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This topic has moved here: Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution (V2)
  • Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution (V2)
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Duardo
I think that the precursors BECAME the Flood. I think the Forerunner's attacked them first, and the precursor's found a way of immortality, but with side effects: The Flood.

That's why they had that thousand year war and whatnot.

...well, I suppose that would be a reason. But why in the good Lord's name would the Forerunner have attacked a species not only more powerful than them but with an entirely different thinking process? Not to mention the Mantle; the Forerunner are dedicated to preserving life, not destroying it. Not unless they have to.


Posted by: paulmarv
Read the whole thing- very interesting. Made me think.

Although we know so little about the Precursors, you managed to tie our knowledge of the Flood into a very possible scenario involving them.
It seems to me that the theory rests on the assumption that this inanimate Gravemind would suddenly become intelligent with more and more information being given to it, so with that assumption the theory makes sense, however I would be interested to hear more about how that process works in the future.

Well I hope that the AI/Library Computer comparisons helped. That's about as intricate a description I can come up with for what I'm thinking, and even then it's merely a theory. I can't really make it more detailed, to be honest. Not unless some more thinking on that subject comes around, which I certainly hope for.


Posted by: Reptilian Rob
Once again, great article Snakie.

Although I'm pretty sure the Precursors and Forerunners are coming back, soon.

Thanks Rob. And yes, I certainly hope the Precursor are coming soon. The Forerunner trilogy might provide what we seek in that aspect.

- - -

Posted by: Reptilian Rob
Did you steal a page out of my Halo bible?

Shame on you Duardo!

No, he came up with something off the top of his head and it turned to make no sense within the Halo universe. Or at least it makes no sense as far as I can see....

- - -

Posted by: Reptilian Rob
IMO the Precursors handed down the Mantle to the Forerunners long before "The Flood" were ever encountered. My belief (one that stands pretty static with Halo lore) is that the Precursors foresaw their ultimate fate and handed down the Mantle in an effort to preserve their legacy. In a sense they saw "The Flood" threat far ahead of the actual event and tried to warn the Forerunners with "The Mantle" beforehand.

There is actually a text verse in "Contact Harvest" that pretty much confirms this, even though it comes off as vague.

I actually had at one point a massive three post thread about this, it's been lost for a good two years though.

Rob, I'd be very grateful if you could find that thread for me. It would interest me beyond belief if I could see more information, even if vague, about events that were even rumored to occur during this time period. Even the slightest bit of information could be critical to the theory.


Posted by: MA5C 7RUTH
I respect how you respond to every post given in this thread.
Not many people do that.
Extra bonus points for the theory and for being a good person.

Hmm, I didn't think I'd be congratulated for keeping up with replies on my thread, I couldn't imagine ever not keeping up with the replies here. Regardless, thank you for your support, sir.


Posted by: Hitaniceberg28
I like this one, the precursors used their evolving powers to accelerate themselves into the flood. That would make them the ultimate life form and they should be able to control the forerunner AI though.(343 & Mendicant Bias)

First, their evolution into the Flood is improbable, at least from Duardo's point of view. Second, how would evolution into the Flood create a situation where they could more readily take advantage of Forerunner AI? And third, when was 343 G.S. ever taken advantage of by the Flood?

  • 05.22.2009 8:02 PM PDT

Plekpedia - The most epic site in the history of ever.

*claps*

I didn't think it was possible, but you made your theory better.


I hope we find out everything someday.

I'll try to help think of things...

Best theory: Your main theory.


Coolest theory: Precursor are Flood.

However, I'll go with the best theory, which is cool also. :)

[Edited on 05.22.2009 8:08 PM PDT]

  • 05.22.2009 8:05 PM PDT

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Posted by: Duardo
I think that the precursors BECAME the Flood. I think the Forerunner's attacked them first, and the precursor's found a way of immortality, but with side effects: The Flood.

That's why they had that thousand year war and whatnot.



Good job on the theory! :D


Some part of me would love to believe the Flood evolved out of something the Precursors did until ultimately the Flood were driven back and forced to create some form of technology that would nearly eliminate themselves from the universe. A Halo type weapon whose technology was later adapted and re-engineered by the Forerunner to eliminate themselves as a potential food source for the flood in hopes that it would starve the Flood.

Its an interesting concept to think of the Flood as the creators of the original idea that would ultimately leave them victim to their own sins so to speak. Hell, imagine if the Flood are the reason the mantle was passed on to the Forerunner. Maybe they wanted to grow their own food but somehow were halted due to their weakness and weren't able til some time later. Eventually the Forerunner became the sinners in the Flood's eyes by ignoring the flood's agenda for them and using the Rings to kill themselves off thus starving the flood again.

All of the ideas are interesting that are on the table. Barely anything is known so guessing is all we can do in this case.

I really do have to applaud this one from you Snakie. I am a fan of the concept youve laid out. It may be far off, but for now, with the knowledge we know, its as good a guess as any and one that I am rather fond of.

[Edited on 05.22.2009 8:47 PM PDT]

  • 05.22.2009 8:26 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Pokezilla Linked
I didn't think it was possible, but you made your theory better.

To be honest, the structure of the past theory was pretty poor from the beginning. There wasn't a whole lot of extra space and it really hurt the theory later on in its life. The new structure with more space makes the entire thing better.


Posted by: Reptilian Rob
I'll keep trying to find it, or re-write it.

If you decide to re-write it, there's no rush, remember.


Posted by: x Lord Revan x
I really do have to applaud this one from you Snakie. I am a fan of the concept youve laid out. It may be far off, but for now, with the knowledge we know, its as good a guess as any and one that I am rather fond of.

Thanks, Revan. From the information we have I tend to believe that the accumulation of information we have here yields some relatively possible results.

  • 05.22.2009 10:50 PM PDT



Posted by: Hitaniceberg28
I like this one, the precursors used their evolving powers to accelerate themselves into the flood. That would make them the ultimate life form and they should be able to control the forerunner AI though.(343 & Mendicant Bias)

First, their evolution into the Flood is improbable, at least from Duardo's point of view. Second, how would evolution into the Flood create a situation where they could more readily take advantage of Forerunner AI? And third, when was 343 G.S. ever taken advantage of by the Flood?


I was saying 343 as an example. If they were to accelerate themselves into the flood which would make the flood the ultimate life form like I said, then I would imagine that they can control AI.

  • 05.23.2009 7:14 AM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Hitaniceberg28
I was saying 343 as an example. If they were to accelerate themselves into the flood which would make the flood the ultimate life form like I said, then I would imagine that they can control AI.

I don't imagine the Flood in this situation being the ultimate life-form. The Flood would be a highly advanced collective inwardly, yes, but their functions outside that collective would always be brutal and lack technology unless they steal it. They have knowledge that could help them to manipulate AIs that are close to rampancy, certainly; look at Mendicant Bias. But I don't believe that they could "evolve" into a state where they could take advantage of any AI if functioning normally.

  • 05.23.2009 7:45 AM PDT

Ooh i read it all, but I still don't think I see the braingasm you promised.

  • 05.23.2009 3:57 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Reptilian Rob
What about Cortana? The Gravemind was hardly able to "control" her, rather it seemed he was destroying her.

I don't know about destroying her, Rob. I think it was more like she was split into two halves: one half being sane, the other being corrupted. When the Chief found her, she was able to slowly pull herself together until she was decent enough to function by the time they got off High Charity.

  • 05.23.2009 5:46 PM PDT

Fight with Glory...Die Gloriously


The Flood, an Experiment?:

The Precursor had the ability to accelerate evolution... what if they accelerated and manipulated the evolution of a parasitic species until they created not a weapon, but a municipal service?

Think about it- the Precursors were trans-sentient beings, deaths among them must be rare. Even so, death probably did occur, and that death would be a finality; everything that Precursor knew was gone, and over the span of its life it likely had revolutionary ideas that could help all of the Precursors, or at least memories or though processes that would be worth accessing. So, over time, Precursor genetic manipulators accelerated and enhanced the evolution of a biological species until they created a self-sustaining storage system that could reclaim the memories of the Precursor even after death. Infection forms roam about the streets of Precursor cities, seeking out the locations of any dead Precursors. When they took over a deceased's body, the information of that dead Precursor was transferred to the central Gravemind (keep that in mind: Grave - Mind. Mind of the grave) and all the other Precursors would be able to access it later. Since the corpses could be used to replenish the Gravemind with necessary flesh or be used to create more infection forms, it was a self-sustaining system. The Precursors would need not ever go without the memories and knowledge of their deceased ever again, and no longer would the dead bodies need to be put anywhere but the self-sustaining Flood memory retrieval system.

The Gravemind was likely not sentient at first, more like the central, living archive of all this information. When he became cognitive and sentient and realized that he was being used, he could have used the accumulated knowledge and forms that he had at his disposal to attack and destroy the Precursor in a massive, destructive surprise attack.

Think about this. If this is true, it means that the first Gravemind did not only possess an abundance of Precursor intelligence, it was created by the Precursor, made out of Precursors, and meant to absorb their intelligence. The Precursor in this situation would not only have made the beasts that killed them, they would have willingly done it, thinking in their arrogance and power that they were infallible. Not only would the Precursor have passed down their mantle to the Forerunner, they would be the very ones who began the cycle that caused the Forerunner and Humanity to be forced to take up that mantle.

I kind of think it could be true think about it. The Precursors have been mentioned that are related to humanity. As we all know Humanity allways liked to make tests and make things better but it allways turned arround against them. And that "desire" of creation has been passed on from them to "us".

  • 05.23.2009 6:41 PM PDT

Fight with Glory...Die Gloriously

Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: Reptilian Rob
What about Cortana? The Gravemind was hardly able to "control" her, rather it seemed he was destroying her.

I don't know about destroying her, Rob. I think it was more like she was split into two halves: one half being sane, the other being corrupted. When the Chief found her, she was able to slowly pull herself together until she was decent enough to function by the time they got off High Charity.

Again Lord Snakie as you said in your theory Gravemind tried to infect Cortana but he couldn't. If he did Gravemind would have found out about everything that Cortana contained in her database, most probably the dirty and naughty side of John-117.

  • 05.23.2009 6:44 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Reptilian Rob
They never came right out and said "she's rampant". I was always under the assumption that she was under attack by the Gravemind. Although it's hard to interpret, I hate to say it but Halo 3's story was all over the place.

It wasn't necessarily that bad; I agree that the outer plot acted a bit like TGP while he's downloading naughty movies (sorry TGP, you're the stereotypical guy that jumps around all the time), but the inner plot was pretty sound. "Go here because they're going to kill all life; go here because the Flood are going to kill all life; ally with the Flood because they're going to help you stop the other aliens that are going to kill all life; stop the Flood because they're going to try to kill all life again". Rather straightforward on the main stretch.

Despite the humor there, I have to agree that the "outer plot"- the random details that theorists love to gnaw on- were pretty scarce. We didn't get a whole lot of information that would've made our theories so much better. But I think it's sound enough to say that the Gravemind was manipulating her, and he was starting to win.

  • 05.23.2009 7:05 PM PDT

Posted by: Reptilian Rob
Posted by: BlueSkyfish
Ooh i read it all, but I still don't think I see the braingasm you promised.

He promised a braingasm?

Where was I?


He promised fangasm and braingasm simultaniously, even, while on msn.

I like the idea that precursors are the flood, rather than was beaten by the flood. I think they willingly became the flood to expand their knowledge further. If they were anything like humans are today, with an never ending thirst for knowledge, if you got the option to hook your brain up to the ultimate complete knowledge of everything everyone knew, would you decline? and after that connection has first been made you will be changed forever. After getting all that knowledge, all previous values are likely gone. they don't care about the physical body anymore, what is practical is what is used. Emotions will be put aside, there will only be the average of the emotions of all those parts that shaped the hive mind about any one situation. I wonder though, if flood would continue exploring when it had taken all the knowledge it could find, and wither it would mine for more bodies by letting species live.

  • 05.24.2009 2:44 AM PDT
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Iam enjoying Halo Reach and revisiting some past Bungie games, iam a big fan of Bungie and their online community.

Ive saved this thread so i can have an extensive look when i have more time but what i have seen is looking good.

  • 05.24.2009 3:09 AM PDT

Posted by: ElementalRunner

Posted by: Commander Stroll
Still using a pump-action shotgun over 500 years in the future I see.

omg not realistic stop game production plz

A very extensive theory! I read all of it, and the first thread. I think it's very possible actually - it does make more sense. But something makes me want to believe there's still some Precursors left out there in the Halo Universe.

On the subject of Precursors, I have a theory about Sandbox and Sandtrap. It's my belief that they are both Precursor structures, guarded by Forerunner towers. I think it's possible that the Forerunners greatly respected the Precursors and subsequently, after finding these Precursor structures, swore to protect them. Hence, we have towers with powerful Beam Cannons.

My evidence for this? Easy. The innner Precursor structures are much different to Forerunner buildings - they are made of what must be an extremely durable rock (to last way over 100,000 years) and differ in shape considerably. The outer structures look very Forerunner, being made of that same black metal alloy and with a correct shape. Also, these towers look very much like the Forerunner "Guardian" boss that was going to be a Campaign level.

  • 05.24.2009 3:44 AM PDT

Posted by: ElementalRunner

Posted by: Commander Stroll
Still using a pump-action shotgun over 500 years in the future I see.

omg not realistic stop game production plz

Extra evidence for Lord Snakie (Gravemind - a living AI?)

How does a supposedly "organic" being attack a digital and highly advanced program? It can't. There's only one answer.

The Gravemind is an AI. Therefore he has the digital compatability to "attack" Cortana and corrupt her.

  • 05.24.2009 3:48 AM PDT

wow this is very amazing!! you did a really good job on this!!

PS: you asked how the flood could have lost all that knowledge, right? simply: the rings have been lighted all at once several thousands of years ago ;)

  • 05.24.2009 3:59 AM PDT