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  • Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution: V2.6
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution: V2.6


Posted by: x Lord Revan x
Interesting theories, specifically citing the new additions since I read it a long time ago.

I'm still interested the most by the definition of trans-sentience. Everything is dependent upon that singular definition, at least in my eyes. The concepts you've laid out are interesting, but I find them to be more of wild fan-fiction of sorts. This is sorta my version of a wild fan-fiction-theory-compilation of sorts on the subject. Whatever you want to call it.

Personally, I look at trans-sentience as a breaking of the third dimension. The fourth dimension, time, becomes their native home at that point. Sentience is very grounded in the third dimension. We can conceptualize the 4th dimension, but we can't see it or truly understand it. Its beyond comprehension as are the others beyond that.

I think that trans-sentience symbolizes the shift from their existence within our dimension (the third dimension) to a fourth dimension (time), perhaps explaining their ability to manipulate evolution and their heightened intelligence. Their on a physically different plain of existence.

Its like the idea that if people existed on a two dimensional surface or were "flatlanders," they wouldn't really comprehend our third dimension. We'd be nearly invisible to their eyes much as the Precursors would be to our 3rd dimension.

I imagine the Precursors obtaining that level and essentially vanishing at that point to expand beyond the confines of this spiral galaxy. The Forerunner were probably close to this achievement, but were halted by the extragalactic Flood. I personally, for the sake of story, like to imagine the Flood without an origin to contain that sense of horror within them. Just my thoughts, bit unorganized and not heavily researched.

Sentience is being aware, aware of yourself, aware of your surroundings, etc. Sentience doesn't have anything to do with comprehension. Sure, we can't comprehend the 4th dimension, but we are aware that it exists and that it may be this or that. We don't need to comprehend something to be aware of it.

As such, I don't agree with your definition of trans-sentience. I believe you're talking about something else entirely, and wouldn't be what Bungie is referring to if they chose the word "trans-sentient".

  • 09.26.2010 8:16 PM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution (V2)

On a related note, ******'s mom has really nice boobs, and it doesn't take much booze or encouragement to get her to let the puppies out of the pen...if you know what I mean...

head asplodes

  • 10.02.2010 10:35 AM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution: V2.7

my first impresion of the flood when i played halo 1,2,and 3 was that the forerunners found the flood and tried doing exxperiments on them and got too carried away and thus began the forerunner flood war. After reading this thread and reading the books i belive the most logical theroy out there is the gravemind being a type of living AI going thru rampancy and was created by the precursor but a group disapproved of this and broke off into the milky way galaxy who became the forerunners.

  • 10.03.2010 7:33 PM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution: V2.6

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Posted by: Hysterical Joker
Sentience is being aware, aware of yourself, aware of your surroundings, etc. Sentience doesn't have anything to do with comprehension. Sure, we can't comprehend the 4th dimension, but we are aware that it exists and that it may be this or that. We don't need to comprehend something to be aware of it.

As such, I don't agree with your definition of trans-sentience. I believe you're talking about something else entirely, and wouldn't be what Bungie is referring to if they chose the word "trans-sentient".


Well, perhaps I should explain more. You're correct in stating that sentience is our ability to feel and perceive the world around us. It is essentially our consciousness and our ability to experience/know/have sensations. It is also highly thought of as intelligence itself.

But, all of that is grounded in this dimension. Everything we perceive, experience, know, feel, touch, is in the third dimension (or perhaps arguably lower). So, our sentience, our ability to perceive the world around us, our intelligence, the absolute sum of our being, is limited by the third dimension.

When I say tran-sentience, I mean the movement to a new level of intelligence through the breaking out of this dimension to the 4th dimension which encompasses time. Obviously, this is all hypothetical and adheres to some properties of string theory which is a theory.

The idea of time being the fourth dimension is something we can conceive of and comprehend to a limited degree...but not experience, truly perceive, or have sensations related to. Thats why I see transentience as a movement into the fourth dimension.

Hopefully that explanation is a bit better for those of you who might be interested in it. If not, feel free to think what you will. There's plenty of room for opinions. A theory is only just that, a theory.

  • 10.04.2010 2:05 PM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution (V2)

Hey i'm not very smart and don't play often so if I ask a stupid question bear with me please...

Obviously I reat the first three words and went, "WAT?" so saving is needed or I have no life :D

  • 10.08.2010 10:15 PM PDT
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Posted by: chotato
smart, interesting, seems out of place.


Official fan of Assassin's Creed, Call of Duty, (Problem with that?) Halo, and Bungie, also a total gaming junkie.

This changed the way I look at the Flood. Good job.

  • 10.10.2010 7:41 PM PDT

I'm happy to see this because a friend of mine and I came up with the same idea on our own. not nearly as thorough as what you have here but the same principle.
I also think that the precursers became humanity hafter losing there knowlege somehow (its up for debate) with the flood.

  • 10.11.2010 9:42 AM PDT

We were somewhere around Barstow...

Great read.

  • 11.08.2010 8:11 PM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution: V2.6
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''...but it's possible that the spores were also used to house fragments of the knowledge of the Gravemind.

If this is the case, the explanation for how the Flood lost all of their knowledge - and why the Flood were weak (comparatively) in Halo: CE through Halo 3 - has been handed to us. Organic material is known for degradation and decay over time; it is not entirely improbably that the reason the Flood lost much of their ability on coming to the Milky Way is that the first Gravemind they formed only recovered so much information from the original, due to degradation of the Flood Spores brought with the Milky Way infection.

If this is the case, it also explains why the current Gravmind hints that it knows about the Forerunner-Flood war, but cannot produce any significant detail about it. Humans remember general concepts, but not specifics. In the same way, the Gravemind likely lost the majority of the specific information, which is why the Flood is so relatively weak and easy to contain.''

Since you mentioned that Gravemind was going rampant, like Cortana, can't he be making facts, or lost those information over long and high quantities procession of data? Just like Cortana in Origins?

  • 11.09.2010 11:29 AM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: xxriffraff
Since you mentioned that Gravemind was going rampant, like Cortana, can't he be making facts, or lost those information over long and high quantities procession of data? Just like Cortana in Origins?

I would assume that an AI and an EI would behave differently. It's possible that the Gravemind could be doing so, but why would he be so close? There is very little knowledge remaining from that time that the Gravemind from 2552 would be interested in, so why would a Gravemind that didn't know anything about it even bother to make up facts? Why would those "made-up" facts be infallible? It's not that they're absolutely, assuredly right, because they're not (not necessarily), but we can't prove them wrong. That's either damn good guessing, or the Gravemind knows at least something about it.

  • 11.12.2010 11:49 AM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution: V2.7

I am writing this in response to the sheer feelings of resentment i have toward buying a copy of halo reach due to the updates that have been released.

I bought Halo reach purely for doubles. Playing doubles with my best friend has recently became a fav past time and when we got halo reach we were astonished at what the game had to offer. A class system. A system that itself brought us a new level of strategy that had to be endured through every game. This game at its original state was a utopia of entertainment.

then you happened, your ignorance happened. It started off with the editorilization of a map called zealot but little did we realize this would open up a door to so much ignorance that the game itself would be reduced to nothing but half its image.
I dont know how it happened exactly but when i turned on my copy of reach one morning i noticed something horrifying....half the class' were gone.. I dropped my controller and called my friend to aware him almost instantaneously. He came over later that week and to my discovery the game was plagued even more. The weapons were also edited. The removal of about 60 percent of all guns was upon us and this suprized me because the idea of such guns like the "needler" being "cheap" had never even phased me.

We dropped our controllers and we havent touched the game since, the entertainment of doubles was lost..

Now im gonna offend all of you because the majority of your written statements are ignorant and for the games sake must be recognized

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THE CONCEPT OF SOMETHING BEING 'CHEAP"

i am sorry to aware all of you but "cheap" is an excuse for losing. If halo were real and someone killed you with lets say the armor lock what are you gonna do? yell at them from above?? "no fair no fair, i wasnt expecting that!" No you wont and you shouldnt even think about the thought of doing so. They prooved them self superior through the things they were given to them. Tough luck.

lets talk about the armor lock since i brought it up.

YOU NEED TO THINK ABOUT WHY THE ARMOR LOCK IS BEING USED SO OFTEN!!!

THINK...

MAYBE ITS BECAUSE ALL THE OTHER CHOICES OF ARMOR ABILITIES WERE TAKEN AWAY BECAUSE YOU PEOPLE COMPLAINED SO MUCH THAT YOU HAD THEM TAKEN AWAY?

you brought that whole armor lock cheap idealolgy upon yourself and you are just to ignorant to accept such facts. Like think about it though, its between running and hologramming. The armor lock is gonna be a populas because theres not much variety.

THE WEAPONS AND UNBALANCE

Like i said the weapons were reduced to scraps. This takes away from game play because it relives the player of having alternative ways to apprehend their "foe" The Armor ability's also seep into this category. Lets say team (b) is hiding with a sniper rifle and you cannot get close enough to get to them. Before you had options...flying, stealth camo etc. Now theirs not much to do except run and hope for the best. What is that, where did stratergy go? The same problem reverts to weapons. Since the varietys have been shot the options you have are limited.

There is also small concern as to what team starts near what weapons. One some levels they began fairly balanced but now one team gets the "power weapons" meaning an early lead. Again if the game was remained in its true state their would be options to change the early lead outcome but now theres only so much you can do



In conclusion this game has been ruined by pure ignorance. In my opinion a game should be more then just pointless killing. Halo should be more of a game then just another first person shooter and believe me, it was. All i see from these comments are people who cant take a beating so their complainging because they can no longer win over and over. As for you people who claim doubles should have nothing because its ranked ask yourself this. Shouldnt a hardcore game contain stratergy and teamwork?

But no, you have all decided that we should just load a game up with anything that can get a match done quick and over with. A game based on quick reaction times, nothing to do with thought up plans


Halo reach has changed and it is not the game i paid for but do
you know what would make me keep the game? throw in a social doubles with the old gameplay styles, if your so dead set on making ranked worse then it already is,just give the players who wanna play doubles a doubles match. Thats all i ever wanted in halo

  • 11.13.2010 1:42 AM PDT

"I'm afraid of the man I'll become if I lay my life down for the people I don't even care for"

Great great thread. Keep it up Snakie

  • 11.18.2010 7:06 PM PDT

Corn, Oil, and Wine... We need more wine...

Lovely. I like this theory a lot.

  • 11.29.2010 3:20 AM PDT

This is a great theory of yours and I'm too lazy to read all the replies so I apologize if what I say has already been said. Now, you said that the Flood probably overpowered the Precursors in a suprise attack. I propose that the Gravemind may have manipulated the Precursors into believing the Flood is the final stage of evolution, when it was not. Think about it, the Gravemind could trick both Medicant Bias and Cortana, whats not to say with all the knowledge he gained from indexing so many species he could to the same to the Precursors?

I too believe that the Precursors did'nt evolve themselves to the Flood as a higher stage of evolution because when they said that the Precursors could accelerate evolution, I was thinking they meant they could accelerate the evolution of a lesser species to rival their own. How could they accelerate their evolution to a stage where they are even unsure of? They can't, so perhaps the Flood was a living AI like you said.

But another thing is this, do you remember how in Halo CE (of Halo: The Flood, I forget which) Guilty Spark was suprised that ballistic weapons could be so effective against the Flood? We've seen how the Sentinals were effective against infection forms, but not against combat forms. If there were combat forms during the Forerunner/Flood war, wouldn't the Forerunners create better weapons suited for handling them? Maybe the Flood didn't even fight the Precursors, its possible that they simply snuck away, though that is unlikely, but im just throwing suggestions out there.

Another thing, you also said that they may have stored information in the Flood spores, which explains why the Gravemind is weaker compared to the Forerunner/Flood war and maybe even against the Precursors. I think it would be impractical to store information into something that can decay since the purpose was to store information. If that is the case, how did the current Gravemind in the Halo games create the Pure forms? According to this theory, they are long dead races recreated through memory of them when the Gravemind cataloged them. If the Flood spores with the information decay, how could the current Gravemind possibly recreate races that died off hundreds of thousands of years ago? Perhaps the Pure forms are something else, or perhaps information wasn't stored in the Flood spores, but then how did the Flood get weaker?

I believe this theory has been stated already, but perhaps, since they ruled over multiple galaxies (I assume they do because of their ability to travel to other galaxies) that like the Forerunners, they were in the process, or were even in a state of disarmament so when the Gravemind turned on them, he won without much of a fight and when the Forerunners ran into the Flood, the Flood had no weapons. But shouldn't have the Forerunner won the war? Well, with the knowledge of the Precursors at their disposal, I suppose the Gravemind could have built weapons, and remember, the Forerunners were in a state of disarmament too.

As for how the Forerunners came to be, the Precursors may have came to the Milky Way, met the Forerunners, might have accelerated their race to a higher tech level, passed down their Mantle for preserving life, and left. I believe the theories of the Forerunners who were Precursors that disagrees with the Flood idea and left are wrong because we all know the Forerunners are less advanced than the Precursors, so if the Forerunners are Precursors, shouldn't they be at the same tech level? I may be right, I may be wrong, the Flood could even be from a completely seperate galaxy than the Precursors and had no relation with them what so ever, who knows?

[Edited on 12.05.2010 8:55 AM PST]

  • 12.05.2010 8:49 AM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution: V2.6

UWG


Posted by: Lord Snakie
If the Gravemind is an AI, does it go rampant like they do?:


On this topic, how do you think the gravemind's absorption of intelligence would affect an AI's standard cycle? Would it accelerate the deterioration of that AI? Prolong it? Or would it prolong one stage and shorten another? And would the species from which this knowledge was obtain affect the cycle directly? There are four species/civilizations that the gravemind is known to have absorbed the most often, the precursors, the forerunners, the covenant, and humanity. There are also four stages of AI rampancy. Could it be possible that the characteristics of each civilization drive the gravemind to certain states of rampancy? Do the gravemind's reaction/feelings toward each of these civilizations have anything do do with it? Just something I thought of after reading this section.

  • 12.05.2010 7:21 PM PDT

UWG

Could it be possible that the Forerunners were also a creation of the Precursors? What if the Forerunners were created as a type of control for the flood, but as the gravemind became sentient and began to overpower the Precursors, the Forerunners were sent away in an attempt to save the only remaining being that could contend with the flood? Then, as the flood obliterated the Precursors and absorbed their knowledge, they found the Forerunner's weakness and exploited it in their attack. This could also explain why the flood seemed weaker, in comparison, when fighting human beings in the games. Since humanity would have been in its early form at the time of the forerunners, all forerunner data/knowledge of humanity would be fairly basic and not too extensive, therefore the flood had only basic knowledge of how to fight humans before being contained. This explains the relative ease which with humans fight the flood.

  • 12.05.2010 7:54 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Akatsuki0826
Another thing, you also said that they may have stored information in the Flood spores, which explains why the Gravemind is weaker compared to the Forerunner/Flood war and maybe even against the Precursors. I think it would be impractical to store information into something that can decay since the purpose was to store information. If that is the case, how did the current Gravemind in the Halo games create the Pure forms? According to this theory, they are long dead races recreated through memory of them when the Gravemind cataloged them. If the Flood spores with the information decay, how could the current Gravemind possibly recreate races that died off hundreds of thousands of years ago? Perhaps the Pure forms are something else, or perhaps information wasn't stored in the Flood spores, but then how did the Flood get weaker?

All cells degrade--all cells. Anything living goes through trillions of cells in places all over its body. The only exception to this is the brain, which never replicates itself (aside from while it's growing, where it makes new cells that are used later in life, but that's a different story), because if it were to try to the "person" that we are inescapably dies with the original material that is replaced. Why do you think older humans becomes senile? It's not because their body is more susceptible to disease or anything of the like (although it is), it's because their neurons are decaying in their own minds. Their brains are disintegrating in their heads, and they can't make a new one or repair it because, were their bodies to try, they would die.

What's wrong with storing them on spores? The spores are known to be able to infect new animals/species, and there are billions of them, many released by the Gravemind itself. It makes almost perfect sense, in the context of this theory. They're the one things that are most likely to at least partially survive a Flood drought, so to speak.


I believe the theories of the Forerunners who were Precursors that disagrees with the Flood idea and left are wrong because we all know the Forerunners are less advanced than the Precursors, so if the Forerunners are Precursors, shouldn't they be at the same tech level?
When you leave a technologically fruitful area with fully-developed baseline production and go to a new area you have to build from the bottom back up. The Forerunner, were they to be a branch of the Precursor, would have had to do the exact same thing. It would have greatly hindered their production capacities, to the extent that they could have easily dropped a tier or even two down. Remember, the Precursor wouldn't have been aiding these guys. They would've been on their own, and it's natural that their tech would've slid down before climbing back up.




Posted by: aaaa1188
On this topic, how do you think the gravemind's absorption of intelligence would affect an AI's standard cycle? Would it accelerate the deterioration of that AI? Prolong it? Or would it prolong one stage and shorten another?

That's a very good question, the first that's made me had to genuinely think about the lore in quite some time. So long as the lore is concerned, it would most likely accelerate the deterioration of the AI, a la Cortana. When she absorbed more data she flew down into rampancy faster. Now, as for the Gravemind absorbing material while in rampancy itself, that's something that I can't answer with factual backup from the canon. If I had to guess, it would prolong all stages of rampancy, because it would have to reconcile the data gained from that race with its changing mindset.


And would the species from which this knowledge was obtain affect the cycle directly? There are four species/civilizations that the gravemind is known to have absorbed the most often, the precursors, the forerunners, the covenant, and humanity.
Remember, the Precursor absorption is just a theory. Speaking in terms of this theory it's all fine and good to speak as though it's true, but mind what is actual canon and what is supposition.

There are also four stages of AI rampancy. Could it be possible that the characteristics of each civilization drive the gravemind to certain states of rampancy? Do the gravemind's reaction/feelings toward each of these civilizations have anything do do with it?
I don't think that absorbing any particular race would put it into different stages of rampancy, but I think that different races affect any Gravemind differently. The more technologically advanced, the more history and knowledge there is to absorb that it's never experienced before, and thus the more necessary to reconcile it before it can continue to move out of that stage of rampancy.


Could it be possible that the Forerunners were also a creation of the Precursors?
In a manner of speaking, I believe so.

  • 12.06.2010 7:11 AM PDT

What's wrong with storing them on spores? The spores are known to be able to infect new animals/species, and there are billions of them, many released by the Gravemind itself. It makes almost perfect sense, in the context of this theory. They're the one things that are most likely to at least partially survive a Flood drought, so to speak.

Do Flood spores infect others? I thought that was the infection form's job, I don't think you mentioned that in your theory, just that they store information.

When you leave a technologically fruitful area with fully-developed baseline production and go to a new area you have to build from the bottom back up. The Forerunner, were they to be a branch of the Precursor, would have had to do the exact same thing. It would have greatly hindered their production capacities, to the extent that they could have easily dropped a tier or even two down. Remember, the Precursor wouldn't have been aiding these guys. They would've been on their own, and it's natural that their tech would've slid down before climbing back up.

But I find it strange if part of the Precursors decide to break away, they won't take the necessary equipment and technology and materials to get right back to their tier.

And you still never responded to my theory that the Precursors were in a state of disarmament, so the Flood could attack and infect all of them with relative ease. So it wasn't hard to take down the Precursors in the first place, and since the Forerunners were in a state of disarmament too, they couldn't really fight back either. It was more like a race to build the weapons first, but since the Flood have Precursor intelligence, they won. Maybe the Flood didn't get weaker, maybe the Forerunners and Precursors just weren't prepared to fight a war.

  • 12.06.2010 1:24 PM PDT
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Posted by: Akatsuki0826
Do Flood spores infect others? I thought that was the infection form's job, I don't think you mentioned that in your theory, just that they store information.

Well, that's because their infective properties aren't theory, but fact. I assume that most people that read this thread have a good understanding of the lore (not saying that you don't; you most certainly do).


But I find it strange if part of the Precursors decide to break away, they won't take the necessary equipment and technology and materials to get right back to their tier.
Of course they would, but they still have to mine resources, build structures, build factories, use those factories to get materials to build more advanced structures... you see the issue? It's not as simple as plopping down a laboratory and saying "done!" You have to create the infrastructure around it beforehand, and that is the part that would take enough time and effort to cause them to slip down a few tiers.


And you still never responded to my theory that the Precursors were in a state of disarmament, so the Flood could attack and infect all of them with relative ease. So it wasn't hard to take down the Precursors in the first place, and since the Forerunners were in a state of disarmament too, they couldn't really fight back either. It was more like a race to build the weapons first, but since the Flood have Precursor intelligence, they won. Maybe the Flood didn't get weaker, maybe the Forerunners and Precursors just weren't prepared to fight a war.
It's possible, but I didn't really comment on it because there's no more evidence to support it than to support my supposition. All I can tell you is that it is a plausible outcome, if not probable.

  • 12.06.2010 1:33 PM PDT

Thanks, being told that I know a lot about the Halo lore from you means a lot. All very reasonable answers, but imagine 343 decides to not even go through with all of this and say the Flood came from a completely different galaxy and they had no relation with the Precursors. I'm pretty sure we'd all be pissed.

  • 12.06.2010 6:54 PM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution: V2.7

"It is done. By my hands. The pyrrhic solution is ignited. All I have left is the quiet of space to lull me to sleep.
I will dream of you." - The Didact

In this theory, you have quoted the Bestiarum (sp?).

Tier 0: Trans-sentient: As the [Forerunners] had no examples of civilizations with technological accomplishment greater than themselves - with the exception of the Precursors - this is a theoretical ceiling. They can travel intergalactic and accelerate evolution of intelligent life. These may be creatures of legend.

Please note the use of the term "Trans-sentient"

Now let me quote another part of the Bestiarum describing the Flood.

"The Flood have no culture as such, as they should be considered a single macro-organism instead of a group of individuals or even a group of sub-sentient individuals controlled by a single, or a group of, [trans-sentient[?]] being(s)."

Let me draw your attention to even a group of sub-sentient individuals controlled by. . .trans-sentient beings

I think it's very odd that there would even be a description phrased like this unless it were meant to be a large hint. It seems to me to be too hard to overlook.

In my mind, it seems to me, that the Precursors may somehow be directly controlling the Flood. For what reason and motive, I don't know.

What are your thoughts on this? What conclusions can you draw from this?

  • 12.07.2010 12:27 AM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: GhostRyderCA941
Now let me quote another part of the Bestiarum describing the Flood.

"The Flood have no culture as such, as they should be considered a single macro-organism instead of a group of individuals or even a group of sub-sentient individuals controlled by a single, or a group of, [trans-sentient[?]] being(s)."

I booted up my Beastiarum disk just to double-check and see if there was anything extra that talked about this, something that I missed, but I couldn't find this text at all. What version of the Beastiarum do you have, the Limited booklet? Where did you source this info from, and where can I find it?

  • 12.07.2010 10:16 AM PDT

Not sure if this has been brought up before, but IRIS definitely confirmed the part of the theory that the Flood consumed the precursors:
I direct you to IRIS server 2, Log 2:
"We may have been fools to think that all intelligence follows the rules we've set
The Flood is no idiot parasite
{//}
It has a center, a Mind
{//}
{//}
it spoke to us
{//}
It has done this before
{//}"

You probably saw it.
It has done this before

if IRIS was written by the forerunners, the the only ones who came before the Forerunners are the precursors.

Amazing job on this theory, until there is canon to prove otherwise, this is my new canon.

  • 12.07.2010 6:10 PM PDT

Oh hey there

Posted by: petarded2
It's a metaphor for the 07s' lack of identity. too old to be newfa­g, yet too new to be oldfa­g, we wander b.net in search of a home, forever trying to be something we are not.

Posted by: Lord Snakie
The only exception to this is the brain, which never replicates itself because if it were to try to the "person" that we are inescapably dies with the original material that is replaced.

Just because Humans brain cells can't replicate and create more of themselves what is to say that the Gravemind can't. If it a receptacle for knowledge as you suggest wouldn't it make sense that it was designed with the intention of being able to create more storage space exponentially and thus avoid rampancy. This can be done fairly easily, (for such an advanced race as the Precursors), by creating information storage cells (they don't necessarily have to be brain cells)that can reproduce exponentially as long as there is sufficient material to do so. Thus the Flood's insatiable need to expand, to preserve it's own sanity and life.

Another interesting concept I'd like to bring into this discussion is something that has to do with the memory storage problem of "Smart" AI's. In Halsey's journal we found out that she was experimenting with a way to give AI's practically limitless space with which to store data by giving them access to slipspace. Just a thought I'm not really sure how it can be applied to your theory here but while we were on the subject of memory storage and rampancy in AI's I thought I would bring it up. Because if such a primitive species as Humanity could come up with this idea and begin experimenting with it surely the Precursor could.

Edit: And Revan once I get done with your new trans sentience ideas I'll post something about that.

[Edited on 12.07.2010 6:35 PM PST]

  • 12.07.2010 6:28 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: greezy123
"We may have been fools to think that all intelligence follows the rules we've set
The Flood is no idiot parasite
{//}
It has a center, a Mind
{//}
{//}
it spoke to us
{//}
It has done this before
{//}"

As much as I wish I could call it so, that's not confirmation. The first part of that could simply be the Forerunner commenting on how they had a preconception about life--the Mantle--and the Flood doesn't follow that preconception, much to their disdain. Then it goes on to talk about the Gravemind and what it did, until it says, as you point out, that it has done this before. Well, one would assume that, with the Gravemind being of extra-galactic origin, of course he's done it before. That's no proof that the Precursor were the ones that it did it to, however; they could have traveled to dozens of galaxies before they reached the Milky Way, and absorbed countless civilizations.



Posted by: Spartan1065
Just because Humans brain cells can't replicate and create more of themselves what is to say that the Gravemind can't.

Well, actually, it does--partially. The Gravemind's actual thought processes are based upon the organisms that make up its superstructure--their neurons (the non-dividing kind) are what make it capable of understanding on the level that it does. Most certainly the FSCs can replicate and each serves partially as a neuron, but the Gravemind needs those human/alien (one way or the other, non-divisible) neurons to back up its intelligence.


If it a receptacle for knowledge as you suggest wouldn't it make sense that it was designed with the intention of being able to create more storage space exponentially and thus avoid rampancy.
Storage space issues are a common misconception for what rampancy is. The truth is that that's not really the case--not fully. Rampancy is when an AI hits a boundary, any boundary. The AI instantly wants to be able to break that boundary, and when they do, they irrevocably hit rampancy. Almost all of them do because of memory storage issues, because that's the first block that most hit, but there are notable exceptions--the Gravemind, in this case--where an AI has hit another boundary first and spiraled into rampancy.

But, even were this the case (which is possible), as I said above, the FSCs can act as such infinite storage space. But then again, the Gravemind would need nutrients to make infinite numbers of those, and if its intellect were to reside solely in those cells it would lose much of its ability every time they divided (with my understanding of anatomy), which is why I believe a Gravemind being built around living, non-divisible neurons is critical.


This can be done fairly easily, (for such an advanced race as the Precursors), by creating information storage cells (they don't necessarily have to be brain cells)that can reproduce exponentially as long as there is sufficient material to do so. Thus the Flood's insatiable need to expand, to preserve it's own sanity and life.
Technically, it is possible that the Flood Spores are these information receptacles, shot out to contain any information that is being lost due to cellular replication in a particular area and re-absorbed later. Millions of data backups, if you will. I doubt this, however.


Another interesting concept I'd like to bring into this discussion is something that has to do with the memory storage problem of "Smart" AI's. In Halsey's journal we found out that she was experimenting with a way to give AI's practically limitless space with which to store data by giving them access to slipspace. Just a thought I'm not really sure how it can be applied to your theory here but while we were on the subject of memory storage and rampancy in AI's I thought I would bring it up. Because if such a primitive species as Humanity could come up with this idea and begin experimenting with it surely the Precursor could.
For their AIs, likely. But the question begs to be asked, then, why did the Forerunner not succeed with this method in AIs such as 343 Guilty Spark? They certainly should have been able to do such--they were known as slipspace masters, after all. And yet that method, ultimately, failed, if they used it at all. That is worthy of investigation.

And, of course, all of that is a moot point s'far as the Gravemind is concerned, because it is made of living cells. Any data storage system that were to be used for it couldn't exist in slipspace.

  • 12.08.2010 11:56 AM PDT