Halo: Reach Forum
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Subject: Reach is not an MMORPG, but maybe something else...

First off, don't call it a WOW. They're called MMOs.

But the main point. I don't think Reach is going to be an MMO like WOW. For one thing, Reach wouldn't be a good setting for something like WOW, since we know the planet is glassed, and evacuated. But I was thinking: Awhile back I did a thread about having 64 player Multiplayer:
http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=31646106&p ostRepeater1-p=1

That's when I got introduced to MAG, a PS3 exclusive multiplayer shooter. This games has 256 player multiplayer, no campaign though.

With all these people saying Reach is going to be an MMO, I've been thinking maybe... just maybe... Halo Reach will have large scale online battles, with a campaign too.

What do you guys think?

EDIT: For all you guys who say that it couldn't handle more than 16 players, here's the thing: Halo 3 uses a host server system, meaning one person hosts the match with their connection, and every other player depends on that. However, were Bungie to build some dedicated servers, the game could easily run 64 player games. It's the same way Battlefield 2142 did theirs, and the multiplayer worked great.

[Edited on 06.07.2009 10:34 AM PDT]

  • 06.07.2009 10:22 AM PDT

Wow, and I thought 8v8 was too hectic for me...

  • 06.07.2009 10:23 AM PDT
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I do not appreciate B.Net Group solicitation. If you ignore this and send me an invitation anyway, I will block communications with you.

You mean like Unreal or Battlefield 2? As much as I would enjoy that, the Halo engine's requirements have left even 16-player multiplayer somewhat difficult to maintain at times. Mag sacrifices a lot in terms of visuals for the ability to play with such a massive amount of people, though I will admit, it still looks pretty decent.

I don't think we'll be seeing anything along those lines, to be quite honest.

  • 06.07.2009 10:24 AM PDT
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Gamertag: ODST Buck

As long as it doesn't lag I would mind it having large battles as long as it is executed well.

  • 06.07.2009 10:25 AM PDT

This would be a good time to point out that the US Government seriously did consider nuking the moon during the Cold War as a show of force. Project A119.

"A large explosion on the Terminator line would put the sun behind the mushroom cloud, making the explosion visible with the naked eye from Earth."

Then the US decided they'd just send in Neil Armstrong to land on it. Neil Armstrong - the one man on the earth that was considered a suitable replacement for a nuclear missile.

Bungie confirmed it was an FPS. Get over it.

  • 06.07.2009 10:26 AM PDT
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Proud frenchie, elite fan, anthro artist not hellbent on yiff convention/pics/whatever, mature and intelligent forum guy, 4chaner, halo 2 lover and halo 3 hater.

MAG like game? .... could be. I don't know. I hope not though.
as long as there's little to no lag and you can play as an elite, I'm fine.

  • 06.07.2009 10:27 AM PDT

I have to say, MAG's visuals weren't that bad. I'm pissed since it's a PS3 exclusive...

*Shakes fist in air*

But I think with the type of art style Halo uses, all Bungie would have to do is build dedicated servers. Halo 3 uses a host server system, but if Bungie built dedicated servers for the game, the Multiplayer could run fairly smoothly.

  • 06.07.2009 10:27 AM PDT
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Proud frenchie, elite fan, anthro artist not hellbent on yiff convention/pics/whatever, mature and intelligent forum guy, 4chaner, halo 2 lover and halo 3 hater.

Posted by: pawnanism
Bungie confirmed it was an FPS. Get over it.


MAG and huxley are mmofps btw.

  • 06.07.2009 10:28 AM PDT

Posted by: pawnanism
Bungie confirmed it was an FPS. Get over it.

I know that, I've been explaining that on other threads. But look at the exact quote:

Q. My cousin told me that Halo: Reach is a squad-based tactical MMO featuring all kinds of ridiculous stuff that I shouldn't believe. Is he a liar?

A. Halo: Reach will be a First Person Shooter. You will shoot stuff from a first person perspective. It will be awesome.

He says it's an FPS, but doesn't deny that it's an MMO. That's what got me thinking it might be an MMOFPS like MAG.

  • 06.07.2009 10:29 AM PDT
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I respect your opinion, I'm probably just going to disagree with it.

Just a quick point too, I noticed up there ^^ somewhere that it was mentioned that Halo's engine can't take more than 16 players - but since when did we know that this game was going to even use Halo 3's engine? It might be something new, for all we know. Just before we start capping our ideas :)

  • 06.07.2009 10:30 AM PDT

Posted by: Diaboy
Just a quick point too, I noticed up there ^^ somewhere that it was mentioned that Halo's engine can't take more than 16 players - but since when did we know that this game was going to even use Halo 3's engine? It might be something new, for all we know. Just before we start capping our ideas :)

I've edited the first post with a response to questions like this.

  • 06.07.2009 10:35 AM PDT

Well yea it can be done, and some people like me have been talking about this for years on the H3 forums.

There is this other game: Huxley.
It's an FPS game mixed with RPG elements, but most importantly: it plays like a MMO. There are literally thousands of people in the world of Huxley (or at least there will be when the game is out) just like in a standard MMO-RPG.
Only difference: This is a FPS, you still play this as a shooter....

Now this can easily be done inside the Halo universe too. This would allow for factions (like: UNSC, Rebels, Covenant and Heretics) and classes (Medic/Engineer = Grunt, Sniper = Jackal, Marine = Elite, Heavy (ODST for instance) = Brute, just to illustrate some options)
You could have spaceships as faction guilds, planets that can be conquered, space warfare etc.

Now imagine the planets that can be conquered. They could make these huge multiplayer maps, and makes these separate arena's. Hard to explain, but imagine the entire world as "open" and the planets as "traditional" maps. Now a matchmaking system could make it so that you can go there and fight in say 16v16 battles (multiple at the same time, just like how MM works now in H3) the system would then count which factions won most games and the buildings etc would represent that. I.e: UNSC wins more games, bases are UNSC style, Covie wins most games, the bases are Covie style.

This makes sure people will keep fighting over same locations over and over again, since you can not win a planet for the keeps so to say.

Lots of blah blah haha, but it comes down to this:
If this is what Reach would be, they got me really excited for this game...as long as I don't have to pay monthly to play it ;)

  • 06.07.2009 10:36 AM PDT

Posted by: DonVinzone1
Well yea it can be done, and some people like me have been talking about this for years on the H3 forums.

There is this other game: Huxley.
It's an FPS game mixed with RPG elements, but most importantly: it plays like a MMO. There are literally thousands of people in the world of Huxley (or at least there will be when the game is out) just like in a standard MMO-RPG.
Only difference: This is a FPS, you still play this as a shooter....

Now this can easily be done inside the Halo universe too. This would allow for factions (like: UNSC, Rebels, Covenant and Heretics) and classes (Medic/Engineer = Grunt, Sniper = Jackal, Marine = Elite, Heavy (ODST for instance) = Brute, just to illustrate some options)
You could have spaceships as faction guilds, planets that can be conquered, space warfare etc.

Now imagine the planets that can be conquered. They could make these huge multiplayer maps, and makes these separate arena's. Hard to explain, but imagine the entire world as "open" and the planets as "traditional" maps. Now a matchmaking system could make it so that you can go there and fight in say 16v16 battles (multiple at the same time, just like how MM works now in H3) the system would then count which factions won most games and the buildings etc would represent that. I.e: UNSC wins more games, bases are UNSC style, Covie wins most games, the bases are Covie style.

This makes sure people will keep fighting over same locations over and over again, since you can not win a planet for the keeps so to say.

Lots of blah blah haha, but it comes down to this:
If this is what Reach would be, they got me really excited for this game...as long as I don't have to pay monthly to play it ;)

Here's exactly what I said on a previous forum:
If Halo 3 could support 64 players per game, would you play massive battles?

I know that lag would be an issue with games this size, but I think Halo 3 Multiplayer would be the best Multiplayer I've ever seen if there were large scale games with enormous maps. There would need to be a few tweaks however: Better long distance guns, partially stronger vehicles, inclusion of the Pelican, Phantom, and Scarab. But personally, battles like this would make my day. Chaos all around you, Scarabs marching over you, Pelicans crashing out of the sky, packs of Warthogs speeding along, mad dashes of a dozen soldiers across the terrain. The scenes would be epic, and the games would be spectacular.

How about you? Would you like to see games like this? Or is Halo 3 Matchmaking good enough as is?

NOTE: THIS IS A "WHAT IF" QUESTION. THERE WOULD BE LAG WITH THE HALO 3 ENGINE ON A GAME THIS SIZE. THIS IS TO MERELY ASK IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, WOULD YOU PLAY IT?

Revisions to gameplay:

Now of course with games this big there would need to be some changes to the gameplay. Here are my ideas.

1. Revamped Super Maps.
Of course we'd need new maps, much larger to make up for the number of players. I was thinking about 6X Blood Gulch. However, the way maps are built would have to be changed too. I was thinking about something similar to the Star Wars Battlefront series. Each team would have a stronghold (large base) they start out in. This stronghold would have lots of vehicles, weapons, and objective points. The base would be built of small bunkers with maybe a surrounding wall. Similar bunkers would be scattered around the maps to create footholds. As your team advances, once some of your player's make it into these bunkers, the spawn points become active on your team. You could then choose where on the battlefield you would spawn. However each team could only hold 1 stronghold at a time.

2. Better Long Range Weapons.
Although we all love our BRs and Carbines, we'd need more long range weapons. They'd have to be more like COD 4 rifles: Automatic, decently accurate at long range, good strength to handle themselves at close range. Because of the long range battles of infantry that would occur, we'd need a little something more than just BRs, Carbines, and Snipers.

3. The Big Rides.
This could be negligible, but it would just about double the awesomeness if we had Pelicans, Phantoms and Scarabs at our disposal. You spawn in your Stronghold, look to the battlefield, and notice the giant crawler bringing your impending doom. The epic sense of battle would intensify with the aerial support given by the two aerial transport vehicles. Dropships and Scarabs would be an excellent addition and greatly vary gameplay. Scarabs would be altered with two seats. The driver would control movement with Left Stick, and fire the main head cannon. One back seat would control rear tail turret. Also, destroying the engine core would be a much faster explosion to kill the guys onboard. This would make it adaptable for Multiplayer. Maybe even ODST drop pods.

4. Chat Modifications.
I'm sure most realize the problem with having 32 teammates yelling into their mics at the same time. To make it a bit smoother, I would do two things. First, before each game, the entire team would be divided into 4 man squads. Each squad would have a leader, who would either be chosen at random pre-game or chosen by the group. Each squad could only talk between themselves, except for the squad leader. The squad leader would press a button (up on D Pad), and could then talk to all the other squad leaders. They would only be heard by other Squad leaders if they are holding down the button, like a walkie-talkie. This way, you only have 8 guys talking between each other. The squad leaders would have to strategize and inform each other about what is going on. Secondly, the remaining 3 D pad keys would be devoted to non-verbal messages. The Squad Leader would use these to quickly inform the entire team of what is happening. Each 3 would be specific: 1 Squad 1 is moving in to attack. 2 Squad 1 is being attacked or engaged. 3 Squad 3 needs assistance. This would make it easy for the entire team, by having the text appear at the bottom of the screen. In order to keep the screen spam down, you could only punch these in every 5 seconds.

  • 06.07.2009 10:38 AM PDT

Don't be afraid of the giant wall of text.

  • 06.07.2009 10:45 AM PDT

Register at your local Vault Tec office today! The world might not be there tomorrow...

Sounds like MAG.

  • 06.07.2009 10:46 AM PDT

Posted by: StateOfRuin
Sounds like MAG.

Actually, I wrote this all before I heard about MAG. I was surprised when I read an article about MAG, it sounded the same.

  • 06.07.2009 10:48 AM PDT

Posted by: Spectre Bravo
Posted by: DonVinzone1
Well yea it can be done, and some people like me have been talking about this for years on the H3 forums.

There is this other game: Huxley.
It's an FPS game mixed with RPG elements, but most importantly: it plays like a MMO. There are literally thousands of people in the world of Huxley (or at least there will be when the game is out) just like in a standard MMO-RPG.
Only difference: This is a FPS, you still play this as a shooter....

Now this can easily be done inside the Halo universe too. This would allow for factions (like: UNSC, Rebels, Covenant and Heretics) and classes (Medic/Engineer = Grunt, Sniper = Jackal, Marine = Elite, Heavy (ODST for instance) = Brute, just to illustrate some options)
You could have spaceships as faction guilds, planets that can be conquered, space warfare etc.

Now imagine the planets that can be conquered. They could make these huge multiplayer maps, and makes these separate arena's. Hard to explain, but imagine the entire world as "open" and the planets as "traditional" maps. Now a matchmaking system could make it so that you can go there and fight in say 16v16 battles (multiple at the same time, just like how MM works now in H3) the system would then count which factions won most games and the buildings etc would represent that. I.e: UNSC wins more games, bases are UNSC style, Covie wins most games, the bases are Covie style.

This makes sure people will keep fighting over same locations over and over again, since you can not win a planet for the keeps so to say.

Lots of blah blah haha, but it comes down to this:
If this is what Reach would be, they got me really excited for this game...as long as I don't have to pay monthly to play it ;)

Here's exactly what I said on a previous forum:
If Halo 3 could support 64 players per game, would you play massive battles?

I know that lag would be an issue with games this size, but I think Halo 3 Multiplayer would be the best Multiplayer I've ever seen if there were large scale games with enormous maps. There would need to be a few tweaks however: Better long distance guns, partially stronger vehicles, inclusion of the Pelican, Phantom, and Scarab. But personally, battles like this would make my day. Chaos all around you, Scarabs marching over you, Pelicans crashing out of the sky, packs of Warthogs speeding along, mad dashes of a dozen soldiers across the terrain. The scenes would be epic, and the games would be spectacular.

How about you? Would you like to see games like this? Or is Halo 3 Matchmaking good enough as is?

NOTE: THIS IS A "WHAT IF" QUESTION. THERE WOULD BE LAG WITH THE HALO 3 ENGINE ON A GAME THIS SIZE. THIS IS TO MERELY ASK IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, WOULD YOU PLAY IT?

Revisions to gameplay:

Now of course with games this big there would need to be some changes to the gameplay. Here are my ideas.

1. Revamped Super Maps.
Of course we'd need new maps, much larger to make up for the number of players. I was thinking about 6X Blood Gulch. However, the way maps are built would have to be changed too. I was thinking about something similar to the Star Wars Battlefront series. Each team would have a stronghold (large base) they start out in. This stronghold would have lots of vehicles, weapons, and objective points. The base would be built of small bunkers with maybe a surrounding wall. Similar bunkers would be scattered around the maps to create footholds. As your team advances, once some of your player's make it into these bunkers, the spawn points become active on your team. You could then choose where on the battlefield you would spawn. However each team could only hold 1 stronghold at a time.

2. Better Long Range Weapons.
Although we all love our BRs and Carbines, we'd need more long range weapons. They'd have to be more like COD 4 rifles: Automatic, decently accurate at long range, good strength to handle themselves at close range. Because of the long range battles of infantry that would occur, we'd need a little something more than just BRs, Carbines, and Snipers.

3. The Big Rides.
This could be negligible, but it would just about double the awesomeness if we had Pelicans, Phantoms and Scarabs at our disposal. You spawn in your Stronghold, look to the battlefield, and notice the giant crawler bringing your impending doom. The epic sense of battle would intensify with the aerial support given by the two aerial transport vehicles. Dropships and Scarabs would be an excellent addition and greatly vary gameplay. Scarabs would be altered with two seats. The driver would control movement with Left Stick, and fire the main head cannon. One back seat would control rear tail turret. Also, destroying the engine core would be a much faster explosion to kill the guys onboard. This would make it adaptable for Multiplayer. Maybe even ODST drop pods.

4. Chat Modifications.
I'm sure most realize the problem with having 32 teammates yelling into their mics at the same time. To make it a bit smoother, I would do two things. First, before each game, the entire team would be divided into 4 man squads. Each squad would have a leader, who would either be chosen at random pre-game or chosen by the group. Each squad could only talk between themselves, except for the squad leader. The squad leader would press a button (up on D Pad), and could then talk to all the other squad leaders. They would only be heard by other Squad leaders if they are holding down the button, like a walkie-talkie. This way, you only have 8 guys talking between each other. The squad leaders would have to strategize and inform each other about what is going on. Secondly, the remaining 3 D pad keys would be devoted to non-verbal messages. The Squad Leader would use these to quickly inform the entire team of what is happening. Each 3 would be specific: 1 Squad 1 is moving in to attack. 2 Squad 1 is being attacked or engaged. 3 Squad 3 needs assistance. This would make it easy for the entire team, by having the text appear at the bottom of the screen. In order to keep the screen spam down, you could only punch these in every 5 seconds.


To me, this is where Halo needs to go.
With all respect, Halo 3 isn't as great as Halo 2 was.
Its all because Halo 2 was still years ahead of the competition, about 3 years to be exact...cuz when H3 came out 3 years later the competition completely copied Halo on every level making every shooter on the consoles like Halo....So Halo 3 wasn't special anymore. Plus we had the same multiplayer in 3 minor variations, so its time to do something new.

This would be epic. I mean, sure there is Huxley...but put Halo in the name and this could propel the MMO-FPS subgenre into the spotlights and make it HUGE. After that, all other shooters will follow of course, but Halo will once again be remembered as a pioneer and doing something great and fresh on the consoles.

Plus who doesn't want huge battles with lot of things going on?

  • 06.07.2009 10:49 AM PDT

KEEP IT CLEAN

tl;dr the large wall of text, so sorry if I repeat anything that was already stated.

1. If Reach was an MMORPG, there would pretty much have to be a large open world where you travel to certain places, like a battle or something. There would be quests and massive action. Does this sound like an FPS to you?

2. If it somehow was an MMORPG, I think it would be neat if the 5 Spartans shown in the picture were 5 different classes.

3. Bungie would not make an MMO... it's too risky.

  • 06.07.2009 10:50 AM PDT

Posted by: xxPhyrexx
tl;dr the large wall of text, so sorry if I repeat anything that was already stated.

1. If Reach was an MMORPG, there would pretty much have to be a large open world where you travel to certain places, like a battle or something. There would be quests and massive action. Does this sound like an FPS to you?

2. If it somehow was an MMORPG, I think it would be neat if the 5 Spartans shown in the picture were 5 different classes.

3. Bungie would not make an MMO... it's too risky.

I stated in my first post that I wasn't talking about an MMORPG, but something under the lines of MMOFPS, like MAG. If you read everything that's numbered, you'd understand.

  • 06.07.2009 10:55 AM PDT

If you can, go find an article on MAG. It's kind of what I'm thinking of.

  • 06.07.2009 11:00 AM PDT

I don't want to join your group.

"In science one tries to tell people, in such a way as to be understood by everyone, something that no one ever knew before. But in poetry, it's the exact opposite." - Paul Dirac

I doubt it. Bungie has found a formula that works for a multiplayer FPS, and I doubt they deviate too far from their current format.

Also, no dedicated servers for Halo. Ever. They're too damn expensive for anything with a sizable player base.

  • 06.07.2009 11:07 AM PDT

I think this would make a lot of sense.
Microsoft would need a reply to MAG.
But when does MAG come out?

  • 06.07.2009 11:08 AM PDT

Posted by: SilentStorm20
I doubt it. Bungie has found a formula that works for a multiplayer FPS, and I doubt they deviate too far from their current format.

Also, no dedicated servers for Halo. Ever. They're too damn expensive for anything with a sizable player base.

It would make sense though. And considering Halo 3 made over $600,000,000 I think they can afford some dedicated servers, it'd be worth is for massive multiplayer.

  • 06.07.2009 11:09 AM PDT
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No way in hell

  • 06.07.2009 11:09 AM PDT
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Posted by: Spectre Bravo
Posted by: pawnanism
Bungie confirmed it was an FPS. Get over it.

I know that, I've been explaining that on other threads. But look at the exact quote:

Q. My cousin told me that Halo: Reach is a squad-based tactical MMO featuring all kinds of ridiculous stuff that I shouldn't believe. Is he a liar?

A. Halo: Reach will be a First Person Shooter. You will shoot stuff from a first person perspective. It will be awesome.

He says it's an FPS, but doesn't deny that it's an MMO. That's what got me thinking it might be an MMOFPS like MAG.

An FPS is a genre. An MMOFPS is an entirely different genre, ie, based in said MMO environment, with no "single-player" or "campaign". That is why they are classified separately. Just because a game has a larger player count doesn't make it an MMO game.

Halo:REACH is an FPS, period. It might have large player counts in Multiplayer, though I highly doubt it, but regardless, it is not an "MMOFPS".

  • 06.07.2009 11:13 AM PDT

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