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Subject: The Spartans in the Reach Teaser ARE "Class 1" Spartan-IIs
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Very nice write and some very useful information. Thanks!

  • 06.15.2009 8:45 PM PDT

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The Halo REACH Script (post thoughts in thread)

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I like this theory. Makes a lot of sense.

  • 06.15.2009 8:50 PM PDT

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The Halo REACH Script (post thoughts in thread)

Writing Lead of Whisper Studios. Check out Heron!

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woops, double

[Edited on 06.15.2009 8:58 PM PDT]

  • 06.15.2009 8:57 PM PDT
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Posted by: BTE
Posted by: Xharpan
it doese'nt look nextgen , looks good but not nextgen
If by next-gen you mean crappy, dark and colorless, I agree. It doesnt look next-gen at all.

Bloody hell, this thread was drowned in all the bull crap (OMFG TIME TRAVELZ) and i missed it. Very nice read, very nice points, and most of all very nicely presented.

  • 06.15.2009 9:10 PM PDT

Posted by: Ushan
Because Muslims surgically implant organic bombs in their testicles, which in turn will be injected into women during sex, which will grow into BABY BOMBS!

I dont think they're Spartans at all to be honest, but these are some very goods points that you make.

[Edited on 06.15.2009 10:10 PM PDT]

  • 06.15.2009 10:09 PM PDT
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Posted by: BTE
Posted by: Xharpan
it doese'nt look nextgen , looks good but not nextgen
If by next-gen you mean crappy, dark and colorless, I agree. It doesnt look next-gen at all.

Posted by: Tucker 051
I dont think they're Spartans at all to be honest, but these are some very goods points that you make.


Well, you get the guy at the end saying:

This is Sierra 2 - 5 - 9, you got Spartans on the ground, Sir, we are not going anywhere.

I think its safe to assume that the person who is speaking is a Spartan. Sure you can argue its some random marine saying it but i highly doubt it.

  • 06.15.2009 10:14 PM PDT

Back.. and to the left.
Back.. and to the left.
Back.. and to the left.
Back.. and to the left.
Back.. and to the left.
Back.. and to the left.
Back.. and to the left.

It could be Spatran-III Gamma Company. There were 330 Spartans in this company and as far as the story has been released, at the time of The Battle of Reach, they were graduated and are a very possible group of Spartans to be on Reach. It wasnt until over a year later when The Battle of Onyx happened so its also possible that all 330 Spartans were alive for the Battle of Reach.

Also with there being 330 Spartans, Sierra 259 and 320 become possible assuming Sierra means "Spartan" in the first place.

  • 06.17.2009 1:00 PM PDT
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Posted by: radical00edward
It could be Spatran-III Gamma Company. There were 330 Spartans in this company and as far as the story has been released, at the time of The Battle of Reach, they were graduated and are a very possible group of Spartans to be on Reach. It wasnt until over a year later when The Battle of Onyx happened so its also possible that all 330 Spartans were alive for the Battle of Reach.

Also with there being 330 Spartans, Sierra 259 and 320 become possible assuming Sierra means "Spartan" in the first place.

While I wouldn't mind this explanation, there are two things to consider. All Spartan-IIIs, including Gamma Company, have always identified themselves with their Company Letter (A for Alpha, B for Beta, etc.) preceding their Spartan conscription numbers. The Spartans in the Reach Teaser do not do this.

Additionally, the Gamma Spartans in present day 2552 were just going through their rapidly-induced puberty progression only a year and a half earlier, and it was shown that at least one of them was having issues with his voice cracking because of it. Even after the puberty progression's completion, puberty can only take a voice so far. It isn't designed to age a person as growth hormones do not have this ability. Given this, and the fact that they are all roughly 12-15 years-old, the voices do not match those in the Reach teaser, either, as they sound late-twenties / early-thirties.

I could see the voice thing being overcome, especially since Teaser trailers really shouldn't be dissected too much since we have no idea just how much of the Teaser is even important, but it's something to consider.

[Edited on 06.25.2009 3:11 AM PDT]

  • 06.17.2009 4:54 PM PDT

Back.. and to the left.
Back.. and to the left.
Back.. and to the left.
Back.. and to the left.
Back.. and to the left.
Back.. and to the left.
Back.. and to the left.

Ghosts of Onyx page 109. This chapter took place at 0210 Hours, February 20, 2551.
He had to go congradulate Gamma Company . . . and welcome them into the brotherhood of Spartans.

That was when Kurt recieved the Slipspace COM Probe with a message about the drugs used in Project CHRYSANTHEMIUM while he was watching the progress of the augmentations to see that every one of the 330 candidates made it through.

I didnt take into account the voices in the trailer. Youre right about that and also right about it being an early trailer and the voices are really up in the air as far as being accurate. Yes, they do identify with Spartan-G000, but I still think that they are a possible group of Spartans that might have made an appearance on Reach.

  • 06.17.2009 6:35 PM PDT
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Well, it was pointed out several times that Gamma Company didn't actually ship out until a week after Reach "fell", so if the novels are kept canonical, then that would be pretty unlikely.

  • 06.26.2009 10:29 PM PDT

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Posted by: Dream053
"I Love Bees" - 'Had to Tell You'

circa September, 2552

Jersey: But, if they took Yasmine when she was 6, then 8 years of Spartan training, Kamal's 18, she dies... how old is Kamal?
Durga: 25.[/quote]
As we can see, it is shown here that the Yasmine character is purported to have been conscripted into a Spartan program in 2537 at the age of six years-old, but it is not indicated whether it is the Spartan-II program's "2nd class", or if it is instead the Spartan-III program which, conveniently enough, had its second conscription process expedited in the midst of this very same year:
The Spartan IIIs of Beta company were conscripted in 2539.
Spartan III training took aproximately 6 years from beginning to deployment.
Spartan II training took closer to 8 years from beginning to deployment.

  • 06.26.2009 11:31 PM PDT
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Posted by: TheCyberFreak
The Spartan IIIs of Beta company were conscripted in 2539.

Do you have a citation for this? The only mention of the Beta Company conscription that I can recall is from the following excerpt which indicates that it was expedited in 2537 and not 2539:

"Ghosts of Onyx", p. 88 - Vice Admiral Parangosky, Kurt-051
0900 Hours, July 30, 2537 (Military Calendar) \ Aboard
UNSC Point of No Return, Location Classified
(5 years fater Alpha Company introctrination)


"We have identified 375 candidates," Kurt said. "Slightly less than we started with for Alpha Company, but we have learned from our mistakes. We will be able to graduate a much higher percentage this time."

. . .

"Now I want you to focus and accelerate the training of the Beta Company Spartans," [Vice Admiral Parangosky] said. "We have a war to win."


Cross-referencing the age parameters of the S-III selection process (four, five, and six years-old - GoO, p. 69) with the fact that Tom and Lucy are ten years-old in 2541(GoO, p. 92) would indicate that their class had to have begun in 2537.

Spartan III training took aproximately 6 years from beginning to deployment.
Spartan II training took closer to 8 years from beginning to deployment.

The above would disagree with this, but until we can verify either or, I can't really comment on this. Not really sure how this is relevant, either.

  • 06.27.2009 12:19 AM PDT

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Posted by: Dream053
Cross-referencing the age parameters of the S-III selection process (four, five, and six years-old - GoO, p. 69) with the fact that Tom and Lucy are ten years-old in 2541(GoO, p. 92) would indicate that their class had to have begun in 2537.
I would almost concede this point to you based on these facts. Except my own research has turned up further facts that raise some doubts.

It begins with this curiosity concerning the time required for Spartan III training. Consider this quote in referance to Alpha company from pg. 98 of GoO.

" Seven years Kurt had trained them, and grown to respect them. Now they were dead."

Kurt is experiencing this moment of contemplation during his briefing aboard UNSC Point of No Return on July 30, 2537, when he learns the fate of Alpha Company in Operation Prometheus. Except, Alpha Company touched ground to begin training on December 27th 2532. Which is only 5 years prior to the date of Kurt's briefing . So, if we consider that quote again, he is most likely not referring to seven years of training, since they didn't train for seven years but rather the seven years he's known them. The seven years he's refering to is inclusive of a 2 year period of selection and processing of the candidates prior to their being abducted and transferred to Onyx for training.

So How Long Did Alpha Company Train For
On pg. 81 of GoO, the Spartan IIIs of Alpha Company became operational 9 months prior to the date of Kurts briefing on Operation Prometheus, so aproximately October of 2536. That would imply a training period of about 4 years for Alpha company in total based on the date that they began training provided by the book.

So according to the dates in GoO, Alpha Company trained for 4 years and then died after less than 9 months of operation at ages ranging from 8 - 10.

Pulling it Together
On pg. 88 of GoO, the mysterious ONI Vice Admiral states to Kurt, "...I want you to focus and accelerate the training of the Beta Company Spartans,".

Given the fact that "expanded selection criteria" were used in the selection process for Beta Company(pg. 82, GoO), due to a general lack of genetically suitable candidates, it is possible that candidates older than the age range set for Alpha Company were inducted. Meaning Beta Company consisted of candidates older than 6 at the time of their induction.

Considering the following facts:
1. An "accelerated" training scheduled for Beta Company could mean a training time shorter than the 4 years required for Alpha Company.
2. The likely possibility that inductees older than 6 were processed as members of Beta Company.
3. Kurts referance to working on Alpha Company for 7 years even though it was 5 years after the start of their training.


It is altogether possible that Beta Company began training in 2539 after a 2 year vetting and selection process that began with genetic profiling in 2537.

Posted by: Dream053
Spartan III training took aproximately 6 years from beginning to deployment.
Spartan II training took closer to 8 years from beginning to deployment.
The above would disagree with this, but until we can verify either or, I can't really comment on this. Not really sure how this is relevant, either.
So I would adjust my estimate to aproximately 6 years total for a class of Spartan IIIs.
2 years of selection and processing
4 years of on the ground training


[Edited on 06.27.2009 11:42 AM PDT]

  • 06.27.2009 11:35 AM PDT
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has anyone given a thoght to that they COULD be SPARTAN-IIIs?

  • 06.27.2009 12:28 PM PDT
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Please don't take the following as if I'm writing off what you've said, because I'm not and I acknowledge their plausibility. However, now that you've pointed a big one out, there seems to be more than a few typo errors with Ghosts of Onyx concerning these dates that have somewhat put a shunt in the debatability of this particular point, rather than simply misleading words (including the "seven years of training"):

Posted by: TheCyberFreak
I would almost concede this point to you based on these facts. Except my own research has turned up further facts that raise some doubts.

It begins with this curiosity concerning the time required for Spartan III training. Consider this quote in referance to Alpha company from pg. 98 of GoO.

" Seven years Kurt had trained them, and grown to respect them. Now they were dead."

Kurt is experiencing this moment of contemplation during his briefing aboard UNSC Point of No Return on July 30, 2537, when he learns the fate of Alpha Company in Operation Prometheus. Except, Alpha Company touched ground to begin training on December 27th 2532. Which is only 5 years prior to the date of Kurt's briefing . So, if we consider that quote again, he is most likely not referring to seven years of training, since they didn't train for seven years but rather the seven years he's known them. The seven years he's refering to is inclusive of a 2 year period of selection and processing of the candidates prior to their being abducted and transferred to Onyx for training.

I'm not sure if you have a different version of the novel, but I have both the larger-sized and smaller-sized versions of GoO and the quote you're talking about is actually from p. 87 in both. Anyway, the issue with assuming that his mention of "training" translating to how long he knew them as well as a 2-year selection period is that this is contradicted of when we look at when Kurt was even assimilated into the S-III project to begin with.

Kurt's suit malfunction occurred on November 7, 2531. He was indoctrinated to run S-III by Ackerson on December 14, 2531 aboard the UNSC Point of No Return. He states "training" with Alpha Company for seven years on July 30, 2537 which in fact means that he could only have known about them for five and a half. This is further mucked up when we continue on to find that on December 27, 2531 --a mere twenty days later, it is stated that Kurt had, over the last six months, developed a training regime tougher than the original SPARTAN program, complete with obstacle courses, firing ranges, classrooms, mess halls, and dormitories, etc. -- twenty days =/= six months.

There is another huge inconsistency regarding the S-IIIs, specifically Beta Company's age based on Tom and Lucy:

I mentioned that Tom and Lucy are shown to be ten years-old in 2541. But in reading through the very first chapter in Ghosts of Onyx, which depicts the fall of Beta Company, they are twelve years-old in 2545 (GoO, p. 26), which also doesn't match up with the rest of the years.

Because of this, at the moment, neither your nor my provided quotes and analyses can prove nor disprove the indoctrination of Beta Company in either 2537 or 2539, but also consider regarding the new selection parameters that with an 'expanded selection criteria', the selection process would actually go faster as their requirements become more and more lax to encompass a broader population.

Regardless, given these slew of inconsistencies, it might simply help to throw Nylund an e-mail, since he seems to be relatively good with responding to fans about his novels. I might do this.

I should mention before you continue that someone earlier in this thread confirmed for us that the Spartan project that Yasmine was a part of in I Love Bees was indeed a subsequent class of Spartan-II soldiers, which has been amended to the OP posts for some time. So, if that is the point of pointing out these dates, you needn't. But I figured I'd continue on since, as I've mentioned, we have yet to have a definitive answer on whether I Love Bees is considered canon, and if so, what parts are being embraced (Frank O'Connor stated in a 1UP video show in 2006 that ILB was being "embraced as canon", but was then contradicted by Joe Staten in a 2006 interview with HBO's Halo Story Page, saying that they were working toward figuring out that question definitively).

I greatly appreciate your thorough responses.

  • 06.27.2009 4:20 PM PDT

What a waste....

: 0 that was long...

Hm, I just thought they would make something up to fit canon.

  • 06.27.2009 4:46 PM PDT
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Posted by: Nocbl2
Hm, I just thought they would make something up to fit canon.

I'm pretty sure they will. We're just trying to discern what is the most likely with what we currently know. Hell, for all we know all of this could be pointless of Bungie Day if the supposed "sneak peak" of Reach that Nathan Fillion was privileged to see makes its way to the fans.

  • 06.27.2009 5:05 PM PDT
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Posted by: dr spartan32
Yeah, I've never thought that Sierra 320 and 259 were Spartan -II- class 2's either, I even have doubts that they are Spartans all together. Spartans aren't the only ones in the military who are allowed to have call signs, are they?

Edit: Spelling.


It is possible someone responded to this, I didn't check all pages--I did feel I should correct you though--at the end of the Halo: Reach Trailer, Sierra 259 says, and I quote, :"This is Sierra 359. You've got Spartans on the ground sir. And we're not going anywhere."

Therefore, Sierra 259 is a Spartan, and, as the Sierra callsign is, in the Halo Universe, always used with Spartans, we can assume Sierra 320 is also one.

Also, while it is possible that they are Class One Spartans, in the larger team that defended the generators, that would be a rather short and fulfilling game, with little new story line, something rather unlike Bungie. I wouldn't be surprised to see more Spartans--Halsey wasn't the only one who could have done it--her AI, who's name escapes me, mentioned if she didn't proceed as those higher up wanted her too, they would replace her.

Meaning, a Second Class of Spartans was possible, and is easier for Bungie. We'll see next Fall, in any case.

  • 06.27.2009 5:34 PM PDT

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Damit!

  • 06.27.2009 8:06 PM PDT
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Posted by: TheCyberFreak
Damit!

Indeed. I've attempted to contact Nylund, but I'm not holding my breath. Until any further development on that end, however, any thoughts on the soundness of the rest of the theory?

Posted by: Null17
I wouldn't be surprised to see more Spartans--Halsey wasn't the only one who could have done it--her AI, who's name escapes me, mentioned if she didn't proceed as those higher up wanted her too, they would replace her.

Are you referring to Deja? Do you remember about where this was and in which novel? I don't recall such a passage, but it makes sense that such a replacement would be Colonel Ackerson and his S-III project, as I explained in the OP posts.

Meaning, a Second Class of Spartans was possible, and is easier for Bungie. We'll see next Fall, in any case.
I don't think either of us is qualified to say what is "easier for Bungie". If the fall of the generators is within the game, it could simply be a portion. The five silhouettes, though too early to really have any significance, makes one wonder if we'll be switching character perspectives throughout the game--perspectives that might not even be directly proximal to one another.

Point is, we don't even know what the game is going to focus on, so that observation is a bit out of place. I think we'll figure this out before Fall. Perhaps Bungie Day will shed some light on this if the forum speculation that Nathan Fillion's "sneak peak" will go public on 7/7 turns out to be true.

  • 06.29.2009 7:40 AM PDT

I could not agree more. I'd love to see FPS game play with a TPS cover system. Instead of "Training style" Spartans VS. Spartans" action, I'd really love to have the chance to play as Covenant forces. Larger scale battles with some historical significance in Halo lore would really be a nice change of pace from the tried and true death match type games we all have come to love. Being able to play as different classes of Covey troops would be awesome. Hell even if they included a "Horde" style co-op component where waves of Grunts, Jackals, Brutes Elites, Drones and Hunters try to wipe you out I'd be pretty stoked.

  • 06.29.2009 5:52 PM PDT
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Posted by: Luna Scythe
I could not agree more. I'd love to see FPS game play with a TPS cover system. Instead of "Training style" Spartans VS. Spartans" action, I'd really love to have the chance to play as Covenant forces. Larger scale battles with some historical significance in Halo lore would really be a nice change of pace from the tried and true death match type games we all have come to love. Being able to play as different classes of Covey troops would be awesome. Hell even if they included a "Horde" style co-op component where waves of Grunts, Jackals, Brutes Elites, Drones and Hunters try to wipe you out I'd be pretty stoked.

I'm pretty sure you've got the wrong thread.

  • 06.29.2009 10:03 PM PDT
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Wow... You have definintly done your research. Nice article.

  • 07.20.2009 7:16 PM PDT

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