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  • Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution: V2.5
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution: V2.5
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Terian1414
As to the extent that this "memory loss" would occur, I would make an addition in saying that, much like memory degredation that we experience, the Gravemind/Flood still have the general memories though specific are for the most part lost. For example, I still remember Calcus from high school and my first year of college, though I can not remember the specifics such as formulas and rules.

In this same sense, the Gravemind would be able to remember the Precursors and the Forerunner though not the specifics of how their technology works (much as Agustus said).

Good call, when I edit the OP with the theory I'll be sure to include it. That actually essentially deals with our issues on the Flood forms attacking living hosts while the Gravemind was not present at Installation 04, along with virtually all of the problems with memory loss. This is shaping to be a great inclusion.

  • 09.25.2009 2:02 PM PDT
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Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: Terian1414
As to the extent that this "memory loss" would occur, I would make an addition in saying that, much like memory degredation that we experience, the Gravemind/Flood still have the general memories though specific are for the most part lost. For example, I still remember Calcus from high school and my first year of college, though I can not remember the specifics such as formulas and rules.

In this same sense, the Gravemind would be able to remember the Precursors and the Forerunner though not the specifics of how their technology works (much as Agustus said).

Good call, when I edit the OP with the theory I'll be sure to include it. That actually essentially deals with our issues on the Flood forms attacking living hosts while the Gravemind was not present at Installation 04, along with virtually all of the problems with memory loss. This is shaping to be a great inclusion.


Yet there is a problem with all of that. The flood isn't like a human as he describes it. Memories are stored as electric impulses in our neurons. Now there are theories that it also becomes stored in DNA. This explains why Spartans can "remember" Forerunner/Covenant symbols from a past life. It is oddly familiar to them, because its in there DNA from Forerunners (or precursors?). This also backs that Forerunners inter-matted with Humans. There DNA was passed to us so when seeing there symbols and language it awakens dormant DNA.

Now when the Flood absorbs someone, Terian is saying it is stored in the Flood's DNA. DNA memory can't be "forgotten", if you know how memory works. Our "past life memories" would be in every cell of our body. While our "normal" memories are electric impulses that can eventually form DNA if important enough (in theory). So the Flood, having control over its DNA and evolution can not "forget" like we can. When a memory is made, it is stored in a neuron. If it isn't important then that neuron stops communicating with the others around it. So the "arms" (synapses) that connect it to the others die, isolating that cell and thus "forgetting" that memory.

The only way the flood can forget is by physical decay of DNA and RNA. If someone is absorbed by the flood, it gathers there memories from its neurons. Then stores them in its DNA. This is the only way to explain how different generations of Graveminds can remember before it reformed. So in essence, there is, and ha only been one Gravemind. "Reincarnated" multiple times. But it has the same thoughts, memories, goals and agenda, as well as personality.

  • 09.25.2009 2:19 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Agustus
Yet there is a problem with all of that. The flood isn't like a human as he describes it. Memories are stored as electric impulses in our neurons. Now there are theories that it also becomes stored in DNA. This explains why Spartans can "remember" Forerunner/Covenant symbols from a past life. It is oddly familiar to them, because its in there DNA from Forerunners (or precursors?). This also backs that Forerunners inter-matted with Humans. There DNA was passed to us so when seeing there symbols and language it awakens dormant DNA.

Now when the Flood absorbs someone, Terian is saying it is stored in the Flood's DNA. DNA memory can't be "forgotten", if you know how memory works. Our "past life memories" would be in every cell of our body. While our "normal" memories are electric impulses that can eventually form DNA if important enough (in theory). So the Flood, having control over its DNA and evolution can not "forget" like we can. When a memory is made, it is stored in a neuron. If it isn't important then that neuron stops communicating with the others around it. So the "arms" (synapses) that connect it to the others die, isolating that cell and thus "forgetting" that memory.

The only way the flood can forget is by physical decay of DNA and RNA. If someone is absorbed by the flood, it gathers there memories from its neurons. Then stores them in its DNA. This is the only way to explain how different generations of Graveminds can remember before it reformed. So in essence, there is, and ha only been one Gravemind. "Reincarnated" multiple times. But it has the same thoughts, memories, goals and agenda, as well as personality.

Eh, DNA degradation is quite possible. Cancer in humans is merely DNA degradation in a cell to an extreme effect, and mutations in cells happen so often that the number of times per day cannot accurately be calculated, our cells merely have the ability to repair them. If similar mutations and damage occurred to Flood cells, but they could not repair them for whatever reason, it would be quite possible that cellular degradation could cause damage to their stored memories.

Or, if you want to go beyond that, it's also possible that the Flood's spores function as semi-telepathic neurons, the "synapses" existing in no-contact-necessary manner. Doesn't really sound likely, but I'm just talking out loud here. There are plenty of possible explanations.

  • 09.25.2009 2:48 PM PDT
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Glad to see that there is some more serious discussion on this thread than there was last time. I read through all the theories and most seem very well stated, any idea when the next version will be up Snakie?

  • 09.26.2009 2:16 PM PDT
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Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: Agustus
Yet there is a problem with all of that. The flood isn't like a human as he describes it. Memories are stored as electric impulses in our neurons. Now there are theories that it also becomes stored in DNA. This explains why Spartans can "remember" Forerunner/Covenant symbols from a past life. It is oddly familiar to them, because its in there DNA from Forerunners (or precursors?). This also backs that Forerunners inter-matted with Humans. There DNA was passed to us so when seeing there symbols and language it awakens dormant DNA.

Now when the Flood absorbs someone, Terian is saying it is stored in the Flood's DNA. DNA memory can't be "forgotten", if you know how memory works. Our "past life memories" would be in every cell of our body. While our "normal" memories are electric impulses that can eventually form DNA if important enough (in theory). So the Flood, having control over its DNA and evolution can not "forget" like we can. When a memory is made, it is stored in a neuron. If it isn't important then that neuron stops communicating with the others around it. So the "arms" (synapses) that connect it to the others die, isolating that cell and thus "forgetting" that memory.

The only way the flood can forget is by physical decay of DNA and RNA. If someone is absorbed by the flood, it gathers there memories from its neurons. Then stores them in its DNA. This is the only way to explain how different generations of Graveminds can remember before it reformed. So in essence, there is, and ha only been one Gravemind. "Reincarnated" multiple times. But it has the same thoughts, memories, goals and agenda, as well as personality.

Eh, DNA degradation is quite possible. Cancer in humans is merely DNA degradation in a cell to an extreme effect, and mutations in cells happen so often that the number of times per day cannot accurately be calculated, our cells merely have the ability to repair them. If similar mutations and damage occurred to Flood cells, but they could not repair them for whatever reason, it would be quite possible that cellular degradation could cause damage to their stored memories.

Or, if you want to go beyond that, it's also possible that the Flood's spores function as semi-telepathic neurons, the "synapses" existing in no-contact-necessary manner. Doesn't really sound likely, but I'm just talking out loud here. There are plenty of possible explanations.



The Synapses actually make sense. It would be how the flood communicate on the molecular level. Flood cells are some times described as "super" cells. Perhaps they can all function as a neuron, both physically and telepathically.

EDIT: And I think the Flood can repair its cells like us, but also like us for a limited time. DNA eventualy degrades from free radicals, radiation and other environmental forces. After a certain period of no new nutrients, the flood would not be able to keep up with the damage beying done to the DNA. After entering hibernation, which would slow the effect substantially, the result would be loss of detailed memory. But as long as a single cell contains one of those memories when the flood awakens, it will "share" it with the other cells. For example:

There are memories 1 and 2. Then there are cells A and B. Cell A contains memory 2, while cell B contains memory 1. They awaken from hibernation, and upon establishing contact, they "send" each other there memories. Like a computer backing up a file. Now both cells contain both memories, and the memory won't be lost if one of the cells die. When a gravemind forms it can "upload" all these memories and making living sense of them.

[Edited on 09.26.2009 3:21 PM PDT]

  • 09.26.2009 3:15 PM PDT

It's ya boy GrandMasta. If you are here then it's prolly cause you are a hatin nerd who has a small weiner.

I'm really happy with how they turned out. So please rate, comments, and feel free to make suggestions.
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  • 09.26.2009 6:54 PM PDT

Posted by: GrandMastaTrack
I'm really happy with how they turned out. So please rate, comments, and feel free to make suggestions.
Radiant
Spectrum
Recon snipers

My fileshare


Not the place... Show some respect. Lord Snakie has come up with a great theory, one could argue was straight from the Halo Bible itself and you go and do something such as this.

I have a question. You said that it was a possibility that the Precursors sent some of their people to the Milky Way Galaxy because they thought differently of the Flood. After the Flood destroyed the Precursors the Milky Way group changed their name because they were shameful of what their people had done.

In the Halo 3, 343 Guilty Spark says to John 117 after killing Sergeant Avery Johnson that Humans ARE Forerunner. Does this mean that there was either a group of Forerunner who decided against what the Milky Way Forerunner (Precursor) had decided to do in response to the Flood Out-Break or do you think that only a few Forerunner from the Milky Way Galaxy survived long enough to be Human?

I'm sorry if that was worded badly but I hope you get the question.

  • 09.26.2009 7:54 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Person25
Glad to see that there is some more serious discussion on this thread than there was last time. I read through all the theories and most seem very well stated, any idea when the next version will be up Snakie?

As soon as I sketch out the full addition to explain the Flood's origins and whatnot, along with sub-sections describing the other possibilities for how the Flood lost memory, I'll have it up. It could be as much as a week; I don't have that much time on my hands nowadays. I'll try to make it as brief as possible.


Posted by: Agustus
Good points once again, when I update the thread I'll make sure to add the non-contact synapses in as a sub-theory. It would also explain how the Flood could communicate over such vast distances, at least on a planet or on a ship. Beyond an enclosed environment it doesn't explain anything, but it could be part of the picture.


Posted by: CrippleFox
Not the place... Show some respect. Lord Snakie has come up with a great theory, one could argue was straight from the Halo Bible itself and you go and do something such as this.

No worries, anybody who spams my threads like this get a friendly visit from a moderator.

I have a question. You said that it was a possibility that the Precursors sent some of their people to the Milky Way Galaxy because they thought differently of the Flood. After the Flood destroyed the Precursors the Milky Way group changed their name because they were shameful of what their people had done.

In the Halo 3, 343 Guilty Spark says to John 117 after killing Sergeant Avery Johnson that Humans ARE Forerunner. Does this mean that there was either a group of Forerunner who decided against what the Milky Way Forerunner (Precursor) had decided to do in response to the Flood Out-Break or do you think that only a few Forerunner from the Milky Way Galaxy survived long enough to be Human?

I'm sorry if that was worded badly but I hope you get the question.

Personally, I think a small group of Precursor escaped after the Flood outbreak and made it to the Milky Way. They were reminiscent of the Forerunner, and could reproduce with them, but they were also different enough to merit a different name, and that was why the Forerunner said that we held the keys to the mysteries of their own past. We're the remnants of the last pure Precursors alive, mayhap.

  • 09.26.2009 8:58 PM PDT

I see. I love threads like this with something intelligent to say. The Rookies name is also another great thread with some pretty solid evidence.

  • 09.27.2009 12:49 AM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

Posted by: CrippleFox
I see. I love threads like this with something intelligent to say. The Rookies name is also another great thread with some pretty solid evidence.


Yeah. Who is that devilishly smart and handsome fellow? I wonder...

[Edited on 09.27.2009 1:23 AM PDT]

  • 09.27.2009 1:11 AM PDT

Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: CrippleFox
I see. I love threads like this with something intelligent to say. The Rookies name is also another great thread with some pretty solid evidence.


Yeah. Who is that devilishly smart and handsome fellow? I wonder...


Talking about me now? Yeah, my Precursors are humanity thread is pretty awesome.

XD

  • 09.27.2009 2:07 AM PDT
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Some can come away from reading "War and Peace" thinking it a simple adventure story, while others can read the ingredients on a gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe.

Posted by: Wolverfrog
Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: CrippleFox
I see. I love threads like this with something intelligent to say. The Rookies name is also another great thread with some pretty solid evidence.


Yeah. Who is that devilishly smart and handsome fellow? I wonder...


Talking about me now? Yeah, my Precursors are humanity thread is pretty awesome.

XD


XD


And yes, I think wolverfrogs thread makes sense, as well as ties in with this one and mine if true.

I see know why you where left behind. You where weak, and gods must be strong...

It is commonly thought that Truth thinks the rings activate a great journey. But as Wolver said himself in one of his threads he may have known more. Why else would he send tartarus to activate Halo and just leave? Because he knew something we didn't, firing the rings he thought might have activated the true great journey (my thread). But im going off topic here.

  • 09.27.2009 9:15 AM PDT

In the past few minutes, I have just been bowled over by the sheer depth of the Halo series. I find the all the human stuff boring, because it's usually just people jacking-off to how awesome Spartans are. This however, is far more interesting.

  • 09.27.2009 10:16 AM PDT

You say that the Precursors were the only race to be able to create and manipulate life while the Forerunners were not able to. How can this be true if Hurogok [Engineers] are created by the Forerunners?

  • 09.27.2009 11:41 AM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Hellduck
In the past few minutes, I have just been bowled over by the sheer depth of the Halo series. I find the all the human stuff boring, because it's usually just people jacking-off to how awesome Spartans are. This however, is far more interesting.

I aim to please!


Posted by: CrippleFox
You say that the Precursors were the only race to be able to create and manipulate life while the Forerunners were not able to. How can this be true if Hurogok [Engineers] are created by the Forerunners?

That's an excellent question. The Precursor were not the only race to be able to create life, per say, simply because the Forerunner created the Huragok. The Precursor did, however, have the monopoly on being able to accelerate evolution. So the Forerunner are be able to genetically engineer the Huragok, who seem to be synthetic/organic hybrids. For a Tier 1 race, that's not too hard; they're synth/organic, essentially AIs with some flesh. Genetically creating some flesh and tying it in with synthetic parts, and giving programming allowing existing Huragok to construct more. Pretty simple.

The Precursor, however, could take a fly and accelerate its evolution to such a degree that you had a fly from 1,000,000 years in the future. They had a masterful understanding of genetics and life, and could quite probably have created a race (the Flood). They would not just be making a race that could replicate itself by constructing new members, they could create a race that could reproduce normally, or at least without need for "construction". They might even have achieved something previously unheard of in the Flood; the first organic AI, the Gravemind.

  • 09.27.2009 12:02 PM PDT

Mmm. Makes sence. I suppose humans ourselves could make a fairly crappy but still organic looking AI today so it would have been enjoying desert to the Forerunners to make one.

[Edited on 09.27.2009 12:13 PM PDT]

  • 09.27.2009 12:12 PM PDT

Posted by: Lord Snakie
the first organic AI, the Gravemind.


Wouldn't an organic AI be oxymoronic? Surely if it's actually alive then it would be genuine intelligence, as oppossed to artificial intelligence.


Unrelated: On the subject of genetic engineering: we'd probably be pretty damn good at just now, were it not for religion and false-morality hold us back.

[Edited on 09.27.2009 12:28 PM PDT]

  • 09.27.2009 12:26 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Hellduck
Wouldn't an organic AI be oxymoronic? Surely if it's actually alive then it would be genuine intelligence, as oppossed to artificial intelligence.

Good catch, it definitely sounds that way at first. But think about it. Even though the Gravemind is made and sustained completely on organic material, his DNA would have been written by the Precursor, much like a computer program. From the start, his intelligence and knowledge was put in very defined barriers, and was created. He is organic, but he is an Artificial Intelligence, because his mind was made in a very precise manner.

  • 09.27.2009 12:28 PM PDT

Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: Hellduck
Wouldn't an organic AI be oxymoronic? Surely if it's actually alive then it would be genuine intelligence, as oppossed to artificial intelligence.

Good catch, it definitely sounds that way at first. But think about it. Even though the Gravemind is made and sustained completely on organic material, his DNA would have been written by the Precursor, much like a computer program. From the start, his intelligence and knowledge was put in very defined barriers, and was created. He is organic, but he is an Artificial Intelligence, because his mind was made in a very precise manner.


I would call it engineered intelligence, as oppossed to artificial. It's still alive, thus meaning the intelligence would be genuine. If sentience is genetic (unlikely) then it would just be genetic engineering.

  • 09.27.2009 12:32 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Hellduck
I would call it engineered intelligence, as oppossed to artificial. It's still alive, thus meaning the intelligence would be genuine. If sentience is genetic (unlikely) then it would just be genetic engineering.

That's a better name for it, you're correct. But the majority of people understand the term "AI" better than they would "EI". I might edit the OP to include a few references of it, just to comment that the Gravemind isn't a true mechanical AI, but that's about the extent of the room I have, I think.

  • 09.27.2009 12:54 PM PDT

Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: Hellduck
I would call it engineered intelligence, as oppossed to artificial. It's still alive, thus meaning the intelligence would be genuine. If sentience is genetic (unlikely) then it would just be genetic engineering.

That's a better name for it, you're correct. But the majority of people understand the term "AI" better than they would "EI". I might edit the OP to include a few references of it, just to comment that the Gravemind isn't a true mechanical AI, but that's about the extent of the room I have, I think.


Cool. It's obvious you've put an immense amount of thought into this.

  • 09.27.2009 12:59 PM PDT

From Cyro to Meta

i love this thread bro, i saved it and i am going to read it over a couple times so i can comprehend all of this, but i dont know if i missed this part, but i am curious of who created the The Precursor, or are they like mythical beings?

  • 09.27.2009 1:14 PM PDT
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I just had a thought, not much of one but still a thought.

I haven't read up on the Forerunners in a while so if anything is wrong just tell me.

What if the Precursor made the Forerunners? Let's say after the Flood, the Precursors wanted to make more. Since *at that time* the Flood was stable, they wanted to expand on it and create an actual being. So they did this, and sent them to a planet for them to grow naturally and study. During this time of study the Flood turned against the Precursor not knowing about the new project. The Precursor studying the young Forerunner "colony" would have found out and would have fled somewhere the Flood could not reach an abandoned their project. So the Flood never found the last of the Precursors, or the new Forerunners. Then however many years later, the Forerunner/Flood war starts.

Now let's say the Gravemind confuses the Master Chief up with Forerunners as 343 Guilty Spark did. This would make sense, because the Gravemind is an AI he could go rampant as SPark did. That may explain the Father's sins sentence (can't remember the exact quote). This could mean the Forerunners may have descended from Precursors, and the Gravemind was talking about the Precursors sins.



I know it is a long shot, but until more evidence of the Forerunners surface next year, it is still technically possible.

[Edited on 09.27.2009 5:18 PM PDT]

  • 09.27.2009 5:16 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: monkyw1thagun
i love this thread bro, i saved it and i am going to read it over a couple times so i can comprehend all of this, but i dont know if i missed this part, but i am curious of who created the The Precursor, or are they like mythical beings?

The Precursor were probably just organic beings that evolved beyond our understanding into trans-sentience. They're not mythological - it's been confirmed that they exist - but they're still beyond our typical understanding.


Posted by: Person25
I think it's much more likely that the Forerunner/Precursor "Lord of the Rings" scenario occurred, then a small group of surviving Precursor escaped the Precursor-Flood war and fled to the Milky Way galaxy, becoming Humans. That would explain practically everything, to be honest.

  • 09.27.2009 6:30 PM PDT

I'm going to fully read the OP now, just so I don't ask questions that have already been answered.

[Edited on 09.28.2009 2:14 AM PDT]

  • 09.28.2009 1:52 AM PDT