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  • Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution V2.2!
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution V2.2!

I am Field Master Avu Med 'Telcam, Servant of the Abiding Truth, and I have many brothers.

A god who creates tools is still a god. It is not for us to impose qualifications upon the divine or presume to guess its intentions.

I'm not a theorist but I do look into this type of thing.

And I have only one question, so if the flood overtook the Precursors, how did it lead to the Foreunner vs. Flood war? I'm sure if the Foreunners treated the Precursors as gods, they would know of their downfall and have some kind of defense for it. But the Foreunners instead destroyed every form of weaponry in the galaxy, practically accepting they would eventually die the same fate. Why?

~matman

  • 07.28.2009 5:47 AM PDT
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I've read it all and you seem to have done a lot of thinking, i've already wonder what graveminds master plan is, and is simply unknown, for all we know cortana is inlead with gravemind, knowing he is a precursor, or contains mass amount of knowledge about them, which in turn knows about it as well.

I've also looked into a lot of this stuff, and I've found Halo was actually created after a book called "ring world" havent read it myself, but maybe it might shine light on something you're looking for?

EDIT: I'm leaning towards the "Gravemind is a AI" mainly because at the halo 2 Cortana alows gravemine to become on with her, as she states in the end of Halo 3 "remember theres two of us in here now" which would inplay she merged with gravemind, or gravemind merged with her(better explantion in the Contact Harvest book, when SIF enters Loki/Mack's Database)

[Edited on 07.28.2009 9:37 AM PDT]

  • 07.28.2009 9:24 AM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: matman25402
And I have only one question, so if the flood overtook the Precursors, how did it lead to the Foreunner vs. Flood war? I'm sure if the Foreunners treated the Precursors as gods, they would know of their downfall and have some kind of defense for it. But the Foreunners instead destroyed every form of weaponry in the galaxy, practically accepting they would eventually die the same fate. Why?

It was never suggested that the Forerunner revered the Precursor. It's possible the Forerunner hadn't had any contact with them for a long while, or that they only came to the Forerunner immediately before the Flood invasion. Either way, it's unlikely that the Forerunner knew what was coming after them.

  • 07.28.2009 10:47 AM PDT

I am Field Master Avu Med 'Telcam, Servant of the Abiding Truth, and I have many brothers.

A god who creates tools is still a god. It is not for us to impose qualifications upon the divine or presume to guess its intentions.

Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: matman25402
And I have only one question, so if the flood overtook the Precursors, how did it lead to the Foreunner vs. Flood war? I'm sure if the Foreunners treated the Precursors as gods, they would know of their downfall and have some kind of defense for it. But the Foreunners instead destroyed every form of weaponry in the galaxy, practically accepting they would eventually die the same fate. Why?

It was never suggested that the Forerunner revered the Precursor. It's possible the Forerunner hadn't had any contact with them for a long while, or that they only came to the Forerunner immediately before the Flood invasion. Either way, it's unlikely that the Forerunner knew what was coming after them.


"The Precursors were mentioned in the Bestiarum as the race preceding and mythologized by the Forerunner, being theoretical "Trans-sentient" beings, having the ability to travel between galaxies and accelerate the evolution of intelligent life. "

Thats from Halopedia, the 1st line. They worshiped them, but I guess they never looked into their destruction.

  • 07.28.2009 3:55 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: matman25402
"The Precursors were mentioned in the Bestiarum as the race preceding and mythologized by the Forerunner, being theoretical "Trans-sentient" beings, having the ability to travel between galaxies and accelerate the evolution of intelligent life. "

Thats from Halopedia, the 1st line. They worshiped them, but I guess they never looked into their destruction.

DO NOT EVER trust Halopedia!! NEVER! They have no proof of that whatsoever. The only information that points to anything close to that reads:

These may be creatures of legend.
That does not mean that the Forerunner worshiped them, it means that they may be legends to many races.

NEVER TRUST HALOPEDIA!!

[Edited on 07.28.2009 4:02 PM PDT]

  • 07.28.2009 3:59 PM PDT

I am Field Master Avu Med 'Telcam, Servant of the Abiding Truth, and I have many brothers.

A god who creates tools is still a god. It is not for us to impose qualifications upon the divine or presume to guess its intentions.

^^ I guess you feel passionately about that :o

://EDIT//: I see where you are getting that from, at the bottom of the linked page it says:

These may be creatures of legend.

I see your observation, so they barely had contact with them, thus never seeing the flood coming.

[Edited on 07.28.2009 4:08 PM PDT]

  • 07.28.2009 4:03 PM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution (V2)
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What if the Forerunners, Precursors, and even humanity are one and the same.
Maybe they just kept being wiped out by the flood, and then rebuilding...
Until humanity actually won?

  • 07.28.2009 4:14 PM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution V2.2!
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EDIT: I'm leaning towards the "Gravemind is a AI" mainly because at the halo 2 Cortana alows gravemine to become on with her, as she states in the end of Halo 3 "remember theres two of us in here now" which would inplay she merged with gravemind, or gravemind merged with her(better explantion in the Contact Harvest book, when SIF enters Loki/Mack's Database)


No, when Cortana tells Cheif to be careful, it is because Cortana has once again reunited with Chief, hence the "two of us".

  • 07.28.2009 4:18 PM PDT
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"One shot, One Kill; No Luck, Just Skill"

Posted by: Reptilian Rob
Posted by: Person25
Posted by: Reptilian Rob
I HAVE A THEORY!!!!!!

The Flood are mean bad guys because the Precursors took away all their cookies. Poor Flood went to another Galaxy looking for more cookies, only to find the Forerunners had already taken all the cookies! The Flood became jealous mean bad guys, and are now searching for new cookies because the mean evil bad Forerunners took theirs.

Master Chief like cookies too though, and now The Flood and The Master Chief are going to have an epic cookie battle to see who wins all the cookies, the Arbiter gets to watch and drink chocolate milk and eat cookies. SGT. Johnson doesn't like cookies though, which makes everyone in the Halo universe dislike him, Guilty Spark ended up killing him because of it. SGT. Johnson's last words were "I don't like cookies and cookies don't like me"!

Now the most epic battle for cookies is about to begin, all factions in the Halo universe are searching for all the cookies in the cookie jar, and only one shall have the cookies.

Stay tuned for more about cookies......


Interesting theory, let me guess the Prophet of Truth was going to sit back and let everyone kill themselves then he was going to steal the cookies then go on a Great Journey for more, very interesting when you think about it.

But the cookies are still out there, and all the people are fighting for the cookies! Soon there will be no more cookies for nobody!


Cool story, Bro.

Anyways, remember, there isn't just one Gravemind. There's one where ever a flood infestation reached it's final stage. So I'm considering the possibility of very many Graveminds, popping up all throughout Precursor civilization, and that's why the Precursors wouldn't be able to resist annihilation. Hundreds of simultaneous coordinated attacks from within. So even if the Forerunner knew the flood was coming, it wouldn't really be a fight. Just a slaughter.


[Edited on 07.28.2009 11:48 PM PDT]

  • 07.28.2009 11:47 PM PDT

Posted by: Koolio3000
Anyways, remember, there isn't just one Gravemind. There's one where ever a flood infestation reached it's final stage. So I'm considering the possibility of very many Graveminds, popping up all throughout Precursor civilization, and that's why the Precursors wouldn't be able to resist annihilation. Hundreds of simultaneous coordinated attacks from within. So even if the Forerunner knew the flood was coming, it wouldn't really be a fight. Just a slaughter.


This isn't necessarily true. There was never any indication in the Halo games that each instance of Gravemind interaction was not with the same one. It would be quite plausible for it to have originated on Delta Halo, boarded High Charity via a captured Covenant ship and then utilize HC's SlipSpace capabilities to jump around the events of Halo 3.

Also, the Terminal transcripts all tend to refer to the Flood's leadership (i.e. Gravemind) as a single entity. If there were more than one Gravemind, it would be reasonable to expect the Forerunner to acknowledge this in their battle strategy. Also (and this is taking the assumption that the Flood communicate telepathically), it would be a lot easier to manage everything from one single point of leadership. Even if they were all dedicated to the same cause, multiple intelligent voices reigning over the Flood would inevitable lead to conflicts of interest.

In my opinion, one Gravemind is enough.

[Edited on 07.29.2009 5:46 AM PDT]

  • 07.29.2009 5:46 AM PDT

I am Field Master Avu Med 'Telcam, Servant of the Abiding Truth, and I have many brothers.

A god who creates tools is still a god. It is not for us to impose qualifications upon the divine or presume to guess its intentions.

That is very true. there is only one gravemind, a common misunderstanding though, just because he is seen in different places doesn't mean there is more than one. Gravemind can travel.

  • 07.29.2009 9:00 AM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: SpoonGuard
This isn't necessarily true. There was never any indication in the Halo games that each instance of Gravemind interaction was not with the same one. It would be quite plausible for it to have originated on Delta Halo, boarded High Charity via a captured Covenant ship and then utilize HC's SlipSpace capabilities to jump around the events of Halo 3.

Also, the Terminal transcripts all tend to refer to the Flood's leadership (i.e. Gravemind) as a single entity. If there were more than one Gravemind, it would be reasonable to expect the Forerunner to acknowledge this in their battle strategy. Also (and this is taking the assumption that the Flood communicate telepathically), it would be a lot easier to manage everything from one single point of leadership. Even if they were all dedicated to the same cause, multiple intelligent voices reigning over the Flood would inevitable lead to conflicts of interest.

In my opinion, one Gravemind is enough.

If I remember correctly, this isn't exactly true either. There's a piece of material... somewhere where it discusses how the Forerunner were trying to figure out what would happen if "two hive minds were in close proximity to each other" (paraphrased). While that doesn't necessarily mean that more than one Hive Mind exists, as it could have just been an assumption on the Forerruner's part, it certainly makes it look like that.

I've been trying to find that bit of material for some time now, but I can't dig it up again. In reality, I wonder where I've seen it at all, as I don't think it's Beastarium content.

  • 07.29.2009 11:12 AM PDT

With B.B. gone, the passion of Bungie.net has lessened.

I know Lord Snakie already saw this, but I figured I'd share it with the rest of you.

In response to Snakie's theory about the Flood being a Precursor experiment, I'd like to propose an argument to counter this. The nice thing about theories like this is that none of them are more true than another, but I'll try to detail the reasoning behind my thoughts of the backgrounds of the Flood and Precursor races. Be warned: The way I'm writing this assumes that you know what I'm talking about. There won't be any links or quotes of documented evidence. The evidence is out there, I simply don't have the time spend putting sources in my post (sorry).

Some of you have argued that the Precursor were/are the Flood, and I think there is sufficient evidence to consider such a belief valid. However, I submit to you the thought that perhaps the Precursor were not the Flood, but rather they became the Flood in order to transcend for technological development Tier 1 to the theoretical Tier 0.

The description of Tier 0 states that essentially, a race has evolved to the point of achieving intergalactic travel and possibly the manipulation of other species' evolution. The Flood have been speculated (in canon) as being extragalactic in origin, meaning they somehow managed to obtain Tier 0-esque space-travel technology. Also, in the Halo 3 Terminals, it is implied that the Gravemind believes himself (the Flood) to be the next stage in the Evolution of life itself. Therefore, if that statement is technically accurate, if a race is absorbed into the Flood, that race's natural evolution is altered onto a different course, or the next stage. Hence, the Flood do indeed have the ability to manipulate the evolution of other species, technically. I argue that the Flood are indeed of Tier 0 if they are allowed to a certain point of development (Gravemind).

My theory isn't all related to in-universe facts and speculation. I also wish to take into account the intention of the writers of the Halo universe, and the purpose of the "Precursors" as a race in story-telling. The Halo universe already has one vastly advanced alien race that is very mysterious and seemingly vanished, leaving only their technology and the Flood behind, some 100,000 years prior to the events of Halo. What exactly would be the point of hinting at another, even more vastly advanced and mysterious intelligent race that seems to have vanished? As far as story telling goes, I don't think there is a point. It only creates a shallow element of depth to the story. An illusion, making you think there's something meaningful there (about the Precursors) that you can find more about if you look close enough, when really, there probably isn't. And I don't think it would really work if the Flood were always the Precursors (the are/were), as it completely destroys the point of even mentioning some more-than-the-forerunner-vastly-intelligent-advanced-mysterio us-race in the first place. Though, sometimes writers do like to mess with people's heads... and that's fine.

I really liked Lord Snakie's idea that the Flood was perhaps a way to catalog other races (as the Forerunners did in the Milky Way). That idea made me think of what part the Flood might play in some "Mantle" belief system that the Forerunner adopted. If the Precursors became the Flood in an attempt at transcendence and fulfilling their "Mantle," this would make sense. What better way to protect and catalog other races than to absorb all of them into your own? One mind, one body, and telepathic communication. Pretty efficient, don't you think?

And please, if there are any major "YOU'RE WRONG" holes in this little "theory," point them out. I don't mind the criticism.

  • 07.29.2009 3:31 PM PDT

I am Field Master Avu Med 'Telcam, Servant of the Abiding Truth, and I have many brothers.

A god who creates tools is still a god. It is not for us to impose qualifications upon the divine or presume to guess its intentions.

Everything you stated is very plausible, heck, almost all the comments are plausible! Which leads me to believe that bungie never actually made a backstory to the Precursors. I think threads like this are for bungie just to look at and pick the best idea and go with it. The last comment very much convinced me of that.

  • 07.29.2009 4:20 PM PDT
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Snakie I think I have found proof of the flood feeding off of thoughts. In the book Halo: The Flood when it has Keyes PoV after he has been captured by the flood it states that the buzzing seems to be feeding off of his thoughts and Memories. I'm sure there was more evidence but I recently moved and have not been able to find the book since.

  • 07.29.2009 5:25 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Person25
Snakie I think I have found proof of the flood feeding off of thoughts. In the book Halo: The Flood when it has Keyes PoV after he has been captured by the flood it states that the buzzing seems to be feeding off of his thoughts and Memories. I'm sure there was more evidence but I recently moved and have not been able to find the book since.

That's another good point, I'll find the passage and put it into the theory at the same time I add SpoonGuard's proof.

Augh! I've been so busy lately I haven't had time to update the theory with all the juicy new info we found! RAGE!

  • 07.29.2009 5:27 PM PDT

5 years and counting on Bungie. I feel old and worthless.

Amazing theory, but like you just said, you need to update some stuff.

  • 07.30.2009 12:30 AM PDT

Posted by: Shai Hulud
My theory isn't all related to in-universe facts and speculation. I also wish to take into account the intention of the writers of the Halo universe, and the purpose of the "Precursors" as a race in story-telling. The Halo universe already has one vastly advanced alien race that is very mysterious and seemingly vanished, leaving only their technology and the Flood behind, some 100,000 years prior to the events of Halo. What exactly would be the point of hinting at another, even more vastly advanced and mysterious intelligent race that seems to have vanished? As far as story telling goes, I don't think there is a point. It only creates a shallow element of depth to the story. An illusion, making you think there's something meaningful there (about the Precursors) that you can find more about if you look close enough, when really, there probably isn't. And I don't think it would really work if the Flood were always the Precursors (the are/were), as it completely destroys the point of even mentioning some more-than-the-forerunner-vastly-intelligent-advanced-mysterio us-race in the first place. Though, sometimes writers do like to mess with people's heads... and that's fine.


I don't have a problem with your theory, rather, I just don't agree on this point.

It seems to me that the Halo community, including both fans and creators, are at a critical point in the evolution of the story arch.

With 6 games (two yet to be released), 9 books (including Forerunner trilogy), comics, web events and film shorts, the Halo universe has had a good amount of canonical exposure. We know the history of humanity over the last 500 years, the origins of the Covenant's individual species and, with the conclusion of Halo 3, an explanation for most of the major mysteries surrounding the Forerunner.

Yes, there is still a fair bit left to be known about their culture and history but the major plot points have been covered. Remember the days between Halos 2 and 3 when rampant speculation over "who are the Forerunner" yielded a vast and rich amount of communal cranial fodder? Now look at how many threads are made discussing Forerunner origins...virtually none. The veil has been lifted, the stone overturned. Any future dealings with Forerunner lore in Halo games or novels can only be about mastering some nifty piece of technology, not how or why the Forerunner are no longer here. The quest for the Big Picture, that which this community is so famous for, has ended.

Thus, our need for the Precursor angle.

As this thread shows, there is still a lot left to be explained about the Flood. An extra-galactic, super-intelligent hive-mind that doesn't just kill everything, but actually infects and assimilates all sentient life it encounters? Not to marginalize the Forerunner, but sounds like a much more in-depth and complicated story than just a very technologically advanced race.

So where do the Precursor come in? From a canonical standpoint, my guess is as good as yours. We don't know. But from the story-telling standpoint, the universe always operates in equal and opposite pairs. The Precursor are the necessary match to the Flood. I don't know and won't try to explain their role, suffice to say that (if Bungie/Halo Team/whoever decides to lead the story in that direction) it will be a prominent one.

  • 07.30.2009 5:58 AM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Version 2.5 of the theory is up!

New sections include an acknowledgments section (with a hefty nod to SpoonGuard), an addition of the "proof" first up in the second post, and the addition of "Why do the Flood Infect?" in the third post.

Enjoy!

  • 07.30.2009 11:37 PM PDT
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Zombies!

i think flood as a memory search and storage seems highly reasonable

  • 07.31.2009 5:12 PM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution V2.5!

Plekpedia - The most epic site in the history of ever.

Good updates.

  • 07.31.2009 5:38 PM PDT

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Twitter!


Hmm.. the Gravemind couldn't be an A.I.
read up on the Proto-gravemind.
they form in a large presence of flood, and it is possible for them to form one or more
Gravemind.

"The Gravemind is attempting to rebuild itself on this ring!'

[Edited on 07.31.2009 5:56 PM PDT]

  • 07.31.2009 5:55 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Twisted Youth
Wat.

How does a Proto-Gravemind being able to form a Gravemind make this theory impossible? It just... doesn't.

  • 07.31.2009 6:04 PM PDT
Subject: The Precursor, The Flood, and the Acceleration of Evolution V2.2!

My troll sense is tingling.

The precursor, Forerunner, Humans and the whole take up the mantle thing sounds an awful lot like Mass Effect. O_o

  • 08.01.2009 4:12 AM PDT
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Another reason why I like the Halo Universe.
Great job on you're theory Snakie, keep it coming.

  • 08.01.2009 5:01 AM PDT