Halo 2 Forum
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Subject: From a designers point of view -
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Firstly, this is a serious discussion and I dont want people coming into the topic swearing, using text abbreviations or basically being an idiot with no idea of what they're on about.

Ok, on with the topic then - Halo is great, the A.I sets it apart from other games, especially on Legendary, but what do we all want to see the Covenant and Marines do in Halo 2? Also, what about Halo didn't you like and why.

Going from what Halo offered us, I always found it rather perquliar that the Elites didn't carry two weapons like you did. Since you can carry three weapons and duel wield in Halo 2, then I want to see the Elites and Brutes do this too. I also want to see them change weapons and tactics on the fly and react to the situation depending on your current position relevent to them, and what they had in their arsenal, whether it be other Covenant or a certain weapon/vehicle.

An example of this would be if you were in close quater contact with an Elite, and he/she(?) currently carried a needler, then they'd want to change it as soon as possible for a plasma rifle/pistol. The same goes for the marines too.

I'd like the Elites and Brutes to be more forceful with the Grunts and Jackels. Though it was obvious that the Elites were in charge on the battlefiled, you never really saw them work as a unit. No covering fire was ever provided for example so a Jackel , who has a shield mind, could move up onto your position. If a Grunt gets scared, then i want to see a senior Covenant member literally kick him to attention and fight.

On the line of Grunts, they have sharp claws, and in the books it says that they run on all fours. So why in Halo do you never see a Grunt make a break for it a double speed and come clawing at your kneecaps?

The books also state that MC has some form of infrared and or nightvision setting to his suit, so why wasn't his implamented in the game? Way to go to let Metriod Prime steal it guys! Though they did steal the camera for their morph ball from the vehicle camera.

When a Jackel sees you in Halo, they give you about two second to head shot them with a human pistol whilst they shout at you. I'd be much better if they at least either covered their head with their shield, or a random element was brought into play where some part of the body was left exposed.

In Halo on Legendary, the Battle Rifle is completly useless. Over a long distance it's inaccurate, and at close range it's not powerful enough to take off an Elites shield even if a full clip is pumped directly into its face. The only way it could have been improved in Halo, apart from making it the way it is in Halo 2 (which is now perfect) would be to give it a grenade launcher attachment and make it more accurate.

The Hunters are far too easy to take down, we need less time to get that vital shot into their back or chest.

The Ghosts, like the Battle Rifle, are also a complete waste of time. The only use for them is to get from A to B quickly.

My biggest problem with Halo though is the fact that the game is level based. The Halo is one big ring, and although it'd take hours to walk around, it'd give you the feeling that you were on the Halo. It needs to go more of a Metroid Prime way and be totally non linier. If the Cube can do it then the Xbox can too.

I have lots more to add, though my fingers hurt now s I'm going to stop.

The guys at Bungie seem to have ironed out alot of problems, but let me know what you want to see in Halo 2.

Still, water based vehicles would be nice...

  • 07.18.2004 5:55 AM PDT
Subject: On eother thing!
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Why do they Covenant have unlimited ammo? They surely have to try and conserve it in Halo 2, and then change their weapon if they run out.

  • 07.18.2004 5:57 AM PDT
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non -linear would be nice but there is far to much large travel points in the game for it to be like that.

  • 07.18.2004 6:02 AM PDT
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welllll if they didnt have unlimited ammo it would kind of detract from a games feels and playabilty, especially if after a fire fight they all melee rush u or u run out of ammo and cant pick up, i suppose you could add ammo crates and stock point or something like that.

  • 07.18.2004 6:03 AM PDT
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my biggets gripe was not that much flying, because the banshee parts were excellent.

  • 07.18.2004 6:05 AM PDT
Subject: From a designers point of view -

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OK first thing I want to ask is why are you complaining about a 3 year old game? Have you seen better? No? Didn't think so.

And who's to say the elites and grunts and the like aren't carrying a second weapon? I've seen the grunts use Plasma Pistols and Needlers, and I've seen elites use needlers and Plasma rifles.

Until that trick was discovered with the Hunters, they were WAY too hard. And the funny thing is it was in the Demo video on Halo, and STILL no one grabbed onto it for about a year.

The ASSAULT rifle (Not Battle Rifle) Is far from useless if you have the skill to use it, and the Ghost is also included in this statement.

Nightvision, not infrared was built into the suit, and it did make it into the game, try pressing the white button when you are zoomed in... Ahhh works nice huh...

You do have a few valid points, but remember this game is 3 years old, and it's hard to make an experience like that when you're being pushed into launch date.

And Grunts don't run on all fours because their gun is in their hand.

  • 07.18.2004 6:08 AM PDT
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umm gamejunkiejim NV AND thermals WHERE built in the suit. and you can only activate NV on the sniper rifle zoomed in. not that I want thermals or anything but it would be nice to have NV in some of the darker points of the game. and for tha ASSAULT rifle... on legendary it was pretty useless, you could empty a whole clip into an elites face and his shield would still be there. I guess you could melee from there but the elite will probably be pissed from 60 bullets to the face, not reccomended.

[Edited on 7/18/2004 6:16:09 AM]

  • 07.18.2004 6:15 AM PDT

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I have no problems with using the AR on Legendary, If you need a tip, don't hose the trigger, 90%of your shots will either miss or deflect in his armor. Aim for the Elites neck and fire four quick bursts (About 3 shots each) this will take down his shields, then aim at his chest and hose-up, Dead elite, with about 20-25 shots. You guys just need more practice.


And nightvision works with any scoped weapon. Just better with the Sniper Rifle (Wonder why that is? Probably because your target is potentially 5 times farther away.)

And the visor he wore while training had the Thermal, he never had it in The Flood, only in Fall of Reach.

[Edited on 7/18/2004 6:22:03 AM]

  • 07.18.2004 6:18 AM PDT
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LOL GJJ. umm you wanna try that expirament on whatever copy of halo you have, cause I am playing it right now and I just fired 60 solid shots straight into an elites head/neck and every shot hit, shields where still up and I had to melee the guy 2 more times to finish him....

  • 07.18.2004 6:20 AM PDT

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You really must suck...

Quit hosing the trigger man. Burst fire. Hosing is innaccurate.
You are going to die so quick on Halo 2, if you can't figure the first game out man.

I have to go to work, I'll look for the rest of you later.

  • 07.18.2004 6:24 AM PDT
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jeez, stop hating. and to be serious I own halo ok. I have no problem beating it on legendary at all for that matter, its just the AR sucks. and I am not holding the trigger, im firing in bursts (I know how to play the d@mn game) and every shot lands, maybe, MAYBE one or two bullets go stray but no more than that. stop acting like I suck and try yourself.

  • 07.18.2004 6:27 AM PDT

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Just worked on three elites in the Cafeteria on PoA. I've used 3 clips so far, not counting 5 shots with the pistol, and a random Marines grenade killed 3 grunts. I've been using about half a clip on each elite, so maybe closer to 30 bullets. They still die with way less than 60, I wasn't hating, I've just practiced, and I only suggested you did it too. Now if you guys will excuse me, I really have to go to work now...

  • 07.18.2004 6:31 AM PDT
Subject: On other thing!
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MC's mission in the books are extremely linear, with little room for manoveuring in them.... He likes it this was as tehre aren't as many problems to deal with. He gets told what he needs to do, and he damn well does it!

I doubt that non-linearity, while amazing in some games, would be a benefit to this particular game. I suppose though that a city environment such as that shown in the E3 2003 demo, while almost completely scripted, does give a good feeling of being able to go anywhere, so i suppose i would be able to accept that.

Keep to the same formula as Halo and Bungie can't go wrong.

  • 07.18.2004 6:50 AM PDT
Subject: On eother thing!
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the AR wasn't very effective weapon aginst elites but everything else was fare game especially the floods first form the ghost was effective though just not aginst any other veicles besides the human tank.

grunts i want to see run but only in 3 cases if you just killed their comander, 2 if the flood are coming, 3 if they are in a group running to melee you

  • 07.18.2004 6:55 AM PDT
Subject: Eplanation
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Firstly, why use the Assault Rifle (which I called the Battle Rifle to catch out anyone who wasn't seriously posting - congratulations for getting past that one) when the Plasma Rifle is far more accurate over both long and short distances and just as powerful? Proves that the Assault Rifle is practically pointless in carrying. It offers some usefulness against The Flood, well at least more in comparison to the Plasma Rifle, but up against the Pistol and Shotgun it pails in comparison. Put it this way, what weapon would you choose in Multiplayer? Not the Rifle eh?

Secondly, yes you can use Night Vision, but only with a Sniper Rifle and only whilst it's scoped, not with any scoped weapon as you stated. Doesn't work with the Pistol, you just get a flash light. I was saying you should be able to use it any time you like, just like MC can in the books. It'd add new dimensions to the game - Imagine fighting a group of cloaked Elites with Night Vision in the white snow, it'd be a nightmare and far more taxing gameplay wise.

Point number three. Grunts run AWAY from you in Halo when they get scared. If you were going to run away then how would you do it - at half speed or full speed? Would you really care about the weapon in your hand if you were going to run away, and if so then why are you running away - it's not as if you’re going to use it! I'd like to see you not utilise the quick run feature in Halo 2, it's there for a reason.

Point four. If the Ghost is so great, then why is it so easy to take down an Elite in one? They’re sitting ducks. One explosion from a Grenade or Rocket Launcher and they're toast. It's slow, it has poor weapons compared to the Banshee which uses practically the same weapons but with the Plasma Bolt added, and it's hard to handle it tight situations - you usually get some stupid Marine in the way rather then the Covenant, and even when the Covenant do get in the way you cant crush them like you can in the much more effective Warthog because the Ghost hover and the Covenant simply duck underneath it. Its much more effective to fight on foot.

Point five. Bungie said that Halo was going to be big, so they gave us vehicles to get around the place, but then they game the game linear - what was the point of that? Yes it would take a long time to get around the Halo, but I thought that was the point of the vehicles in the first place - to let Halo be big. Yes, MC’s missions both in the book and in the game are linear, but they are in any game. Even if you have a massive expansive world to explore you still have to get from A to B. Halo got from A to B through levels, but it could have been so much more diverse in how it did this.

Point six. If the Covenant didn’t have unlimited ammo then they would have to work as a team much more then they do. It’d give a more realistic squad based feel to the game, which is what Bungie intended. Also, they DON’T carry two weapons at the same time. Yes, Grunts do carry Plasma Pistols and Needlers, but one single Grunt does not change weapons during combat. The same goes for the Elites, who also wield Plasma Rifles though. AND, if they could change weapons during combat then they’d have twice the ammo to try and deal with you. And they would all come and Melee you at the same time, that would be just stupid. If they did work in a team, like I suggested they should both in this post and the original one, then the Elites would send in Grunt or Jackel “skirmishers” to try and flush you out of hiding. Ammo crates simply wouldn’t work, not for the Covenant anyway, and it’s not as if I liked the idea of having health packs for you either. I really thought that it should be your shield and your health, with the shield regenerating itself and if you loose health then tough luck.

Point Seven. Everyone knew how to kill Hunters the first time they met them, the first one I met went down like a sack of spuds. If you didn’t then you simply weren’t paying attention. Even if you hadn’t seem the demo where MC spins round and gets one in the back, it’s obvious what you need to do - just look at the way they stand hunched up in front of you and protect their stomach. It took you a year to figure that one out? I don’t think so.

Point Eight goes to you GameJunkieJim. Yes, the game is three years old, but I wasn’t having a go at it - quite on the contrary, this was simply a discussion on what was wrong and what you wanted. How do you think that Bungie came up with the ideas for Halo 2’s gameplay? Sat around drinking coffee and watching the Simpsons? No. They had meeting and discussed the topic that I tried to discuss here. Unfortunately people seem to think that because they like a game or can play it well that they’re good designers - I said it was a serious discussion and I expected you to read the initial paragraph and enter the discussion properly - not just mouth off about how stupid I was being. And on top of that, you didn’t even back up your statements or add anything of merit. All you did was have a dig at people. No doubt that they’ll be an expletive post given to me now by yourself, but I’d expect no less.

[Edited on 7/18/2004 8:04:11 AM]

  • 07.18.2004 8:03 AM PDT
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in halo 2 if the elites run out of ammo they should kill a grunt and take its weapon

  • 07.18.2004 8:22 AM PDT
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how about they just take his weapon? and then send him runing toward MC to draw him out so he could get a easy shot on him.. I want really good AI but I dont want they AI to be soo good they never miss. I want them to think like a tactician not play like a god....

  • 07.18.2004 8:28 AM PDT
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Thankfully someone wtih some sense. Thats what the Elites, if they were real, would actually do. Of course this depends on whether The Covenant will have unlimited ammo or not, but good thinking non the less!

  • 07.18.2004 8:29 AM PDT
Subject: Explanation

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Well, after your comments I replied and answered all of you critisism, yet had not responce. So, just incase you missed them, here it is. If you want to have a serious debate, then I'm up for that. Enjoy!


Always Sir...

Firstly, why use the Assault Rifle (which I called the Battle Rifle to catch out anyone who wasn't seriously posting - congratulations for getting past that one) when the Plasma Rifle is far more accurate over both long and short distances and just as powerful? Proves that the Assault Rifle is practically pointless in carrying. It offers some usefulness against The Flood, well at least more in comparison to the Plasma Rifle, but up against the Pistol and Shotgun it pails in comparison. Put it this way, what weapon would you choose in Multiplayer? Not the Rifle eh?

Every weapon in the game takes a LOT of practice to truly 'Master'. Some weapons are more forgiving of shot placement than the AR is though. The Plasma Rifle is more powerful against things like energy shields, but the AR is actually marginally more powerful against soft targets. As for DeathMatch, I have three main combos, (although I can use almost any combo, these are the ones I am best with) Sniper Rifle/Shotgun; Plasma Pistol/Assault Rifle; and Pistol/Plasma Rifle. If I'm playing with only Human weapons, I almost invariably use the Pistol or Shotgun with the AR. So that statement isn't quite fair there at the end.

Secondly, yes you can use Night Vision, but only with a Sniper Rifle and only whilst it's scoped, not with any scoped weapon as you stated. Doesn't work with the Pistol, you just get a flash light. I was saying you should be able to use it any time you like, just like MC can in the books. It'd add new dimensions to the game - Imagine fighting a group of cloaked Elites with Night Vision in the white snow, it'd be a nightmare and far more taxing gameplay wise.

Point is conceded. You are quite correct. I don't think I have ever used nightvision myself, I only knew you could do it with the Sniper Rifle, and I assumed you could do the same with the others. Shame on me for assuming. I apologise.

Point number three. Grunts run AWAY from you in Halo when they get scared. If you were going to run away then how would you do it - at half speed or full speed? Would you really care about the weapon in your hand if you were going to run away, and if so then why are you running away - it's not as if you’re going to use it! I'd like to see you not utilise the quick run feature in Halo 2, it's there for a reason.

Half-Conceded. I honestly belive the Grunts are only there for comedic value. If you want a completely hypothetical explanation though, they could be afraid of what their superiors would do to them if they lost the weapon, after all it's basically a Forerunner artifact. I know the explanation is crap, but hey, I had to think of something.. ;-)

Point four. If the Ghost is so great, then why is it so easy to take down an Elite in one? They’re sitting ducks. One explosion from a Grenade or Rocket Launcher and they're toast. It's slow, it has poor weapons compared to the Banshee which uses practically the same weapons but with the Plasma Bolt added, and it's hard to handle it tight situations - you usually get some stupid Marine in the way rather then the Covenant, and even when the Covenant do get in the way you cant crush them like you can in the much more effective Warthog because the Ghost hover and the Covenant simply duck underneath it. Its much more effective to fight on foot.

The Ghost, like anything else in the game, takes practice - and patience. It is a weak vehicle generally speaking, however it is quite a bit faster than the Warthog and the Tank, more manouverable as well. It's balanced for having weak firepower, by being light and extremely agile. With the ability to pop a wheelie and strafe and cut at the same time, the potential for incredible control is there, if you take the necessary practice time to 'Master' it... Simply put, it's a matter of time and skill.

Point five. Bungie said that Halo was going to be big, so they gave us vehicles to get around the place, but then they game the game linear - what was the point of that? Yes it would take a long time to get around the Halo, but I thought that was the point of the vehicles in the first place - to let Halo be big. Yes, MC’s missions both in the book and in the game are linear, but they are in any game. Even if you have a massive expansive world to explore you still have to get from A to B. Halo got from A to B through levels, but it could have been so much more diverse in how it did this.

The point of the vehicles was likely simply to have vehicles. To add another dimension to the game. It was rushed out the door by MicroSoft. The level design of the library shows this.
So maybe the vehicles weren't utilized fully. Point Conceded, and a damn crying shame too.

Point six. If the Covenant didn’t have unlimited ammo then they would have to work as a team much more then they do. It’d give a more realistic squad based feel to the game, which is what Bungie intended. Also, they DON’T carry two weapons at the same time. Yes, Grunts do carry Plasma Pistols and Needlers, but one single Grunt does not change weapons during combat. The same goes for the Elites, who also wield Plasma Rifles though. AND, if they could change weapons during combat then they’d have twice the ammo to try and deal with you. And they would all come and Melee you at the same time, that would be just stupid. If they did work in a team, like I suggested they should both in this post and the original one, then the Elites would send in Grunt or Jackel “skirmishers” to try and flush you out of hiding. Ammo crates simply wouldn’t work, not for the Covenant anyway, and it’s not as if I liked the idea of having health packs for you either. I really thought that it should be your shield and your health, with the shield regenerating itself and if you loose health then tough luck.

I know they don't change weapons in combat. But seriously, why fix something if it's not broke? What I mean to say is, how often would a grunt see you switch your weapon? Usually they are dead beforehand. I want to make something absolutely clear here : I do NOT think they actually carry two weapons, That being said, Is it really farfetched? How many soldiers fight today with two weapons? Less than 30%, and usually the second weapon is a hold-out pistol. You can imagine them having two weapons, and pretend they don't want to switch if it helps. I have to Concede this to you, even though most people missed my point apparently. And by the way - The covenant do NOT have unlimited ammo, I've picked up plenty a Plasma rifle with 75%, 60% all the way down to 30%. I'm going to let one fire at me continuously one day, just do see if they can drop it to 0%, but They may not, so as to give you a weapon to pick up.

Point Seven. Everyone knew how to kill Hunters the first time they met them, the first one I met went down like a sack of spuds. If you didn’t then you simply weren’t paying attention. Even if you hadn’t seem the demo where MC spins round and gets one in the back, it’s obvious what you need to do - just look at the way they stand hunched up in front of you and protect their stomach. It took you a year to figure that one out? I don’t think so.

No it didn't take me a year to figure it out. But several people were still complaining that the Hunters were hard as early as last year, so apparently not everyone pays attention to things that go on around them.


Point Eight goes to you GameJunkieJim. Yes, the game is three years old, but I wasn’t having a go at it - quite on the contrary, this was simply a discussion on what was wrong and what you wanted. How do you think that Bungie came up with the ideas for Halo 2’s gameplay? Sat around drinking coffee and watching the Simpsons? No. They had meeting and discussed the topic that I tried to discuss here. Unfortunately people seem to think that because they like a game or can play it well that they’re good designers - I said it was a serious discussion and I expected you to read the initial paragraph and enter the discussion properly - not just mouth off about how stupid I was being. And on top of that, you didn’t even back up your statements or add anything of merit. All you did was have a dig at people.

Okay I must break this down.
#1 I never called you stupid. I won't call you stupid, on the contrary you are one of the brighter ones on this forum. As a matter of fact in my first post I mentioned that you had a few valid points, please don't detract on me.
#2 I belive this post will back up my statements, and I added nothing of merit, because the whole topic didn't have merit to begin with, there wasn't and there STILL isn't a reason to complain as such about a game that is three years old, especially when it is hands over feet better than almost all of the competition.
#3 I only dug at one person who opened his mouth with an uneducated statement. Please review the post, as he dug at me first, I have been playing this game since launch day, I think I am fairly good at it, and if nothing else, know a little bit about how this game works.

Thank you for inviting me to respond, and may we have some meaningful debates until November 9th. At which time I hopefully will get a chance to spank you (or you spank me) on XBL...

  • 07.21.2004 4:57 PM PDT
Subject: From a designers point of view -
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Unfortunately, this is less of a discussion and more of a debate, in that Matt, you have done little more than dissect and scrutinize Halo - anyone can point out Halo's few faults. Secondly, if you truly meant for this to be a discussion, then perhaps your original post should have supplied a counter argument or at least mention a few things Halo did correctly. By listing everything you feel is wrong with Halo you do little more than create a one-sided, biased argument begging for a counter (effectively supplied by the Junkie).

Obviously, after being presented with a hefty list of what are generally subjective opinions, you've isolated your readers and fellow forum members and essentially forced a confrontation, of sorts. In which case, rather than having a constructive, worthwhile discussion it's become a rudimentary argument. That's not to say that arguments aren't constructive, because when conducted in a respectful and reasonable manner, they most certainly are - kudos on you two for having maintained a rather civil debate - I'm simply pointing out the fact that you came into this looking for a fight, not a discussion .

Furthermore, everyone has ideas and aspects they wish were realized in Halo . Unfortunately, at this point, there's only so much developers can do and while the select few (of course including Bungie) continue to bridge the gap between reality and video games, Halo at the end of the day is that, a video game - in which case the "In real life" argument is easily dismissed.

Now, I've used more than enough words so I'll keep the rest of this simple.

The Assault Rifle (which reminds me, your Battle Rifle 'test' was quite humorous; it's very reminiscent of a "...I meant to do that" response), when used correctly is an extremely effective weapon. Period.

  • 07.21.2004 5:46 PM PDT

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Posted by: p1acebo

The Assault Rifle (which reminds me, your Battle Rifle 'test' was quite humorous; it's very reminiscent of a "...I meant to do that" response), when used correctly is an extremely effective weapon. Period.



ANY weapon is effective if used properly. The learning curve is just steeper with the AR and the Needler. To learn the nuances of each weapons takes months of familiarity.

  • 07.22.2004 8:39 AM PDT
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Sigh, I enjoy the AR quite thourghly on any difficulty below legendary but on legendary its usually more of a hinderance than a help. (I have STILL tried killing a elite with one clip [AOTCR] and have yet to acheive a kill without a punch, except if I spray them in the back)

Maybe I am just a PR fan, i usually like the human weps more than the alien junk but in legendarys case ill take the PR over the AR if I am not going against flood.

And GMJ that "you must really suck" was quite uncalled for, I THOUGHT we where on good terms or something, in the past we have only had friendly debates and the like.

  • 07.22.2004 9:08 AM PDT

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My apologies, I just thought you were getting flip when you said "I'd like to see you try that little experiment --" Or some such similar thing.

I will apologise, and I hope you will accept, as I was also quite puzzled...

  • 07.22.2004 9:15 AM PDT
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use the AR how the marines use it. you know like 4 bullets at a time. it works if ya do it right

  • 07.22.2004 9:24 AM PDT

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