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Subject: The Spartans in the Reach Teaser ARE "Class 1" Spartan-IIs

But since I am human, I am good and bad as well. But I try my hardest to stay good. And some of the things I do and say may be bad. Or just not too good, but I do try.

So with that said I dont fault you. I mean your only human, good or bad. But I also dont respect you, and I dont care if thats good or bad haha.

-blam!- if you understand me.
I love being misunderstood.

Im not agreeing with this but i think its interesting i found it on another post it says sumthin bout that when spartans say their name they say their spartan (2 or 3) and their number (ex:117) so john would say spartan/sierra 2, 117. this person said that if u use this theory that the "sierra 259" could actualy be saying spartan(sierra) 2, 59. spartan 59 is malcolm who got killed when the spartans had 2 jump out of the pelican when they were landing on reach.

  • 06.07.2009 11:21 PM PDT

Except why wouldn't the Master Chief do this?

In Halo 2 at the very end he identifies himself as "Spartan one one seven"

in Halo 3 he is referred to as "Sierra one one seven"

  • 06.07.2009 11:25 PM PDT

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Dude great work, a lot of effort went in to this.

We just can't be for certain we shall just have to wait.

  • 06.07.2009 11:27 PM PDT
Subject: Hypothesis: The Spartans in the Reach Teaser ARE "Class 1"...

Back in action

i gotta agree with you

  • 06.07.2009 11:38 PM PDT
Subject: The Spartans in the Reach Teaser ARE "Class 1" Spartan-IIs

you have a great theory/opinion, and i agree with it. wasn't there close to 500 candidates for the program?

  • 06.07.2009 11:42 PM PDT
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*Slow Clap*

You make the most sense out of any of the other theories out there.

  • 06.07.2009 11:57 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

First I want to say thanks for the support in my own theory thread.

Second, this is a damn well made post, as in my thread, I don't think these are spartans, I know for a fact there is no such thing as a "Spartan II class 2", Other marines can have the call sign "Sierra". I agree with everything you've said.

  • 06.07.2009 11:58 PM PDT
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Posted by: Riddle oXo
Just wanted to throw in a thought that you may have mentioned and that I missed, but near the beginning of your article you mention that the Doc possible had 150 candidates during phase 2 of her selection process; I can't remember whether it was that the candidate list went from 1-150 or that there were 150 left in the list. If so could it be possible that there were 500 candidates or whatever number and that only 150 of them made it to phase 2 of the slection process.

Yeah, I actually elaborate upon this very point in detail throughout the thread. You hit the nail on the head as far as my view of this topic goes.

Posted by: xBl00dxKn1ghtx
Im not agreeing with this but i think its interesting i found it on another post it says sumthin bout that when spartans say their name they say their spartan (2 or 3) and their number (ex:117) so john would say spartan/sierra 2, 117. this person said that if u use this theory that the "sierra 259" could actualy be saying spartan(sierra) 2, 59. spartan 59 is malcolm who got killed when the spartans had 2 jump out of the pelican when they were landing on reach.

I kindly requested in the beginning of my thread not to bring this up here. In my opinion, that theory is incredibly silly, as no Spartan has ever designated their "Class" when identifying themselves with their callsign. Plus, that would force Spartan-320 to be a Class-III.

Either way, let's keep that "theory" in its own thread, rather than here.

Posted by: xBl00dxKn1ghtx
Yasmine Zaman cannot be a S-III because in "the princess monolouge" part of ilovebees, in 1 of the flashbacks she sees Dr.Halsey before her augumentation begins. As you have stated Dr.Halsey had nothing to do with S-IIIs until she went to Onyx.

see this link look at the Halsey part http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Princess_Monologue
i know its a wiki but u could find it on ilovebees 2 but itd prolly be harder to find

I know the quote you are referring to, but a "lady doctor in a white coat" does not instantly correlate to Dr. Halsey. The doctors/scientists who did the Spartan-III augmentations were never described in the novel, and so, one of them could easily have been female, and imagine that, be wearing medical garments, which often happen to be white coats.

[Edited on 06.08.2009 7:10 AM PDT]

  • 06.08.2009 7:02 AM PDT

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The SPARTAN-II program was scrapped after the first group. How do we know this? Simple, Arkenson wouldn't have asked for a SPARTAN-III program if their where more than one set of IIs.

  • 06.08.2009 7:04 AM PDT

@ Dreamer

So are you saying that phase one of the recruitment process of the S II project could have had say 500 candidates but only 150 made it to phase 2 then 75 to phase 3 and only thirty or so of those actually became Spartans. Meaning they could have spartan 459, 762 or any number because it all depends on how large the recruitment list for phase one was.

If this is so then i would have to say that seems very logical.

  • 06.08.2009 7:25 AM PDT
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Posted by: Riddle oXo
@ Dreamer

So are you saying that phase one of the recruitment process of the S II project could have had say 500 candidates but only 150 made it to phase 2 then 75 to phase 3 and only thirty or so of those actually became Spartans. Meaning they could have spartan 459, 762 or any number because it all depends on how large the recruitment list for phase one was.

If this is so then i would have to say that seems very logical.

Keep in mind that the phases are never explicitly explained in the novel; only that there are at least three. Given that Halsey is concerned with cutting down 150 to 75 before phase three would tell us that they are currently in phase two, which is clearly when they are confirming candidates for the final conscription process, which I'm assuming, is part of phase three. Just making sure we don't start asserting any of this as factual.

Anyway, while it's impossible to discern just how many original candidates there may have been if this hypothesis were true, that is exactly what I'm saying.

[Edited on 06.08.2009 7:48 AM PDT]

  • 06.08.2009 7:31 AM PDT

Honestly i hope this is what Bungie does because its the only way i can see spartan 320 and 259 existing without completely contradicting the story in the novels.

  • 06.08.2009 7:43 AM PDT

But since I am human, I am good and bad as well. But I try my hardest to stay good. And some of the things I do and say may be bad. Or just not too good, but I do try.

So with that said I dont fault you. I mean your only human, good or bad. But I also dont respect you, and I dont care if thats good or bad haha.

-blam!- if you understand me.
I love being misunderstood.

yasmine zaman wasnt a S-III cuz on her augementation day she saw dr.halsey who wasnt with the S-IIIs then. this is in one of the princess monolouge flashbacks

  • 06.08.2009 9:30 AM PDT
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Posted by: xBl00dxKn1ghtx
yasmine zaman wasnt a S-III cuz on her augementation day she saw dr.halsey who wasnt with the S-IIIs then. this is in one of the princess monolouge flashbacks

You already mentioned this, and I already answered you. To reiterate my response:

A "lady doctor in a white coat" does not instantly correlate with Dr. Halsey's character. She isn't the only female doctor in the world, and god forbid other doctors wear white coats...

[Edited on 06.13.2009 5:31 PM PDT]

  • 06.08.2009 9:53 AM PDT

Like you said, "lady doctor in a white coat" does not mean it must be Halsey, however I would believe that is what Bungie meant for us to infer, but who knows?

  • 06.08.2009 10:03 AM PDT
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Posted by: nV RavishWolf
Like you said, "lady doctor in a white coat" does not mean it must be Halsey, however I would believe that is what Bungie meant for us to infer, but who knows?

Bungie had no play in the storyline that I Love Bees took. They helped 42 Entertainment establish the universe and setting up to Halo 2, but they let them go from there, which is why there are conflicting reports on whether or not I Love Bees is considered canonical (Frankie said yes, Staten said no).

So Bungie definitely didn't infer anything. 42 Entertainment may have, but there is nothing beyond that vague descriptor that points us in any direction. As I said, given the context, it is much more likely that she, like Jan James (well, she was a failed conscription since her father killed the handlers), was conscripted to S-III.

  • 06.08.2009 10:08 AM PDT

Is Nicole, Spartan-458, considered canonical, because she was described as being a part of a second group of Spartan II's. This would seem to prove the existence of a second class of Spartan II's if it is canon.

  • 06.09.2009 12:44 AM PDT

Posted by: nV RavishWolf
Is Nicole, Spartan-458, considered canonical, because she was described as being a part of a second group of Spartan II's. This would seem to prove the existence of a second class of Spartan II's if it is canon.


No, Nicole is not canon.. And for that matter, niether is any of the ilovebees stuff. All of the references to Spartan II's from a "class 2" are non canon.

[Edited on 06.09.2009 1:19 AM PDT]

  • 06.09.2009 1:16 AM PDT
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As Minion said, Nicole was not a canonical character.

  • 06.09.2009 2:15 AM PDT

Posted by: Dream053
Please do not quote the OP posts in their entirety. If there is something you wish to respond to, cut out everything but the portion that you wish to address. That will help us all when dealing with the already abnormally large size of the thread. If you see someone who has quoted an entire post without appropriately cutting it up, please REPORT it.

This theory (more accurately a hypothesis) sprouted from the continuous controversy over the Halo: Reach teaser's "Spartan-259" and "Spartan-320", and how their numbers must instantly mean that they are of "Class 2" of the Spartan-II Program. I feel that there is a lot of assumption going on regarding the Spartan callsigns / "conscription" numbers and the original selection process, and so I've busted out my novels in an attempt to provide a plausible explanation as to how and why these Spartans are part of the first "class" or "wave" of Spartan-II supersoldiers, rather than being from some sort of subsequent class.

Disclaimer: I do not in any way, shape, or form support the idea that "259" refers to Spartan-2 "059" rather than simply being a direct part of the callsign number. My theory does not deal with that incredibly silly, weightless supposition in any way, so do not bring it up here.

Thesis: The original 150-candidate group of children that was later cut in half to become the "first class" of 75 Spartan-II soldiers was a number dwindled down from an even larger pool of potential candidates for the program, thereby rendering the misconception that Spartan callsigns above 150 having to be from a secondary "class" as very unlikely.

Introduction: While I won't spent too much time giving backstory here, as I'm sure we're all quite accompanied to canonical Halo lore, I feel it is necessary to reiterate a few things here in order to help refresh both your memory as well as how you conceive this continuous debate.

The opposition to which my thesis is directed, is the idea that Spartans whose identification numbers go beyond "150" are instantly signified as being not from the first "class" of Spartan-II soldiers, but are a secondary "class". It is vitally important to understand where the idea of this "second class" of Spartans even came from:

Understanding The Spartan-II Project: "Class 2":
The idea of a secondary wave of Spartan-IIs was initially introduced into the novels during a briefing by Vice Admiral Stanforth to the Spartan-IIs about discovering the existence of The Covenant. After informing them that their training would have to be accelerated to its final phase, assimilation with Project MJOLNIR, he went on to inform them that CPO Mendez would be leaving to train a secondary wave of Spartan-IIs, as seen in this excerpt from Eryic Nylund's, "The Fall of Reach":

"The Fall of Reach", p. 99 - Admiral Stanforth and the Spartan-IIs
0600 Hours, November 2, 2525 (Military Calendar) /
Epsilon Eridani System, Reach UNSC Military Complex,
planet Reach

. . .
"To that end, I'm afraid I have another unpleasant announcement."

He turned to the Chief. "Chief Petty Officer Mendez will be departing us to train the next group of Spartans. Chief?"

Pushing "Dead or Alive 4"'s Nicole-458 aside, as she is entirely non-canonical, it seems that some people have also wrongly considered there to have been a second, canonical instance in which a Spartan-II, Class 2 was indicated, particularly in "I Love Bees", the Alternate Realty Game marketing project that hyped up Halo 2's release, when it is revealed that Durga, a splintered personality from a smart AI named "Melissa", was actually created via cognitive impression mapping from the mind of a Spartan girl who died during augmentation processes. However there is never any mention of what type of Spartan class this is:

"I Love Bees" - 'Kamal Meets Durga'
circa September, 2552

Durga: I'm not--I'm not Yasmine. I'm merely copied from her personality matrix. Your sister was abducted into the Spartan class of [2537], but she washed out.

"I Love Bees" - 'Had to Tell You'

circa September, 2552

Jersey: But, if they took Yasmine when she was 6, then 8 years of Spartan training, Kamal's 18, she dies... how old is Kamal?
Durga: 25.

As we can see, it is shown here that the Yasmine character is purported to have been conscripted into a Spartan program in 2537 at the age of six years-old, but it is not indicated whether it is the Spartan-II program's "2nd class", or if it is instead the Spartan-III program which, conveniently enough, had its second conscription process expedited in the midst of this very same year:

"Ghosts of Onyx", p. 88 - Vice Admiral Parangosky, Kurt-051
0900 Hours, July 30, 2537 (Military Calendar) \ Aboard
UNSC Point of No Return, Location Classified
(5 years fater Alpha Company introctrination)


"We have identified 375 candidates," Kurt said. "Slightly less than we started with for Alpha Company, but we have learned from our mistakes. We will be able to graduate a much higher percentage this time."

. . .

"Now I want you to focus and accelerate the training of the Beta Company Spartans," [Vice Admiral Parangosky] said. "We have a war to win."

According to the I Love Bees timeline, Yasmine would have died due to biological augmentations in 2545, a year from which we have no information on the Spartan-III project, which makes confirmation difficult. However, this next quote should provide an adequate clarification all on its own regarding the "Class-II" Spartans, and speculation notwithstanding, it should serve well as my opening argument. If that portion of I Love Bees was considered canon (as it was said to be "embraced" as such, rather than an all-encompassing statement that the entire project was canonical), it would be safe to assume that she was indeed part of the Spartan-III project's Beta Company, as it is the most multilaterally compatible of plausible explanations:

Ghosts of Onyx, p. 62-63 - Kurt-051 and Colonel Ackerson
1950 HOURS, DECEMBER 14, 2531 (MILITARY CALENDAR) \
ABOARD UNSC POINT OF NO RETURN, LOCATION CLASSIFIED

. . .
"What is this new mission, sir?"

Ackerson stared at him a moment, then seemed to look through Kurt, past him. "I want you to train the next generation of Spartans."

Kurt blinked, taking in what Ackerson had just said, not quite understanding. "Sir, I was under the impression that Chief Petty Officer Mendez had been reassigned years ago to carry out that mission."

"The effort to train additional Spartan-IIs was postponed indefinitely by Dr. Catherine Halsey," Ackerson said. "There were other candidates within the gene pool, but they were out of synch with her age restriction protocols. And with the continuing war, her program funds were . . . diverted."

Kurt had always presumed other Spartans were being trained, that he and his fellows were the first in what would be a long line of Spartans. He'd never considered they might be the first, and the last, of their kind.

This very quote tells us that the Spartan-II's second wave of Spartans was postponed indefinitely back in 2525, as CPO Mendez never did fulfill his original reassignment given that very year, and that her funding was subsequently redacted for other military uses. Now, six years later, nothing has changed. Nonetheless, some have argued that the word "indefinitely" leaves the situation open-ended, providing Halsey with the chance of restarting the Spartan-II project sometime in between 2531 and 2552. It is true that it doesn't explicitly state here that the Project was canceled altogether, there are also two very important things to consider here:

Section Three was responsible for the Spartan programs. Orion, Spartan-II, and Spartan-III. With Halsey's consistent absence of progress, they turned to Colonel Ackerson to bring the next wave of Spartans instead. Only this time, with new health, training, and budgetary protocols, the project would henceforth be separated from Halsey's predecessor. The Spartan-III program began to graduate Spartans of mass numbers in relatively shorter amounts of time that were also far cheaper to produce and support (GoO, p.63). Their high-risk missions were considered incredibly successful ones (despite the towering number of Spartan deaths) and their production continued through 2552, with the last class having begun in the mid 2540s. Given that this new project became Section Three's focus, we are at least somewhat led to believe that all focus on the original, out-dated Spartan-II project would have dissipated completely.

The second thing that we must pay close attention to is something that I will address in the beginning of the third post in this thread.


lol nerd

  • 06.09.2009 3:10 AM PDT

But since I am human, I am good and bad as well. But I try my hardest to stay good. And some of the things I do and say may be bad. Or just not too good, but I do try.

So with that said I dont fault you. I mean your only human, good or bad. But I also dont respect you, and I dont care if thats good or bad haha.

-blam!- if you understand me.
I love being misunderstood.

Heres the actual flashback she has it specifically says Halsey in it and other things that imply its her (called by name not number)


Happy birthday to me, happy birthday to Lab day, honey. But can't I have a slice
of Later. This will just take a few minutes.

Short walk through the
Labyrinth. Click clack of bootsteps in the corridors.
Into lab 7. Wait. Tongue depressors, swabsticks,
monitors. Wait. Happy birthday to me, happy birthday to Footsteps in the hall
Middle-aged, female; stride length and time suggest height approx. 1.7m.
Halsey
Door swings open. It's her. Coffee stains on labcoat. She gives me the queenly smile. Calls me
by name not number. Why not? She took my name away.
She owns it now, can use it if she likes. Tactical option reflex: unarmed;
swabstick through the eye; monitor wire
garrote. Linger there.
She tells me to get in the chair. I don't kill her.
She straps me down.
Fluorescent lights. Smell of formaldehyde. Still
feel the new implants, itchy little bumps along my spine.
Eggs waiting
to hatch. Gross. Try not to think about it.
More footsteps. Door opens and nurse comes in, steel tray rattling with
needles and scalpels and little evil scissors with hooked blades.
Halsey picks up a needle. Tests the plunger. Something yellow sprays out. Venom colored.
Don't worry, she says. The queenly smile. This will hardly hurt a bit.

  • 06.09.2009 10:31 AM PDT
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Posted by: xBl00dxKn1ghtx
Heres the actual flashback she has it specifically says Halsey in it and other things that imply its her (called by name not number)

Thanks a lot for posting this! I'm glad to have right clarification on that. I hadn't even thought of consulting the live call transcripts. I'll add this into the OP for further consideration. If this portion of I Love Bees is considered canonical, it certainly does ensure a second class of Spartan-IIs. If not, however, it'd remains inconsequential. In '06, Staten mentioned that they were actually currently working to figure out whether they were going to consider it or not, which conflicted with Frankie's previous statement that they already had. Now that Halo is in the arms of Microsoft, I'm not sure if Bungie even gets to call that shot anymore, unfortunately, so unless someone at a con with Frankie gets to ask, we might not get that answer until a future novel.

Anyway, this is good. Thank you for contributing.

Also, future posters, please report Angel's response.

  • 06.09.2009 12:34 PM PDT

But since I am human, I am good and bad as well. But I try my hardest to stay good. And some of the things I do and say may be bad. Or just not too good, but I do try.

So with that said I dont fault you. I mean your only human, good or bad. But I also dont respect you, and I dont care if thats good or bad haha.

-blam!- if you understand me.
I love being misunderstood.

Glad i could help

  • 06.09.2009 12:40 PM PDT

So it would now seem that the Spartans in the Reach trailer might actually be Class II Spartans. Right?

  • 06.09.2009 1:54 PM PDT
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Posted by: nV RavishWolf
So it would now seem that the Spartans in the Reach trailer might actually be Class II Spartans. Right?

If I Love Bees is being considered canon by Microsoft, then it is certainly possible, yes, but the jury has been out on that for quite some time, apparently.

[Edited on 06.09.2009 2:53 PM PDT]

  • 06.09.2009 2:53 PM PDT

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