Bungie Universe
This topic has moved here: Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution (V2)
  • Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution (V2)
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution (V2)

Name used to be "HaloNathan"... weird.
I blame stosh.
How do I feel about your comment? Click HERE to find out.
For hilarity and Unggoy madness, check out my filshare video: Happy Birthday Mr. Grun7!
Oh by the way, did I forget to mention? It's rendered! All for viewers like you! ^

You stole what I was thinking! This basically a longer more well informed post of my ideas. lol I wasn't the first to think of this idea anyways. Great post!

  • 02.16.2010 3:41 PM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution: V2.6

I don't understand why you're looking at my profile. Just back off, and nobody gets hurt, okay?

Fascinating. 10/10.

  • 02.17.2010 12:17 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Guilty Spark says this in Halo 3 "You are the child of my makers. Inheritor of all they left behind. You are Forerunner."


Humans are Forerunner.2

  • 02.17.2010 5:44 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Sighphi
Guilty Spark says this in Halo 3 "You are the child of my makers. Inheritor of all they left behind. You are Forerunner."


Humans are Forerunner.

Yes, well, about that.

If you're going to be posting in this forum, you should probably learn a bit more about the universe surrounding it. While Guilty Spark does indeed say that, several parts of the canon disagree with that statement. It's become rather commonly accepted that 343GS was either completely incorrect with his statement, or there's a piece of the puzzle missing.

My topic here tries to fill in that piece.

  • 02.17.2010 1:18 PM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution (V2)
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

I dont know how you came up with this hell of a job. I got smarter reading this.

  • 02.19.2010 7:54 PM PDT

Si-!

I just recently went and looked at a lot of the material from the Halo 3 ARG campaign. From some of the text it appears as if the Forerunners encountered the Flood instead of creating it.

I saw this because there were parts that had foreunners discussing what the origins of the flood were, whether they were from another galaxy. Also, it seems as if they discovered that the flood had a central mind. This would contradict your theory that the Precursors used the Gravemind as a central intelligence for dead Precursors.

It would only work if the branch of Foreunners somehow "forgot" what the flood were used for in the first place.

  • 02.22.2010 4:00 PM PDT

Five years older and wiser
The fires are burning, I'm fire, never tire
Slay warriors in the forests, and on hire

Have you updated this with the new information fron Origins I & II?

  • 02.23.2010 3:26 AM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution: V2.6
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Moose427
I just recently went and looked at a lot of the material from the Halo 3 ARG campaign. From some of the text it appears as if the Forerunners encountered the Flood instead of creating it.

I saw this because there were parts that had foreunners discussing what the origins of the flood were, whether they were from another galaxy. Also, it seems as if they discovered that the flood had a central mind. This would contradict your theory that the Precursors used the Gravemind as a central intelligence for dead Precursors.

It would only work if the branch of Foreunners somehow "forgot" what the flood were used for in the first place.

1. That's not a core part of my theory in the first place. That the Forerunner are somehow related to the Precursor is the main idea of this theory, where it expands upon it further.

2. The Forerunner would've left the galaxy where the Precursor originated before the Flood was fully created, or perhaps just shortly afterwords. They would've been away from that galaxy for thousands of years; it's possible that they did, indeed, have no records remaining by the time the Flood reached the Milky Way.


Posted by: ApocalypeX
Have you updated this with the new information fron Origins I & II?

None of Origins conflicted with this theory, so no updates were necessary.

[Edited on 02.23.2010 6:06 PM PST]

  • 02.23.2010 6:05 PM PDT

--- You Dead, Thanks For Playing ---

Snakie, I believe I have a hole to poke in your theory that the Gravemind was created by the Precursors as an organic information storage unit.

If the Gravemind were created by the Precursors to collect information from the few deceased, how would he have learned all of the advanced military and naval strategies needed to later combat the Forerunners, or even the Precursors themselves?

This question assumes that the Precursor society was near perfect at the time of the conception of the Gravemind of course, so if that assumption is bad, tell me.

  • 02.23.2010 6:54 PM PDT

Citizens of Me! The cruelty of the old Pharaoh is a thing of the past. Let a whole new wave of cruelty wash over this lazy land.

Hear the word of Pharaoh. Build unto me a statue of ridiculous proportion. One billion cubits in height......that I might be remembered for all eternity!

And be quick about it!

Good theory, I believe it, but what if the Precursors decided to make the Flood and dump them on the Forerunners as a joke?! It was an april fools day 200,000 years ago... lol

[Edited on 02.23.2010 7:34 PM PST]

  • 02.23.2010 7:30 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Satauje
Snakie, I believe I have a hole to poke in your theory that the Gravemind was created by the Precursors as an organic information storage unit.

If the Gravemind were created by the Precursors to collect information from the few deceased, how would he have learned all of the advanced military and naval strategies needed to later combat the Forerunners, or even the Precursors themselves?

This question assumes that the Precursor society was near perfect at the time of the conception of the Gravemind of course, so if that assumption is bad, tell me.

Good point, but we don't have enough solid info to make too much of a judgment on this at this point. It's possible that the Precursor had wars in the past and the Gravemind absorbed their knowledge over them and gained some minor gleaming of tactical insight, or (if he was, indeed, an EI) was able to work out how to fight on his own.

It's also possible that the only reason the Flood won against the Precursor was because of the surprise attack, and that they failed against the Forerunner because the Forerunner had some smidgeon of tactical capabilities when the Flood, before absorbing Forerunner, had none.

  • 02.23.2010 7:37 PM PDT

--- You Dead, Thanks For Playing ---

Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: Satauje
Snakie, I believe I have a hole to poke in your theory that the Gravemind was created by the Precursors as an organic information storage unit.

If the Gravemind were created by the Precursors to collect information from the few deceased, how would he have learned all of the advanced military and naval strategies needed to later combat the Forerunners, or even the Precursors themselves?

This question assumes that the Precursor society was near perfect at the time of the conception of the Gravemind of course, so if that assumption is bad, tell me.

Good point, but we don't have enough solid info to make too much of a judgment on this at this point. It's possible that the Precursor had wars in the past and the Gravemind absorbed their knowledge over them and gained some minor gleaming of tactical insight, or (if he was, indeed, an EI) was able to work out how to fight on his own.

It's also possible that the only reason the Flood won against the Precursor was because of the surprise attack, and that they failed against the Forerunner because the Forerunner had some smidgeon of tactical capabilities when the Flood, before absorbing Forerunner, had none.

If he were EI (which I believe means he learns instead of does what's programmed, right?), would they really program him with the ability to learn military strategies? Unless EI learns everything it can in genral of course...
Plus, didn't Gravemind have all Forerunner knowledge thru Mendicant Bias? Or at least a whole heck of alot?

[Edited on 02.23.2010 8:06 PM PST]

  • 02.23.2010 8:05 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Satauje
If he were EI (which I believe means he learns instead of does what's programmed, right?), would they really program him with the ability to learn military strategies? Unless EI learns everything it can in genral of course...

Plus, didn't Gravemind have all Forerunner knowledge thru Mendicant Bias? Or at least a whole heck of alot?

Let me ask you a question in turn; can you program an AI not to learn something? Of course not, not if you want to maintain performance. You can program one not to act on what it learns, but it's much more difficult (and perception-based; one person views something as a threat while another would view it as perfectly safe) to program one not to understand something, and harmful to performance. Plus, any restrictions placed upon the Gravemind's higher functions would have preformed this duty and more. The Precursor were likely unconcerned with it, especially considering programming in such a function would have left huge gaps in the data they could access.

As for the Forerunner, Gravemind learned much from MB, but that was late in the war, and he could understandably not gain everything. Mendicant wasn't organic, and could not fully be put under the sway of the Gravemind, merely encouraged to serve him. Analogy: if you're familiar with the Lord of the Rings, Sauron to Morgoth (or the Witch-King to Sauron) is an accurate comparison of Mendicant to the Gravemind.

  • 02.23.2010 8:14 PM PDT

--- You Dead, Thanks For Playing ---

Posted by: Lord Snakie
Let me ask you a question in turn; can you program an AI not to learn something? Of course not, not if you want to maintain performance. You can program one not to act on what it learns, but it's much more difficult (and perception-based; one person views something as a threat while another would view it as perfectly safe) to program one not to understand something, and harmful to performance. Plus, any restrictions placed upon the Gravemind's higher functions would have preformed this duty and more. The Precursor were likely unconcerned with it, especially considering programming in such a function would have left huge gaps in the data they could access.

As for the Forerunner, Gravemind learned much from MB, but that was late in the war, and he could understandably not gain everything. Mendicant wasn't organic, and could not fully be put under the sway of the Gravemind, merely encouraged to serve him. Analogy: if you're familiar with the Lord of the Rings, Sauron to Morgoth (or the Witch-King to Sauron) is an accurate comparison of Mendicant to the Gravemind.

Definitely a very valid point, especially with tht EI, but (and I'm enjoying this discussion quite a bit btw), in creating the Gravemind as an EI construct, were they aware of The Flood's ability to terraform? I'm sure that they couldn't have wished to create such a sickly and unsanitary environment for their knowledge. That may be being a bit nitpicky though...

I suppose a more viable question would be how the Precursors would access information from the Gravemind?

  • 02.24.2010 4:03 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Satauje
Definitely a very valid point, especially with tht EI, but (and I'm enjoying this discussion quite a bit btw), in creating the Gravemind as an EI construct, were they aware of The Flood's ability to terraform? I'm sure that they couldn't have wished to create such a sickly and unsanitary environment for their knowledge. That may be being a bit nitpicky though...

I suppose a more viable question would be how the Precursors would access information from the Gravemind?

That... that, I do not know. I always assumed that the Gravemind would be wired into a larger computer network that could recover the knowledge that any given Precursor wanted. I don't really know how that would work.

  • 02.24.2010 4:06 PM PDT

--- You Dead, Thanks For Playing ---

If I were to take a stab at it, I would assume that:
The Gravemind (or smaller infection form?) would begin a smaller scale version of the infection process, but instead of overriding the nervous system and assimilating, it would put in information thru the spinal cord instead of remove it. That seems plausible enough, right?

EDIT: Sorry I just noticed now that you got asked this a page ago <:D I hadn't read back. I hope this is plausible enough to fit into your theory

[Edited on 02.24.2010 4:15 PM PST]

  • 02.24.2010 4:11 PM PDT

Some interesting theories, Snakie, but would you willing to consider another alternative? If we are to accept the Halo Encyclopedia, for the most part, as canon then there may one other route that we can pursue.

In the Encyclopedia, we have a relatively brief description of the halo timeline, namely the events surrounding the Forerunners and their discovery of, and war against, the Flood. But one section in particular is of significant note. It concerns the Forerunners creation of the Mantle, which as we all know is their stewardship of the lesser advanced races around them and throughout the galaxy. But the small paragraph does mention "Previously advanced races". This would suggest that the Precursors were not the only advanced species before the Forerunners came to power.

Could this suggest that not only did the Precursors achieve a form of trans-sentient existence, but so did several other species as well? Or - possibly - have we simply been misinterpreting the term "Precursors" as a single species instead of thinking of them as a group or collective, similar to the Covenant, of other advanced species'?


Side note: I like the idea of the Gravemind as an organic computer.

  • 03.04.2010 4:48 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: MaxRealflugel
Some interesting theories, Snakie, but would you willing to consider another alternative? If we are to accept the Halo Encyclopedia, for the most part, as canon then there may one other route that we can pursue.

In the Encyclopedia, we have a relatively brief description of the halo timeline, namely the events surrounding the Forerunners and their discovery of, and war against, the Flood. But one section in particular is of significant note. It concerns the Forerunners creation of the Mantle, which as we all know is their stewardship of the lesser advanced races around them and throughout the galaxy. But the small paragraph does mention "Previously advanced races". This would suggest that the Precursors were not the only advanced species before the Forerunners came to power.

Could this suggest that not only did the Precursors achieve a form of trans-sentient existence, but so did several other species as well? Or - possibly - have we simply been misinterpreting the term "Precursors" as a single species instead of thinking of them as a group or collective, similar to the Covenant, of other advanced species'?

I don't remember that line Max, can I get a page cite so I can look over the entire thing?

Depending upon the context of the quote, this is indeed interesting data. The Precursors might now be a single race, but indeed multiple races or, as you said, perhaps even a collective. I don't know if all of these races would've achieved trans-sentience, but it's worth taking a look at the quote in-context to see if it provides any more clues.

  • 03.04.2010 3:34 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Exalted Heroic Member

you're naut cookin'

I really like this theory and the use of Halo knowledge. Its a great discussion and theory.

I wanted to raise something, about The Floods ability to store information and the longevity of that. If the flood spores you mentioned do rot and disappear, hence the loss of information, how would it make sense for a tier 0 race to construct a data storage unit that would need constant maintenance.

I was also thinking, a super advanced race, more advanced than the Flood, that can use some version of telepathy, would have other ways of 'downloading' a deceased's memories.

They are Transsentient, and like you said, that doesn't quite mean Godhood or omnipotence, but this whole theory is based on the idea that they had bodies, died and didn't already have a system of sharing thoughts and experiences (which The Flood do).

I still really do like this theory, it just seems to me, to make no sense in investing memories to a giant infectious biomass, with which there are so many flaws that would have been addressed in creation. Do the Precursors even need AI or EI?

  • 03.04.2010 3:38 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: kippa
I wanted to raise something, about The Floods ability to store information and the longevity of that. If the flood spores you mentioned do rot and disappear, hence the loss of information, how would it make sense for a tier 0 race to construct a data storage unit that would need constant maintenance.

The Flood Spores would actually be an ingenious backup, not the primary route of memory storage. That, of course, would be the Gravemind. The Flood Spores themselves would be used as backup neurons, that the current Gravemind could put memories into and excrete in case it were eventually destroyed, so the new Gravemind form could rise up with much of the memories of its sire. In essence, immortality of Gravemind.


I was also thinking, a super advanced race, more advanced than the Flood, that can use some version of telepathy, would have other ways of 'downloading' a deceased's memories.

They are Transsentient, and like you said, that doesn't quite mean Godhood or omnipotence, but this whole theory is based on the idea that they had bodies, died and didn't already have a system of sharing thoughts and experiences (which The Flood do).

I still really do like this theory, it just seems to me, to make no sense in investing memories to a giant infectious biomass, with which there are so many flaws that would have been addressed in creation. Do the Precursors even need AI or EI?

You're thinking of the Precursor as more trans-sentient and less... flesh-and-blood, as I do. Which is perfectly acceptable, because the trans-sentient moniker was something that wasn't wholly explained in the Beastarium, but this theory assumes that they possess a bit more of the flesh-and-blood aspect. The ability to make mistakes, a reliance on AIs and EIs, no telepathy, et cetera.

If you read the companion theory here, it tells a bit more about why I think this, and it talks a bit about how not all of the Precursor might've been "duped" by the Flood plan.

  • 03.04.2010 3:50 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Exalted Heroic Member

you're naut cookin'

Posted by: Lord Snakie
You're thinking of the Precursor as more trans-sentient and less... flesh-and-blood, as I do. Which is perfectly acceptable, because the trans-sentient moniker was something that wasn't wholly explained in the Beastarium, but this theory assumes that they possess a bit more of the flesh-and-blood aspect. The ability to make mistakes, a reliance on AIs and EIs, no telepathy, et cetera.

If you read the companion theory here, it tells a bit more about why I think this, and it talks a bit about how not all of the Precursor might've been "duped" by the Flood plan.


I guess I am thinking of them differently. I figure that it makes sense to keep the transsentient aspect in play, I see it as the most important part of their description. They can travel between galaxies and quicken evolution, but they have evolved to transsentience themselves. Thats massive. To go past sentience, what does that even mean? To have an understanding of everything? To perceive not only yourself but the universe as well?

I'm still not sure, unless the Flood has different features that were never revealed during the war, that a species so evolutionarily and technologically advanced would need to rely on organic technology to store past generations experiences. Even the spores used as a back-up are too risky to entrust with such a massive task. I'm finding it hard not to just say "they could've just used super awesome computers" because that seems too derivative of our technology. It seems to me that they would be using technology beyond our comprehension, if they were do to something like this.

I mean no insult by this, its just how I think of it. I know I'm not really participating, but I want to know if you have any theoretical... theories.


[Edited on 03.04.2010 4:28 PM PST]

  • 03.04.2010 4:28 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: kippa
I guess I am thinking of them differently. I figure that it makes sense to keep the transsentient aspect in play, I see it as the most important part of their description. They can travel between galaxies and quicken evolution, but they have evolved to transsentience themselves. Thats massive. To go past sentience, what does that even mean? To have an understanding of everything? To perceive not only yourself but the universe as well?

Again, you're thinking deeper into it than I do. Which isn't a bad thing, like I said before, but I take a mild view of trans-sentience; more like understanding some of the complex questions that we can never bring ourselves to understand (such as, for example, how the universe began) than being omnipotent or aware of everything around them. This entire theory is founded on the basis that the Precursor could make flaws, which has not been proven yet. If they can't, then I admit freely that all of this is wrong.


I'm still not sure, unless the Flood has different features that were never revealed during the war, that a species so evolutionarily and technologically advanced would need to rely on organic technology to store past generations experiences. Even the spores used as a back-up are too risky to entrust with such a massive task. I'm finding it hard not to just say "they could've just used super awesome computers" because that seems too derivative of our technology. It seems to me that they would be using technology beyond our comprehension, if they were do to something like this.
What is a "memory"? It's just an electrical impulse lazily traveling a neuron, a bit of data in a complex, organic, electrical-based brain. Did the Precursor have something like this, a brain that functioned as ours do? My other theory about the spread of the Precursor suggests that we are inherently related, so I say that it's likely (especially judging that brains like that seem to be the norm of the sentient galactic community, excluding Lekgolo, which might have a ganglia-based intelligence), but that is also not necessarily true. If it isn't, again, this theory is virtually completely inaccurate.

How does a memory get preserved by a computer? Computers and brains run on electricity, but the parts aren't compatible. There's no USB that can be plugged into our minds that allows us to interface with a computer, at least not yet. The brain is too complex, multi-layered, and simply different for such a thing to occur.

That is why I came up with this hypothesis based upon the Flood. The Flood is organic, they have the parts just like we do, and they can interface with a human mind when no computer can. They can go in, gain the memories and intelligence of their host, and disseminate it back to a core that the Precursor believed fully in control. The Gravemind was the compatible computer, and each infection form is like a wireless uplink. Rather than making a mind-to-computer USB, the Precursor simply made an organic computer with trillions of parts.


I mean no insult by this, its just how I think of it. I know I'm not really participating, but I want to know if you have any theoretical... theories.
Think nothing of it, discussing and debating this theory is a favorite hobby of mine. It's why I made it in the first.

[Edited on 03.04.2010 4:53 PM PST]

  • 03.04.2010 4:52 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Exalted Heroic Member

you're naut cookin'

Okay, well its a great theory, both of them are very good reads.

Also! There totally are computer/brain interfaces already. I remember seeing a news story about quadriplegic people being able to type by having a connection cable planted into their brains.

Youtube search shows something similar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCSSBEXBCbY

  • 03.04.2010 5:00 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: kippa
Also! There totally are computer/brain interfaces already. I remember seeing a news story about quadriplegic people being able to type by having a connection cable planted into their brains.

Youtube search shows something similar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCSSBEXBCbY

Eh, typing is different from actual memory transfer. That's far, far into the future if it's even possible at all. And one must remember that the Halo universe's capabilities are different than those of our own universe. For example, the Halo universe has weapons (Assault/Battle rifles, etc.) that are actually worse than our own current weapon technology.

  • 03.04.2010 5:14 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Exalted Heroic Member

you're naut cookin'

They also have neural implants that allow you read information across the inside of your eye.

  • 03.04.2010 5:19 PM PDT