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This topic has moved here: Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution: V2.6
  • Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution: V2.6
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution: V2.6

It explains the flood very well in this article but I don't think they would follow genetic programming because, since you state that they need knowledge,flesh,and bone then how would they continue to have the genetic programming that you speak of since as you said organic bodies decay. To counter this the flood would need to consume more species to survive therby reducing their own DNA in favour of the DNA of the infected species. This would over time (since the grave-mind is thought to be millenia old) cause them to lose their own DNA and as I said before replace it with the DNA of the infected. So for the sake of argument lets say that the flood have been feeding on species for 100 million years (before the flood-forerunner war) over that time they would be consuming multiple species (again for the sake of argument lets say they fed on 25 different species including the Precursor) now since the flood need to replace the DNA they are losing over time with the other species there own "programing" would be lost with their old DNA and replaced with "programing" of that species. So back to my argument, lets say that this line is there DNA with the programing (easier to understand with pictures).
P=Programing

DNApDNApDNApDNApDNApDNA

over the millions of years their DNA would become more clouded with other DNA of the species it has injested to stay alive.
P=programing
OS=other species DNA

DNpOSDNAOSpDNpOSOSDNp

Meaning that their DNA would be changing from what the precursor had made it. Since their DNA is changing they're forms would change, their thinking process would change, even their way of interaction would change and by the 100 million year marker their DNA would become something like this.
P=programing
OS=other species DNA

DOSNOSAOSDNAOSpOSDNOSDNAOSDNOSDOSAOSD

I'm not saying the programing would be all gone but most of it, therby making it nothing more then that annoying little voice in the back of your head telling you to do something only when it's really quit, and nothing is moving does it ever nag at you. but very well written and explained theory

  • 12.08.2010 6:29 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: LoLzboi
Okay, wat.

Just because the Flood consume species doesn't mean that they take use that other species's DNA in their own DNA--they don't. They use the cells, certainly, the primary example thereof being their use of the cells in the Gravemind, but they don't absorb or replicate the DNA of the host. I mean, that's not even theorized as being something that they do, and there's no evidence that I can think of that suggests that they do that.

  • 12.08.2010 7:23 PM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution: V2.7

very well defended, I was just thinking that yes the flood consume other species so when their bodies break down from age they would require more DNA and I also got that conclusion from the fact that when they take control of other species that species make-up seems to change, they go from firm muscle to spongy muscle like substance, plus they turn green wich one would think is a sign of a change in their genetic make-up. this is what that argument I posted earlier was trying to get at. Sorry if it was kinda unclear.

[Edited on 12.09.2010 12:36 PM PST]

  • 12.09.2010 12:35 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: LoLzboi
very well defended, I was just thinking that yes the flood consume other species so when their bodies break down from age they would require more DNA and I also got that conclusion from the fact that when they take control of other species that species make-up seems to change, they go from firm muscle to spongy muscle like substance, plus they turn green wich one would think is a sign of a change in their genetic make-up. this is what that argument I posted earlier was trying to get at. Sorry if it was kinda unclear.

No, you weren't unclear, that's just not how DNA works.

DNA is, essentially, a string of proteins. Specific proteins, but found in all life (that we're aware of... well, mostly. There's some new findings about ammonium-based life in Mono Lake in California that uses different protein makeup in their DNA components, but that's microscopic life anyway). If the Flood needed to alter their DNA, or repair it, they would merely use the nutrients that they had gathered from the bodies--not the DNA sequences themselves--to construct totally new DNA coded as their own DNA specifies. Not the DNA, but the proteins that makes up the DNA.

If what you were describing happens, as a human ate throughout their lifetime they would slowly turn into a, I don't know, pig? Cow? What we ate would make us like the thing that we were eating, but that's now how it works.

The Flood does modify the genetic structure of a host when they absorb it into the collective, but that's not the FSC doing so, it's their own influence over the host that is mutating the cells of the host's body itself, not injections of or modifications to the FSC. The only part of a combat form that is made up of FSCs, for example, is the Infection form itself. It is "pure" Flood, and separate from the body it is inhabiting.

  • 12.09.2010 12:57 PM PDT

oh well that makes sense still kinda weird that they mess with their hosts body

  • 12.09.2010 5:17 PM PDT

Wait a minute, I believe I have found evidence against your theory of how you say the Gravemind and the Flood lost all of the knowledge it gained from infecting the Precursors. If you would take out your Halo Encyclopedia and turn to page 158, under the Intellgence section of Flood Forms, it reads that the Gravemind holds all of the Flood's memories, even those of individual organisms and of all previous Graveminds. If the Gravemind retains all knowledge the Flood has gained over their existence, shouldn't they be able to understand Forerunner and even Precursor technology? How come they were so easy to fight in the Halo games then? Does this mean perhaps that the Flood have no relation with the Precursors? But we all know the Forerunners fought, and almost lost to, the Flood, what happened to that knowledge? I have no answer to this, so I turn to you, oh master of the Halo lore, do you have an explanation?

  • 12.12.2010 6:15 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Akatsuki0826
Just because it holds all of that knowledge doesn't mean that the knowledge is complete, or the memory uncorrupted. Even if that isn't the case, it's possible that the Gravemind is just hiding its understanding as it is incapable of building what it needs or harnessing pre-existing Forerunner ships and structures due to its nature. Because it can't do anything as-is, why unveil its trump card for no reason?

If those aren't the case, although I can think of no reason why they aren't possible, then I suppose this theory would be inaccurate. This is not, however, concrete proof that it is false.

  • 12.12.2010 6:28 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: AngrydoG
I just had an Idea.

What if the new game Bungie is making, is about the Precursors?

Would be interesting, especially considering the new IP is in a non-Halo universe. -.-

They're tired of Halo, and since the IP belongs to Microsoft now, they're busy working on new projects, or perhaps at the most old projects that they still own. If there are Precursors in their new work, they're not the Halo Precursor, unless all of this is one big meta-story.

  • 12.12.2010 6:46 PM PDT


Posted by: Akatsuki0826
Wait a minute, I believe I have found evidence against your theory of how you say the Gravemind and the Flood lost all of the knowledge it gained from infecting the Precursors.
+

Is it possible it was lost with the detonation of the first Halo Array?

  • 12.12.2010 6:49 PM PDT

That actually very well may be the answer. We follow this theory up to the Forerunner/Flood war, where the Halo Array was activated, wiping out the Flood except those kept on the Installations for further study. Once the Covenant released the Flood in Halo C.E., it absorbed enough intelligence and mass to form a new Gravemind, but with no extentive knowledge on the Forerunners and the Precursors as a result of the Halo Array.

  • 12.13.2010 12:03 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Akatsuki0826
That actually very well may be the answer. We follow this theory up to the Forerunner/Flood war, where the Halo Array was activated, wiping out the Flood except those kept on the Installations for further study. Once the Covenant released the Flood in Halo C.E., it absorbed enough intelligence and mass to form a new Gravemind, but with no extentive knowledge on the Forerunners and the Precursors as a result of the Halo Array.

This returns to the spore theory, or something much like it. The Gravemind has cursory memory of those events, but it never shows them as being solid or well-formed. This is why I think only a few recollections of that time were maintained over the centuries.

  • 12.13.2010 12:14 PM PDT

Well thats like saying it's so old that it forgets major details and only has very loose concepts of what it has gone through since its destruction and only remembers the events of when it rebuilt itself to nearly it's former glory.So really it's gone back to nearly it's first state of just becoming sentient.Except without the knowledge of the precursor or the forerunner war.

  • 12.13.2010 6:26 PM PDT

Fantastic read

  • 12.19.2010 2:56 AM PDT

I don't know if this helps at all or has been said before as I have not read all 34 Pages:

The precursors could have been similar to the Aasgard of Stargate. They were extremely advanced and capable of intergalactic travel. To prolong life they transferred their consciousness into a clone with small deficiencies, and over time the cloning process could no longer support them and their race was dieing out as a result.

Something similar could have happened to the precursors. With the creation of the flood to quickly gather and store as much knowledge about them as possible before they all died. With the flood's exponential growth pattern to aid in the timeliness of the collection.

This would also account for a population of flood that vastly outnumbered the remaining precursor population as the flood would have been allowed to move about unchecked since they were only around to collect information.

Greatly outnumbering the precursors during the original gravemind's rise to sentience would explain the defeat of the precursors.

As for the flood getting to the Milky Way: near the end of the precursor resistance to the flood they may have sent out a ship or beacon requesting aid or warning the forerunners. This ship or beacon could have contained some flood that tagged along for the ride and crashed where the forerunners first encountered the flood.

Feel free to destroy any of the ideas posed.

  • 12.20.2010 10:36 AM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution (V2)
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Ad faciendum discrimen


Posted by: Silkut X
Very interesting.

Saving this thread to observe it later. I'll be expecting to see more.

  • 12.20.2010 11:02 AM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution: V2.7

It could also be argued that, while retaining this information, it has no ability to use the information outright. Look at the evolution of Flood forms leading to Pure Forms. This transformation took years to achieve (albeit only 20-30) but this step in Flood evolution could have arguably only happened when the Gravemind had the facilities to create them (perhaps from calcium deposits? but I'm not too sure on that part exactly). As we see, these Pure Flood forms are much harder to kill than any infected flood body, and were perhaps necessary steps the Gravemind took in the Forerunner-Flood War to surpass Forerunner weapons and defenses. We know from Halo 3 terminals that combat suits of varying fortitude were deployed to Foreruuner, necessitating higher "combat forms" for the flood. So it could be assumed that Pure Forms are an example of previous knowledge held by the Gravemind that he was only able to use at a later date.

  • 12.21.2010 12:21 AM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: KoV tvbomb
It could also be argued that, while retaining this information, it has no ability to use the information outright. Look at the evolution of Flood forms leading to Pure Forms. This transformation took years to achieve (albeit only 20-30) but this step in Flood evolution could have arguably only happened when the Gravemind had the facilities to create them (perhaps from calcium deposits? but I'm not too sure on that part exactly). As we see, these Pure Flood forms are much harder to kill than any infected flood body, and were perhaps necessary steps the Gravemind took in the Forerunner-Flood War to surpass Forerunner weapons and defenses. We know from Halo 3 terminals that combat suits of varying fortitude were deployed to Foreruuner, necessitating higher "combat forms" for the flood. So it could be assumed that Pure Forms are an example of previous knowledge held by the Gravemind that he was only able to use at a later date.

A good example. You're right about the calcium portion for Pure Forms, but it has very little bearing on the underlying point: we saw the Gravemind using normal forms to fight in Halo 2, and then in Halo 3 he was able to do something new with knowledge that he possessed that we knew nothing about. All he needed was time.

  • 12.22.2010 6:47 AM PDT

"Betcha can't stick it."

Great Wall of text! Very well thought out and put together. I do however have some questions about the flood organism as a whole, if you would be willing to answer.

1) Does the Flood evolve itself based on needs, or is all that it is capable of because of the Precursor's organic programming. For example, do you believe that pure forms fit into an infestation because the flood needs acting soldiers or defences based on needs, or is it based on Precursor DNA programming?

2) You had also made mention of the Flood in regard to its needs. The flesh probably for preexisting energy needs much in the way we have dietary needs, calcium for the ability to for biomass, but what exactly is the reason for the constant need to absorb sentient species? I may be answering my own question here, but is the Flood merely a heavily rampant form of your theory of an archival system?

3) How come when a new gravemind is formed, it seems to have the intents of consuming the galaxy? Based on your degredation and decaying theory, at some point is it possible for a gravemind to form its preprogrammed form, and for standard operating procedure to take place again? In such manner, I am suggesting if over millenias of time, that in such time, the gravemind's memory simply vanishes, causes are left astray, and in a sense, devolves back into your theory as a central archiving unit for the deceased?

4) Since we are at the point of suggesting the Gravemind losing sentience, let us say that a controlled infestation is purposely carried out for whatever reason, and the experiment is to annihalate the proto-gravemind/ gravemind before it reaches sentience. ( I understand comprehending one species' sentience is difficult, but let us merely assume) Now if this accomplished, do you believe that the flood will go rampant because of the loss of a central controller, or that this infestation is another preprogrammed measure of the Precursors to ensure the survival of their central archiving unit?

5) What is your favorite kind of snack pack, m'lord?

:D

  • 12.22.2010 11:16 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: thefatbuddha
1) Does the Flood evolve itself based on needs, or is all that it is capable of because of the Precursor's organic programming. For example, do you believe that pure forms fit into an infestation because the flood needs acting soldiers or defences based on needs, or is it based on Precursor DNA programming?

I think it would be both. The Flood would've (potentially) absorbed and cataloged the species originally based upon what the Precursor originally programmed, but their use of the Pure Forms--bringing the species back to fight for them--would've been a choice on the part of the Gravemind only based upon the calcium levels of the infection.


2) You had also made mention of the Flood in regard to its needs. The flesh probably for preexisting energy needs much in the way we have dietary needs, calcium for the ability to for biomass, but what exactly is the reason for the constant need to absorb sentient species? I may be answering my own question here, but is the Flood merely a heavily rampant form of your theory of an archival system?
I think it's still in that highly rampant archival system state myself, yes, but I think it's coming out of that rampancy--slowly!--and is startng to find its "place" in the galaxy. But there's a question of what that "place" is and how they can get to there from being entity-absorbing galaxy-destroying monsters.

It's also possible that they're "forced" to absorb memories and understanding by some Precursor failsafe as I mentioned in the OP, but that's just a casual consideration; I don't actually believe that's likely.


3) How come when a new gravemind is formed, it seems to have the intents of consuming the galaxy? Based on your degredation and decaying theory, at some point is it possible for a gravemind to form its preprogrammed form, and for standard operating procedure to take place again? In such manner, I am suggesting if over millenias of time, that in such time, the gravemind's memory simply vanishes, causes are left astray, and in a sense, devolves back into your theory as a central archiving unit for the deceased?
It is... possible... but I don't think so. In my ideal understanding, that wouldn't happen because of the persistence of the Flood/the Flood spores (which I believe act like neurons). The hive mind, when the Gravemind gains control of it again, has at least some cursory memories of the past, and the Gravemind is able to use them to break through its conditioning immediately, or even "come back" as a near-perfect representation of the last Gravemind, which has already broken through its conditioning. That, or the Flood altered their own DNA a long, long time ago so those blocks aren't present. One way or another, I personally think that it would never reach that stage again.

But, as I said, it is... possible that the Gravemind could reach a neutral state within the bounds of this theory and actually be provoked to aggression by the Sentinels or some sort of Forerunner defensive measure that doesn't take the Flood idling as an acceptable condition to leave them be.


4) Since we are at the point of suggesting the Gravemind losing sentience, let us say that a controlled infestation is purposely carried out for whatever reason, and the experiment is to annihalate the proto-gravemind/ gravemind before it reaches sentience. ( I understand comprehending one species' sentience is difficult, but let us merely assume) Now if this accomplished, do you believe that the flood will go rampant because of the loss of a central controller, or that this infestation is another preprogrammed measure of the Precursors to ensure the survival of their central archiving unit?
If a Gravemind was being formed and then went offline, well, we know what happens then, don't we? The Proto-Gravemind on Truth and Reconciliation was destroyed by the Chief; the Flood on Halo were not overly coordinated to begin with, but they still possessed intellect of an acceptable level to shoot at the Chief and follow him with the intent to kill. They weren't thrown into craziness, they were just forced back to relying on manipulation of their host's own inherent memories.


5) What is your favorite kind of snack pack, m'lord?
Lemon is pretty awesome.

  • 12.23.2010 12:24 PM PDT
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UWG Great group, you should check it out.

BungieHUB

*Slowly starts clapping* That was amazing, and it expanded my (assumed) knowledge of the Halo universe. I thank you for giving me the opportunity to read this. Whenever a question is asked about this I will refer to this theory. Here's a cookie (::)
Edit:Thread saved.

[Edited on 12.23.2010 1:27 PM PST]

  • 12.23.2010 1:27 PM PDT

In the above argument you said that they somehow changed their own DNA, i'm not sure they could because doesnt that require a lot of equipment and a trained lab techy? since the flood don't have very usefull looking arms that would be hard plus I don't think they can change the DNA of the "pure forms" only change their make-up "like appearance" can you clarify for me and maybe destroy my argument if you must to clarify because i'm kinda confused on this DNA thing

  • 12.24.2010 8:03 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: LoLzboi
In the above argument you said that they somehow changed their own DNA, i'm not sure they could because doesnt that require a lot of equipment and a trained lab techy? since the flood don't have very usefull looking arms that would be hard plus I don't think they can change the DNA of the "pure forms" only change their make-up "like appearance" can you clarify for me and maybe destroy my argument if you must to clarify because i'm kinda confused on this DNA thing

DNA is complicated; not fully understanding it is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of.

In the case of a Pure Form, the Flood form would be altering its appearance in accordance with data written into the DNA itself. It would be following the instructions of its DNA in order to create something that the Gravemind desired. But the ability to change DNA in any entity's body is actually incredibly simple; radiation, botched cellular reproduction, and botched cellular repair can all cause DNA change. Mutation is what it's normally referred to; of course, mutation isn't always a bad thing.

If the Flood were somehow capable of controlling their DNA's mutation, they could effectively change their own body's composition and instructions. They could remove Precursor influence and commands inbuilt into their bodies by simply changing their cells so they were different (in essence).

Sorry if this is a bit brief, I'm on somebody else's computer and it's not very condusive to coherent thought. Also, Christmas dinner.

  • 12.24.2010 9:44 PM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution (V2)

To be honest, when I first saw all this in the weekly update I thought 2 things.
#1- there is an actual legendary ending but,
#2- No matter what anyone does,(kill all the bobs, hit all switches etc) that until the "time" mentioned in "There'll be another time..." is reached there won't be a legendary ending.

The weekly update by bungie has slowed my hardcore search for what unlocks the legendary ending.


Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: C4PTAINCHR0NIC
damn man, very interesting, love readin these thoerys maybe bungie will hire you on as a writer lol or maybe yiu should write a novel, ide read it,

Because you mentioned it, I'm in the process of writing a mini-fiction for an upcoming group project in one of my private groups. "Testing the waters" of the Halo storyline, so-to-speak. It's very possible I could actually start putting together my own fiction in the near future, and I have a novel separate to the Halo universe underway right now. Who knows, maybe I'll make a name for myself and wind up getting contracted to write Halo books one day? As far-fetched as it is, you never know.
Seems like you will need the Holy bible of Halo...wait...did I say the halo bible?...you heard nothing...
Halo Story Bible

  • 12.26.2010 7:44 PM PDT

Best thread on this subject I have ever seen. Maybe you should do the next Halo Encyclopedia? :D

But, well laid out theory, and I agree with the part in which the Precursors create the Flood too, as it is the only way the Flood would have transgalactic travel.

  • 12.26.2010 8:59 PM PDT