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Subject: ** Theory ** Forerunner Crystal reason for Brutes in ODST
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RAWR!

i think thats its like this. regret is trying to flee earth wit as many of his soldiers as he can, he knows he cant get them all, so he focuses on his best warriors which are his elites and leaves all the scrubs behind to try and secure the city until truth shows up. also a question for cheeh! i cant find the answer to this question anywhere. how does regret suddenly know where a halo is when he is on earth? i had a theory that that is dares mission was to find out some kind of forerunner device that was on earth that maybe told regret where to go? but maybe you know.

  • 07.16.2009 10:47 AM PDT

Posted by: urk
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Posted by: Darkstar353
Maybe the Prophet of Regret recalled his Elite troops before the slipspace jump, intentionally leaving the Brutes behind.
I honestly think that is a good answer.

Posted by: kruse93
I thought they did a lot or forerunner research and excervation.
That could also explain where all the Brutes have been. Wait, nevermind. Regret's carrier was the first ship over Earth. The fleet's would've still been duking it out by the time In Amber Clad left for Delta Halo.

Brutes suck. They're stupid, hard to kill, and they throw equipment WAY too often (They throw a bubble shield if I so much as blink). All I think they got going for them are Hammer Chieftains, Maulers and Fire Grenades (Brute Shots too, but those things are WAY too deadly on Heroic and Legendary). Having Elites thrown back into the midst would make for much more interesting gameplay, especially if they were fighting the Brutes. I'd love a mission where there's a group of Elites, some Brutes come up and kill them. Later in the mission, you'd see a ridiculous amount of fighting between the groups. That'd be amazing.

Nice theory by the way. Well thought out!

[Edited on 07.16.2009 11:06 AM PDT]

  • 07.16.2009 11:05 AM PDT

Bungie all ready stated the reason for this is because it is Halo 3's engine, it would take to long to get rid of the Brutes or change their armor.

Edit: Brutes in ODST are purely from a development stand point. Bungie can't make everything perfect to the timeline.

/thread.

[Edited on 07.16.2009 11:07 AM PDT]

  • 07.16.2009 11:05 AM PDT

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Another strong theory from Cheehwawa. I love reading stuff like this becuase it actually makes sense of the canon we already know. Good job.

  • 07.16.2009 11:22 AM PDT
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I like your theory alot, but I think it's just that Bungie is just trying to wreck the campaign again.
*puts on flame suit*
As much fun as I had with Halo 3's campaign, it was horrible compared to Halo 2 and Halo:Combat Evolved.The brutes are stupid, annoying enemies.They didn't do anything smart or cool or scary.The elites, however, were fun, smart, tactiful enemies that you wanted to kill because you respected them.Halo 3 was horrible because there was no elites to fight.And the covenant was contradicted from Halo 2, because I haven't seen anyone talk about this yet.In the second game, the grunts and the hunters join the eites.Yet you fight them in Halo 3.....The grunts and the hunters, not the elites....Just, wtf...?But with ODST, as much fun as I will have with all the new, I personally don't think I will enjoy it very much because the old drags it down.When I think of old, I think of the fun old fight elites with a squad of grunts, not old as in stupid ugly brutes and an annoying group of drones.I hope to god that Halo: Reach isn't going to be as big a mistake as ODST seems to be....

*end rant and insults*

Anyways, I really like your theory. :p

  • 07.16.2009 11:57 AM PDT

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Posted by: nuchy
i think thats its like this. regret is trying to flee earth wit as many of his soldiers as he can, he knows he cant get them all, so he focuses on his best warriors which are his elites and leaves all the scrubs behind to try and secure the city until truth shows up. also a question for cheeh! i cant find the answer to this question anywhere. how does regret suddenly know where a halo is when he is on earth? i had a theory that that is dares mission was to find out some kind of forerunner device that was on earth that maybe told regret where to go? but maybe you know.
Was Regret the one who found Halo, or did Truth find it and Regret linked up with him (and the High Charity)? I haven''t played Halo 2 in quite a while.

  • 07.16.2009 8:19 PM PDT

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This has probably been mentioned already, but I'll say it just to make sure. Bungie, in one of their weekly updates a few months ago, gave us a nice little piece of backstory regarding why the Brutes were in ODST but not the elites.

You can go through the weekly updates and find which one if you want, it's worth the read.

  • 07.16.2009 8:22 PM PDT

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Posted by: The Wo1f
This has probably been mentioned already, but I'll say it just to make sure. Bungie, in one of their weekly updates a few months ago, gave us a nice little piece of backstory regarding why the Brutes were in ODST but not the elites.

You can go through the weekly updates and find which one if you want, it's worth the read.
I have read this, but the explanation doesn't sound legit to me unless time dilation is involved... how could the Brutes' fleet have gotten to Earth so quickly (literally moments after Regret left, the flashback missions occur right after the ODSTs land)?

  • 07.16.2009 10:13 PM PDT

Knowledge talks, wisdom listens.

Posted by: x Foman123 x
Actually, I find that I'm more invincible without pants, which is why I am not wearing any at the moment.

Brilliant, even after reading 'First strike' I still hadn't thought of this!

  • 07.16.2009 10:38 PM PDT

Posted by: urk
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The Brutes are probably the worst thing to happen to Halo. Think about it. After their appearance in Halo 2, they're all over the place. Fall of Reach tried to justify it. "They're called Brutes, we've never seen them in combat before." Then they're on Harvest (Contact Harvest), in Halo Wars, and in Mombasa where they weren't before. I love Bungie, but I'd honestly respect if they addressed the Brute vs. Elite thing in ODST. Show through the cutscenes how the Brutes replaced the Elites. Bring in battles between the humans, Elites, and Brutes. Hell, it'd be neat if they made the Elites come in and suddenly become the human's friends in the game. It could be harder to do, but it'd at least make for a better game.

  • 07.16.2009 10:45 PM PDT

(;3=

Posted by: MLG Cheehwawa
I have always been critical of bungie keeping Brutes as the main enemy in ODST, and completely disregarding the Elites. It would take days or even weeks time for the Brutes to have arrived, and to push the Elites out of Mombasa. But what if they were not shackled by the limits of time?

0645 hours (approx.), August 30, 2552 -- the Pillar of Autumn leaves Reach for Halo.

0100 hours (approx.), September 19, 2552 - the Pillar of Autumn arrives at Halo.

The time to travel from Reach to Halo was about 20 days.

In Halo: First Strike, we get out first hint at the Brutes replacing the Elites at the Prophets' side, when Tartarus brings Truth three shards of the time-dilating crystal, pieces of a fist-sized crystal housed under Reach which bent the time for the Master Chief (and thus the surrounding region on Halo)...

...making the return trip to the human world last about 20 hours.

"Come closer, Tartarus, and report."
A ripple of shock passed through the Imperial Elite Protectors.
They had never seen such a creature allowed so close to the
Holy Ones.

"Protectors," the Prophet commanded. "Leave us."
Together the three hundred honor guards straightened, bowed,
and filed out of the great chamber. Thy said nothing, but the
Prophet saw the confusion on their features. Good -- such igno-
rance and puzzlement had its uses.

-- Halo: First Strike, page 339


1827 hours, September 22, 2552 -- influenced by the crystal, the Ascendant Justice jumps away from Halo and toward Reach.

0520 hours (approx.), September 23, 2552 -- influenced by the crystal, the Ascendant Justice reaches Reach...


This can not be explained away simply because the Covenant were faster than us -- they weren't that much faster. It took a full 2 weeks (October 20 until November 2) to reach Delta Halo from Earth in Halo 2. The crystal altered space-time once. Why couldn't it happen again?

"It may yet be enough for our purposes... and one more relic
from the Great Ones, as precious as they are, will soon make no
difference to us." The Prophet tucked the container deep in the
folds of his underrobe. "Make sure those pilots who survived are
well rewarded. Then execute them all. Quickly. Quietly."

-- Halo: First Strike, page 340

This was the Prophet of Truth speaking with Tartarus, who had just presented him with the three shards of the time-dilating crystal.

What were the purposes that Truth was speaking about?

I think that the crystal may have been a large part of Truth's plan to replace the Elites with Brutes, especially since a Brute, Tartarus, was the only one allowed so close. The time-dilating effect would allow him to transfer the Brutes to replace the Elites literally everywhere within the Galaxy in a matter of hours to days; he may have employed a shard of the crystal to get his Brutes to Earth at almost the instant that Regret left.

This is the only possibility that I see, as otherwise it would have taken hours to days, maybe even weeks, to replace the Elites on Earth with Brutes, and the flashback missions in ODST would have included Elites rather than Brutes.

Discuss.


damn its a whole novel but it is a good theory

  • 07.16.2009 10:47 PM PDT

Here’s what Luke had to say about the differences in treatment between the Spartans and Elites in Reach:

“Instead of piece-by-piece customization like the Spartans, Elite customization is a full model swap with models selected from the various Elite classes appearing throughout the Campaign. There are all kinds of reasons for this, not the least of which is our continued emphasis on the Spartan as your identity in Reach.”

With the advent of the Halo 3 campaign, time doesn't have much meaning anymore.

From Halo 2,

when Master Chief was in orbit over Earth
Elites were bad guys
Brutes had no armor
The Arbiter, Miranda Keyes, Sgt. Johnson, and 343 Guilty Spark were on the 2nd Halo, lightyears from the first halo and earth with no obvious form of transportation
Miranda Keyes' ship, the In Amber Clad, was wedged into a Covenant column on the flood infested High Charity.

To Halo 3.
Master chief is in orbit
Elites have an Alliance with the UNSC
The Arbiter, Miranda Keyes, and Sgt. Johnson are not only back on Earth, but they are in active deployment with the UNSC defensive perimeter.
Brute armor

They also have a new frigate, with Guilty Spark inside.

Time went out the window.

[Edited on 07.16.2009 11:31 PM PDT]

  • 07.16.2009 11:30 PM PDT
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Most of that is actually explained in the books. Time is still there, it just requires reading.

  • 07.16.2009 11:40 PM PDT

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Posted by: Uncle Kulikov
With the advent of the Halo 3 campaign, time doesn't have much meaning anymore.

From Halo 2,

when Master Chief was in orbit over Earth
Elites were bad guys
Brutes had no armor
The Arbiter, Miranda Keyes, Sgt. Johnson, and 343 Guilty Spark were on the 2nd Halo, lightyears from the first halo and earth with no obvious form of transportation
Miranda Keyes' ship, the In Amber Clad, was wedged into a Covenant column on the flood infested High Charity.

To Halo 3.
Master chief is in orbit
Elites have an Alliance with the UNSC
The Arbiter, Miranda Keyes, and Sgt. Johnson are not only back on Earth, but they are in active deployment with the UNSC defensive perimeter.
Brute armor

They also have a new frigate, with Guilty Spark inside.

Time went out the window.
October 20 - Regret flees Earth to Halo
November 2 - Battle of Installation 05 begins
November 3 - Battle of Installation 05 ends; Truth flees to Earth
November 8 - Truth arrives in Sol system and Covenant assault other worlds, like Mars
November 17 - Truth enters Earth's atmosphere and Halo3 begins

So there was plenty of time, though the arrival date of the Dreadnaught doesn't make sense, since the Dusk supposedly piggy-backed on November 3 to Earth, and it arrived at Onyx the same day, while the Dreadnaught didn't arrive at Earth for another 5 days...

  • 07.17.2009 11:18 AM PDT

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Posted by: GanonSmash
Honestly, when I first clicked into this thread, I figured it would be some nonsense theory like the Reach time travel theories. But this actually makes sense. Still, though, I think that even if it's the real explanation Bungie has in mind, it would be too complicated to explain in the context of a campaign the size of ODSTs. It's a really well thought out theory, though, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was pretty accurate.
Why would you think that? This guy is the person who most likely guessed the plot for Halo 3 mentioned in previous podcasts....

[Edited on 07.17.2009 11:26 AM PDT]

  • 07.17.2009 11:26 AM PDT

Why couldn't it happen again? Because it got blown up.

The real reason as to why we fight Brutes in ODST is because Bungie were either unable to effectively reintroduce Elites to the game, or were unwilling. There will also be a perfectly reasonable canon reason of course, but it's really because of what I just said.

  • 07.17.2009 11:48 AM PDT

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Posted by: Manbearpig0
Why couldn't it happen again? Because it got blown up.

The real reason as to why we fight Brutes in ODST is because Bungie were either unable to effectively reintroduce Elites to the game, or were unwilling. There will also be a perfectly reasonable canon reason of course, but it's really because of what I just said.
Well that's obvious, but Bungie always bcks up any retcons with canon, and its possible that I have theorized a part of the canon not yet shown to us.

"It may yet be enough for our purposes... and one more relic
from the Great Ones, as precious as they are, will soon make no
difference to us." The Prophet tucked the container deep in the
folds of his underrobe. "Make sure those pilots who survived are
well rewarded. Then execute them all. Quickly. Quietly."

Even though it was blown up, Truth thought that it may still be of use to him; maybe it would allow him to send Brutes to the front-lines within moments of Regret's retreat from Earth to overtake the disordered and battered Elites in Mombasa.

  • 07.17.2009 12:16 PM PDT

I think that the Brutes fit in nice. I can understand there being no Elites in New Mombasa for two reasons. 1. I think that, because Regret had so few ships in his fleet, he would not have wanted to leave them to "invade" Earth. In addition, because he was just finding out about Humanity's prescence on Earth, he probably would have contacted a larger fleet to arrive for help. Because he had so little Elites, he would have taken them with him to head for Delta Halo, and possibly would have left his Brutes to secure certain places. 2. If Regret had indeed left troops to attack Earth, the Elites would have spread out after a while to attack different places, not just New Mombasa. In Ghosts of Onyx, it was said that the Spartans were fighting all over Earth, not just in Africa. Next, since Brutes would probably be there with the Elites, when the time came, they would have killed said Elites and assumed power. 3. Truth was already planning to give the Brutes power and kill the Elites, so he could have sent a few Brute ships with Regret's small fleet to "keep an eye on" Regret, who would have been his major opponent at the time. Therefore, when Regret jumped, the Brutes could have stayed to fight on Earth, or given chase.
Finally, all I have to say about no Elites being in New Mombasa is that when Regret jumped, did anyone else see that massive explosion? Remember how it picked up a Truck and carried it? I do not think an Elite could survive that.

  • 07.17.2009 12:54 PM PDT

"Nothing is True, Everything is Permited."

Posted by: MLG Cheehwawa
Posted by: The Wo1f
This has probably been mentioned already, but I'll say it just to make sure. Bungie, in one of their weekly updates a few months ago, gave us a nice little piece of backstory regarding why the Brutes were in ODST but not the elites.

You can go through the weekly updates and find which one if you want, it's worth the read.
I have read this, but the explanation doesn't sound legit to me unless time dilation is involved... how could the Brutes' fleet have gotten to Earth so quickly (literally moments after Regret left, the flashback missions occur right after the ODSTs land)?



I may have the answer to this.
If you remember in The Fall of Reach The Covenant always sent dropships to the planet while they attempt to destroy their enemies in orbit. They did this at Sigma Octanus IV, and Reach. They may have done it at Harvest too but I haven't read about that anywhere. Does anybody know if they did?

Anyways, I think that the other ships in Regret's fleet were brute occupied, and that they sent their dropships to New Mombassa to find what it was they were looking for(the time distortion crystal shard-thing). This could possibly all take place during the 6 hours that the Rookie is unconcious in his pod just after the Slipspace event.

Edit: That last point in the post above me supports this. The Covenant were "massing beneath the carrier" to escape. Then the brutes come in with their dropships as the dust from the slipspace explosion is settling.

[Edited on 07.17.2009 1:47 PM PDT]

  • 07.17.2009 1:36 PM PDT

Posted by: urk
Eat raw meat.
Punch a bear in the face.


If you don't know who I am, the feeling is mutual.

Remember, the explosion could've killed all the Elites, but it's a big city. Humans like the ODST squad and the marines shown in Dutch's flashback prove that there are survivors. There could've still been Elites in the area.

  • 07.17.2009 1:47 PM PDT

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Posted by: RabidNutCase45
Remember, the explosion could've killed all the Elites, but it's a big city. Humans like the ODST squad and the marines shown in Dutch's flashback prove that there are survivors. There could've still been Elites in the area.
Exactly, I doubt that all of them were killed...

  • 07.18.2009 5:44 PM PDT

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