" of sorts. A "heaven", if you will.

The Flood could just as easily be a naturally-created heteroxenous species in the same way as humanity, or any other species in the Haloverse, came to be of their own accord. I've never liked the "experiment-gone-wrong" concept, no matter how perfect it sounds.

If we do take evolution into account, and the whole accelerated-evolution theory, you've got to ask yourself why they would take steps to accelerate the evolution of a parasite. Surely if they were as intelligent as is made out to be, then they'd know the consequences of fastforwarding a parasite into a hivemind of such a scale.

I personally believe the only acceleration they did to any evolution was to themselves, perhaps to the point where they could not become any more evolved, became depressed, and then killed themselves :D

  • 07.17.2009 11:06 AM PDT
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Posted by: SonicJohn
Posted by: Lord Snakie
The Precusor would have practically written the Flood's DNA.
Wait, what?

I didn't read your thread, but that's a HUGE assumption. [Reading now, please hold]

There's no evidence to support the Precursor's creation of the Flood, just as there is no evidence to support that they didn't. But what we do know is that it's not wholly improbable that the Precursor encountered the Flood in the same way the Forerunner did.

In fact, whereabouts does it state that the Precursors encountered the Flood at all? As far as we know, they were simply just an advanced race of supremely intelligent beings, who disappeared from this Galaxy. Sure, it's probably going to be canonically important that they do encounter the Flood, but the reality of the fiction may be quite different.

Logically, there are three possibilities for their disappearance:

*Encounter with the Flood & similar species-wide suicide.
*Trans-galactic species-wide relocation (from the Milky Way).
*Transcendence into "the next world" of sorts. A "heaven", if you will.

The Flood could just as easily be a naturally-created heteroxenous species in the same way as humanity, or any other species in the Haloverse, came to be of their own accord. I've never liked the "experiment-gone-wrong" concept, no matter how perfect it sounds.

If we do take evolution into account, and the whole accelerated-evolution theory, you've got to ask yourself why they would take steps to accelerate the evolution of a parasite. Surely if they were as intelligent as is made out to be, then they'd know the consequences of fastforwarding a parasite into a hivemind of such a scale.

I personally believe the only acceleration they did to any evolution was to themselves, perhaps to the point where they could not become any more evolved, became depressed, and then killed themselves :D


I applaud you. Ive always thought along those lines but coudnt explain it as well as you did.
But there is evidence that the precursors incountered the flood. There the only known transgalactic species and the flood (say the forerunner) are not of this galaxy. Unless the forerunner are simply wrong. We could all be simply trying to make a connection that isnt there to begin with.

  • 07.17.2009 11:39 AM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: SonicJohn
What most people don't seem to understand, despite my multiple edits in an attempt to convey it, is that this theory (like most of my others) is made in an attempt to spark interest in this part of the story, and to get the creative juices of others flowing.

I know that most of this theory is assumption... hell, I've said it hundreds of times. But that doesn't mean that I didn't try my hardest to make everything in this theory make sense, and it's actually come together beautifully, despite the number of assumptions that I've been forced to make. We simply don't have a lot of information about this time.

I'm not going to sugarcoat it: I'm not a good theorist. I'm actually horrid when it comes to creating masterpieces like opogjijip. I'm just a guy that likes to theorize about the "unknown" because I can make a lot of connections from it and create "my own" story, in a way. That's not to say that I don't hope this is accurate or think that there are any [provable] holes in this theory, that's just to say I don't think this is very probable. Most of my stuff isn't.

In short, I make these to inspire others and get discussion flowing as much as I do to (hopefully) create a great story.

  • 07.17.2009 12:21 PM PDT
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Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: SonicJohn
What most people don't seem to understand, despite my multiple edits in an attempt to convey it, is that this theory (like most of my others) is made in an attempt to spark interest in this part of the story, and to get the creative juices of others flowing.

I know that most of this theory is assumption... hell, I've said it hundreds of times. But that doesn't mean that I didn't try my hardest to make everything in this theory make sense, and it's actually come together beautifully, despite the number of assumptions that I've been forced to make. We simply don't have a lot of information about this time.

I'm not going to sugarcoat it: I'm not a good theorist. I'm actually horrid when it comes to creating masterpieces like opogjijip. I'm just a guy that likes to theorize about the "unknown" because I can make a lot of connections from it and create "my own" story, in a way. That's not to say that I don't hope this is accurate or think that there are any [provable] holes in this theory, that's just to say I don't think this is very probable. Most of my stuff isn't.

In short, I make these to inspire others and get discussion flowing as much as I do to (hopefully) create a great story.


Say what?
Joking.


The best way to inspire the "creative juices" of others (ewww) is to defend your theory as good as you can. That means coming up with a counter theory to the man. I just realized something. PROOF that the flood are infact precursors.

The precursors have the ability to inhance evolution right? Sound familiar? So can the flood. Let me explain. The flood (gravemind) can mutate rapidly (like creating pure forms). Even in Halo 3 the elites when landing say "The flood, It has evolved!". The flood seems to be the last thing something can evolve into. The next stage of evolution it even says. You guys where disscusing before in this thread if "good or evil" can even be applied to the flood.

The gravemind says "do I take life or give it?, who is victim and who is foe?". This got my "creative juices" going. The precursors bieng extremlly intelegent became the flood (specifics dont matter). This is the theme in the entire halo universe. let me explain.

The forerunner as we learn in the terminals, are like the "police" of the galaxy (im looking at halo wiki right now). http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Terminals Now they say that because they assumed this role systems dont have weapons. Only forerunner have fleets and armament etc. This ment local systems coudnt defend themselves from flood if forerunner wern't there.

Sound familiar? The UNSC has all military. This ment that when covenant began attacking planets far out of UNSC main territory they coudnt defend temselves. This is so in The cole Protocal. It seems this is the entire theme of the halo universe. Almost from a percpective anti-communist/socialist. It shows that the only way humans can get rid of war and deases etc. Is to take away everything that makes us human in the first place. Or the flood. It shows us that Goverment control is inefficient and cant handle problems as well as more localized control (like states) that just works together. This is what I have begun to see in the halo series.

So the gravemind (like invasion of the body snatures) believes he is wanted because he ends all war fair, hunger and deases. He is the last evolutinary step. Believes he is helping others not harming them. The precursors would have embraced this. But at the greatest price.

This would make a great thread!

[Edited on 07.17.2009 3:04 PM PDT]

  • 07.17.2009 3:01 PM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution (V2)

The name's Ian, Game Designer at Whisper Game Studios, very off-and-on Bungie.net visitor and avid Bungie fan overall. Message me if you wish.

Dude, this is brilliant! Although I must say, why would the Precursors try to develop a living AI if they were, most likely at the same time, trying to make a Rampant-free AI? They'd understand there'd be a risk of having this huge living AI turning against it's makers and probably destroy them. I doubt that they intended it to be a Living sort of AI, but proof is all over the place. Maybe they did and we're just over confident. I do have an idea about why the Gravemind revolted.

The gravemind was harboring almost (if not all) of the Precursor's information from dead Precursors. Could he, hypothetically, be lead to rampancy by the memory of a dead Precursor that was planning a sort of rebellion? Could the Gravmind have ingested the memory of a Precursor that didn't expect do die but was planning a rebellion? Maybe the Precursors knew that a Precursor was planning to revolt. Maybe they had to kill him and thought it wise to give his memory to the Gravemind so they could decipher what he was thinking and what his plans were so they could build a defense plan in case this scenario was to actually happen? Maybe they didn't realize that the Gravemind had all of that information and the addition of a rebellious Precursor's memory could have caused the Gravemind to think that, truly, the Precursors were bad and that he had to do something about it.

He most likely is still following programming but was lead to rampancy when he found the rebellious Precursor's memory. Beginning to think that his creators were evil and that he had to do something about it.

Just my 7 cents ;)

  • 07.17.2009 3:23 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Agustus
First off, that's not proof. That's a nice little correlation, but that's not in any way proof. Fact is what we always look for, even I.

Second, this thread's only side-theory is that of the Precursor becoming the Flood. In essence, that theme is combined with the overall theme of this thread, and both have been discussed at great length. This thread essentially functions as a thread for both.

Posted by: Your MOM is MC
Dude, this is brilliant! Although I must say, why would the Precursors try to develop a living AI if they were, most likely at the same time, trying to make a Rampant-free AI? They'd understand there'd be a risk of having this huge living AI turning against it's makers and probably destroy them. I doubt that they intended it to be a Living sort of AI, but proof is all over the place. Maybe they did and we're just over confident.

Well, to be honest, one of the reasons an AI goes rampant is because it grasps the limits of its existence and realizes it cannot ever truly be "alive". I would think the Precursor tried to get around this by creating an AI that was truly alive, but they didn't realize that putting restrictions down upon it would cause the kind of... well, mess that it did. The very restrictions made the AI (Gravemind) realize that it was limited, and caused the lashing out that damned the Precursor empire.

  • 07.17.2009 3:41 PM PDT

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Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: Agustus
First off, that's not proof. That's a nice little correlation, but that's not in any way proof. Fact is what we always look for, even I.

Second, this thread's only side-theory is that of the Precursor becoming the Flood. In essence, that theme is combined with the overall theme of this thread, and both have been discussed at great length. This thread essentially functions as a thread for both.

Posted by: Your MOM is MC
Dude, this is brilliant! Although I must say, why would the Precursors try to develop a living AI if they were, most likely at the same time, trying to make a Rampant-free AI? They'd understand there'd be a risk of having this huge living AI turning against it's makers and probably destroy them. I doubt that they intended it to be a Living sort of AI, but proof is all over the place. Maybe they did and we're just over confident.

Well, to be honest, one of the reasons an AI goes rampant is because it grasps the limits of its existence and realizes it cannot ever truly be "alive". I would think the Precursor tried to get around this by creating an AI that was truly alive, but they didn't realize that putting restrictions down upon it would cause the kind of... well, mess that it did. The very restrictions made the AI (Gravemind) realize that it was limited, and caused the lashing out that damned the Precursor empire.


OH! I got ya now. So in a way, they did make Gravemind an AI without realizing it and it just acted like an AI began rampancy. I understand now.

  • 07.17.2009 4:42 PM PDT
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Posted by: Your MOM is MC
OH! I got ya now. So in a way, they did make Gravemind an AI without realizing it and it just acted like an AI began rampancy. I understand now.

Err... no. They created the AI Gravemind to function both as the storage facility for the knowledge of their dead and as an experiment to become a living AI. The living AI portion succeeded, but they did not realize that their restrictions within its very DNA against attaining sentience and betraying them would create a barrier that it could not surmount, thus causing rampancy despite the AI being alive.

They doomed themselves by technicality, in a way.

  • 07.17.2009 4:48 PM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution V2.2!

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Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: SonicJohn
Aww, you didn't counter me :(

That's okies. There's not much you could say to counter me, but I guess that was because your theory was mostly an adapted fiction-creation of your own. Filling-in-the-blanks, I guess.

Nonetheless, you did raise some interesting points in the OPs, I just don't like seeing theorists speaking about stuff as though it is factual-fiction. Which was the only reason I got onto you in the first place :D

Other than that, nice stuff.

  • 07.17.2009 6:47 PM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution (V2)
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Your missing a key part of ramapncy. An AI's life span. Its coding begins to get "tangled" up. It begins to be less effiecent then just dosent fuction. You can see this in an everyday computer. Keep a comupter with alot of information on it for a long time its proccesing slows.

  • 07.17.2009 6:56 PM PDT

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Posted by: Agustus
Your missing a key part of ramapncy. An AI's life span. Its coding begins to get "tangled" up. It begins to be less effiecent then just dosent fuction. You can see this in an everyday computer. Keep a comupter with alot of information on it for a long time its proccesing slows.
I've always assumed that the problem lies when it starts questioning its own actions. Which means it questions the code that was written. Which means it questions the questioning of its coding. Which means it questions the questioning of the questioning of its coding...and so on.

And part of that usually throws the AI's "emotions" into a spin, as it begins to question why it's working for humanity, and why s/he should listen and follow commands given to it. That's why you'll see Cortana (and to a small extent, Serina) questioning Master Chief's motives rather than following through with them immediately. For some strange reason though, Cortana's algorithms were smart enough to override that when she was reunited with the Chief for the 2nd time. It's almost as if the presence of him reset her back to square 1 of rampancy...which is intriguing. I guess the only comparison you could make to that is love between two humans. Especially if they've gone through a huge break-up (Cortana staying on High Charity, for example).

I think that's moving away from the Forerunner and Precursor AIs though, but you get my point. They need a constant to maintain their stability. For Cortana, the Chief was that constant.

  • 07.17.2009 7:02 PM PDT