Halo: Reach Forum
This topic has moved here: Subject: The Spartans in the Reach Teaser ARE "Class 1" Spartan-IIs
  • Subject: The Spartans in the Reach Teaser ARE "Class 1" Spartan-IIs
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • of 3
Subject: The Spartans in the Reach Teaser ARE "Class 1" Spartan-IIs
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

I do not appreciate B.Net Group solicitation. If you ignore this and send me an invitation anyway, I will block communications with you.

Please do not quote the OP posts in their entirety. If there is something you wish to respond to, cut out everything but the portion that you wish to address. That will help us all when dealing with the already abnormally large size of the thread. If you see someone who has quoted an entire post without appropriately cutting it up, please REPORT it.

Note: As you read through, watch for superscript numbers such as these: ¹ They indicate that the paragraph they are tagged on to have received a compelling or overruling counterargument which has been provided by a contributor in this thread, and that at the bottom of the fourth post of this thread, you can find either a quote of, or a link to their post, which will have the same superscript number.


This theory (more accurately a hypothesis) sprouted from the continuous controversy over the Halo: Reach teaser's "Spartan-259" and "Spartan-320", and how their numbers must instantly mean that they are of "Class 2" of the Spartan-II Program. I feel that there is a lot of assumption going on regarding the Spartan callsigns / "conscription" numbers and the original selection process, and so I've busted out my novels in an attempt to provide a plausible explanation as to how and why these Spartans are part of the first "class" or "wave" of Spartan-II supersoldiers, rather than being from some sort of subsequent class.

Disclaimer: I do not in any way, shape, or form support the idea that "259" refers to Spartan-2 "059" rather than simply being a direct part of the callsign number. My theory does not deal with that incredibly silly, weightless supposition in any way, so do not bring it up here.

Thesis: The original 150-candidate group of children that was later cut in half to become the "first class" of 75 Spartan-II soldiers was a number dwindled down from an even larger pool of potential candidates for the program, thereby rendering the misconception that Spartan callsigns above 150 having to be from a secondary "class" as very unlikely.

Introduction: While I won't spent too much time giving backstory here, as I'm sure we're all quite accompanied to canonical Halo lore, I feel it is necessary to reiterate a few things here in order to help refresh both your memory as well as how you conceive this continuous debate.

The opposition to which my thesis is directed, is the idea that Spartans whose identification numbers go beyond "150" are instantly signified as being not from the first "class" of Spartan-II soldiers, but are a secondary "class". It is vitally important to understand where the idea of this "second class" of Spartans even came from:

Understanding The Spartan-II Project: "Class 2":
The idea of a secondary wave of Spartan-IIs was initially introduced into the novels during a briefing by Vice Admiral Stanforth to the Spartan-IIs about discovering the existence of The Covenant. After informing them that their training would have to be accelerated to its final phase, assimilation with Project MJOLNIR, he went on to inform them that CPO Mendez would be leaving to train a secondary wave of Spartan-IIs, as seen in this excerpt from Eryic Nylund's, "The Fall of Reach":

"The Fall of Reach", p. 99 - Admiral Stanforth and the Spartan-IIs
0600 Hours, November 2, 2525 (Military Calendar) /
Epsilon Eridani System, Reach UNSC Military Complex,
planet Reach

. . .
"To that end, I'm afraid I have another unpleasant announcement."

He turned to the Chief. "Chief Petty Officer Mendez will be departing us to train the next group of Spartans. Chief?"

Pushing "Dead or Alive 4"'s Nicole-458 aside, as she is entirely non-canonical, it seems that some people have also wrongly considered there to have been a second, canonical instance in which a Spartan-II, Class 2 was indicated, particularly in "I Love Bees", the Alternate Realty Game marketing project that hyped up Halo 2's release, when it is revealed that Durga, a splintered personality from a smart AI named "Melissa", was actually created via cognitive impression mapping from the mind of a Spartan girl who died during augmentation processes. However there is never any mention of what type of Spartan class this is:

"I Love Bees" - 'Kamal Meets Durga'
circa September, 2552

Durga: I'm not--I'm not Yasmine. I'm merely copied from her personality matrix. Your sister was abducted into the Spartan class of [2537], but she washed out.

"I Love Bees" - 'Had to Tell You'

circa September, 2552

Jersey: But, if they took Yasmine when she was 6, then 8 years of Spartan training, Kamal's 18, she dies... how old is Kamal?
Durga: 25.

As we can see, it is shown here that the Yasmine character is purported to have been conscripted into a Spartan program in 2537 at the age of six years-old, but it is not indicated whether it is the Spartan-II program's "2nd class", or if it is instead the Spartan-III program which, conveniently enough, had its second conscription process expedited in the midst of this very same year:

"Ghosts of Onyx", p. 88 - Vice Admiral Parangosky, Kurt-051
0900 Hours, July 30, 2537 (Military Calendar) \ Aboard
UNSC Point of No Return, Location Classified
(5 years fater Alpha Company introctrination)


"We have identified 375 candidates," Kurt said. "Slightly less than we started with for Alpha Company, but we have learned from our mistakes. We will be able to graduate a much higher percentage this time."

. . .

"Now I want you to focus and accelerate the training of the Beta Company Spartans," [Vice Admiral Parangosky] said. "We have a war to win."

According to the I Love Bees timeline, Yasmine would have died due to biological augmentations in 2545, a year from which we have no information on the Spartan-III project, which makes confirmation difficult. However, this next quote should provide an adequate clarification all on its own regarding the "Class-II" Spartans, and speculation notwithstanding, it should serve well as my opening argument. If that portion of I Love Bees was considered canon (as it was said to be "embraced" as such, rather than an all-encompassing statement that the entire project was canonical), it would be safe to assume that she was indeed part of the Spartan-III project's Beta Company, as it is the most multilaterally compatible of plausible explanations ¹[overruling counterargument proves Yasmine was a subsequent wave of the Spartan-II program]:

Ghosts of Onyx, p. 62-63 - Kurt-051 and Colonel Ackerson
1950 HOURS, DECEMBER 14, 2531 (MILITARY CALENDAR) \
ABOARD UNSC POINT OF NO RETURN, LOCATION CLASSIFIED

. . .
"What is this new mission, sir?"

Ackerson stared at him a moment, then seemed to look through Kurt, past him. "I want you to train the next generation of Spartans."

Kurt blinked, taking in what Ackerson had just said, not quite understanding. "Sir, I was under the impression that Chief Petty Officer Mendez had been reassigned years ago to carry out that mission."

"The effort to train additional Spartan-IIs was postponed indefinitely by Dr. Catherine Halsey," Ackerson said. "There were other candidates within the gene pool, but they were out of synch with her age restriction protocols. And with the continuing war, her program funds were . . . diverted."

Kurt had always presumed other Spartans were being trained, that he and his fellows were the first in what would be a long line of Spartans. He'd never considered they might be the first, and the last, of their kind.

This very quote tells us that the Spartan-II's second wave of Spartans was postponed indefinitely back in 2525, as CPO Mendez never did fulfill his original reassignment given that very year, and that her funding was subsequently redacted for other military uses. Now, six years later, nothing has changed. Nonetheless, some have argued that the word "indefinitely" leaves the situation open-ended, providing Halsey with the chance of restarting the Spartan-II project sometime in between 2531 and 2552. It is true that it doesn't explicitly state here that the Project was canceled altogether, there are also two very important things to consider here:

Section Three was responsible for the Spartan programs. Orion, Spartan-II, and Spartan-III. With Halsey's consistent absence of progress, they turned to Colonel Ackerson to bring the next wave of Spartans instead. Only this time, with new health, training, and budgetary protocols, the project would henceforth be separated from Halsey's predecessor. The Spartan-III program began to graduate Spartans of mass numbers in relatively shorter amounts of time that were also far cheaper to produce and support (GoO, p.63). Their high-risk missions were considered incredibly successful ones (despite the towering number of Spartan deaths) and their production continued through 2552, with the last class having begun in the mid 2540s. Given that this new project became Section Three's focus, we are at least somewhat led to believe that all focus on the original, out-dated Spartan-II project would have dissipated completely.

The second thing that we must pay close attention to is something that I will address in the beginning of the third post in this thread.

[Edited on 06.09.2009 3:03 PM PDT]

  • 06.05.2009 2:08 PM PDT
Subject: Hypothesis: The Spartans in the Reach Teaser ARE "Class 1"...
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

I do not appreciate B.Net Group solicitation. If you ignore this and send me an invitation anyway, I will block communications with you.

Understanding the Spartan-II Project Selection Process
While we do not have a lengthy, explicitly-detailed account of how the Spartan-II's initial selection process began, we do have some important clues and indicators from the novel "The Fall of Reach" that can help point us in the right direction. It is explained that John, like the other 149 project candidates, has been chosen through a genetic screening procedure that has shown his genetic makeup to be vastly superior to that of your average human, essentially calling him "scientifically perfect":

"The Fall of Reach", p. 22 - Dr. Catherine Halsey, Jacob Keyes
1130 Hours, August 17. 2517 (Military Calendar) /
Eridanus Star System, Eridanus 2, Elysium City


With a tap of her finger, she accessed and scanned the file she had assembled of their subject.

Number 117 had all the genetic markers she had flagged in her original study--he was as close to a perfect subject for her purposes as science could determine. But Dr. Halsey knew it would take more than theoretical perfection to make this project work. People were more than the sum of their genes. There were environmental factors, mutations, learned ethics, and a hundreds other factors that could make this candidate unacceptable.

The latter part of this excerpt, however, shows that genetic screening is far from enough to determine whether a candidate is truly suitable for the project's intentions, which is precisely why Dr. Halsey and her chosen assistant, Jacob Keyes, traveled to Eridanus 2 in order to inspect John personally.

Now, couple this with this next excerpt from the very same page:

As she angled the pad toward the Lieutenant so he could see the boy, Dr. Halsey noticed that the picture was four months old. Didn't ONI realize how fast these children changed? Sloppy. She made a note to request updated pictures on a regular basis until phase three started.
This implies that there are at least three phases to the conscription process, of which it seems Halsey is already in the second: Candidacy Confirmation. While I suppose it could also fit into phase two, "phase one" could plausibly involve candidacy selection via the genetic screening mentioned above, though which phase this procedure actually resides doesn't matter whatsoever.

Given the above stated reluctance shown by Dr. Halsey, it is clear that she understands the potential possibility of coming across candidates that might not be suitable for the program, which would beg the assumption that she would also keep such a possibility in mind during the genetic screening process itself.

To use a rather over-used analogy: It is unwise to put all of your eggs in one basket. That is why, even in modern times, we don't. To use a real-life example: modern day medical trials and studies over-accommodate beyond their intended number of patients during the initial patient selection process, but after personal inspection, they are able to further dwindle that number. I experienced this first-hand when I was approached by my optometrist to participate in an experimental procedure study that would store antibiotics under the flesh of my cornea for an entire year, eliminating the need for manual insertion of medical eye drops altogether. Medically, I fit the bill for the study. However, when they spoke to me, not only was I informed that they filled their roster, but I had become ineligible due to being slightly less appropriate for the trial than other candidates, because they found certain information potentially risky that one would normally consider inconsequential to something of medical nature.

In the end, this is a science fiction game and not real life, but logic very obviously transfers over into the fictional world, especially in Bungie's expansive and intricately-woven universe, and so it seems like this sort of procedural pre-planning would be a given to any scientist.

It is because of this that I have come to the conclusion that phase one of the Spartan-II project included an intel-gathering process that most likely pooled a large number of potential child candidates together based on certain genetic markers. Once their initial 150 were chosen from this larger pool, they found that their financial backing would only allow for half that number, cutting it down even further to 75, based on even more strict standards, this time via personal inspection:

"The Fall of Reach", p. 16 - Dr. Catherine Halsey, Jacob Keyes
0430 Hours, August 17, 2517 (Military Calendar) /
Slipstream space -- unknown coordinates near Eridanus
Star System


"Yes, Lieutenant? You have a question?"

He composed himself and pulled his uniform jacket taut.

"I was curious about our mission, ma'am. I assume we are to reconnoiter something in this system, but why send a shuttle, rather than a prowler or a corvette? And why just the two of us?"

She blinked and smiled. "A fairly accurate assumption and analysis, Lieutenant. This is a reconnaissance mission . . . of sorts. We are here to observe a child. The first of many, I hope."


[Edited on 06.05.2009 2:10 PM PDT]

  • 06.05.2009 2:09 PM PDT
Subject: The Spartans in the Reach Teaser ARE "Class 1" Spartan-IIs
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

I do not appreciate B.Net Group solicitation. If you ignore this and send me an invitation anyway, I will block communications with you.

Understanding the Progression/Regression of Dr. Halsey's Motives
In a forum response to the quote involving the revelation that Dr. Halsey's second S-II class was postponed, someone purported that Halsey could have likely restarted the project between the given years (2531 and 2552). While that certainly is true, as we have absolutely no history on what Halsey was doing in that time, there is a very large and important plot device used consistently in Halsey's character, from the very beginning of TFoR, to the very end of GoO, which gives us a very strong impression of Halsey not wanting to continue the Spartan project whatsoever.

It all began with a simple slip-up:

"The Fall of Reach, p. 26 - Dr. Catherine Halsey, John
1130 Hours, August 17, 2517 (Military Calendar) /
Eridanus Star System, Eridanus 2, Elysium City


"Yes, you can keep it, John." She smiled at him--then stopped.

She shouldn't have used his name. That was a bad sign. She couldn't afford the luxury of liking her test subjects. She mentally stepped away from her feelings. She had to maintain a professional distance. She had to . . . because in a few months Number 117 might not be alive.


From the very get-go, before even getting to know the boy, it is apparent that Halsey's emotions and morals are clashing with her desire to remain professional and distanced from the Spartans. It makes sense that she'd be much more susceptible to her feelings than others, as technically Dr. Halsey was a civilian, and was never actually conscripted into any branch of the UNSC as military personnel.

Quite soonafter, we are shown that Halsey quickly lost the battle with her emotions to attempt to separate her feelings, as she continuously refers to John-117 by his first name, despite her self-correction back when they first met (TFoR, p. 54).

Years later, her continuously growing attachment, as well as her skepticism and slowly-changing opinion of the Spartan-II project began to become more noticeable:

"The Fall of Reach", p. 58 - Dr. Catherine Halsey, AI Construct "Déjà"
1130 Hours, March 09, 2525 (Military Calendar) /
Epsilon Eridani System, Office of Naval Intelligence
Medical Facility, in orbit around planet Reach


Halsey sighed, "I have doubts, Déjà. I thought the reasons so compelling when we first started project SPARTAN. Now? I . . . I just don't know."


The above quote is spoken after Dr. Halsey reads a file about the mortality rate of the bioaugmentations that she had planned for her Spartans.

As we progress through TFoR, First Strike, and Ghosts of Onyx, this plot device becomes ever more prevalent with Halsey's character. Here are some small quotes from the novels to better illustrate this point:

-"Tomorrow we see if all the pain they've been through has been worth it" (TFoR, p. 74).
--------------------------------------------------------------------
-Why was she hesitating? The match was superb. But was Cortana's predilection for Spartan 117 a result of him being Dr. Halsey's favorite? And did it matter? Who better to protect him? (TFoR, p. 237).
--------------------------------------------------------------------
-Dr. Halsey studied the five Spartans in the hallway and pushed her antique glasses farther up the ridge of her nose. Despite everything their presence here meant--Reach invaded, their mission to find the Covenant leadership compromised, everything she had worked for now in jeopardy--she was still pleased to see them. She steeled herself, though; an emotional outburst wouldn't be understood, or appreciated, by her Spartans (First Strike, p. 120).
--------------------------------------------------------------------
-Dr. Halsey was only a civilian, but the Spartans had always accepted her authority. Perhaps it was because she had acted as an equal among the Fleet Admirals and Generals who were constantly trying to co-opt her work. Or maybe it was more than that. She wondered if the Spartans viewed her as some sort of mother figure. As much as this notion amused her, she doubted that they viewed anyone outside their team as family. Not even her (First Strike, p. 123).
--------------------------------------------------------------------
-"I understand," Kelly rasped.

Dr. Halsey wondered if she did --if Kelly understood that getting shot and burned and having your internal organs traumatized wasn't supposed to happen to you every day . . . unless you were a Spartan. She wished the war were over. She wished her Spartans had some measure of peace (First Strike, p. 125).
--------------------------------------------------------------------
-Two meters tall and a half a ton of metal and somehow Dr. Halsey couldn't help thinking of him occasionally as the same little boy she had stolen from his parents in Elysium City. No. John had changed. She hadn't. She was the one who still carried the three-decade-old festering guilt (Firs Strike, p. 243).
--------------------------------------------------------------------
-"For a long time I had thought that we had to sacrifice a few for the good of the entire human race." She took a deep breath and let it go with a heavy sigh. "I have killed and maimed and caused a great deal of suffering to many people--all in the name of self-preservation." Her steely blue gaze found him. "But now I'm not sure that philosophy has worked out too well. I should have been trying to save every single human life--no matter what it cost" (First Strike, p. 245).
--------------------------------------------------------------------
-"One last lesson. I'm trying to teach you something it's taken me all my life to realize." She cleared her throat of the lump thickening there. "I'm giving you the chance to make the decision that I thought I couldn't make."
--------------------------------------------------------------------
-Dr. Halsey watched until he rounded the corridor and was gone. She hoped she saw John again before she did what she had to do, but she might not. Would the thought she had planted within him take hold? The gesture might be the only thing she could do to atone for what she'd done to him and the other Spartans (First Strike, p. 246).
--------------------------------------------------------------------
-There was so much to do and so little time left for her, the Spartans, and the human race. She could do something, though. She'd save them one person at a time, starting with Linda, then Kelly, and then a handful of very important others. Of course, it meant betraying everyone who trusted her--but if that was the only way Dr. Halsey could save herself, and her soul, then she'd do it (First Strike, p. 249).


All of this is finally capitalized upon when Dr. Halsey kidnaps Kelly and travels to Onyx in an attempt to find the Spartan-IIIs, hoping that it isn't too late to save them from their cold, machine-like, designed fate; to "save" them, biologically-enhanced, effectively "produced" supersoldiers, most of whom, this time, had willingly enlisted as orphans:

-Only a few more things to take care of before she could go--before she started something she couldn't stop (First Strike, p. 272).
--------------------------------------------------------------------
-"I'm sorry, you would have never come on your own." she said. "Spartans are attracted to suicide missions like moths to flames. But this is much more important than any military solution" (GoO, p. 146).
--------------------------------------------------------------------
-She looked back at Kelly's unconscious form. Dr. Halsey couldn't save her Spartans, they were already indoctrinated and on the front lines . . . but she might be able to do something about these new, as yet theoretical, Spartan-IIIs (GoO, p. 150).
--------------------------------------------------------------------
-So it was up to her to take the only logical action: run.

John and the other Spartans would never turn away from a fight, but she might be ale to convince these other Spartans, trick them if necessary, into survive. They were humanity's last chance to endure the coming darkness.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"You see," Dr. Halsey said, "my SPARTAN-IIs would never leave a fight. They are too indoctrinated to know any other way. But when I learned of the possibility of a new generation of Spartans, I realized ther ewas a chance to lure them away. Perhaps place them in cry and fly as fast and as far away as I could from this sector of the galaxy."

"To live and fight another day," Kurt murmured (GoO, p. 342).

As we all know, those that didn't die, including Halsey, Blue Team, and a few IIIs are now within the Onyx's Shield World, which is encased within a slipspace bubble of compressed dimensionality. It is yet to be seen whether Halsey's efforts will be successful, but her motives should be very clear. It is incredibly likely that Dr. Catherine Halsey never reinstated her original Spartan-II program, making the existence of Class-II Spartans incredibly unlikely.

[Edited on 06.08.2009 10:09 AM PDT]

  • 06.05.2009 2:09 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

I do not appreciate B.Net Group solicitation. If you ignore this and send me an invitation anyway, I will block communications with you.

In Conclusion

It is by these pieces of anecdotal as well as canonically-set evidence that I am able to make the following deductions:

:::A Class-II wave of Spartan-II supersoldiers has never been confirmed to have commenced, and further, is highly contradicted by the Spartan-III program's more ethical and effective practices, as well as by Dr. Halsey's continual detachment from the nature of her original intentions within the Spartan-II project.

:::Dr. Halsey did not want to create a new wave of Spartan-II supersoldiers.

:::It is highly plausible that the original pool of subjects from which Dr. Halsey chose her candidates was a number much larger than only 150, enabling the possibility (and plausibility) of there being Class-I Spartan-IIs with a callsign above "150"; namely the two Spartans -259 and -320 that we meet in the Reach Teaser.

:::It is unlikely that the Spartans from the Reach Teaser are Spartan-IIIs, as the remaining Gamma Spartan-IIIs are all around thirteen to fourteen years of age, and were only recently progressing through their artificially-induced hastening of puberty. It is possible, but it is highly unlikely when compared to the plausibility of them being Spartan-IIs.

:::Yasmine Zaman, if ever truly confirmed as canon, was most likely a Spartan-III candidate, rather than a Spartan-II, as her conscription year, as far as we know, only correlates to the same year that the Spartan-III Project conscripted its second batch of Spartans for Beta Company.

In the end, I concede that Bungie can in effect do whatever they like (though now under Microsoft's close watch) with the story, and retcon details to the canon of the games that go against the novels. Hell, Lord knows there's inconsistencies already, though most tend to deal with minute differences between characters' abilities and traits, which is unfortunately a necessary change for the gameplay experience as well as storyline sensibility in the games themselves.

The difference, in my opinion, however, is that Bungie has never actively stepped on their own canonical content from the novels with the games. A player could pick up the novels, read through them, and they would, for the most part, seemlessly come together in lieu with the storyline of the games. I sincerely doubt that Bungie would retcon a side-story into one of the most significant instances in Halo lore that us more in-depth fans have been waiting for over the course of the Halo franchise's existence. I have faith that we will see our Blue Team or our Red Team, and, yeah, we might be introduced to some new characters as well, but characters that fit canonically alongside that which we've come to know through the finer details of the novels.

Nonetheless, as this idea is neither directly, 100% confirmed or denied by Halo lore, I do not assert this to be factual, and as such, is a hypothesis, rather than a theory. However, I urge you to consider the many pieces of evidence I have presented that do lean in its favor, as this is a much more plausible explanation than a Class-II wave of Spartans. Additionally, irregardless to the factuality of the previously stated thesis, the idea that there was likely a far larger pool of child subjects from which Dr. Halsey chose her initial 150 candidates is still also very plausible.

If you've made it this far, congratulations to you. I hope that, at the very least, you've enjoyed the read. Personally, I find it somewhat ridiculous that I had to even create this thread for people to take notice of details that seemed so bold to me when I read through the novels, but then I suppose we all interpret literature (where applicable) in our own ways.

As such, I also acknowledge that regardless of "plausibility" (I use that word often in this thread), that I, like any other person with an opinion, speculation, or other non-factual contribution to this issue, can most certainly be wrong.

Thanks for read and contributing!

Points from the Opposition

As this should be a collaborative effort to gather what information we have in order to either prove or disprove this hypothesis, I am providing an Opposition section here, which will house all credible counter-arguments and factual evidence that do so. Each oppositional point will be preceded in the beginning of its quote by a superscript number. In the case below, the superscript is ¹
¹ Posted by: xBl00dxKn1ghtx
Happy birthday to me, happy birthday to Lab day, honey. But can't I have a slice
of Later. This will just take a few minutes.

Short walk through the
Labyrinth. Click clack of bootsteps in the corridors.
Into lab 7. Wait. Tongue depressors, swabsticks,
monitors. Wait. Happy birthday to me, happy birthday to Footsteps in the hall
Middle-aged, female; stride length and time suggest height approx. 1.7m.
Halsey
Door swings open. It's her. Coffee stains on labcoat. She gives me the queenly smile. Calls me
by name not number. Why not? She took my name away.
She owns it now, can use it if she likes. Tactical option reflex: unarmed;
swabstick through the eye; monitor wire
garrote. Linger there.
She tells me to get in the chair. I don't kill her.
She straps me down.
Fluorescent lights. Smell of formaldehyde. Still
feel the new implants, itchy little bumps along my spine.
Eggs waiting
to hatch. Gross. Try not to think about it.
More footsteps. Door opens and nurse comes in, steel tray rattling with
needles and scalpels and little evil scissors with hooked blades.
Halsey picks up a needle. Tests the plunger. Something yellow sprays out. Venom colored.
Don't worry, she says. The queenly smile. This will hardly hurt a bit.


[Edited on 06.09.2009 2:55 PM PDT]

  • 06.05.2009 2:10 PM PDT
Subject: Hypothesis: The Spartans in the Reach Teaser ARE "Class 1"...

Forever there shall be war, thus forever we shall fight...

Although I must say that the above thesis is expertly written and quite detailed, it is, generally worthless. While you provided large amounts of evidence to back up the fact that Halsey wanted no part in further SPARTAN training, this completely falls flat, as ONI, Fleetcom or any such branch of the UEG could have been responsible for the second class of SIIs, just as Ambrose created the SPARTAN IIIs.

You brought up the possibility that one of the seven unnamed SPARTANs, or conversly, one of the other unnumbered SPARTANs could possibly be Sierra 320 or 259, this is possible, but the numbers game would be far too stretched. Since we don't know the numbers of fourteen SPARTANs that means that twenty one SPARTANS all fall within the 001-150 range, this makes it highly unlikely that the seven unknown SPARTANS whose fate is also unclear are highly unlikely to fall outside of this range, especially to numbers as high as 320 or 259. It is also to be noted that it would have been unlikely for Halsey to have ever considered children who did not completely conform to her specifications, making it unlikely that she included any numbers outside of the 150 candidates as there were only 150 candidates that ever would have been acceptable for her. The seventy-five who were not inducted were most likely overlooked due to some unseen genetic mutation or observed behaviour not seen in any data before inspection.

Anyways, that's just my two cents.

  • 06.05.2009 2:41 PM PDT
Subject: Hypothesis: The Spartans in the Reach Teaser ARE "Class 1"...

After I read the novels it was clear to me that Hasley had changed. She seemed to see herself as their mother/guide rather than a heartless scientist. Which makes me agree with you that it is unlikely that she created a 2nd Class of Spartan II, but someone else may have continued her work on the program. However I think it is unlikely due to Ackersons work on the Spartan III program. But I don't know if Bungie would purposely leave out a 2nd Class because this could hinder future stories for games because most of the Spartans are accounted for or dead.

  • 06.05.2009 3:00 PM PDT
Subject: The Spartans in the Reach Teaser ARE "Class 1" Spartan-IIs
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

I do not appreciate B.Net Group solicitation. If you ignore this and send me an invitation anyway, I will block communications with you.

Posted by: Jsten419
Although I must say that the above thesis is expertly written and quite detailed, it is, generally worthless. While you provided large amounts of evidence to back up the fact that Halsey wanted no part in further SPARTAN training, this completely falls flat, as ONI, Fleetcom or any such branch of the UEG could have been responsible for the second class of SIIs, just as Ambrose created the SPARTAN IIIs.

This would be the unfortunate work of retconning, but we have no information or reasoning to believe that such a thing has ever occurred, and in fact, as I said, the Spartan-III project's existence in and of itself helps play down the possibility of a Class-II, given that, as I've provided, it has no further mention other than the small comment by Ackerson. If we simply dealt entirely with hypotheticals, then every speculative theory would instantly be wrong. Since what you purport is hypothetical, I'll simply response with a hypothetical, "They didn't."

You brought up the possibility that one of the seven unnamed SPARTANs, or conversly, one of the other unnumbered SPARTANs could possibly be Sierra 320 or 259, this is possible, but the numbers game would be far too stretched. Since we don't know the numbers of fourteen SPARTANs that means that twenty one SPARTANS all fall within the 001-150 range, this makes it highly unlikely that the seven unknown SPARTANS whose fate is also unclear are highly unlikely to fall outside of this range, especially to numbers as high as 320 or 259.
If it were only these two Spartans whose callsign numbers we did not know, then I might agree. However, as you mentioned, there is still a handful that we do not know, and as such the possibility does not come in range of defying and general rules of probability (not that it would either way).

It is also to be noted that it would have been unlikely for Halsey to have ever considered children who did not completely conform to her specifications, making it unlikely that she included any numbers outside of the 150 candidates as there were only 150 candidates that ever would have been acceptable for her.
Why do you say that? It makes complete sense that she would number her refined subjects for closer inspection. I'm sure they did a bit more research than simply a general genetics test, especially when it was even expressed that during these times of civil war, certain families would not even willingly disclose said information. Halsey knew straightaway that it was much more complicated than that. It could have began with the genetic screening, or it could have wound up ending off with the genetic screening, but in either case, the possibility of a larger pool of candidates is not hurt by this.

The seventy-five who were not inducted were most likely overlooked due to some unseen genetic mutation or observed behaviour not seen in any data before inspection.

Anyways, that's just my two cents.

And I respect and acknowledge it. Clearly, not everyone will agree with my deductions, and that is important and necessary if we are ever to make progress at all. Thanks for taking the time to read and respond.

[Edited on 06.05.2009 4:52 PM PDT]

  • 06.05.2009 4:52 PM PDT

Yeah Winter.. it's coming.

I love The Flood. It's my go to place for relaxation. If anyone needs me, then I'll be there.

Unfortunatly, but yet expected, nothing can be said for certain. Knowing the path that Bungie normally takes.

I do agree with your, rather detailed, opinion. Although thats all it is. An opinion, and a damn good one at that.



Well, at least we know there are a few among us who have a good knowledge of it. Sadly, there is but few.

It's just dissapointing to say that won't even have the chance to experience the first of the Halo: ODST, and Halo: Reach, for the war here in Iraq and Afghanistan have called to my services.
I do hope that there is more to come. But I already know the answer to that.

-Cpt. Rivera, U.S. Army

  • 06.05.2009 5:08 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Is it just a coincidence that the majority of the spartan IIs we know the most about have a number under 150?

EDIT: I really appreciate your effort to make your points. I enjoyed reading your posts. I feel like reading and playing through the whole story in order (again...). I suppose I'll start with TFoR.

[Edited on 06.05.2009 5:32 PM PDT]

  • 06.05.2009 5:28 PM PDT

To be perfectly honest, I think there gonna pull a Nassau Station. You see, Nassau was a MAC Platform that was a level in DoA4, which is what 458 (class II Spartan) was in. In Uprising #4, the Nassau station is the one that fires the shot and destroyed the Harbinger of Piety, killing the Minister of Inquisition and Ruwan Ackerson. Not that your theory is incorrect, its just a feeling I have.

  • 06.05.2009 5:54 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Posted by: Chilombiano
Unfortunatly, but yet expected, nothing can be said for certain. Knowing the path that Bungie normally takes.

I do agree with your, rather detailed, opinion. Although thats all it is. An opinion, and a damn good one at that.



Well, at least we know there are a few among us who have a good knowledge of it. Sadly, there is but few.

It's just dissapointing to say that won't even have the chance to experience the first of the Halo: ODST, and Halo: Reach, for the war here in Iraq and Afghanistan have called to my services.
I do hope that there is more to come. But I already know the answer to that.

-Cpt. Rivera, U.S. Army


good luck over there

  • 06.05.2009 6:11 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

I do not appreciate B.Net Group solicitation. If you ignore this and send me an invitation anyway, I will block communications with you.

Posted by: Chilombiano
I do agree with your, rather detailed, opinion. Although thats all it is. An opinion, and a damn good one at that.

I may have come off as if I were asserting my hypothesis to be anything more than that, and so I've gone through and edited any word usage I thought might lead people to believe that, as I most certainly acknowledge that this is just another speculation that could easily be wrong at a whim. Just drawing some lines that I think go together well, given what we have to work with at the moment.

Just watch these two Spartans be non-canonical teaser devices, though, and the whole discussion goes down the drain.

Posted by: Mahcks
Is it just a coincidence that the majority of the spartan IIs we know the most about have a number under 150?

I won't lie about my opinion on this. This is something that does strike me, but, honestly, I don't feel that it rules it out as we do still have a handful of unnamed Spartans-IIs leftover.

Again, thanks to everyone who took the time to read and respond. And also, I wish you the best, Chilombiano.

  • 06.06.2009 4:08 AM PDT

unfortunately, i dont know anything about first or second class spartans besides the Spartan 1s IIs and IIIs nor the attention span to read all u have put. But the spartans in reach are spartan IIs. After the battle the unsc descided 2 make spartan IIIs, cheaper and crappier spartans. They were really bad and werent used much at all from what i gather. but judging by the large amounts of text in this forum uve probably already established this and certainly know about it rendering my post useless. :(

  • 06.06.2009 4:24 AM PDT

but sierra is nato phonetic for S and S is for Spartan. just like a is for apple. Master Chief is Sierra 117 - Spartan 117

  • 06.06.2009 4:26 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

I do not appreciate B.Net Group solicitation. If you ignore this and send me an invitation anyway, I will block communications with you.

Posted by: roraj 196
unfortunately, i dont know anything about first or second class spartans besides the Spartan 1s IIs and IIIs nor the attention span to read all u have put. But the spartans in reach are spartan IIs. After the battle the unsc descided 2 make spartan IIIs, cheaper and crappier spartans. They were really bad and werent used much at all from what i gather. but judging by the large amounts of text in this forum uve probably already established this and certainly know about it rendering my post useless. :(

The Spartan-IIIs were used in large quantities, actually. They received the same training and same augmentations as the Spartan-IIs received, and the only noted difference is their significantly lesser-tiered armor, and battle experience. It appears that the upper echelon responsible for Spartan-III expected the IIIs to die doing their missions, as they were tasks with huge mortality rates. The entire first wave of Spartan-IIIs, Alpha Company, died completing their mission, were deemed a success, and the second wave, Beta Company, was expedited to commence. Once again, Beta Company was nearly entirely wiped out, with only two known survivors, Tom and Lucy, who play a decently sizable role in Ghosts of Onyx. The last wave, the Gamma Company Spartan-IIIs, consisted of 330 new Spartan-IIIs, some of which were involved with the initial incidents on Onyx, but most of which were deployed after the first Battle of Reach.

I would hardly call them crappier Spartans. They were no where near "bad" and were definitely used quite a bit.

  • 06.06.2009 2:04 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Elder Mythic Member

I hate you so much...

But not as much as I hate the internet.

You've summed up the pieces of knowledge i've been dropping in random forums the last week, OP. I'm backing you 100% on your theories as they are the closest things that make any sense in these forums, lately. lol.

  • 06.06.2009 2:20 PM PDT

Posted by: Chilombiano
Unfortunatly, but yet expected, nothing can be said for certain. Knowing the path that Bungie normally takes.

I do agree with your, rather detailed, opinion. Although thats all it is. An opinion, and a damn good one at that.



Well, at least we know there are a few among us who have a good knowledge of it. Sadly, there is but few.

It's just dissapointing to say that won't even have the chance to experience the first of the Halo: ODST, and Halo: Reach, for the war here in Iraq and Afghanistan have called to my services.
I do hope that there is more to come. But I already know the answer to that.

-Cpt. Rivera, U.S. Army


godbless soldier

  • 06.06.2009 2:35 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

I do not appreciate B.Net Group solicitation. If you ignore this and send me an invitation anyway, I will block communications with you.

I was hoping for a bit more input. I guess I can't ask for much considering how long it is.

  • 06.07.2009 5:55 PM PDT

Cave Johnson here, we're done!

PS: If you are reading this comment while imagining my voice, don't panic. That's just a side effect of the testing.

Posted by: Dream053
I was hoping for a bit more input. I guess I can't ask for much considering how long it is.


It's not really long at all.

Although I would love to discuss this in more ways, there is just to little evidence to prove the opposing side of your hypothesis.

All I really can say is that when there is a hole in the Halo universe, someone gets a compelling urge to fill it. When Nylund had set the ground level, holes were made and the following books came to fill them. First Strike, Ghosts of Onyx, Contact Harvest, and Cole Protocol.

The point I want to bring across is that we are still unsure of what really happened to Class 2 spartans. We don't know how many there really are, (we can guess at how many were recruited) but it's still a hole that needs to be filled.

So Novel-1 (AKA Bruce Spartan 259) is simply getting a spot in the sun. He was supposed to be the deuteragonist next to the chief in halo 2. He was pulled out apparently and it seems is being brought to the new game.

That is really all I can bring to this discussion, but there are many others who also share our interest in the halo universe. You have built it, and they will come.

  • 06.07.2009 6:56 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

I do not appreciate B.Net Group solicitation. If you ignore this and send me an invitation anyway, I will block communications with you.

Posted by: tinyohyeah
The point I want to bring across is that we are still unsure of what really happened to Class 2 spartans. We don't know how many there really are, (we can guess at how many were recruited) but it's still a hole that needs to be filled.

I thought I'd illustrated that point in my opening and closing statements pretty well, but perhaps not. I've never completely turned this possibility away. I just wanted to bring forth that it is very possible that Class-II never even came to fruition at all. There is no proof in either direction, no, but if there was, this wouldn't be a speculative hypothesis anymore, it'd be either right or wrong, and for the time being, I'd say that there is a wealth of evidence in the favor of Class-II never occurring.

As always, I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

EDIT: I hate Bruce.

[Edited on 06.07.2009 7:25 PM PDT]

  • 06.07.2009 7:23 PM PDT

Just wanted to throw in a thought that you may have mentioned and that I missed, but near the beginning of your article you mention that the Doc possible had 150 candidates during phase 2 of her selection process; I can't remember whether it was that the candidate list went from 1-150 or that there were 150 left in the list. If so could it be possible that there were 500 candidates or whatever number and that only 150 of them made it to phase 2 of the slection process.

This was meant to try and help prove your thoughts, which were in great detail and i might have even just repeated them just now and if I did let it be known that it is my bad. :P

In the end I know Bungie will deliver another entertaining game, I just hope that they don't invent to much that it will completely undermine the novels. I also hope that they change the multi-player a bit not that I don't enjoy halo 3 it's just i think a change might be needed, possibly a Gears of War type cover system but obviously with its own Bungie twist. Anyway that's it for me thx for reading.

Very good information btw.

  • 06.07.2009 8:09 PM PDT

While I still cannot be certain who sierra 320 or 259 are, I do agree that it is very likely that no class 2 spartan-II's ever came into existence. The fact the the S-III program was put into effect makes me believe this, as it was run by Col. Ackerson, the person who served as the main opposition to the Spartan-II program.

The funding for various projects is most likely spread incredibly thin, so it is not unreasonable to assume that only one project can be funded. Concidering also that it is hinted at that Ackersons other projects had "failed" where the spartans succeeded. The S-II program was already isanely expensive, as well as project MJOLNIR, I think its safe to assume funds were instead diverted to the S-III program along with the development of SPI armor as well as funding to making more warships which were becoming increasingly rare. I believe it was said somewhere in the novels that a suit of MJOLNIR armor cost as much as a frigate or cruiser. Plus It was said the the S-III have been a success, being able to field hundreds of super soldiers rather than just a handfull, easier to train, easier to fund, why would they even look back at Spartan-II?

With the number of known spartan-II's active at this point, both programs(s-II and MJOLNIR) have probably been on "indefinite hold". Hell, as of Halo 3, the S-III program might be on hold as well, with Ackerson and Kurt dead.

[Edited on 06.07.2009 9:35 PM PDT]

  • 06.07.2009 9:27 PM PDT

I agree 100% with you. While these seems to rule out Spartan II Class II's as the mystery Spartans, it still begs the question of who they are.

  • 06.07.2009 10:35 PM PDT

But since I am human, I am good and bad as well. But I try my hardest to stay good. And some of the things I do and say may be bad. Or just not too good, but I do try.

So with that said I dont fault you. I mean your only human, good or bad. But I also dont respect you, and I dont care if thats good or bad haha.

-blam!- if you understand me.
I love being misunderstood.

Yasmine Zaman cannot be a S-III because in "the princess monolouge" part of ilovebees, in 1 of the flashbacks she sees Dr.Halsey before her augumentation begins. As you have stated Dr.Halsey had nothing to do with S-IIIs until she went to Onyx.

see this link look at the Halsey part http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Princess_Monologue
i know its a wiki but u could find it on ilovebees 2 but itd prolly be harder to find

  • 06.07.2009 11:13 PM PDT

  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • of 3