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  • Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution: V2.5
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution: V2.5
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: crazypandarmada
what im trying to say is what if the precursor are the flood because the only way you can accelerate life (example technology) is to be at war

look up inventions of the US civil war i think there was at least 100

What.

It's true that, for humanity, many of our revolutionary ideas come at periods of war. But that's not to say that the only time we've bettered ourselves was when we were killing each other. Inventions outside of wartime alone prove that. In fact, most of our inventions come outside of wartime, although some of the most important come during.

Even with that slight scrap of hope there, the Precursor need not be anything like us. They are trans-sentient beings from an entirely different galaxy; they might not be akin to us in the slightest.

  • 09.11.2009 2:19 PM PDT
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Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: crazypandarmada
what im trying to say is what if the precursor are the flood because the only way you can accelerate life (example technology) is to be at war

look up inventions of the US civil war i think there was at least 100

What.

It's true that, for humanity, many of our revolutionary ideas come at periods of war. But that's not to say that the only time we've bettered ourselves was when we were killing each other. Inventions outside of wartime alone prove that. In fact, most of our inventions come outside of wartime, although some of the most important come during.

Even with that slight scrap of hope there, the Precursor need not be anything like us. They are trans-sentient beings from an entirely different galaxy; they might not be akin to us in the slightest.



For the war part. He is correct. We made progress in flight technology 5 times faster than we would have in peace time. The Cold War resulted in the US government to actually fund space research substantially. War fuels progress 10 times faster than peace time does, contrary to popular belief.


This is where I think you are mistaken Snakie. The Halo universe is about mans fight for meaning, peace, and survival. We know the Forerunner are like us in many ways. They had the same feelings and emotions, as well as the way they think, and how there judgment can be clouded. Some evidence even suggest they even looked like us. We also know the Forerunner adopted there ways, maybe directly or indirectly. But they did. We know the Forerunner where searching for mysteries of there own past, and that humans might be the key. We know precursors are absent of this galaxy. Put it together logically and you have a lose conclusion. That humans and Forerunner may be related to each other by a common ancestor. I believe that these aliens that are more similar to us than we dare to imagine.....


Genesis:" And He created us in his image"

  • 09.11.2009 2:57 PM PDT
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Sry, double posted reply.

[Edited on 09.11.2009 2:59 PM PDT]

  • 09.11.2009 2:58 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Agustus
Well, firstly, I acknowledged that wartime leads to increased development. All I said was that wartime is not the only time when science advances.

Also, the "Precursor made us as their legacy, Forerunner know it, blah blah" theory has been done before, in this very thread in fact. Good thinking, but it's assuming that this theory is correct. At least, for the most part.

  • 09.11.2009 3:19 PM PDT

You

Intresting very intresting.

  • 09.11.2009 4:50 PM PDT
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Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: Agustus
Well, firstly, I acknowledged that wartime leads to increased development. All I said was that wartime is not the only time when science advances.

Also, the "Precursor made us as their legacy, Forerunner know it, blah blah" theory has been done before, in this very thread in fact. Good thinking, but it's assuming that this theory is correct. At least, for the most part.


Kind of relates to my theory there a little. Sry.



:D

  • 09.12.2009 8:38 AM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution V2.2!

"Be Prepared and Semper Fi do or die"

Wow! That is some of the deepest thinking I have ever seen into the halo universe. I am truly awed, and thank you for sharing it. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it and cataloging it into my memory banks.

  • 09.18.2009 9:16 PM PDT

"Be Prepared and Semper Fi do or die"

My favorite idea from halo is the fact that humanity has one central government. I think we should try to apply that principle to our world before the next big conflict that claims millions of more lives. United Earth Government!

  • 09.18.2009 9:19 PM PDT

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if you guys dont mind my input i think that the flood were a mistake whilst the percursor were getting cozy as new members of tier 0. they tried to accelerate life and they failed thus the flood

  • 09.18.2009 9:48 PM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution: V2.5

"Eyes from Death's dream kingdom appear as sunlight on a broken column. There, in Death's other kingdom, walking alone, trembling lips form prayers to broken stone."

I don't know if this has already been said here, but I think that the Flood are actually the Precursors.

The Flood, or at least the Gravemind, seems to be EXTREMELY intellegent, almost omniscient. Also, the Flood are extra galactic in origin. And the Precursors had the ability to create galaxies and accelerate evolution of life. If the Flood knew how to do this, it would be of great benefit to them as they could turn bacteria into sentient being which they could eat, which would give them a constant, steady supply of food. Also, remember what the Gravemind said? "Do I take life or GIVE IT!"

  • 09.19.2009 5:18 AM PDT

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Posted by: mr 3l1te
"Do I take life or GIVE IT!"

both o_O

  • 09.19.2009 12:16 PM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution (V2)
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some of this is very close to the theory I've formulated...

  • 09.19.2009 12:39 PM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution: V2.5

"Eyes from Death's dream kingdom appear as sunlight on a broken column. There, in Death's other kingdom, walking alone, trembling lips form prayers to broken stone."

Posted by: thecobracomandr
Posted by: mr 3l1te
"Do I take life or GIVE IT!"

both o_O
lol true.

  • 09.19.2009 2:33 PM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution (V2)
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Very intriguing. This is the best, and most convincing, theory I've come across to explain the flood. Nice evidence.

  • 09.19.2009 5:09 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: clarkis117
Wow! That is some of the deepest thinking I have ever seen into the halo universe. I am truly awed, and thank you for sharing it. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it and cataloging it into my memory banks.

Well that's an interesting way of putting it, but you're welcome.


Posted by: thecobracomandr
if you guys dont mind my input i think that the flood were a mistake whilst the percursor were getting cozy as new members of tier 0. they tried to accelerate life and they failed thus the flood

The technological tiers say that the Precursor had the ability to advance evolution, though. If they tried one time and failed, they wouldn't have that ability. The Flood were either purposeful, or a mistake that happened later on in their experimentation.


Posted by: Z4477
some of this is very close to the theory I've formulated...

Well then you're pretty smrat. Or insane, like me. It's probably the latter. Don't you love the littler bird that always chirps at your shoulder?


Posted by: SketchTeno
Very intriguing. This is the best, and most convincing, theory I've come across to explain the flood. Nice evidence.

Barely any evidence at all, the way that I look at it, but I tried. Thanks.

  • 09.20.2009 5:52 AM PDT
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Posted by: Lord Snakie
The Flood were either purposeful, or a mistake that happened later on in their experimentation.


I opt for the latter, pretty much just because I can't imagine a bunch of floodies running around the planet all nice and friendly. I don't know if you changed this but I remembered you saying some like

"The flood wouldn't attack the living because it's in there DNA. They would eventually "resist" this code and attack live precursors".

Well the problem with that is they would be able to resist if there was a gravemind. The resistance of natural urges needs sentient thought. Now if the flood where "programmed" to only attack the dead, they sure as hell don't seem to have a problem consuming the brains of the living in Halo: CE, when there was no gravemind.

So im guessing either
1. You are correct about the floods use but they would have had to be contained, and bodies taken to them
2. They where a pure experiment that went horribly wrong, creating a creature that was neither living nor dead. Thus sealing there own demise, and damning the galaxy to an age-long struggle for survival. I opt for this one.

  • 09.22.2009 1:17 PM PDT

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I read all of it, and this is what I'll say.

wat?

  • 09.22.2009 8:21 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Agustus
The Gravemind - the first Gravemind - would have broken the restrictions placed upon the Flood when it finally encountered the "rampancy barrier" and breached it. If they're connected, which we know them to be, the restrictions would have been broken on all Flood. Regardless of whether or not a Gravemind exists in any time after that, their restrictions are gone.

  • 09.23.2009 12:54 PM PDT
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Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: Agustus
The Gravemind - the first Gravemind - would have broken the restrictions placed upon the Flood when it finally encountered the "rampancy barrier" and breached it. If they're connected, which we know them to be, the restrictions would have been broken on all Flood. Regardless of whether or not a Gravemind exists in any time after that, their restrictions are gone.




Instinct can only be controlled and over come by sentient thought. Once the gravemind falls apart there flood is almost purely animal like. Thus making it give in to instincts, like consuming all biological matter, alive or dead. But when the gravemind forms it can over come this if needed, such is the case in Halo 2. When the gravemind saves the chief and arbiter, knowing they could be of use.

For example: Just because a human over comes some kind of urge, doesn't mean his kid will be naturally immune to it. If it was written into flood DNA, not to attack living things, then they would follow this "programming" in early stages of release, when there is no consciousness. This is obviously not the case in Halo: CE.

  • 09.23.2009 5:39 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Agustus
Instinct can only be controlled and over come by sentient thought. Once the gravemind falls apart there flood is almost purely animal like. Thus making it give in to instincts, like consuming all biological matter, alive or dead. But when the gravemind forms it can over come this if needed, such is the case in Halo 2. When the gravemind saves the chief and arbiter, knowing they could be of use.

For example: Just because a human over comes some kind of urge, doesn't mean his kid will be naturally immune to it. If it was written into flood DNA, not to attack living things, then they would follow this "programming" in early stages of release, when there is no consciousness. This is obviously not the case in Halo: CE.

You're still thinking in traditional means. You yourself said that the Flood have the ability to "evolve" themselves and regulate their evolution, to an extent, and I agree with you. If the Gravemind became sentient, he could harness that power to overwrite that portion of their DNA entirely.

Or, failing that, the Gravemind on Installation 05 is a possible answer to the conundrum, as well. The time that that Gravemind has existed is questionable, but it's a possibility that it existed during the events on Installation 04, and its sentience allowed it to overrule the Flood's natural habits.

  • 09.23.2009 6:01 PM PDT
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Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: Agustus
Instinct can only be controlled and over come by sentient thought. Once the gravemind falls apart there flood is almost purely animal like. Thus making it give in to instincts, like consuming all biological matter, alive or dead. But when the gravemind forms it can over come this if needed, such is the case in Halo 2. When the gravemind saves the chief and arbiter, knowing they could be of use.

For example: Just because a human over comes some kind of urge, doesn't mean his kid will be naturally immune to it. If it was written into flood DNA, not to attack living things, then they would follow this "programming" in early stages of release, when there is no consciousness. This is obviously not the case in Halo: CE.

You're still thinking in traditional means. You yourself said that the Flood have the ability to "evolve" themselves and regulate their evolution, to an extent, and I agree with you. If the Gravemind became sentient, he could harness that power to overwrite that portion of their DNA entirely.

Or, failing that, the Gravemind on Installation 05 is a possible answer to the conundrum, as well. The time that that Gravemind has existed is questionable, but it's a possibility that it existed during the events on Installation 04, and its sentience allowed it to overrule the Flood's natural habits.


Another way to look at it in terms of sentient thought is much like the Geth of Mass Effect. The more of them in a given area, the more processing power they have and the "smarter" they become. This would work in a similar fashion with the Flood in that the more organic life they consume, the more "processing power" they attain. When they reach a certain level, a "critical mass" a gravemind is formed.

How this ties into your theory is that they Precursors would have created the Gravemind(G1) to store information as you stated. Logically, they would have needed to created some type of interface, more likely than not it would need to be organic in nature (as to what extent is unknown). These could have been simple spores that store information much like DNA stores information. If this is the case than a single spore could contain vasts amount of knowledge. Eventually, with the transfer of this data to the Gravemind from spores across the galaxy/universe, he would attain sentient status as you say.

Now, this is where it changes some. I seem to recall an old "Beachhead" theory a few years and this is a bit of an adaptation of it. With the vast amount of data that these spores can hold, it would be very plausible that a large number of spores were sent to the Milky Way at which point they began their collection again until this critical mass was reached yet again, resulting in the creation of another Gravemind(G2) in this galaxy. Now, at first glance you might assume that G2 has the exact same information as G1, however with an organic life form serving as a storage device, degredation of information is going to naturally occur as the organic form begins to slowly break down. These spores didn't need to last long as the Gravemind was the primary storage device, like the hard drive of a computer compared to a CD (spore).

The implications of this would be that upon encountering the Forerunner, the Flood would still have retained some knowledge of advanced tactics, technology, etc. This would give them an immediate advantage over the Forerunner and this coupled with the tactical information they would gain from consuming Forerunners would be enough to allow them to, fairly easily, defeat the Forerunner in a short amount of time. With the firing of the Halos and the dieing out of most flood forms of life, most of this original information from G1 would be lost except for a few spores that were kept in statis for testing.

The oldest data would most likely die out first seeing as how it is the oldest and being organic based life forms, the older something is the more decay it experiences. This is the same with Forerunner technology which eventually gets to the point where little remains of G2. This would explain why in combating Humans and Covenant, the new Gravemind (G3) met with success though not on the scale that G2 did with the Forerunner. G3 had almost no data the technology of the original and had to learn most everything from Humanity and the Covenant, resulting in a somewhat balanced war (again, relative to the Forerunner conflict).

I belive an application like this gives more plausibility and applicability to your theory. Evidence is good, however the test comes when you apply a theory to cases where we know the outcome to see if a similiar outcome can be obtained or if the outcome can be explained with the model which yours appears to fulfill quiet well.

  • 09.24.2009 3:44 AM PDT
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Posted by: Terian1414
Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: Agustus
Instinct can only be controlled and over come by sentient thought. Once the gravemind falls apart there flood is almost purely animal like. Thus making it give in to instincts, like consuming all biological matter, alive or dead. But when the gravemind forms it can over come this if needed, such is the case in Halo 2. When the gravemind saves the chief and arbiter, knowing they could be of use.

For example: Just because a human over comes some kind of urge, doesn't mean his kid will be naturally immune to it. If it was written into flood DNA, not to attack living things, then they would follow this "programming" in early stages of release, when there is no consciousness. This is obviously not the case in Halo: CE.

You're still thinking in traditional means. You yourself said that the Flood have the ability to "evolve" themselves and regulate their evolution, to an extent, and I agree with you. If the Gravemind became sentient, he could harness that power to overwrite that portion of their DNA entirely.

Or, failing that, the Gravemind on Installation 05 is a possible answer to the conundrum, as well. The time that that Gravemind has existed is questionable, but it's a possibility that it existed during the events on Installation 04, and its sentience allowed it to overrule the Flood's natural habits.


Another way to look at it in terms of sentient thought is much like the Geth of Mass Effect. The more of them in a given area, the more processing power they have and the "smarter" they become. This would work in a similar fashion with the Flood in that the more organic life they consume, the more "processing power" they attain. When they reach a certain level, a "critical mass" a gravemind is formed.

How this ties into your theory is that they Precursors would have created the Gravemind(G1) to store information as you stated. Logically, they would have needed to created some type of interface, more likely than not it would need to be organic in nature (as to what extent is unknown). These could have been simple spores that store information much like DNA stores information. If this is the case than a single spore could contain vasts amount of knowledge. Eventually, with the transfer of this data to the Gravemind from spores across the galaxy/universe, he would attain sentient status as you say.

Now, this is where it changes some. I seem to recall an old "Beachhead" theory a few years and this is a bit of an adaptation of it. With the vast amount of data that these spores can hold, it would be very plausible that a large number of spores were sent to the Milky Way at which point they began their collection again until this critical mass was reached yet again, resulting in the creation of another Gravemind(G2) in this galaxy. Now, at first glance you might assume that G2 has the exact same information as G1, however with an organic life form serving as a storage device, degredation of information is going to naturally occur as the organic form begins to slowly break down. These spores didn't need to last long as the Gravemind was the primary storage device, like the hard drive of a computer compared to a CD (spore).

The implications of this would be that upon encountering the Forerunner, the Flood would still have retained some knowledge of advanced tactics, technology, etc. This would give them an immediate advantage over the Forerunner and this coupled with the tactical information they would gain from consuming Forerunners would be enough to allow them to, fairly easily, defeat the Forerunner in a short amount of time. With the firing of the Halos and the dieing out of most flood forms of life, most of this original information from G1 would be lost except for a few spores that were kept in statis for testing.

The oldest data would most likely die out first seeing as how it is the oldest and being organic based life forms, the older something is the more decay it experiences. This is the same with Forerunner technology which eventually gets to the point where little remains of G2. This would explain why in combating Humans and Covenant, the new Gravemind (G3) met with success though not on the scale that G2 did with the Forerunner. G3 had almost no data the technology of the original and had to learn most everything from Humanity and the Covenant, resulting in a somewhat balanced war (again, relative to the Forerunner conflict).

I belive an application like this gives more plausibility and applicability to your theory. Evidence is good, however the test comes when you apply a theory to cases where we know the outcome to see if a similiar outcome can be obtained or if the outcome can be explained with the model which yours appears to fulfill quiet well.


That was logical. But I would like to point out a few things. A spore would not hold memories, the individual cells would. Now we know the flood can enter hibernation and remain "alive" for large amounts of time. Now the G1 gravemind would die lets say. A precursor ship travels to this galaxy and is burned to a crisp from entry into an atmosphere. Only spores and cells survive. Now because of the large amount of data a cell can hold (we cannot even begin to comprehend this today) all the memories of the gravemind can be held in just 1 cell or a few at least.

These cells would multiply and the DNA survive, completely intact. Once it reaches that "critical mass", it is my belief that flood colonies start develop neurons. Before those memories where practically dormant, like Cortana inside her chip. It holds all her data but she cannot "run" unless plugged into a source with sufficient processing power and energy. These neurons would tap into the memories, in little bits at a time. They would communicate with each other, and through unknown means, "order" the countless flood forms. These neurons would continue to grow in all flood forms, creating a hive mind connected through what appears to be telepathic communication. These neurons also explain how the flood can interface with electronics. The nerve endings could grow on circuits and use electronic pulses to activate the machine. This is being done today with rat neurons and basic circuitry.

I remember bring up the point of the Flood overwriting its own DNA, which you rejected in favor of "over coming there urge". We don't know how far flood can communicate with each other, but I doubt a gravemind can do so from another ring. Even if it could send signals that far the halo flood would have been more organized. It was clearly the early stages of growth, uncoordinated local attacks and swarms. In "343 guilty spark" The flood reacts in small groups, not as a complete whole. As compared to Halo 3 when they all seem to converge on your position and almost "sense" when your near (probably because your stepping all over there flood gloop). The Halo: CE flood only start becoming organized when a pregravemind forms. They start focusing on the ship, and collect bodies.

  • 09.24.2009 1:05 PM PDT
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Posted by: Terian1414
Very well spoken, thank you for the praise and for your personal theory.

Moving along to your theory, speaking of which, I find it to be incredibly intriguing. It seems to explain perfectly what happened in the Flood's infection and destruction of the Milky Way galaxy over the years, with only a few gaps, and it makes perfect scientific and biological sense. The gaps, however, do exist (or at least seem to). One of the largest of those gaps is how the Gravemind seems to remember so (relatively) much from the Forerunner-Flood war, and his veiled hints that he remembers further back than that. If a biological storage system were implemented, you would think that at least some of that data had degraded. Enough would be left, possibly, to remember the war, but not much further back than that. The only thing that really makes that theory possible, as I see it, is that the Gravemind only hints that he knows more than that at all; there's no proof he actually does.

Even with those slight problems - and they only truly become problems if more information is discovered and it proves that the Gravemind truly does know more - your theory is miraculous. I'll include it in the OP the moment I have a chance.

  • 09.24.2009 1:14 PM PDT
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Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: Terian1414
Very well spoken, thank you for the praise and for your personal theory.

Moving along to your theory, speaking of which, I find it to be incredibly intriguing. It seems to explain perfectly what happened in the Flood's infection and destruction of the Milky Way galaxy over the years, with only a few gaps, and it makes perfect scientific and biological sense. The gaps, however, do exist (or at least seem to). One of the largest of those gaps is how the Gravemind seems to remember so (relatively) much from the Forerunner-Flood war, and his veiled hints that he remembers further back than that. If a biological storage system were implemented, you would think that at least some of that data had degraded. Enough would be left, possibly, to remember the war, but not much further back than that. The only thing that really makes that theory possible, as I see it, is that the Gravemind only hints that he knows more than that at all; there's no proof he actually does.

Even with those slight problems - and they only truly become problems if more information is discovered and it proves that the Gravemind truly does know more - your theory is miraculous. I'll include it in the OP the moment I have a chance.


He dose hint that he knows more. I agree with Wolverfrog that Humans are somehow directly link to precursors, as the gravemind himself discribes.

Child of my enemy, why have you come? I offer no forgiveness, a fathers sins, pass to his sons...

The flood would lose memory over time, but not as much I think as he says. It could still remember the precursors and there destruction perhaps, but not the exact specifics of there technology. Because a single cell carries all that information, it would continue to learn and multiply. Every cell would eventually contains the same information, as long as it stays intact physically. But it backs up the theory that the flood where a "living database". Able to absorb a millennium's worth of information in a single cell to access later.

He says that the flood are weaker in Halo 3 which I don't believe to be true. The flood is only as advance as its advisory is. Like the covenant, it is not innovative, but imovative. It only has the covenant technology at hand, there ships and weapons. The flood doesn't go around making there own stuff, that would take time. There tactic is to strike quickly, and lethally, causing disary and chaos before an adequate defense can be prepared. It has to consume continually to remain active, so it doesn't have time to construct better weapons.

He is describing it as one set of cells contains G1 knowledge while others contain G2 and G3. The flood are a hive mind. The cells share knowledge. As long as one survives it contains all the information from the previous cells.

  • 09.24.2009 1:40 PM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution: V2.5
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Posted by: Agustus

I would have to say that the spores would most likely use the DNA as a storage device for the information though perhaps the Precursors did not add the ability for Flood to multiple their stored information as it was expected that this information would eventually be "dumped" into the "database". The only real need for multiplying would be so that they can restore these "blank slates" with which to store more information, or to replicate their own DNA. Essentially, this would leave 3 types of cells:

Blank Slate Cell

Used for storing information in the form of DNA types of strands to be later extracted and added to the Gravemind.


Stored Cell

These are Blank Slate Cells that have be "filled" with information to the point where new information is stored in a new cell.


Flood DNA

This is the general lifeform DNA that every organic has specific to its own particular organic structure



I do also like the additional support you give for the Flood growing progressively "smarter" as they draw closer to the critical mass. It does seem very much like the Geth in terms of its increased intelligence as their numbers grow.

Posted By: Lord Snakie, Agustus

As to the extent that this "memory loss" would occur, I would make an addition in saying that, much like memory degredation that we experience, the Gravemind/Flood still have the general memories though specific are for the most part lost. For example, I still remember Calcus from high school and my first year of college, though I can not remember the specifics such as formulas and rules.

In this same sense, the Gravemind would be able to remember the Precursors and the Forerunner though not the specifics of how their technology works (much as Agustus said).




[Edited on 09.24.2009 9:55 PM PDT]

  • 09.24.2009 9:54 PM PDT