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Subject: Sierra 259 and 320 Resolution
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Master Chief's group of Spartan 2s only numbered to 150. So these higher numbered call signs either imply that Bungie is breaking the canon of the book or these Spartans mentioned in the trailer are from a second class of Spartan 2s or Spartan 3s.

In the beginning of Halo 2 the Master Chief receives his new MJOLNIR Mark VI Armor. When being fitted the Engineer says something like "just came up from Songam this morning". This line seems to imply that the armor is new, which begs the question of why spend the resources developing a suit for one guy(or however many original 2s are still alive) because the Spartan 3s don't use that armor type.

The answer seems to be that this Sierra 259 and 320 are a second class of Spartan 2s that were trained and put together sometime after Master Chief's group. Considering that Spartan 3s wouldn't use the Mark 6 it implies that later MJOLNIR armors were made with the intent that the Spartan 2 project would have more soldiers to equip.

If they didn't continue on after MC's group it would have bin silly to develop new armors for the few number of survivors of that group and the Spartan 3s used an entirely different setup.

Of course there are those who will say Sierra 259=Sierra II 059. But would note that Master Chief is referred to as only Sierra 117 and not Sierra II 117. Also with the Sierra 320 that would mean Spartan III 020. However the answer could be that because both Spartan 2s and 3s are on the ground they have to differenciate between the two in call signs(were MC didn't).

Evidence for the 'Banner Team' being Spartan 1s is lacking. Consider that they would be old as dirt(like Johnson) and a team of old people as your main cast doesn't seem like a bright idea. They also didn't have power armor...so they would have to be Surviving Spartan 1s who were recruited into one of the newer Spartan programs.

Although I half expect they are Spartan 3s. It would be a good selling point...'next generation of spartans' and all that. Also gives the game a potential younger cast to match the audiences demographic.

  • 06.03.2009 10:13 PM PDT

that does make sense and in the book the fall of reach wen masterchief and the other spartan 2's grduate CPO mendez says he has to go train the second wave of spartans and i doubt he is talking about the spartan 3's because that was a secret project

  • 06.03.2009 10:21 PM PDT

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I think, by far, your strongest point is the strange possibility that the MARK VI armor was created solely for the Master Chief. It's a lot of money to spend on one man, even if he is the savior of mankind.

Then again, that could be the reason they would spend the money on him. If you've got a fighting chance, you might as well equip it with the best.

  • 06.03.2009 10:27 PM PDT
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The spartan 3's weren't even trained at this point were they? they were with kurt in training on Onyx I think.

  • 06.03.2009 10:29 PM PDT
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Posted by: jestr boy 123
that does make sense and in the book the fall of reach wen masterchief and the other spartan 2's grduate CPO mendez says he has to go train the second wave of spartans and i doubt he is talking about the spartan 3's because that was a secret project


Also from what i remember the Spartan 3s were an entirely different beast...cheaper and expendable and clearly don't use any of the Spartan 2 armor sets.

259 and 320 seem most likely to be second generation Spartan 2s. You just don't spend billions of dollars developing new armor for a few surviving Spartans.

Also in the Fall of Reach, in the very begining, Hasley and Keyes are scouting young John for potential recruitment. The reason they select him is because of Luck(he guessed the coin toss correctly). Keyes asks why base it on Luck? And Hasley replies and says she has a ton of potential candidates ut can only select a certain number because of cost reasons so she has to have that Luck that sets them apart. So Obviously there were a bunch more children that had the genetic markers to be selected but weren't selected because only a certain number was allowed for the first batch.

  • 06.03.2009 10:30 PM PDT
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I wouldn't want to be a weaker spartan III. From all the descriptions they sound feeble.

  • 06.03.2009 10:32 PM PDT
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i don't think that they could be Spartan lll's because Spartan lll's refer to themselves with letters and numbers. Ex: Spartan-B292 who is Tom.
And what do you know about the Spartan l's. I dont know anything about them.

  • 06.03.2009 10:33 PM PDT
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Posted by: AngelxDeath
I think, by far, your strongest point is the strange possibility that the MARK VI armor was created solely for the Master Chief. It's a lot of money to spend on one man, even if he is the savior of mankind.

Then again, that could be the reason they would spend the money on him. If you've got a fighting chance, you might as well equip it with the best.


Well there were a handful of other surviving Spartans but still not worth the cost.

Logically it wouldn't be worth it. The Mark V still did it's job incredibly well so they just could have gave him another Mark 5 out of stock.

If I remember correctly the Mark Vs suits cost as much as a battle ship. Add in R&D and it is too much of a cost for one man(or the 5 or whatever that still live).

  • 06.03.2009 10:36 PM PDT
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Here check this thread out I made. Talks about how 5 spartan 2's disappear in The Fall of Reach. Pretty cool. http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=33481756

[Edited on 06.03.2009 10:39 PM PDT]

  • 06.03.2009 10:38 PM PDT
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Posted by: jestr boy 123
that does make sense and in the book the fall of reach wen masterchief and the other spartan 2's grduate CPO mendez says he has to go train the second wave of spartans and i doubt he is talking about the spartan 3's because that was a secret project


Well it's exactly what he did; train the S-III's.

Mendez left reach on November 2, 2525. He began training the S-III's on December 27th, 2531.

There was no second group of spartan II's ever trained...

Ghosts of Onyx: p. 62

Ackerson stared at him a moment, then seemed to look through Kurt, past him. "I want you to train the next generation of Spartans."

Kurt blinked, taking in what Ackerson had just said, not quite understanding. "Sir, i was under the impression that chief petty officer Mendez had been reassigned years ago to carry out that mission."

"The effort to tain additional Spartan-II's was postponed indefinitely by Dr. Catherine Halsey," Ackerson said.

  • 06.03.2009 10:38 PM PDT
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Posted by: Shades of Chaos
i don't think that they could be Spartan lll's because Spartan lll's refer to themselves with letters and numbers. Ex: Spartan-B292 who is Tom.
And what do you know about the Spartan l's. I dont know anything about them.


They are barely mentioned. Johnson is heavily implied to be one...in storytelling if its rumored or implied it usually means it is true(no need for a red herring here). So think Johnson.

Most died, the project was deemed a failure. Any survivors would be really old(like Johnson), MC himself is in his 40s I think...thinks Spartan 1s would be pushing 80. An old cast wouldn't be good for business.

They didn't have power suits...so even if they are Spartan 1s, they are in Spartan 2 armor and got recruited into that second program at some point.

Maybe one of them will be a Spartan 1...but not all of them.

  • 06.03.2009 10:41 PM PDT
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Posted by: Vaterzeit
The spartan 3's weren't even trained at this point were they? they were with kurt in training on Onyx I think.


The battle of reach began on August 29th, 2552.

The Spartan III's Beta Company was in action July 3rd, 2545.

Gamma company graduated training Febuary 20, 2551.

Plenty of spartan III's had been trained and put into service. How many (if any) of them survived, the missions they were sent on and how many were still in action is up for debate.

  • 06.03.2009 10:43 PM PDT
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Posted by: K Funk
Posted by: jestr boy 123
that does make sense and in the book the fall of reach wen masterchief and the other spartan 2's grduate CPO mendez says he has to go train the second wave of spartans and i doubt he is talking about the spartan 3's because that was a secret project


Well it's exactly what he did; train the S-III's.

Mendez left reach on November 2, 2525. He began training the S-III's on December 27th, 2531.

There was no second group of spartan II's ever trained...

Ghosts of Onyx: p. 62

Ackerson stared at him a moment, then seemed to look through Kurt, past him. "I want you to train the next generation of Spartans."

Kurt blinked, taking in what Ackerson had just said, not quite understanding. "Sir, i was under the impression that chief petty officer Mendez had been reassigned years ago to carry out that mission."

"The effort to tain additional Spartan-II's was postponed indefinitely by Dr. Catherine Halsey," Ackerson said.


This doesn't mean that a second class never existed. It wasn't cancelled only postponed, also one line of dialogue fixes that "She said that as a cover" or "somebody else took over the project" or "five minutes after she said that, it started up again".

If it's not a second class of Spartan 2s then Bungie is either breaking canon of the novel(entirely possible) or these Spartans mentioned are Spartan 3s.

Were the Spartan 3s even present on Reach(don't think so but not sure)?

  • 06.03.2009 10:47 PM PDT

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Posted by: AngelxDeath
I think, by far, your strongest point is the strange possibility that the MARK VI armor was created solely for the Master Chief. It's a lot of money to spend on one man, even if he is the savior of mankind.
I think you're overestimating the level of thought that goes into Halo's storyline. The armor was new because Bungie wanted to upgrade the Chief's look and abilities for Halo 2. If there were any explanations, it's likely they didn't come until after they threw it in there.

  • 06.03.2009 10:47 PM PDT

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Posted by: K Funk
Posted by: Vaterzeit
The spartan 3's weren't even trained at this point were they? they were with kurt in training on Onyx I think.


The battle of reach began on August 29th, 2552.

The Spartan III's Beta Company was in action July 3rd, 2545.

Gamma company graduated training Febuary 20, 2551.

Plenty of spartan III's had been trained and put into service. How many (if any) of them survived, the missions they were sent on and how many were still in action is up for debate.


I'm in agreement with the majority of users, when saying that playing as the Spartan III's would probably be a waste of time. Generally not worth it.

However, it would be kind of interesting to be a lesser-Spartan. A shadow of the Master Chief, even the other Spartan Ii's running on the surface of Reach at the time. While not an ODST, something slightly better. Might be interesting.

  • 06.03.2009 10:48 PM PDT
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Posted by: Cadetak
Posted by: AngelxDeath
I think, by far, your strongest point is the strange possibility that the MARK VI armor was created solely for the Master Chief. It's a lot of money to spend on one man, even if he is the savior of mankind.

Then again, that could be the reason they would spend the money on him. If you've got a fighting chance, you might as well equip it with the best.


Well there were a handful of other surviving Spartans but still not worth the cost.

Logically it wouldn't be worth it. The Mark V still did it's job incredibly well so they just could have gave him another Mark 5 out of stock.

If I remember correctly the Mark Vs suits cost as much as a battle ship. Add in R&D and it is too much of a cost for one man(or the 5 or whatever that still live).


Generally speaking, If humanity was about to be exterminated why would money be an issue? The economy would already be in shambles.

  • 06.03.2009 10:49 PM PDT

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Posted by: Hawaii6U
Posted by: AngelxDeath
I think, by far, your strongest point is the strange possibility that the MARK VI armor was created solely for the Master Chief. It's a lot of money to spend on one man, even if he is the savior of mankind.
I think you're overestimating the level of thought that goes into Halo's storyline. The armor was new because Bungie wanted to upgrade the Chief's look and abilities for Halo 2. If there were any explanations, it's likely they didn't come until after they threw it in there.


Agreed. The obvious explanation would be that Bungie wanted to give the audience something new, of course. However, in the heart of the story, it would be fair to assume they had a reason to make a new armor, and not just for an audience. They had to have a reason within the story, you know?

There were other Spartans that could have used the new armor, for sure. But, the main purpose seems to be for Master Chief.

  • 06.03.2009 10:50 PM PDT
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Posted by: Hawaii6U
Posted by: AngelxDeath
I think, by far, your strongest point is the strange possibility that the MARK VI armor was created solely for the Master Chief. It's a lot of money to spend on one man, even if he is the savior of mankind.
I think you're overestimating the level of thought that goes into Halo's storyline. The armor was new because Bungie wanted to upgrade the Chief's look and abilities for Halo 2. If there were any explanations, it's likely they didn't come until after they threw it in there.


That is likely. But they put in the line "Well, I guess it was all obsolete anyway. Your new suit's a Mark VI, just came up from Songnam this morning" which implies that this armor is hot off the press new.

I'm confident however that Bungie is just going to break novel continuity

  • 06.03.2009 10:52 PM PDT
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Posted by: Boziboy Master
Posted by: Cadetak
Posted by: AngelxDeath
I think, by far, your strongest point is the strange possibility that the MARK VI armor was created solely for the Master Chief. It's a lot of money to spend on one man, even if he is the savior of mankind.

Then again, that could be the reason they would spend the money on him. If you've got a fighting chance, you might as well equip it with the best.


Well there were a handful of other surviving Spartans but still not worth the cost.

Logically it wouldn't be worth it. The Mark V still did it's job incredibly well so they just could have gave him another Mark 5 out of stock.

If I remember correctly the Mark Vs suits cost as much as a battle ship. Add in R&D and it is too much of a cost for one man(or the 5 or whatever that still live).


Generally speaking, If humanity was about to be exterminated why would money be an issue? The economy would already be in shambles.


There is still a cost. Think of our real wars, World War 2 for example...messy economy and -blam!-'s taking over.

Also the Spartan 3 project was created to deal with the cost issues of the Spartan 2 project so there seems to be budgetary concerns within the UNSC.

[Edited on 06.03.2009 10:56 PM PDT]

  • 06.03.2009 10:55 PM PDT

Posted by: AngelxDeath
I think, by far, your strongest point is the strange possibility that the MARK VI armor was created solely for the Master Chief. It's a lot of money to spend on one man, even if he is the savior of mankind.

Then again, that could be the reason they would spend the money on him. If you've got a fighting chance, you might as well equip it with the best.

I believe this is true, as shown in the graphic novel that a fellow spartan retiree tested it before having it shipped to MC. I believe that the other spartans got pieces of the mark 6, as it was too expensive as a whole

  • 06.03.2009 10:58 PM PDT
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I understand that the book portrays there being budget costs to account for. I'm just saying, If aliens invaded earth right now, and the fate of the planet was at stake, they would not be worrying about money. That's were "win at all costs" comes in.

Regarding WWII: messy economy or not, it didn't stop Hiroshima from happening.

[Edited on 06.03.2009 11:05 PM PDT]

  • 06.03.2009 11:03 PM PDT
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Posted by: Boziboy Master
I understand that the book portrays their being budget costs to account for. I'm just saying, If aliens invaded earth right now, and the fate of the planet was at stake, they would not be worrying about money. That's were "win at all costs" comes in.

Regarding WWII: messy economy or not, it didn't stop Hiroshima from happening.


It's irrelevant because obviously there is a cost concern...whether there should be or not.

  • 06.03.2009 11:06 PM PDT

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You are right. And, if it weren't for the fact that the Spartan III program started for the exact reasons we're discussing, it would be a fool-proof explanation. In our logic, spending every dime we have for the safety of humankind makes sense, but there has to be a limit somewhere. Do we spend all our money on armor? Or do we spend it on carriers, or ships, to defend off-surface?

  • 06.03.2009 11:07 PM PDT
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Posted by: Cadetak
This doesn't mean that a second class never existed. It wasn't cancelled only postponed, also one line of dialogue fixes that "She said that as a cover" or "somebody else took over the project" or "five minutes after she said that, it started up again".

If it's not a second class of Spartan 2s then Bungie is either breaking canon of the novel(entirely possible) or these Spartans mentioned are Spartan 3s.

Were the Spartan 3s even present on Reach(don't think so but not sure)?


So mendez trained them in six years? I think not. No one had the capability to produce them outside of Dr. Halsey... also to go further into that section of GoO...

"The effort to rain additional SPARTAN-II's was postponed indefinetly by Dr. Catherine Halsey," Ackerson said. "There were other candidates within the gene pool. but they were out of synch with her age restrictions protocols. And with the continuing war, her program funds were... diverted."

This is a refernece to the begining of the book where Ackerson begins his plan to create the S-III's. (Elaborated in chapter 2, page 42).

This took place on October 24, 2531.

so...

Mendez leaves November 2, 2525
Mjolnir mk IV completed november 27, 2525
Mjolnir mk V completed August 25, 2552
Mjolnir mk VI completed October 20, 2552.

Presumably if only one set of Mk VI armor was made, it would fit for your theory (though some prototype pieces were sent to reach)

But all i'm saying is that there is no agrument that you could make to back up that there was a second class of spartans, as it would go against current cannon and that there could be S-III's on reach. It's just unlikely.


  • 06.03.2009 11:10 PM PDT
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True it is irrelevant, it was just a "in reality it wouldn't be that way" type of thought.

  • 06.03.2009 11:12 PM PDT

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