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This topic has moved here: Subject: Could "Buck" Edward (ODST), be the surviving clone of Joh...
  • Subject: Could "Buck" Edward (ODST), be the surviving clone of Joh...
Subject: Could "Buck" Edward (ODST), be the surviving clone of Joh...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcQcMTYlEPE

Hey Max it could be useful to add this to the OP.

Now, his service record shows that he was born in 2510, you know who else was born around that time? John 117. From the book the fall of Reach we know that John was 6 on August 17, 2517, making his birth date either in 2510 or 2511. Now we also know that the children who were taken for the Spartan program were replaced with Flash Clones. These clones did not normally live for more than a few months or years, just long enough that no one would be alarmed by their children being missing (though the only evidence I could find for this short lifespan was from the ARG I Love Bees). From various other materials we know that John was different than the other Spartans, not necessarily stronger or faster, or even a better leader. We do know however, that he was "lucky". This "luck" or whatever you want to call it may have transferred over to his flash clone and allowed it to live beyond the normal life expectancy, or allowed the clone to live through two of the most horrific battles in the Halo Universe, the Fall of Reach and the liberation of Harvest. The one major discrepancy with this theory is that it says Buck was born on Draco III and John was living on Eridanus 2 in 2517, however it never states where he was born, his parents may have moved from Draco III to Eridanus. There are other possibilities to explain the location discrepancy, but that jumps out at me.

There is one other note in Buck's field guide that makes me think of another possibility, of Buck it is said that if he were any better he would be a Spartan. Now in 2517 when the Spartan program was finishing up the abductions of it's candidates he would have been 6 or 7, the ideal age for the program. We also know from the Fall of Reach book that their were 150 candidates yet only 75 could be conscripted. I believe that if Buck is not John's flash clone he may very well have been a considered but rejected Spartan candidate. The hints in his field guide lead me to believe he does not just have your run of the mill ODST origin.

TLDR Version: Buck may be John 117's flash clone or a rejected Spartan candidate.

  • 06.05.2009 9:09 AM PDT
Subject: Could "Buck" Edward (ODST), be a surviving clone of John-...

Right just watched the first level demo footage and I'm afraid, much to the annoyance of RvB, that it proves nothing.
What we have to go on in terms of looks is brown hair, which John also has - and yes I know millions of people have brown hair - and it does not show his teeth, for the gap that was mentioned in the fall of Reach.

So basically we are still left in the dark in terms of whether he actually looks like John or not.

We don't know where John was actually born.

John's birth year is only stated on Halopedia, but it does not state the source.
If someone simply counted out the years then we have a problem. What year was actually represented when the person counted, and what month was it in that specific year. (an example: I'm 34 and I'll be 35 this year, but not until December. So if someone tried to determine my age they may get it wrong by a year as they might not know my birth month).

RvB and plenty of others keep stating that all of the Flash Clones died shortly after the children were recruited/abducted by Dr. Halsey. But none of you, that have argued this, have come back with the related paragraph from the book, word for word.

Did catherine Halsey witness their deaths?
Did Catherine Halsey examine all of the bodies?
Did Catherine Halsey attend the funerals?
Was it Catherine Halsey that actually stated they had all died?

All of these need to be answered.

There are of course other possibilities...
The clone is actually dead.
Buck may be a Spartan I with no relation to John.
Buck might be John's brother.
Buck might be John's twin.

If we answer the basic and primary question of who stated the clones had died then we might be getting somewhere. Then we can move on to the next question...

Did the person stating the deaths of the clones attend their funerals/autopsies?

  • 06.05.2009 9:10 AM PDT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcQcMTYlEPE

The only actual info I was able to find about the clones failures was from ILB. Buck is too young to be a Spartan I but it is likely if not a certainty that he could have been considered for the Spartan II program but rejected.

  • 06.05.2009 9:13 AM PDT

Please anyone, that has the remaining Halo books, look up the information concerning the flash clones and sort this out.

  • 06.05.2009 9:14 AM PDT
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Editing... Flash cloning info will be up in a sec.

[Edited on 06.05.2009 9:18 AM PDT]

  • 06.05.2009 9:18 AM PDT

Posted by: TN The Colony
Posted by: venix445
Posted by: Wv Hellbilly76
any ideas?

i heard... that its shishkas skull... bungie x-rayed his head and put that in as the oddball, they did so that they can put shishka in every oddball match to keep an eye on us to make sure we dont cheat remember this next time you go into oddball... shishkas watching...


PURE WIN!

it definantley seems plausable and bungie are devious... maybe

  • 06.05.2009 9:20 AM PDT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcQcMTYlEPE

I couldn't find any in my copy of The Fall of Reach so I went to Halo Wiki and they cited ILB's Saxon Chapter 7, so I listened to that and it would seem that's where the majority of our belief over their health failure comes from. Also just noticed the simplest thing that made me lol, Buck's name is Edward, not John.

  • 06.05.2009 9:27 AM PDT

Yes, but as Buck is his nickname, is edward his surname of first name?

  • 06.05.2009 9:29 AM PDT

So you watched the demo, right? And you heard Nathan Fillion as Buck, right? and you played the other Halo games, and therefore heard John's voice, right? So PLEASE stop this rediculous thread. Why does Buck have to be related to John at all? Can't he just be another good soldier like Johnson and the other ODSTs? Him being a clone of John is not only not plausible at all, but would ruin the story if it were true.

  • 06.05.2009 9:31 AM PDT

Fair enough, but does the audio output system on the Mjolnir armour differ from the ODST armour? Additionally is your voice different with either set of armour on?

Thanks Dream. At least someone is looking it up.

[Edited on 06.05.2009 9:34 AM PDT]

  • 06.05.2009 9:33 AM PDT

I hardly think they would go to such lengths just to change the voice of the main character, and the 'audio output' on the armor is probably as simple as it gets. Why would the UNSC spend even more time and money putting voice changers for the already stupidly-expensive Mjolnir armor.

Just listening to Johns voice, its way too deep and gruff to sound even remotely like Buck's, and the changing of armor wouldn't change that one bit.

  • 06.05.2009 9:42 AM PDT
Subject: Could "Buck" Edward (ODST), be the surviving clone of Joh...

Remember Reach!

I like theories like this one that are thinking way outside of the box but possible... I'm assuming that the age is a coincidence but yeah. It's possible that John's clone got off the planet before it was glassed and for some reason had the same calling and wanted to join the UNSC and became an ODST... This is a very interesting theory even though it more than likely isn't true.

  • 06.05.2009 9:48 AM PDT
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Plus a lot of the outer colonies would of been glassed already by the time that John would of gotten any older (if he hadnt been taken for the Spartan II program) and the book does say that the clones were meant to die shortly after which was already touched on. I think thats kinda "shooting from the hip" speculation to say he is a surviving clone

  • 06.05.2009 10:11 AM PDT
Subject: Could "Buck" Edward (ODST), be a surviving clone of John-...

I came, I saw, I took a piss, and then that noob came outta nowhere and gravity hammered me!

.......... buddy......... get a life and stop reading halo graphic novels, it's a video game and the story is completely made up, you sound like one of those losers who make fan fiction and then think that it's real, that somehow all this will happen in the future and that the people at bungie can see the future or something dumb like that.

  • 06.05.2009 10:14 AM PDT

Hi, I am the White Mamba Overlord of our group the ODSM.
We are not a clan, and we don't play the game for competition. Instead we play for fun, and to hang out with friends. If you are interested in joining go to our group homepage and sign up. Membership is open.
We are mostly a Halo 3: ODST group for help with achievements and stuff, but we also will play a lot of Halo 3 matchmaking.

Why would he have a different name though? The spartans were secretly abducted and flash cloned..... The parents wouldn't have changed his name...

  • 06.05.2009 10:15 AM PDT
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Aka No_Consequence

No.

He is not a clone.

End of thread

  • 06.05.2009 10:16 AM PDT

Challenge me to a Hawaiian Punch chugging contest. I dare you.


Posted by: mubox47
$.50 in store credit.

Buck grew up on Draco 3, thats why he is a citizen there. And no, he is not a clone. The parents of the abducted kids did not know about the spartan project or that their kids were missing. If he was a clone, his name would be John.

  • 06.05.2009 10:16 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

If you haven't read the books, you lose your speculating ability.

Seriously, read the books, or don't talk.

  • 06.05.2009 10:17 AM PDT

Challenge me to a Hawaiian Punch chugging contest. I dare you.


Posted by: mubox47
$.50 in store credit.

Posted by: hurricane274
.......... buddy......... get a life and stop reading halo graphic novels, it's a video game and the story is completely made up, you sound like one of those losers who make fan fiction and then think that it's real, that somehow all this will happen in the future and that the people at bungie can see the future or something dumb like that.
Thats really unnecessary. You dont even know this person, how can oyu tell him to get a life?

  • 06.05.2009 10:17 AM PDT

Hi, I am the White Mamba Overlord of our group the ODSM.
We are not a clan, and we don't play the game for competition. Instead we play for fun, and to hang out with friends. If you are interested in joining go to our group homepage and sign up. Membership is open.
We are mostly a Halo 3: ODST group for help with achievements and stuff, but we also will play a lot of Halo 3 matchmaking.

Posted by: The EAKLE
Posted by: hurricane274
.......... buddy......... get a life and stop reading halo graphic novels, it's a video game and the story is completely made up, you sound like one of those losers who make fan fiction and then think that it's real, that somehow all this will happen in the future and that the people at bungie can see the future or something dumb like that.
Thats really unnecessary. You dont even know this person, how can oyu tell him to get a life?

Because secretly he dosn't even have a life and thinks that it will make him feel better if he makes fun of people on a video game website. =P
Just ignore him and move along. He is a jerk and we all know that.

  • 06.05.2009 10:21 AM PDT

On Waypoint I'm rocketFox;
http://halo.xbox.com/forums/members/rocketfox/default.aspx

Old GTs; RebelRobot, Flamedude

This idea seems too far-fetched to me. It just doesn't "fit" in my mind. Also not sure whats wrong with the ODSTs being normal tough-as-nails human marines really, I think its better in many ways.

  • 06.05.2009 10:21 AM PDT
Subject: Could Buck Edwards (ODST), be the surviving clone of John-117?

Time flies like an arrow; fruits flies like a banana.

John's flash-clone wasn't able to live for more than a few months, and died of 'natural causes'.

  • 06.05.2009 10:25 AM PDT
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One thing that kind of disproves the theory is that John was named John before he was abducted into the Spartan II program. He could have changed his name, but who changes their name to Buck?

  • 06.05.2009 10:27 AM PDT

Remember, there is another avenue to explore: His brother or twin.

  • 06.05.2009 11:27 AM PDT
Subject: Could "Buck" Edward (ODST), be a surviving clone of John-...
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I do not appreciate B.Net Group solicitation. If you ignore this and send me an invitation anyway, I will block communications with you.

The Truth about Flash Cloning

"What the hell was he up to?" she muttered. She felt her pulse quicken as she scoured his records. There were DNA profiles on each Spartans, and there were extensive files on the old flash clone techniques that ONI had used to replace the originals. Ackerson had followed the medial records of the replacements as they grew up, succumbed to congenital diseases, and inveitably died. He even had the bodies retrieved and autopsies performed.

. . .

Dr. Halsey's stomach soured. It was her fault, in part, that these replacement children had died so young. They had never perfected flash cloning for an entire human. They had done it anyway thirty years ago because the Earth government was on the verge of falling apart . . collapsing into a hundred civil wars. They had desperately needed the SPARTAN program. And of course, they had done it simply because they could (First Strike, p. 129).


Additionally, here is an excerpt from the same novel in which the flash cloning is used to clone the brain, a feat much more ethical, both morally as well as technologically, than full human subjects:

At Dr. Halsey's insistence, ONI had arranged to have her own brain carefully cloned and her memories flash-transferred to the receptable organs. Only one of the twenty cloned brains survived the process (TFoR, p. 236).

And lastly, here is an excerpt from I Love Bees, which is embraced as canonical, to further illustrate the idea that flash cloning technology does not produce subjects that can survive:

(Because this excerpt is extensive, I have truncated it down, and bolded the significant pieces of dialogue:)
Kamal: Wow. Nice lab.
Aiden: They do plastic surgery research here. So anyway Kamal, how hard is it to flash-clone somebody?
Kamal: Uh, flash cloning is illegal
Aiden: Illegal, sure. Hacking the CP probably is too.
Kamal: I mean like child -blam!- illegal, Aiden.
Aiden: Come on...
Kamal: Sentence to memory modification illegal..

Aiden: It's not that serious, I looked it up.

. . .

Kamal: O.k., it doesn't work.
Aiden: What do you mean, it doesn't work? Of course it works!
Kamal: Flash clones aren't just like rubber stamps of the original.
Aiden: But close right?
Kamal: No you take an embryo and develop it 100x faster than it would have naturally
and what you get is something different--

Aiden: --So we do plastic surgery to make them look right. Hell, you could do that
couldn't you?
Kamal: That isn't what I study.
Aiden: Big deal, study it now.
Kamal: Aiden, all these anomalies pop up because flash clones are forced to go through
time too fast--

Aiden: --Kamal, no science gaff. Give me the executive summary.

. . .

Kamal: Ok, flash clones don't know how to talk.
Aiden: They don't have to talk. Stars wave and smile, Kamal. They walk down red carpets and show off their clothes. Nobody wants to hear them talk.
Kamal: Well they don't know how to wave and smile either.
Aiden: Come again?
Kamal: Clones don't have any muscle memory. No training like you and I just got observing people while we were crawli--
Aiden: --Ok, ok, whatever. Doesn't matter, we'll prop them up behind tables, put sunglasses on them, and make them look arrogant and bored. People love that.
Kamal: Also, they'll drool, like babies.
Aiden: We'll make sure they've got managers with them. (impersonating an agent) Miss
Pop-Star doesn't believe that this role fully realizes her artistic integrity Kamal: Aiden, Christ, would you listen to me! You can train them - intensive therapy - but after a year or two they start to degenerate; metabolic instability.
Aiden: That takes care of the problem of what to do with them afterwards, right?
Kamal: Oh come on, about the time you might get them to be coherent, to talk and walk, all these little errors in their systems add up and you get a metabolic cascade failure---

(Kamal drops glass)
Aiden: Hey, you ok?
Kamal: Oh my God... Yasmine... (runs out)


Flash clones do not survive.

[Edited on 06.05.2009 12:07 PM PDT]

  • 06.05.2009 12:05 PM PDT