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This topic has moved here: Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution (V2)
  • Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution (V2)
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution (V2)
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  • Exalted Legendary Member

Some can come away from reading "War and Peace" thinking it a simple adventure story, while others can read the ingredients on a gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe.

Posted by: Halcylon
Everything has happened before. Everything will happen again.
Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: Halo53
Unfortunately, I feel it is unlikely we will ever know for sure if you are correct

The upcoming Forerunner trilogy will certainly provide us with more information on that particular time period. It's possible we might find evidence of the Forerunner that reinforce this theory, or even find out more about the Precursor.


What? And what is this new forerunner trilogy? Also if the precursors where so advance then they would have probably had the technology to live idefinitly, and if they have the tech to create the flood i still think they could have found a way to scan someones brain after death. And just because the flood can infect dead bodies dosen't change the fact that that persons brain cells are DEAD. As in deystroyed phisiclly down to the dna so that memory is lost forever no matter what.

  • 06.11.2009 3:15 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Agustus
What?

Hal was quoting Battlestar Galactica, one of the most famous quotes of the series. It's an interesting parallel to Halo.

And what is this new forerunner trilogy?
An upcoming trilogy of books about the Forerunner and the war with the Flood.

Also if the precursors where so advance then they would have probably had the technology to live idefinitly, and if they have the tech to create the flood i still think they could have found a way to scan someones brain after death.
Living indefinitely is no mean feat. It would be near-impossible to preserve a body that long, and unless they ascended to a higher plane of existence that would be what it would come right down to.

And just because the flood can infect dead bodies dosen't change the fact that that persons brain cells are DEAD. As in deystroyed phisiclly down to the dna so that memory is lost forever no matter what.
Not so much. One strand of DNA can contain the person's memories, even if there aren't enough cells to make those memories anything more than a jumble of cellular codes. A machine would have to find an undamaged cell, scan the DNA, and then place all of the stored memories into actual sequences, which would be near-impossible, if not inherently impossible.

The Flood, however, are different. We've all seen it; a Flood form comes up to an Elite on Alpha Halo, infects it, and knows how to use the weapons it has on it instantly. It's genetic retrieval, and the Flood can do it with a single cell almost instantaneously.

We've seen it happen, we know it works.

  • 06.11.2009 7:02 PM PDT
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Firstly great theory, I am impressed by the amount of brainpower it would take to create it and the time you must have put into speaks to a deep interest in the subject.

There is one small problem that I see with the original Flood defeated Precursor theory, that the flood were only found, initially, on a single planet, G 617 g (Terminal 6)

If the flood did defeat the precursors, and from there went on to consume all life in the galaxy, it would follow that they would have been found on multiple planets, trapped their by their own inability to pilot a ships once the bodies they use for any job decay sufficently to become either carriers or decay completely, the pure forms don't seem sophisticated enough to pilot the ships necessary to reconcentrate the flood in one place.

As an alternative I suggest that the precursors simply went on their merry evolutionary way, becoming transsentient and pulling an stargate lantenan on the universe, refusing to intervene in the affairs of the primitives. The Forerunners evolved naturally on a planet, prehaps as the precursors who didn't become transsentient, became incredibly advanced. Meanwhile the flood made the transit from another galaxy and the two superpowers eventually collided, made war and then the forerunner pulled the "kill everybody to save them" trick and spare only enough flood for study, which is both stupid and incredibly wise, leaving the last remnants of the race that could consume all sentient life alive but it allows the possibility to find a weapon that could destroy the flood should they ever return.

Again the scant amount of evidence regarding those times allows for a great deal of speculation on what actual events took place and I have nothing but respect for those who are committed enough to put theirs forward. Feel free to rip mine apart

  • 06.12.2009 2:25 AM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: shaun_150
Firstly great theory, I am impressed by the amount of brainpower it would take to create it and the time you must have put into speaks to a deep interest in the subject.

I spent about 3 hours on this tops, probably somewhere more around two and a half. It was actually because the info I needed was already in my head and I didn't need any research, really. I just feel obligated to tell the truth whenever somebody brings up how much work I must've put into this thing. I'd feel bad if I didn't own up.

There is one small problem that I see with the original Flood defeated Precursor theory, that the flood were only found, initially, on a single planet, G 617 g (Terminal 6)
That's where they were found within our own galaxy, remember. We know from the Iris Halo 3 viral campaign that the Flood were extra-galactic in origin. That was the planet they were found on within our own galaxy... they came from a different one. Which one, we don't know: probably one relatively close to our own. But we don't know the events that led to their movement to our own galaxy, which is what makes this theory possible.

  • 06.12.2009 9:01 AM PDT
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I know, what I'm tryign to say is that if they had wiped out the precursors, they would have been found on more than one planet, as once their bodies decayed (one of the ways carriers are formed) they wouldn't have been able to withdraw to a single world.

  • 06.12.2009 4:33 PM PDT
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I agree with most of the stuff but I say the flood evolved into the flood to escape oppression by another race.

  • 06.12.2009 5:15 PM PDT
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Argumentum ad populum

My only, not really complaint, but observation i guess, is that if the precursor were so smart they could create a "living AI" wouldn't they have seen an uprising coming? In Mass Effect the Quarians were able to see that the geth were growing rebellious and launched a preemtive strike and were more advanced, but still lost the war and were outcast.

What I'm really trying to get at is maybe they could see the Gravemind was growing to hate them and they realized the control he had and they decided The Flood had to be stopped before they could destroy them. But they failed.

Granted, this is Halo, not Mass Effect and it's your theroy not mine. and it is a very good one and it's by far the best I've ever read and far better than anything I could ever come up with, but thats not really a compliment.

Great Job!

[Edited on 06.12.2009 6:21 PM PDT]

  • 06.12.2009 6:05 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: shaun_150
I know, what I'm tryign to say is that if they had wiped out the precursors, they would have been found on more than one planet, as once their bodies decayed (one of the ways carriers are formed) they wouldn't have been able to withdraw to a single world.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the terminal states that that particular planet was the only planet that the Forerunner encountered that had a Flood presence before they knew of its existence, not the only planet the Flood ever existed on before they found it. Hundreds... thousands... of other planets could have existed as Flood colonies that the Forerunner never found.

On top of that, it's possible that the Flood collective split after conquering the Precursor, and only one "colony" was sent to the Milky Way, resulting in that particular Flood "hive".


Posted by: napster851
My only, not really complaint, but observation i guess, is that if the precursor were so smart they could create a "living AI" wouldn't they have seen an uprising coming? In Mass Effect the Quarians were able to see that the geth were growing rebellious and launched a preemtive strike and were more advanced, but still lost the war and were outcast.

Very good observation, and correlation! Yes, that's very true. But look at the Geth compared to the Gravemind. The Geth were synthetic life; they begun with programming, but their programming adapted and evolved until pure logic and parameters exploded into the capacity for illogical thought and wide possibilities; synthetic mind and body to organic mind and synthetic body. The Gravemind began with an organic body and an organically composed mind, with only genetic restrictions holding it back. It was a much different scenario than the Geth: the Gravemind would have had the capacity to hide what it was feeling and its changes, because it only needed to learn capacity, not gain it.

  • 06.12.2009 8:58 PM PDT

"We sleep peaceably in our beds, because rough men stand ready to visit violence upon those that wish to do us harm."

"Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of all those who threaten them."

Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: shaun_150
Firstly great theory, I am impressed by the amount of brainpower it would take to create it and the time you must have put into speaks to a deep interest in the subject.

I spent about 3 hours on this tops, probably somewhere more around two and a half. It was actually because the info I needed was already in my head and I didn't need any research, really. I just feel obligated to tell the truth whenever somebody brings up how much work I must've put into this thing. I'd feel bad if I didn't own up.

There is one small problem that I see with the original Flood defeated Precursor theory, that the flood were only found, initially, on a single planet, G 617 g (Terminal 6)
That's where they were found within our own galaxy, remember. We know from the Iris Halo 3 viral campaign that the Flood were extra-galactic in origin. That was the planet they were found on within our own galaxy... they came from a different one. Which one, we don't know: probably one relatively close to our own. But we don't know the events that led to their movement to our own galaxy, which is what makes this theory possible.

That doesn't really go with their battle tactics though. They use massive numbers to defeat their foes, why would they limit themselves numbers wise? There is no reason they would disperse all their forces.

  • 06.12.2009 9:57 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Precursors
That doesn't really go with their battle tactics though. They use massive numbers to defeat their foes, why would they limit themselves numbers wise? There is no reason they would disperse all their forces.

"Battle tactics" and "survival tactics" can differ greatly. If the Flood collective had destroyed the Precursor empire, they would have had billions, perhaps trillions, of hosts under their control. Die-back would have begun immediately and would have been ludicrously swift. Splitting their numbers ensured that die-back in future galaxies would have been more acceptable and they could continue feeding and assimilating without dying faster than they could reproduce.

  • 06.13.2009 7:25 AM PDT

-blam!- GTFO OF MY SIGNATURE

Great theory, even though you are assuming quite alot, it's a pretty good read. Makes much sense.

  • 06.13.2009 7:36 AM PDT

"We sleep peaceably in our beds, because rough men stand ready to visit violence upon those that wish to do us harm."

"Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of all those who threaten them."

I can follow what your saying up until Die-back. What is that?


Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: Precursors
That doesn't really go with their battle tactics though. They use massive numbers to defeat their foes, why would they limit themselves numbers wise? There is no reason they would disperse all their forces.

"Battle tactics" and "survival tactics" can differ greatly. If the Flood collective had destroyed the Precursor empire, they would have had billions, perhaps trillions, of hosts under their control. Die-back would have begun immediately and would have been ludicrously swift. Splitting their numbers ensured that die-back in future galaxies would have been more acceptable and they could continue feeding and assimilating without dying faster than they could reproduce.

  • 06.13.2009 8:57 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Precursors
I can follow what your saying up until Die-back. What is that?

When a species has more numbers than their food source can sustain, they enter die-back: the period where the numbers of that species plummet until another food source is found or the first source is restored. Die-back is essentially when a species becomes overzealous in their expansion of population and territory and they kill everything... leaving them in the immediate future with absolutely nothing. The war against the Precursor would have created a situation like this: no food.

  • 06.13.2009 9:06 PM PDT

"We sleep peaceably in our beds, because rough men stand ready to visit violence upon those that wish to do us harm."

"Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of all those who threaten them."

Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: Precursors
I can follow what your saying up until Die-back. What is that?

When a species has more numbers than their food source can sustain, they enter die-back: the period where the numbers of that species plummet until another food source is found or the first source is restored. Die-back is essentially when a species becomes overzealous in their expansion of population and territory and they kill everything... leaving them in the immediate future with absolutely nothing. The war against the Precursor would have created a situation like this: no food.


But the Flood are able to go for tens of thousands of years without food. Why would they be concerned with Die-back when they could just put any extra population into hibernation?

  • 06.13.2009 9:17 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Precursors
But the Flood are able to go for tens of thousands of years without food. Why would they be concerned with Die-back when they could just put any extra population into hibernation?

How long does it take to reach another galaxy? Even with Precursor technology, we don't know exactly how long the journey would be, and we certainly know that the Flood can die even whilst in hibernation if they don't get food for long enough. It's possible that they split up to minimize the chance that some forms wouldn't receive food. If the entire collective goes to one galaxy and destroys all life there, then some forms from the original galaxy aren't going to die but also aren't going to feed, and they'll die.

You split the collective, your species spreads faster, eats better, and survives longer. It would allow the Flood to multiply and expand much faster than keeping them all together in one massive bunch.

  • 06.14.2009 7:12 AM PDT

if knowledge is power and power corrupts, isn't knowledge therefore dangerous?
Black Tower

O____O
i read the precursor part. iti sounded interesting.
and i must say, that really is a rather possible theroy you got there, snak pak.
kudos to you.
and your above pos't: you make them sound like alien parasetic lemmings.

[Edited on 06.14.2009 7:55 AM PDT]

  • 06.14.2009 7:54 AM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: spartan11bungie
you make them sound like alien parasetic lemmings.

...I forget what a lemming is, but I'll take that as a win remark. Thanks pokey!

  • 06.14.2009 8:05 AM PDT

Caboose: "Oh my God!!!!! Andy!!! Your dead!!! You had so much to live for!!!! So much exploding to dooo!!!!"

dude you must be intelligent beyond all words. Daxter is a Precursor. Hops around and doing windmill moon walks. "I'm a Precursor, I'm a Precursor, I'm a Precursor, WAIT!!!!! how come you guys have pants!!??"

  • 06.14.2009 8:49 AM PDT

"We sleep peaceably in our beds, because rough men stand ready to visit violence upon those that wish to do us harm."

"Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of all those who threaten them."

Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: Precursors
But the Flood are able to go for tens of thousands of years without food. Why would they be concerned with Die-back when they could just put any extra population into hibernation?

How long does it take to reach another galaxy? Even with Precursor technology, we don't know exactly how long the journey would be, and we certainly know that the Flood can die even whilst in hibernation if they don't get food for long enough. It's possible that they split up to minimize the chance that some forms wouldn't receive food. If the entire collective goes to one galaxy and destroys all life there, then some forms from the original galaxy aren't going to die but also aren't going to feed, and they'll die.

You split the collective, your species spreads faster, eats better, and survives longer. It would allow the Flood to multiply and expand much faster than keeping them all together in one massive bunch.


While I can see some of the logic of that, it seems so contradictory to send what a handful of spores to an alien galaxy? I could see sending a smaller force, but not a handful of spores that's basically asking to lose (which they very nearly did). Not one ship survived to spread the flood from one planet to another. Precursor ships are--given what we know of the species--the most powerful weapons of war in the Universe, why would you abandon it? Even if your sending a smaller force, you would give them one ship. There's what around 125 billion galaxies in the Universe, and quite a few of them wouldn't be accessible if you go with your slower inter-galactic travel. So why would this empire that numbers in the hundreds of billions if not trillions send, not one armed ship, not a force capable of taking on and defeating any kind of entrenched enemy that was aware of their threat.

The reason they beat the Forerunner was in large part due to luck. If the Forerunner had known about the threat of the Flood (which it's actually surprising they didn't considering they seemed to have friendly communications with the Precursors) they would have wiped out the original contact system's star. One stellar collapse is all that prevented the flood from being wiped out in the beginning.

Even if they decided to disperse across galaxies why would they not keep a ship? One ship? It would be downright irresponsible to not keep one ship to fight with. One weapon, one ship, one piece of technology they kept nothing?

I think it's much more likely that they did not enter the Milky Way with any intention to consume it, if your going to fight a war your going to bring a gun to the fight aren't you? The Flood didn't bring a gun to their war.

  • 06.14.2009 9:45 AM PDT

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Guys, I feel we're getting to that point where we're all beginning to talk out of our asses. Let's face it, given what was actually said in canon source material, it's pretty impossible to come up with a strong theory.

All we know it that the Precursors came before the Forerunners, and that they are believed to have been more technologically advanced. (No actual confirmation.)

  • 06.14.2009 3:00 PM PDT

"We sleep peaceably in our beds, because rough men stand ready to visit violence upon those that wish to do us harm."

"Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of all those who threaten them."

Posted by: Primo84
Guys, I feel we're getting to that point where we're all beginning to talk out of our asses. Let's face it, given what was actually said in canon source material, it's pretty impossible to come up with a strong theory.

All we know it that the Precursors came before the Forerunners, and that they are believed to have been more technologically advanced. (No actual confirmation.)


Well Precursors are Tier 0, Forerunner are Tier 1. The lower the Tier the more advanced you are. How do we not know the Precursors are more advanced? The majority of our information about them and the only time we have their name is in reference to their technological achievements being greater than the Precursors.

And, yeah I suppose almost all of what we're saying isn't based in fact. It's all conjecture which can be confirmed, supported, or refuted by one simple statement from Bungie. But unless they release the Halo story bible, we really don't have much else to do.

Snakie sees the Flood as emerging victorious over the Precursors because (I assume) they beat the Forerunner and if they lost they'd probably be dead. I see the Precursors as emerging victorious because of the fact that the Flood are so weak and lack any kind of advanced Precursor technology which they would have had, in the event they won.

Both arguments are valid, and both have very little evidence considering a Precursor Flood war isn't even known to have happened is it?

Wait... is it possible the two species have never even met?

  • 06.14.2009 4:35 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Precursors, it's possible that a ship was sent. We don't know if the original Flood infection team brought a Gravemind, and if they didn't the individual forms may not have known how to repair the ship. If it was infected like the Flood did to High Charity, it's possible that the ship degraded faster and broke apart when they attempted to land it. While this is ridiculous and rampant speculation, any number of things could have happened to stop the Flood from using a Precursor ship they were sent in with.

Primo, I'm forced to agree that we're basically talking out of our asses at this point. But any speculation that can be rooted to facts of the series is at least shakily supported (namely this entire theory), so speculating upon it is essentially necessary. You make and break supporting links over time based on this speculation, it's how theories evolve from "V1"s to "V2"s.

  • 06.14.2009 5:02 PM PDT

"We sleep peaceably in our beds, because rough men stand ready to visit violence upon those that wish to do us harm."

"Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of all those who threaten them."

Ok, I doubt we'll get anywhere on arguing it further. I don't think either of us could provide enough evidence to discredit either theory. But I do have one question unrelated to this for you.

Have we ever confirmed that monitors see in color? Or see anything apart from species identification?

  • 06.14.2009 5:36 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Precursors
Have we ever confirmed that monitors see in color? Or see anything apart from species identification?

No, nothing to do with the Rainbow Theory was ever proven, although the theory itself was practically annihilated by common sense.

I damn the day that Duardo asked me to re-create that damn thing.

  • 06.14.2009 6:06 PM PDT

"We sleep peaceably in our beds, because rough men stand ready to visit violence upon those that wish to do us harm."

"Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of all those who threaten them."

Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: Precursors
Have we ever confirmed that monitors see in color? Or see anything apart from species identification?

No, nothing to do with the Rainbow Theory was ever proven, although the theory itself was practically annihilated by common sense.

I damn the day that Duardo asked me to re-create that damn thing.


I'm not familiar with it, but I'm thinking that if a Monitor is programmed only to see the species of whoever it's interacting with it could account for some of his Forerunner=Human and "When you asked me last time" statements. If Forerunner and Humans are perhaps genetically similar, or to monitors at least are. He would respond that way and would still read the Flood as enemy. We know UNSC AIs can't see with their eyes, so perhaps Sparky can't either, just scan someone and see their species identification.

Of course the only reason I ever thought of this was to defeat some time travel crap.

  • 06.14.2009 6:25 PM PDT