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  • Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution V2.2!
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution V2.2!
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: SonicJohn
Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: SonicJohn

Oh, trust me, I could've countered you. I just didn't want to turn this into a futile back-and-forth argument that would serve no purpose, seeing as I really just made this theory for the fun of it in the first place.

And the only reason I refer to it like it is fact is because most of the discussions we have here focus on portions of the "supposed" story that are deep into the timeline, meaning that we're already assuming about fifty things as fact, so I don't want to say "if" and "maybe" about 50 times. It makes responses quicker.

  • 07.18.2009 11:51 AM PDT

Posted by: SonicJohn
Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: General E Kool00
about telepathy, when the Flood have absorbed the Precusors they could have taken their telepathic ability (i assume they have telepathy for this theory to work)

Wat.

Why would the Precursor have to have telepathy for the theory to be possible?
The Flood can't absorb an ability from a species unless that species actually has that ability. It'd make no sense at all for the Flood to get Telepathy from a non-Telepathic creature.


Sorry, I totally made this unclear, i am saying that the Precurors did have telepathy and the flood absorbed it and the Flood use this to do stuff. Also I meant that its not a fact that the Precursors have telepathy but I assume that a species that advanced have telepathy.

[Edited on 07.19.2009 4:06 PM PDT]

  • 07.18.2009 4:50 PM PDT
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Some can come away from reading "War and Peace" thinking it a simple adventure story, while others can read the ingredients on a gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe.

ok, im back. Yet i see nothing to really comment on.... Hmmm. Echo echo echo. It seems the conversation slowy grinded to a halt in my absence... I still believe the precursors became the flood. The entire controling evolution thing (flood can control its own evolution) kinda seal it for me. In the terminals the flood tells MB that he is trying to deliver the galaxy from hunger, unhappiness etc. Also making them immortal. He says the message has fallen on death ears. And that he wasnt that message, he was its origin. MB joins the flood because theree peacefull, no interspecies war, etc. MB was so intellegent and that was his downfall. His capacity was his weakness (says so himself). I believe this is what happened to the precursors. They where so intellegent that they willingly became the flood. MB says that that is the path they where headed (through evolution and tech. advancement eventually) the flood was just a more direct rout. Why resist?

  • 07.20.2009 4:14 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Agustus
Alright man, you've stated your opinion and made your points. At this point, we're just discussing the same things over and over again. I'd appreciate it if you let the dead dog lie unless you come up with more evidence for your thinking, rather than saying "Yet I see nothing to really comment on..." and find something to say anyway.

That's damn close to bumping, and I don't want this theory locked.

  • 07.20.2009 4:47 PM PDT

I've just remembered an interesting bit of information that I think supports Snakie's theory.

In Terminal #1, on legendary difficulty, the player is presented with a short narrative from the perspective of Mendicant Bias. In it, he describes his initial journey outside of the Maginot Sphere and the events that transpired over the planet code-named CE-10-2165-d's:

[2 hours] ago 12,423 small recreational vessels appeared inside [CE-10-2165-d's] orbital perimeter. Hidden within that vast swarm were seven massive freight carriers. The smaller craft were employed as [ablative armor], allowing the carriers to descend through the atmosphere; landing on top of major population centers.

Despite the fact that the naval garrison was aware of the likelihood of just such an attack, their ability to effectively defend against it proved insufficient.

This has always been the enemy's [modus operandi]: [flood] your opponent's ability to process information with so much noise that no meaningful resistance can be put into action.


He then describes the countermeasure enacted by the planet's defenders.
[3 minutes] ago those same population centers began disappearing under brilliant flashes. This was not an ill conceived, poorly implemented counter attack; it was a deliberate denial of resources - those resources being the remainder of [CE-10-2165-d's] population.

Now here's the important part. Pay very close attention to the wording:
Is this the noble sacrifice my creators spoke of? Where is the nobility in these streets paved with greasy carbon and dun ash? [My mouth is speaking at another's behest] - that is not my voice; that is the other.

Its voice stands out as the single calm note in the panicked cacophony outside the sphere. It alone is not decrying its fate or raging against the [central government].

This anomaly bears closer examination.

This, as we all know, is the beginning of Mendicant Bias' betrayal and eventual annihilation of the Forerunner.

I bring this up because of the line: Is this the noble sacrifice my creators spoke of? Where is the nobility in these streets paved with greasy carbon and dun ash? [My mouth is speaking at another's behest] - that is not my voice; that is the other.
I will not even try to figure out what the specific "sacrifice" is of which the Gravemind speaks but notice the way in which he mentions it. His creators were the first to talk about it.

Creators. The Gravemind is openly stating that he was, in fact, created by another race. Not evolved from, but built, designed, made by the hands of others. And unless there is another hyper-advanced race of beings that has gone completely unmentioned up to now, those creators must be the Precursor.

  • 07.21.2009 10:17 AM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: SpoonGuard
Simply amazing. This is exactly the kind of proof we needed to turn this theory around from a guessing game into an actual, legitimate theory. The moment I get the chance, I'll put this in the OP. We've got some solid proof now.

  • 07.21.2009 11:41 AM PDT
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  • Exalted Legendary Member

Some can come away from reading "War and Peace" thinking it a simple adventure story, while others can read the ingredients on a gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe.

Posted by: SpoonGuard
I've just remembered an interesting bit of information that I think supports Snakie's theory.

In Terminal #1, on legendary difficulty, the player is presented with a short narrative from the perspective of Mendicant Bias. In it, he describes his initial journey outside of the Maginot Sphere and the events that transpired over the planet code-named CE-10-2165-d's:

[2 hours] ago 12,423 small recreational vessels appeared inside [CE-10-2165-d's] orbital perimeter. Hidden within that vast swarm were seven massive freight carriers. The smaller craft were employed as [ablative armor], allowing the carriers to descend through the atmosphere; landing on top of major population centers.

Despite the fact that the naval garrison was aware of the likelihood of just such an attack, their ability to effectively defend against it proved insufficient.

This has always been the enemy's [modus operandi]: [flood] your opponent's ability to process information with so much noise that no meaningful resistance can be put into action.


He then describes the countermeasure enacted by the planet's defenders.
[3 minutes] ago those same population centers began disappearing under brilliant flashes. This was not an ill conceived, poorly implemented counter attack; it was a deliberate denial of resources - those resources being the remainder of [CE-10-2165-d's] population.

Now here's the important part. Pay very close attention to the wording:
Is this the noble sacrifice my creators spoke of? Where is the nobility in these streets paved with greasy carbon and dun ash? [My mouth is speaking at another's behest] - that is not my voice; that is the other.

Its voice stands out as the single calm note in the panicked cacophony outside the sphere. It alone is not decrying its fate or raging against the [central government].

This anomaly bears closer examination.

This, as we all know, is the beginning of Mendicant Bias' betrayal and eventual annihilation of the Forerunner.

I bring this up because of the line: Is this the noble sacrifice my creators spoke of? Where is the nobility in these streets paved with greasy carbon and dun ash? [My mouth is speaking at another's behest] - that is not my voice; that is the other.
I will not even try to figure out what the specific "sacrifice" is of which the Gravemind speaks but notice the way in which he mentions it. His creators were the first to talk about it.

Creators. The Gravemind is openly stating that he was, in fact, created by another race. Not evolved from, but built, designed, made by the hands of others. And unless there is another hyper-advanced race of beings that has gone completely unmentioned up to now, those creators must be the Precursor.


I never really paid close attention to that before. It is definatly something. I always just thought the sacrifice was those cities getting deystroyed. In order to prevent flood growth. But if it is the gravemind talking then that is strange. It would be just like in Halo 3. The gravemind contacting you, perhaps even trying to hack your suits computer systems. Though there is seeminly nothing else thats going on (from what you are told) that he could mean sacrifice.

Unless that "sacrifice" is all diverse life bieng killed and absorbed into a hive mind. And the Gravemind is thinking of how vilontley everything is going at this point. Thats why hes questioning where is the nobility of it all?

If thats the case then the gravemind indeed completly believes hes doing the world a favor. This is what he later convinces MB he is indeed doing.

  • 07.21.2009 3:52 PM PDT
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Posted by: Agustus


I never really paid close attention to that before. It is definatly something. I always just thought the sacrifice was those cities getting deystroyed. In order to prevent flood growth. But if it is the gravemind talking then that is strange. It would be just like in Halo 3. The gravemind contacting you, perhaps even trying to hack your suits computer systems. Though there is seeminly nothing else thats going on (from what you are told) that he could mean sacrifice.

Unless that "sacrifice" is all diverse life bieng killed and absorbed into a hive mind. And the Gravemind is thinking of how vilontley everything is going at this point. Thats why hes questioning where is the nobility of it all?

If thats the case then the gravemind indeed completly believes hes doing the world a favor. This is what he later convinces MB he is indeed doing.


Your missing the point of his post which is that the Gravemind was created by someone, which must be the Precursor unless there is some other unmention Trans-Galactic Tier 0 Species out there, which is improbable.

  • 07.21.2009 7:42 PM PDT

Nice theory :)

Just one question; if the Flood were created to store the memories of the dead than how do they do this when they can't infect dead bodies? The Forerunners knew they couldn't infect dead bodies so they created the halos.

  • 07.22.2009 1:45 AM PDT

Posted by: zaxmacks
Nice theory :)

Just one question; if the Flood were created to store the memories of the dead than how do they do this when they can't infect dead bodies? The Forerunners knew they couldn't infect dead bodies so they created the halos.


Not sure where you're getting your information but, the Flood can infect the dead. Ever notice how new combat forms seem to pop up from the same spot where you just put down a Brute?

The Halos target sentient life, but we do not know the actual method by which they are destroyed. It is likely that the Halo effect disrupts a being's nervous system in such a way that makes it impossible (or not worth it) for the Flood to infect them.

  • 07.22.2009 5:15 AM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution (V2)
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Seven is the greatest number. It's got references everywhere! And it wouldn't surprise me if it was the answer to existance. (42 is in the 7 times table, all you hitchhikers fans will know.)

You need to send this theory to Halopedia. It would give them an article that would further explain the background. They may even make it a reality within the Halo universe, and embed it in the franchise like part of the Halo story itself.

  • 07.22.2009 7:59 AM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution V2.2!
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Seven is the greatest number. It's got references everywhere! And it wouldn't surprise me if it was the answer to existance. (42 is in the 7 times table, all you hitchhikers fans will know.)

Im not sure the flood needs the nervous system of the corpse to work. It dosn't need to infect them either, it may just use them for food. The explaination was: All sentient life with the necessary mass to sustain (feed) the flood would be destroyed by the 'halo effect' caused by the rings. If the flood needs food, then it will just dive into the nearest pile of flesh, whole or mangled, it dosn't care!

As for the Halo effect, i always imagined that it would disintegrate sentient life, that being the reason for no forerunner fossils or remains being found, and it makes sense of the original plan made by the forerunners that denied the flood their food source. Cortana said Halo was designed to starve the flood. That would require the galaxy to be completely deprived of sentient life.

This disintegration effect probably destroyed the infection forms alive at the time, because the forms are merely the mass of the corpses under flood controll. Halo can't tell the difference between the flood and sentient life, so it destroys all sentient life. Leaving only non-sentient life like the flood spores. They would eventually starve.

[Edited on 07.22.2009 8:24 AM PDT]

  • 07.22.2009 8:13 AM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution (V2)

Posted by: OPTIMASH_SLIME
You need to send this theory to Halopedia. It would give them an article that would further explain the background. They may even make it a reality within the Halo universe, and embed it in the franchise like part of the Halo story itself.


Lofty thinking. I am certain, given Bungie's past attention to even the most minute of details, that all of this has been carefully thought out already. We can only hope that the tru7h is eventually revealed.

  • 07.22.2009 8:14 AM PDT
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Seven is the greatest number. It's got references everywhere! And it wouldn't surprise me if it was the answer to existance. (42 is in the 7 times table, all you hitchhikers fans will know.)

It will all come full circle eventually, maybe they will explain something more in the movies they will inevitably make! (if they get it working, and sort out the bickering between studios about who gets what.)

  • 07.22.2009 8:27 AM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution V2.2!

Posted by: OPTIMASH_SLIME
Im not sure the flood needs the nervous system of the corpse to work. It dosn't need to infect them either, it may just use them for food. The explaination was: All sentient life with the necessary mass to sustain (feed) the flood would be destroyed by the 'halo effect' caused by the rings. If the flood needs food, then it will just dive into the nearest pile of flesh, whole or mangled, it dosn't care!

As for the Halo effect, i always imagined that it would disintegrate sentient life, the reason for no forerunner fossils or remains, and the reason that the flood can no-longer feed. Cortana said Halo was designed to starve the flood.


I see what you're getting at but consider this:

At no point in 343 Guilty Spark's explanation of the Rings (from the later levels of Halo 1) does he explicitly say that the Flood uses humans, Elites, Brutes, etc for physical nourishment. It is quite possible that the "sustenance" to which Spark refers is in fact cognitive. Thoughts, ideas, memories. If, as Lord Snakie suggests, the Flood's original purpose was the acquire knowledge, would it be so far-fetched to suppose that this "hunger" could in fact be physically (or mentally) debilitating if not satiated?

We also know that the Array targets sentient life, that is, life capable of higher cognitive processes. This is very different from targeting all life in the galaxy and destroying it. Consider also that, on our own planet, humanity makes up a very small fraction of animal life. The rest of the animal population's biomass far surpasses that of humans. Why then, did the Array not target them? If I were an infection form driven purely by hunger for nutrients, an African elephant would seem much more appetizing than a human being. Yet we saw no infected elephants rampaging through New Mombassa! (joke, but seriously...).

Essentially, there are too many factors that lead me to believe that the Flood's goals and motivations stem from more than physical need alone. To bring it back to your original point, be careful with your definition of 'feed' and 'sustain.' For us, it means eating and gaining nutrients. For the Flood, it could be something drastically different.

[Edited on 07.22.2009 8:37 AM PDT]

  • 07.22.2009 8:34 AM PDT
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Seven is the greatest number. It's got references everywhere! And it wouldn't surprise me if it was the answer to existance. (42 is in the 7 times table, all you hitchhikers fans will know.)

I see your point and agree, but i thought the point of the ark being out of range of the halo effect was that the animals alive on earth could be transported to the ark through the portal, so that the halo effect didn't harm them. I had read a 'real world' fact that stated all life originated from Africa (only theory). This would support the forunners plan to evacuate animals from earth, to the ark, and bring them back after the array fires. Giving the Ark's name a litteral meaning (noas ark).

But it is unknown weather the forunner caried out this plan. If they didn't, that means that all life on earth would be wiped out, except those who would not sustain the flood (micro- organisms etc). They may have accelerated the growth rate of these organisms, and they became the animals we know today, and eventually us.

If this did occur after the firing of the array, the forunner would be dead. So these tasks may have been performed by machines specifically programmed to carry out these tasks, like the machines building the ark.

  • 07.22.2009 9:11 AM PDT
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Seven is the greatest number. It's got references everywhere! And it wouldn't surprise me if it was the answer to existance. (42 is in the 7 times table, all you hitchhikers fans will know.)

I appologise for being vague with the terms 'feed' and 'sustain', i may have giveth the wrong impression to what i actually meant. And yes, i haven't played CE for a while, so i can only roughly remember what 343 said.

Seen as this is set 500 years in the future, the elephant species will probably have been subject too 500 years worth of illegal hunting, not to mention a covenant invasion force landing down, followed by the Elite ships glassing half the continent. If the elephants can survive that then we should be debating their omnipitence.

There might have been a phsycotic rampaging infected elephant tearing around the african plains, we just didnt see it!

[Edited on 07.22.2009 9:37 AM PDT]

  • 07.22.2009 9:16 AM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

It's important to remember that the Forerunner comic showed humans watching the Forerunner build the portal to the Ark, so it's known that we were shuttled to the Ark and preserved, although we are unsure about what happened to the animals. We existed back then, and we were shuttled away so our species could survive.

  • 07.22.2009 11:28 AM PDT

Posted by: OPTIMASH_SLIME
I appologise for being vague with the terms 'feed' and 'sustain', i may have giveth the wrong impression to what i actually meant. And yes, i haven't played CE for a while, so i can only roughly remember what 343 said.

Seen as this is set 500 years in the future, the elephant species will probably have been subject too 500 years worth of illegal hunting, not to mention a covenant invasion force landing down, followed by the Elite ships glassing half the continent. If the elephants can survive that then we should be debating their omnipitence.

There might have been a phsycotic rampaging infected elephant tearing around the african plains, we just didnt see it!


Rampaging elephants aside, I don't think lesser forms of animal life were ever that great of a concern to the Forerunner. They were never in direct danger of being consumed by the Flood and thus were probably not a high priority for the Forerunner.

Getting one or two of a planet's species, who are vaslty technologically/socially/culturally inferior, into the Ark would be hard enough. I can't imagine trying to ferry a whole ecosystem's worth of bugs, birds, fish and the like.

  • 07.22.2009 11:50 AM PDT
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Seven is the greatest number. It's got references everywhere! And it wouldn't surprise me if it was the answer to existance. (42 is in the 7 times table, all you hitchhikers fans will know.)

The animals would then need to evolve again from whatever was left, that could be aided by the increased rate of evolution that the forunners could provide. Although what confuses me is that the forunners took us to the ark (with them?). And if they are all dead, the ark can't have been out of range, then we would be dead too! Unless they did survive, returned us home, but there were so few of them that they could not live on. They then became extinct in as we grew into higher sentience.

  • 07.22.2009 11:53 AM PDT
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Seven is the greatest number. It's got references everywhere! And it wouldn't surprise me if it was the answer to existance. (42 is in the 7 times table, all you hitchhikers fans will know.)

I suppose taking the whole ecosystem is a bit 'far out', but with the instantanious and fairly safe method of transport the portal provided, it can't have been that much hastle to save a little more than just us. maybe they could have taken the next species most likely to atcheive sentience.

  • 07.22.2009 11:56 AM PDT

Posted by: OPTIMASH_SLIME
The animals would then need to evolve again from whatever was left, that could be aided by the increased rate of evolution that the forunners could provide. Although what confuses me is that the forunners took us to the ark (with them?). And if they are all dead, the ark can't have been out of range, then we would be dead too! Unless they did survive, returned us home, but there were so few of them that they could not live on. They then became extinct in as we grew into higher sentience.


Firstly, the Forerunner did not have the ability to control the speed of evolution. They were a Tier 1 Tech species or "World Builders" (1). Yes, they were able to create the Halos and navigate the Galaxy at extremely high speeds, but they still did not possess the ability to manipulate evolution. Thus, what ever was brought into the Ark had to have been very close to making the evolutionary leap into sentience, if not already there. This explains why humans IRL gained sentience roughly 100,000 years ago (according to fossil records).

As for the issue of there being no Forerunner left, we touched on this briefly earlier in the thread and can be explained simply by logistical efficiency.
The core of the Ark was protected by advanced Forerunner shields that blocked, among other things, communication signals. Because of this, it would only make sense that the Forerunner would have to be outside of this protective area to index the galaxy and simultaneously wage an interstellar war against the Flood. The war had already been going on for centuries and had undoubtedly taken a toll on the population level of the Foreunner (the primary combatants).
That they were forced to activate the Rings at all would suggest that the decision was made under only the most dire of circumstances: the imminent threat of the Flood breaching the Ark's defenses, or at least those of one of the portals.
So, following this line of reasoning, it would seem that those Forerunner remaining at the time of the Array's activation were within it's blast radius, defending the Ark, and were destroyed. Once the Flood was given ample time to "starve" and degenerate, it would be only a matter of AI-led Forerunner machines shepherding those saved species back to their home worlds.

Posted by: OPTIMASH_SLIME
I suppose taking the whole ecosystem is a bit 'far out', but with the instantanious and fairly safe method of transport the portal provided, it can't have been that much hastle to save a little more than just us. maybe they could have taken the next species most likely to atcheive sentience.


Not necessarily. I admit the "entire ecosystem" example was a bit much. However, consider that the Ark had one, single planetoid at it's center. One planet for a galaxy's worth of sentient life. Barring the issue of pure numbers, the level of logistical issues involved would make the whole process almost impossible. How would they keep the different species from killing each-other over land or cultural differences. What about immune systems and any bacteria that one species might carry with it to the Ark? Humanity has a strong resistance to hundreds if not thousands of types of microbes on Earth but that does not mean another race has the same immunity to the same bugs.

Making sure all of this is taken care of would be hard enough. In my opinion, it would not be worth it to bring dolphins or horses along too just in case they happened to evolve within a few thousand years.

  • 07.22.2009 3:55 PM PDT
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Seven is the greatest number. It's got references everywhere! And it wouldn't surprise me if it was the answer to existance. (42 is in the 7 times table, all you hitchhikers fans will know.)

I agree, but when i said bring animals, i only meant from earth not all over the galaxy. Simply because, as you said, its impossible. especially with the pressure from the flood, they can't have picked up any being they fancied to survive. They had their eyes set on us, all i can say is thanks for saving us and not some purple squid on a random world.

  • 07.22.2009 4:09 PM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution (V2)
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I know what you do

cuz i do it to

Wow dude that is a great wall of text i skimed over i will save it and read it all the way...

  • 07.22.2009 7:10 PM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution V2.2!

Posted by: SpoonGuard
In Terminal #1, on legendary difficulty, the player is presented with a short narrative from the perspective of Mendicant Bias. In it, he describes his initial journey outside of the Maginot Sphere and the events that transpired over the planet code-named CE-10-2165-d's:



Creators. The Gravemind is openly stating that he was, in fact, created by another race. Not evolved from, but built, designed, made by the hands of others. And unless there is another hyper-advanced race of beings that has gone completely unmentioned up to now, those creators must be the Precursor.


Its not Gravemind talking about his creators its MENDICANT BIAS, you state that at the top opf the page.

  • 07.22.2009 8:07 PM PDT