Halo: Reach Forum
This topic has moved here: Subject: Reach MP - This is what NEEDs to happen
  • Subject: Reach MP - This is what NEEDs to happen
Subject: Reach MP - This is what NEEDs to happen

I agree with everything here, especially fall damage. Like someone people mentioned, it doesn't fit the book Canon, but i think the games came out first right? So ignore it.

I just played a few hours of H:CE 1v1's with my friend when he came over, and fall damage was the most fun part of the games, it was amazing. I would jump away, and i'd fall and he'd clean it up a good portion of the time.

It doesn't inhibit gameplay, it just makes you pay the price for stupidity and carelessness.

Good post.

  • 09.09.2009 8:56 AM PDT

Reach MMO. Here's to hoping.

And the people that believe "the hardcore playlists would be more popular if the rules were strictly MLG" can come off it, now. If you're not willing to support something close to your own setup, there's no reason for us to believe that cloning our own lists and stripping the variety down will attract more people. -- Shishka, Bungie.net

Posted by: TheBigShow
Multiplayer has always been a huge part of the Halo franchise. Gamers who have been with the series since its inception have seen the gameplay move from a faster paced game of quick wits, dexterous fingers, and careful planning to a slower paced, almost exclusively team-based, game of positioning rather than player ability.

The change was applauded by some and criticized by others, and the ultimate goal was always apparent; make the game more accessible and appeal to a newer audience. Well, I think its time the franchise moved forward from the hand-holding era into the gamer era. The vast majority of Reach players will be players who have now experience at least one Halo game, and the mechanics, controls and gameplay should be second nature by now. I believe its time for the gameplay to reach new heights by striking a balance between individual ability and team-based gameplay. The game can still remain easily accessible to newer players, but it won't do so to the exclusion of gamers looking for a more challenging MP experience.

The following changes would be beneficial to every player of Halo; the changes would open up the game, challenge players, and provide a more rewarding, lasting experience for everyone.


A) Longer range on all weapons : in Halo 3, combat was almost exclusively close-quarters. No weapon aside from the Sniper Rifles and Lasers could effectively damage an opponent outside of even moderate ranges. Increasing the ranges of all weapons will open up the gameplay to incorporate every aspect of the levels. Close range weapons will still have a prominent role, they just wont have all the focus like they currently do.

B) A Mid-Range Weapon : The BR was the mid-range standard for Halo 3. The problem is, it was hardly "mid-range" and it had a few other serious problems. I would like to see a single shot weapon that can effectively damage enemies at long ranges. Yes, I know many of you think this would lead to overuse of the weapon, but if balanced correctly (i.e. its very hard to use at long ranges, not random, just very hard) it would work just fine and would open up gameplay immensely.

C) Less Aim Assist : In Halo 3, AR bullets would literally curve through the air to hit their opponents. The AR! One of the bullet hoses of the game, with a large reticle that already made hitting your opponent easy enough had ridiculous bullet and reticle magnetism. The Rocket Launcher, splash damage machine, had ridiculous rocket magnetism, which caused the rockets to physically curve towards the opponent. Most of the time, the rocket curve was a huge annoyance. These types of Aim Assist are completely unnecessary and only serve to lower the skill curve of the game. A small amount of reticle and bullet magnetism is all that is needed on the weapons, at most.

D) Fixed Melee : There is absolutely no reason for a 90 degree lunge or aim assist on melees. If I'm looking at an enemy and I'm within 10 feet or so, I should land the melee. What shouldn't happen is me meleeing when I see the enemy out of the corner of my eye or below me and have my character flip 100 degrees, lunge 20 feet and curve through the air and land the melee. Thats ridiculous and is one of the main reasons Halo 2 and Halo 3's close quarters combat is so terrible. Also, I don't want a "window of opportunity" for everyone to counter melee like we have in Halo 3. Lets just accept the fact that online, the host will have certain advantages, melee being one of the more significant. I'd rather have one host player have a small advantage than have everyone be saddled by a lame melee system. If we made melee's require actually aiming at the enemy to hit, the host advantage wouldn't be as big of a deal anyway.

E) Fall Damage : Fall damage, not only from a logistical standpoint in terms of the armor, should be standard in Reach's MP. Fall Damage forces players to think and plan their actions more carefully rather than throw themselves around with reckless abandon. A small slip-up could be fatal, and it adds a new dimension to levels and how players move about them. Additionally, the crouch land should be included as a way to prevent full fall damage on impact.

F) Faster Kill Speed : In recent Halo games, the majority of the weapons had a very slow kill speed. What I mean by that is that it generally took around two seconds to kill one opponent, assuming every shot hits. Two seconds may not sound like a long time, but in terms of a MP game, it makes a huge difference. It allows players with poor positioning and planning to easily escape from their situations just by running away. Weapons need to have the ability to kill a little quicker in Reach (although it should be much more difficult to land all the shots). I'm not asking for one shot kills with every weapon, I just want battles to be more intense and require greater awareness rather than a slow draw out affair where one opponent simply starts running away.

G) Faster Strafe Speed : Halo 3 had a myriad of customization options, including player speed. While I always applaud more customization options, there was one large problem with this one. Increasing the speed did not change the strafe speed, and there was no option to do so. Strafing needs to be a quick, precise motion rather than a slow, lumbering, easy-to-follow movement. The default strafe speed should be higher, or at least have the option to increase it.

H) No Dual Wielding : Dual wielding has been attempted in the past two Halo games and each time it has felt unsatisfying, unfun, and leads to a slew of other problems. The most significant is the "half-weapon" syndrome, which Bungie attempted to fix in Halo 3. Dual wielding also prevents weapons from having unique, powerful features. The most blatant would be the removal of the plasma freeze. In order to keep plasma weapons, which are dual-weildable, balance, Bungie couldn't keep their freezing property in or it would be overpowered. So they tossed it in an effort to push dual-wielding. Which leads me to my next point....

I) Return of Plasma Freeze : We need to see unique weapons return to Halo MP, rather than just a large amount of cloned, uninspired, unused weapons. The plasma freeze added a very unique feel and use to the plasma weapons in Halo CE. The plasma rifle was preferable to even the shotgun in some applications instead of a largely unused spam weapon it is now. Without the freeze, the plasma weapons are relegated to second class weapons, serving only one or two worthwhile purposes.

J) Wider FOV : The FOV has gotten progressively smaller with each new Halo game. The only logical reason for this would be to lower the amount of rendering the engine does. However, I would gladly sacrifce all the superfluous elements of the maps (camping stools, barrels, shrubbery, 3d skyboxes, etc) for better gameplay (i.e. wider FOV). A wider FOV enables players to see a more realistic view of the battlefield and removes the tunnel vision dizziness that many players experienced with Halo 2 and Halo 3.

K) Balanced Vehicles : Requiring players to have a specific, cumbersome, slow weapon to even have a remote chance of posing a threat to vehicles is unbalanced, unfun and just plain ridiculous. Vehicles should be a viable option, but they shouldn't be domininant, overpowered killing machines that rule the battlefield.

Well, thats it for now. Just a brief list of things that should be changed for the game to evolve to new levels. If you disagree with any of them, let me know and I'd love to chat about it with you.


So you want an update to Halo 3? I think a large update could make every one of these points happen. Why would you want Bungie to make a whole new game, just to give Halo 3 MP an update?

  • 09.09.2009 9:15 AM PDT

Posted by: Tyguy101

So you want an update to Halo 3? I think a large update could make every one of these points happen. Why would you want Bungie to make a whole new game, just to give Halo 3 MP an update?


What?! How the hell could you do all that in an update?

  • 09.09.2009 9:22 AM PDT

They couldn't most likely, not without re-writing a lot of script and changing some of the most basic functions of the physics engine.

  • 09.09.2009 9:30 AM PDT
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You basicly saying we need to be call of duty

  • 09.09.2009 10:06 AM PDT

Clearly because the desktop uses a 3 prong plug and a laptop uses a 2 prong plug, the microwave will fill your car with tostitos better

An important thing to keep in mind is that some of this stuff could be put in as options that you can turn off (i.e. fall damage, maybe plasma freeze somehow, strafe speed, more specific damage increase/decreases for weapons). MM in Reach doesn't have to add any of these features. But everyone is always talking about how they want variety. One of the things that makes H3 great is that you have so many options, it doesn't make sense to stop now, by adding more options in custom games Bungie can cater to a much larger crowd and everyone can be happy.

I don't think a lot of these things could be put in with an update as Tyguy said. Some of it would be changing the fundamentals of the physics engine, and at this point in H3's life, its not worth it.

Posted by: PCHawk
You basicly saying we need to be call of duty


So you've never played Halo CE is what your saying?

[Edited on 09.09.2009 10:09 AM PDT]

  • 09.09.2009 10:08 AM PDT

Reach MMO. Here's to hoping.

And the people that believe "the hardcore playlists would be more popular if the rules were strictly MLG" can come off it, now. If you're not willing to support something close to your own setup, there's no reason for us to believe that cloning our own lists and stripping the variety down will attract more people. -- Shishka, Bungie.net

Posted by: iwanneatchips
Posted by: Tyguy101

So you want an update to Halo 3? I think a large update could make every one of these points happen. Why would you want Bungie to make a whole new game, just to give Halo 3 MP an update?


What?! How the hell could you do all that in an update?


A) Longer range on all weapons : Bungie at any time can change the range and damage of any weapon
B) A Mid-Range Weapon - guns are added in updates to other games all the time
C) Less Aim Assist - easily updatable
D) Fixed Melee - whatever you want done can be updated, they already did it once
E) Fall Damage - may require some programming, but easily changed
F) Faster Kill Speed - increase weapon damage or decrease shields and health
G) Faster Strafe Speed - easily changed
H) No Dual Wielding - Bungie can just snap their fingers
I) Return of Plasma Freeze - may require some programming, but probably is as easy as adding another weapon
J) Wider FOV - This may be the only thing that cannot be done in an update. The FOV is probably a set standard for the games entire code
K) Balanced Vehicles - Once again, they can just edit their damage or HP.




Seems like an update is fairly possible to me.

  • 09.09.2009 10:17 AM PDT
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Ive played HaloCE recently,i get the plasma freeze.BUT WHY IN THE HECK DO YOU WANT THIS!!!!THIS GUY SAYING THIS GAME NEEDS TO BE LIKE COD....ITZ OUTRAGEOUS!!!

  • 09.09.2009 10:18 AM PDT

Clearly because the desktop uses a 3 prong plug and a laptop uses a 2 prong plug, the microwave will fill your car with tostitos better

Posted by: PCHawk
Ive played HaloCE recently,i get the plasma freeze.BUT WHY IN THE HECK DO YOU WANT THIS!!!!THIS GUY SAYING THIS GAME NEEDS TO BE LIKE COD....ITZ OUTRAGEOUS!!!


I don't get that at all... many of these suggestions are aspects of the previous two Halo games.

  • 09.09.2009 10:26 AM PDT

Alt+F4=secret weapon in Halo PC!

Thank you. Just, thank you. I've have also been saying this for years. As unlikely as it may sound, there is hope for the competitive community.

  • 09.09.2009 12:33 PM PDT

Character Artist -- Electronic Arts

Dear OP,

No.

P.S. Bullets don't curve in the air. Weapon effectiveness is supposed to decrease over a large distance, thats sort of the whole point to the Sniper Rifle.

P.S.S. Sounds like you really need to adopt a new play style.

  • 09.09.2009 12:47 PM PDT

You are lame...

The OP is pure win, anyone who disagrees has not played the first 2 Halo's at a high level of competition/skill.

  • 09.09.2009 2:07 PM PDT

Clearly because the desktop uses a 3 prong plug and a laptop uses a 2 prong plug, the microwave will fill your car with tostitos better

Posted by: melanieadu
if u dont like matchmakin so much why are u a brigadier? just sayin....


Playing 1485 games of Halo in almost 2 years is not that much. That's a lot less than many people who have been playing for a year less than him that I've seen around.

Posted by: SS_Crow
Dear OP,

No.

P.S. Bullets don't curve in the air. Weapon effectiveness is supposed to decrease over a large distance, thats sort of the whole point to the Sniper Rifle.

P.S.S. Sounds like you really need to adopt a new play style.


No to everything? Lol. A true Halo 3 player.

Bullets do curve through the air. Its a form of aim assist that is commonly used in console shooters to make up for the inaccuracy of controller joysticks.

I don't see how he needs to adopt a new play style. He has played less than half the amount of Halo you have played and is a higher level.

  • 09.09.2009 2:16 PM PDT

Character Artist -- Electronic Arts

Posted by: Xx Mr Bill xX
Posted by: melanieadu
if u dont like matchmakin so much why are u a brigadier? just sayin....


Playing 1485 games of Halo in almost 2 years is not that much. That's a lot less than many people who have been playing for a year less than him that I've seen around.

Posted by: SS_Crow
Dear OP,

No.

P.S. Bullets don't curve in the air. Weapon effectiveness is supposed to decrease over a large distance, thats sort of the whole point to the Sniper Rifle.

P.S.S. Sounds like you really need to adopt a new play style.


No to everything? Lol. A true Halo 3 player.

Bullets do curve through the air. Its a form of aim assist that is commonly used in console shooters to make up for the inaccuracy of controller joysticks.

I don't see how he needs to adopt a new play style. He has played less than half the amount
of Halo you have played and is a higher level.


The Auto-aim of the bullets (with the except of the rocket launcher) always lands within the reticule. I've confirmed this with multiple Bungie Employees. Bullets don't curve out of the reticule.

Also, Don't try to use Stats as a way to validate an opinion. Its absurd. I rarely play ranked matches, as you can see he has played 983 ranked matches compared to my 513. And the difference in levels is only 4. But, Levels are not reliable representations of skill(which are also not measurements to validate an opinion).

But if you want to stat wank off:
http://halocharts.com/index.php?player=Mr+BiIl
http://halocharts.com/index.php?player=BigShow36
http://halocharts.com/index.php?player=Der%20Crow

Using skill in such regard is the shallowest method of which to try and discredit someone who does not share an opinion. (typical MLG)

I recognize where Halo 3 has problems, and they are subtle and very specific.\

[Edited on 09.09.2009 2:35 PM PDT]

  • 09.09.2009 2:29 PM PDT

One thing I would really like to see implemented is a change in the running speed while going backward. I don't think someone running backwards being chased by someone running forward should go at the same speed. Maybe a 25% reduction in speed going backward? Thoughts?

[Edited on 09.09.2009 3:22 PM PDT]

  • 09.09.2009 3:21 PM PDT

Posted by: SS_Crow

Also, Don't try to use Stats as a way to validate an opinion. Its absurd. I rarely play ranked matches, as you can see he has played 983 ranked matches compared to my 513. And the difference in levels is only 4. But, Levels are not reliable representations of skill(which are also not measurements to validate an opinion).

But if you want to stat wank off:
http://halocharts.com/index.php?player=Mr+BiIl
http://halocharts.com/index.php?player=BigShow36
http://halocharts.com/index.php?player=Der%20Crow

Using skill in such regard is the shallowest method of which to try and discredit someone who does not share an opinion. (typical MLG)

I recognize where Halo 3 has problems, and they are subtle and very specific.\


"Skill" in this context is not represented well in Halo 3. I wouldn't care if I was a level 1 and you were a level 50. Why should I care about "skill" in Halo 3 when its so poorly balanced towards unskilled players? The only Halo game I take seriously in terms of skill is Halo CE, for very good reason.

The suggestions I propose would make the game better represent player skill. Thats all I want. It would make the game better for everyone. Newer players would be matched with newer players and would be able to see tangible improvements and rewards as they increased in skill, and skilled players wouldn't be frustrated by dumbed down gameplay.

[Edited on 09.09.2009 4:47 PM PDT]

  • 09.09.2009 4:45 PM PDT

"Eyes from Death's dream kingdom appear as sunlight on a broken column. There, in Death's other kingdom, walking alone, trembling lips form prayers to broken stone."

I agree with most of this. The aim-assist never really occurred to me as overdone though. I guess it would be better if it was similar to Halo 1's aiming, but you do have to have SOME aim assist. It would be near damn impossible without something.

  • 09.09.2009 5:23 PM PDT

Clearly because the desktop uses a 3 prong plug and a laptop uses a 2 prong plug, the microwave will fill your car with tostitos better

The Auto-aim of the bullets (with the except of the rocket launcher) always lands within the reticule. I've confirmed this with multiple Bungie Employees. Bullets don't curve out of the reticule.

I don't think myself or the OP said they curve out of the reticule... It is undeniable that they do curve inside of the reticule however. That is still aim assist.

Also, Don't try to use Stats as a way to validate an opinion. Its absurd. I rarely play ranked matches, as you can see he has played 983 ranked matches compared to my 513. And the difference in levels is only 4. But, Levels are not reliable representations of skill(which are also not measurements to validate an opinion).

But if you want to stat wank off:
http://halocharts.com/index.php?player=Mr+BiIl
http://halocharts.com/index.php?player=BigShow36
http://halocharts.com/index.php?player=Der%20Crow

Using skill in such regard is the shallowest method of which to try and discredit someone who does not share an opinion. (typical MLG)


I was just trying to prove a point with the rank statement. You said he needs to adopt a new play style and I used a system created by MS and implemented by Bungie that says that whatever play style he has (according to trueskill of course) is better than whatever one your using. I agree that neither stats or levels are a good way to validate who is more skilled, but I would bet on the OP doing better than you in pretty much any gametype, on the same team or as enemies, any day of the week. Then again, I'm sure the team of mathematicians who came up with trueskill system would disagree in saying that it is not an accurate representation of skill, and who am I to argue about a system where I can't even understand some of the notation and its creators who all have PhDs.

Lol, Halocharts. Any system that rates Rippinheads as the number 1 player in the world is messed up, even more so than trueskill. Actually, go on the MLG website and start trash talking on people for their stats and levels. Sorry, but the people over there have been riding the "level and stats don't matter" horse since Halo 2 came out. Typical of someone in your position to make a statement like that without actually knowing though.

And telling someone they need to play differently because you disagree with their opinion without any elaboration is SO much better. Right. Got it. There is a different between stats and rank, neither of which are a good definition of skill, I was just trying to prove a point in a concise manner using a system that MS says works. Stats like those are useless. How can you even compare two players like us, one who plays ranked at level 50 high in multiple playlists consistently, and another who plays mainly social where you can match up against people who have never even played before? It combines social and ranked stats into one meaningless number. Your sample size for your ranked stats is rather small as well, which would give inaccurate numbers, just like my small sample size for social gives inaccurate numbers.

I recognize where Halo 3 has problems, and they are subtle and very specific.

Really? I think they are broad and glaring.

Posted by: mr 3l1te
I agree with most of this. The aim-assist never really occurred to me as overdone though. I guess it would be better if it was similar to Halo 1's aiming, but you do have to have SOME aim assist. It would be near damn impossible without something.


Agreed, controller joysticks simply do not allow a player to be accurate enough.

  • 09.09.2009 6:51 PM PDT

Posted by: mr 3l1te
I agree with most of this. The aim-assist never really occurred to me as overdone though. I guess it would be better if it was similar to Halo 1's aiming, but you do have to have SOME aim assist. It would be near damn impossible without something.


Aim assist is difficult to judge if you have nothing to base it against. What I mean is, the amount of aim assist that is "too much" is relative to how the weapons and players traits are designed.

When I say, "lower the aim assist" thats in reference to Halo 3, the most recent benchmark. The aim assist is too high for the majority of weapons in Halo 3. Why? Because most of the weapons are bullet-hose, close range weapons that have large reticles and because the player movement and strafe speed is too slow. Weapons like the Assault Rifle, which spits bullets out in a large reticle should not have aim assist. Ever wonder why AR battles usually come down to who shoots first? Its because its so incredibly easy to hit someone with it, due to ridiculous aim assist and slow movement speed. The friggen Rocket Launcher, splash damage machine, has aim assist in Halo 3; that is absolutely ridiculous, and often is much more of a frustration than a benefit.

Halo CE had more aim assist in some cases, but combined with the precise nature of the weapons, as well as the player movement and strafe speed, it worked wonderfully. I think a game like Halo benefits from a small amount of aim assist, while a game like Call of Duty shouldn't have any.

  • 09.10.2009 8:26 AM PDT

Posted by: SS_Crow

Weapon effectiveness is supposed to decrease over a large distance, thats sort of the whole point to the Sniper Rifle.


Yes, weapon effectiveness should decrease over a large distance. Thats not the argument, please understand it before you start trying to interject your limited understanding into the thread.

The argument is that the range should be longer. You said it should decrease over a large distance - I completely agree. A "large distance" for the mid range weapons should not be halfway across the smallest map in the game.

Posted by: SS_Crow
P.S.S. Sounds like you really need to adopt a new play style.


Wow, what an ignorant thing to say. Talk about cop-outs.

Unfortunately the play style I would prefer to adopt is not provided for by the Halo 3 game experience. Instead, I am forced into the same play style as everyone else; the close range spam fest where tactics, quick thinking, and individual skill are of limited value. I'm asking that the game broaden its appeal to accomodate more play-styles that allow both newer and experienced players to feel more rewarded and have more fun playing the game.

[Edited on 09.10.2009 8:34 AM PDT]

  • 09.10.2009 8:33 AM PDT

Posted by: TheBigShow
The argument is that the range should be longer. You said it should decrease over a large distance - I completely agree. A "large distance" for the mid range weapons should not be halfway across the smallest map in the game.



I really don't see how increasing the range of the weapons would solve anything. On smaller maps people would use close-range weapons even more to due the longer range.

  • 09.10.2009 8:54 AM PDT

Posted by: All of humanity
Posted by: TheBigShow
The argument is that the range should be longer. You said it should decrease over a large distance - I completely agree. A "large distance" for the mid range weapons should not be halfway across the smallest map in the game.



I really don't see how increasing the range of the weapons would solve anything. On smaller maps people would use close-range weapons even more to due the longer range.


Increasing the weapon range would open up the gameplay more and allow players to utilize the maps in unique ways. Usually what dictates a players use of a weapon in the map geometry. In close quarters parts of the map, close range weaponry is generally used. When the map is more open, longer range weapon is used. However, in Halo 3, the weapon ranges, aside from the sniper rifle, are laughably short. You can't effectively use any of the common weapons, BR more specifically, on many parts of the map. You are forced to engage at close range because thats the only time you can be effective.

I want the game to allow players to use skill and be able to effectively engage enemies from more parts of the map and force players to think more about their exposure and movement. I'm not asking that it be super easy to kill enemies from far away - it should be very hard to do so, but it should be limited by the players ability, not some arbitrary spread of the weaponry.

  • 09.10.2009 9:22 AM PDT

Posted by: TheBigShow
Increasing the weapon range would open up the gameplay more and allow players to utilize the maps in unique ways. Usually what dictates a players use of a weapon in the map geometry. In close quarters parts of the map, close range weaponry is generally used. When the map is more open, longer range weapon is used. However, in Halo 3, the weapon ranges, aside from the sniper rifle, are laughably short. You can't effectively use any of the common weapons, BR more specifically, on many parts of the map. You are forced to engage at close range because thats the only time you can be effective.

I want the game to allow players to use skill and be able to effectively engage enemies from more parts of the map and force players to think more about their exposure and movement. I'm not asking that it be super easy to kill enemies from far away - it should be very hard to do so, but it should be limited by the players ability, not some arbitrary spread of the weaponry.


So what you're saying is that's it not necessarily the range of the weapon but the size and how the map is configured? Though I partially agree about the lack of range.

  • 09.10.2009 9:37 AM PDT