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Subject: ** Theory ** Forerunner Crystal reason for Brutes in ODST

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I have always been critical of bungie keeping Brutes as the main enemy in ODST, and completely disregarding the Elites. It would take days or even weeks time for the Brutes to have arrived, and to push the Elites out of Mombasa. But what if they were not shackled by the limits of time?

0645 hours (approx.), August 30, 2552 -- the Pillar of Autumn leaves Reach for Halo.

0100 hours (approx.), September 19, 2552 - the Pillar of Autumn arrives at Halo.

The time to travel from Reach to Halo was about 20 days.

In Halo: First Strike, we get out first hint at the Brutes replacing the Elites at the Prophets' side, when Tartarus brings Truth three shards of the time-dilating crystal, pieces of a fist-sized crystal housed under Reach which bent the time for the Master Chief (and thus the surrounding region on Halo)...

...making the return trip to the human world last about 20 hours.

"Come closer, Tartarus, and report."
A ripple of shock passed through the Imperial Elite Protectors.
They had never seen such a creature allowed so close to the
Holy Ones.

"Protectors," the Prophet commanded. "Leave us."
Together the three hundred honor guards straightened, bowed,
and filed out of the great chamber. Thy said nothing, but the
Prophet saw the confusion on their features. Good -- such igno-
rance and puzzlement had its uses.

-- Halo: First Strike, page 339


1827 hours, September 22, 2552 -- influenced by the crystal, the Ascendant Justice jumps away from Halo and toward Reach.

0520 hours (approx.), September 23, 2552 -- influenced by the crystal, the Ascendant Justice reaches Reach...


This can not be explained away simply because the Covenant were faster than us -- they weren't that much faster. It took a full 2 weeks (October 20 until November 2) to reach Delta Halo from Earth in Halo 2. The crystal altered space-time once. Why couldn't it happen again?

"It may yet be enough for our purposes... and one more relic
from the Great Ones, as precious as they are, will soon make no
difference to us." The Prophet tucked the container deep in the
folds of his underrobe. "Make sure those pilots who survived are
well rewarded. Then execute them all. Quickly. Quietly."

-- Halo: First Strike, page 340

This was the Prophet of Truth speaking with Tartarus, who had just presented him with the three shards of the time-dilating crystal.

What were the purposes that Truth was speaking about?

I think that the crystal may have been a large part of Truth's plan to replace the Elites with Brutes, especially since a Brute, Tartarus, was the only one allowed so close. The time-dilating effect would allow him to transfer the Brutes to replace the Elites literally everywhere within the Galaxy in a matter of hours to days; he may have employed a shard of the crystal to get his Brutes to Earth at almost the instant that Regret left.

This is the only possibility that I see, as otherwise it would have taken hours to days, maybe even weeks, to replace the Elites on Earth with Brutes, and the flashback missions in ODST would have included Elites rather than Brutes.

Discuss.

[Edited on 06.23.2009 10:45 AM PDT]

  • 06.23.2009 10:40 AM PDT
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Argumentum ad populum

No because it would've taken the whole cystal to work.

I'm pretty sure it was mentioned somewhere. And the Humans aboard the Gettysburg-Ascendant Justice combo ship had the rest.

[Edited on 06.23.2009 10:48 AM PDT]

  • 06.23.2009 10:48 AM PDT

" I will seek vengeance upon those who have betrayed my family, and uncover a conspiracy bigger that I could have imagined. I am Ezio Auditore di Firenze. I am an Assassin"

As you said Elites were better fighters, it's possible that this game does take place during Halo 2 and Halo 3. That would mean that more and more Elites were leaving the Loyalists and joining the Humans. They were all good fighters which ment they had to fight the bigger battle in Space.

  • 06.23.2009 10:51 AM PDT

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Posted by: napster851
No because it would've taken the whole cystal to work.
Truth hints that that's not the case: "It may yet be enough for our purposes..."

I'm pretty sure it was mentioned somewhere. And the Humans aboard the Gettysburg-Ascendant Justice combo ship had the rest.No, the humans aboard (Locklear the ODST) it blew it up with C4 the instant that they entered slipspace. Tartarus reports that most of the shards were lost in "the void" (slipspace) and were thus unrecoverable, but the Covenant pilots recovered 3 shards that were left within real space.

  • 06.23.2009 10:54 AM PDT

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Although I would love the crystal to be the reason (to explain this monumental plothole) I can't see Bungie using such specific Halo-novel fiction to explain it. It's just a little too hardcore for the casual Halo-fan who has never read any of the books.

".....And then there was a Forerunner Crystal that could distort time and stuff......"

But the fact that they are showing ONI in the game suggests they could be opening up the games to the fiction a lot more though. Regardless of that I am still thinking Bungie have got a decent explanation that they are holding onto, they do like their secrets.

  • 06.23.2009 11:07 AM PDT

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I too doubt that it will become an integral part of the plot to the games (as I doubt ODST will deal much with the Covenant side of things), but I think that it could definitely surface in a future novel that delves further into the conflict between Brutes and Elites (maybe a massive frontlines overthrow happened on October 20)

  • 06.23.2009 11:09 AM PDT

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I personally can't see how ODST can work without Elites being in the game at some point. Most Halo-fans don't read the Bungie website, they just play the game a lot, and it would be confusing going back to events of Halo 2 and not seeing Elites but seeing the H3 style Brutes.

They've got to show something regarding the Elites and Brutes.

I am hoping, badly, that ODST will harken back to the days of Halo 1 and Halo 2 with decent 3-way battles. I can imagine Human-Brute-Elite 3-way battles happening in ODST. Bungie seem quite focused on recapturing the H1 feel and for me one of the most important features of H1 was the incredible 3-way battles (often with me just hanging back watching).

  • 06.23.2009 11:16 AM PDT
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Posted by: flamedude
I personally can't see how ODST can work without Elites being in the game at some point. Most Halo-fans don't read the Bungie website, they just play the game a lot, and it would be confusing going back to events of Halo 2 and not seeing Elites but seeing the H3 style Brutes.

They've got to show something regarding the Elites and Brutes.

I am hoping, badly, that ODST will harken back to the days of Halo 1 and Halo 2 with decent 3-way battles. I can imagine Human-Brute-Elite 3-way battles happening in ODST. Bungie seem quite focused on recapturing the H1 feel and for me one of the most important features of H1 was the incredible 3-way battles (often with me just hanging back watching).
Exactly how I feel. Bungie really doesn't seem to love Elites as much as many fans do. It would have made just as much sense, probably even more, to have them as the main enemies for ODST. It worries me to think that they might even retcon Reach, and make us fight Brutes there as well.

  • 06.23.2009 11:18 AM PDT

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That is extremely observant and an amazing idea. But i think thats a little too in depth with the books to be put into a game. Not everyone will understand. And besides, in The Ghosts of Onyx book, Linda, Fred, and Will destroy a scarab in New Mombassa piloted and manned by brutes. So its clear that they were there. And also in the original Halo 2 gameplay trailer New Mombassa was the first level and a whole big group of them attacked Master Chief in the streets. So they were definitely there. In the books and games. =]

  • 06.23.2009 11:27 AM PDT

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I have no doubts Brutes were in New Mombasa. None at all. I just can't see how Elites could suddenly not be there. Just doesn't wash with me.

I would love to see the schism start in New Mombasa with Brutes turning on their Elite superiors. It would be great to see squads of Elites duking it out with Brutes in ODST.

  • 06.23.2009 11:30 AM PDT

Honestly, when I first clicked into this thread, I figured it would be some nonsense theory like the Reach time travel theories. But this actually makes sense. Still, though, I think that even if it's the real explanation Bungie has in mind, it would be too complicated to explain in the context of a campaign the size of ODSTs. It's a really well thought out theory, though, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was pretty accurate.

  • 06.23.2009 11:48 AM PDT

"That beast has a hammer!"

In the traillers, you dont see many brutes, only a lot of grunts. Maybe, during one of the flashbacks, you see brutes fighting elites. The brutes and lower ranks of Covernent might of got hte order that the elites were betraying the prophets, and then they all turned on the elites. Even though they are better fighters, i dont think that they could withstand all of the other Covernant forces atttacking them. Plus the ODST's and Marines too. The main casulties from human fire would have been grunts, because they are always the ones at the front of the fight, so the brutes and other units could of attacked the elites, and the grunts couldve attacked the humans.

That would explain why there are no elites in the trailler.

  • 06.23.2009 12:00 PM PDT

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Maybe you're making it more complicated than it needs to be. The Prophet of Regret, if I can draw an assumption from Halo 2's enemies, favored the Elites to Brutes (since you don't fight them until High Charity, well after your search for Regret is done). Maybe he recalled his Elite troops before the slipspace jump, intentionally leaving the Brutes behind. I mean, the Prophets of Mercy and Regret obviously disagree with Truths methods, and I'm sure Regret had his reasons to be wary of Truth.

Unlikely, but possible.

  • 06.23.2009 12:03 PM PDT
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Iam enjoying Halo Reach and revisiting some past Bungie games, iam a big fan of Bungie and their online community.

I thought they did a lot or forerunner research and excervation.

  • 06.23.2009 12:15 PM PDT

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Posted by: B3NGU1N
In the traillers, you dont see many brutes, only a lot of grunts. Maybe, during one of the flashbacks, you see brutes fighting elites. The brutes and lower ranks of Covernent might of got hte order that the elites were betraying the prophets, and then they all turned on the elites. Even though they are better fighters, i dont think that they could withstand all of the other Covernant forces atttacking them. Plus the ODST's and Marines too. The main casulties from human fire would have been grunts, because they are always the ones at the front of the fight, so the brutes and other units could of attacked the elites, and the grunts couldve attacked the humans.

That would explain why there are no elites in the trailler.
I thought that Bungie said Elites would not be appearing in this game at all (besides H3's MP)?

  • 06.23.2009 5:19 PM PDT

Bungie just doesn't let us fight Elites anymore because we are friends.
Share the love. Don't be hatin.

  • 06.23.2009 5:25 PM PDT

Give a man fire he's warm for a day light a man on fire he's warm for his life.

The odst havlerson shot it.if I recall just after poloski dies.

  • 06.23.2009 5:27 PM PDT

Well the plot hole stands that they are sticking to "all the elites were on the regret's ship when going into slip-space".

Basically, we dont have enough time to code the Ai and movements for elites.

  • 06.23.2009 5:30 PM PDT

I always assumed that the ODSTs had the worst(Best?) luck ever and only get engaged by Brutes... While the Eites were somewhere else fighting someone else...

  • 06.23.2009 5:42 PM PDT

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Posted by: NickNitro1012
The odst havlerson shot it.if I recall just after poloski dies.
At the end Tartarus brings 3 recovered shards (the rest was disintegrated or lost in slipspace) to Truth, who then says "This may yet be enough for our purpose..." after he dismisses all of the Elites in the chamber. I think this is part of his plan to replace the Elites with Brutes.

  • 06.23.2009 5:46 PM PDT
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I dont know.

At that time the elites were supposed to be sworn protectors of the Prophets. Since the prophets were going to evacuate i guess the elites chose to be by their side as well.

At least thats how i see it.

  • 06.23.2009 5:51 PM PDT

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I agree because In Halo: Cole Protocol Regret knows that he is now a burden to Truth but the only reason Truth has him alive is because he can't risk Regret and Mercy to say the secret only they know and purposely allows Regret to get killed by the Master Chief by telling the ships to leave instead of killing the Master Chief and also let's Mercy get infected by the Flood.



Posted by: Darkstar353
Maybe you're making it more complicated than it needs to be. The Prophet of Regret, if I can draw an assumption from Halo 2's enemies, favored the Elites to Brutes (since you don't fight them until High Charity, well after your search for Regret is done). Maybe he recalled his Elite troops before the slipspace jump, intentionally leaving the Brutes behind. I mean, the Prophets of Mercy and Regret obviously disagree with Truths methods, and I'm sure Regret had his reasons to be wary of Truth.

Unlikely, but possible.

  • 06.23.2009 5:55 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Excellent thinking, Cheeh! I have to agree, I've wondered for ages what that crystal could really be, and what Truth could really want with it. As ironic as it is, time travel could really turn out to be the case in this situation.

I have to say, you continue to out-do me, even when you've got to weave your theories around the facts and mine are mainly so far out that they almost can't be disproven.

  • 06.23.2009 7:25 PM PDT

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Posted by: Lord Snakie
Excellent thinking, Cheeh! I have to agree, I've wondered for ages what that crystal could really be, and what Truth could really want with it. As ironic as it is, time travel could really turn out to be the case in this situation.

I have to say, you continue to out-do me, even when you've got to weave your theories around the facts and mine are mainly so far out that they almost can't be disproven.
Thanks for the support, Snakie :)
Though I wouldn't necessarily call time dilation time travel, its just that the closer to the speed of light you go, the slower time around you goes. Maybe the Forerunner found actual FTL travel capabilities?

  • 07.16.2009 10:04 AM PDT
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Posted by: just another fan
Yeah, because we all know that weird guys on youtube always speak the truth.

Posted by: Hot Sauce 147
Posting on bungie.net should require that the user has had to have read a chapter book all the way through.

Yeah I hate how they Brutes are the main enemy. It doesn't fit the story line.

But I don't even think Bungie would think of that idea.

[Edited on 07.16.2009 10:09 AM PDT]

  • 07.16.2009 10:08 AM PDT

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