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  • Subject: Perfect balace before new features
Subject: Perfect balace before new features
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Instead of Bungie adding new things I would rather see them perfect what we already have. Do we really need a game with twice the broken features? I think not. The melee system was terrible, dual wielding, weapon Balance wasn't the best, the ranking system was nowhere as good as in Halo 2, the autoaim is a bit extreme and cheating is a problem.

Melee
The melee system sucked. It is way to overused and way to easy to use. The lunge allows you to actually turn and fly at your opponents, no aim required. The melee system should return to a state similar to Halo CE. Almost no lunge and the more momentum you have the stronger you melee. Each weapon should also have a unique damage dealt, melee speed, animation and reach.

Damage Example:
Standing melee < Running melee < Jumping melee

Weapon Balance
The main problem was weapons either functioned at melee range or at medium to long range. No in betweens, this makes medium to long range weapons, like the battle rifle, too effective because you could use them at all ranges and half the weapons were useless outside of melee range.

Dual Wielding
Dual wielding is the reason most guns have nerfed range. Dual wielding needs to be perfected or removed. Dual wieldable guns should function like a real gun when single wielded, having both accuracy and power. When dual wielded they would retain all firepower but the accuracy, and subsequently the range, would be drastically cut. This would make dual wielding strictly a form of close rang dominance. Here is a thread with a similar concept and a diagram. All weapons would be given decent range with this solution. Even the shotgun would have the Halo CE range.

Ranking System
They should use the Halo 2 Ranking system. It did a great job of separating the noobs and the different skilled players. Maybe they could add to it somehow, something like Halo 3's global experience system just to show your wins.

Autoaim
Its really ridiculous in Halo 3, I understand a little autoaim because this is going to be a console game but damn Halo 3 has a lot. Try betraying a teammate. Hard isn't it? Its also more fun in my opinion. I have actually played a game set to simulate FFA with no autoaim using betrayals. Its much more satisfying to get a kill this way,

Cheating
I have never even been standbyed but I hear stories of cheating. If this is happening Bungie should implement a (better?) anti-cheat system.

These problems should definitely be Bungies priority. My solutions aren't what should be used, they are just suggestions and examples of what could be done. What do you think and what problems/solutions do you propose?

[Edited on 07.03.2009 7:41 PM PDT]

  • 07.03.2009 7:39 PM PDT

',:|

mmk...
I agree with most of this, but i have a few problems...

Melee...
I think a little bit of a lunge would be alright, considering Halo CE was a PC game...
(Please don't ask me to explain that further)
And then i don't think each weapon could have individual damage, considering you can't see your own health, and neither one hit kills (besides swords, etc.) nor half-shield hits seem to fit the bill of a melee.
Weapon Balance...
I think the AR is medium to short range.
BR is best medium to long range.
Everything else is... itself, can't say much about it.
Autoaim...
I do agree that the autoaim could be toned down a little bit, but removed altogether... I can't see that happening. Not on a console game.
Cheating...
Trust me, they are always announcing better and more accurate anti-cheating stuff.
They are working on it

Oh and btw, nice structure in your post, it's almost professional.

[Edited on 07.03.2009 7:58 PM PDT]

  • 07.03.2009 7:57 PM PDT
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Posted by: xLAS3RP01NT3Rx
mmk...
I agree with most of this, but i have a few problems...

Melee...
I think a little bit of a lunge would be alright, considering Halo CE was a PC game...
(Please don't ask me to explain that further)
And then i don't think each weapon could have individual damage, considering you can't see your own health, and neither one hit kills (besides swords, etc.) nor half-shield hits seem to fit the bill of a melee.
Weapon Balance...
I think the AR is medium to short range.
BR is best medium to long range.
Everything else is... itself, can't say much about it.
Autoaim...
I do agree that the autoaim could be toned down a little bit, but removed altogether... I can't see that happening. Not on a console game.
Cheating...
Trust me, they are always announcing better and more accurate anti-cheating stuff.
They are working on it

Oh and btw, nice structure in your post, it's almost professional.

Good feedback but I did say ALMOST no lunge and a LITTLE autoaim is needed because its a console game.

What you said about the AR/BR is 100% Correct. They should be equal at medium range, skill would determine the winner. AR wins at close range and BR wins long range.

  • 07.03.2009 8:03 PM PDT

Oh yeah It's Rayzed.

I really don't mind any of those. I love the satisfying crunch of beating down after a half clip of AR. Heck even a BR beat down is needed sometimes. As for toning down autoaim. I think you're right there. Autoaim is almost all the way autoaim. I can practically just set my reticule on someone and not even have to move my camera, because it'll do it for me.

  • 07.03.2009 8:13 PM PDT

http://achievementgen.info/view.php?ach=22555

I agree somewhat with your melee argument.

The Lunge system is very annoying because it works at random moments and for the better?No.
AR,Shotty, and Maulers get the best of both worlds because they do good damage at close range then can do a flying Chuck Norris Ninja lunge half way across a room thus causing a wtf death.

  • 07.03.2009 8:27 PM PDT
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Posted by: Raylette
I really don't mind any of those. I love the satisfying crunch of beating down after a half clip of AR. Heck even a BR beat down is needed sometimes. As for toning down autoaim. I think you're right there. Autoaim is almost all the way autoaim. I can practically just set my reticule on someone and not even have to move my camera, because it'll do it for me.
I have no problem with Meleeing after spraying with the AR but right know it is just way to easy and convenient. If melee were less determined by a super lunge with amazing lock-on abilities the game would be much better. The satisfaction of shredding someones shields then jumping into them and smashing their brains in is even more satisfying.

  • 07.03.2009 8:47 PM PDT

Ugh...

First on a BWU.. yeah, I'm cool.

ODST;MYTHIC Screenshot winner! One of the first to get their hands on the mythic map pack.

I agree, we need near perfection before we get new features. But near perfection is hard, and no matter what, there will be someone who complains. So new features then patching the problems would be cool I guess.

OR

Just perfect the new features before release :D

  • 07.03.2009 8:52 PM PDT

Posted by: Bullet _ Sponge
Instead of Bungie adding new things I would rather see them perfect what we already have. Do we really need a game with twice the broken features? I think not. The melee system was terrible, dual wielding, weapon Balance wasn't the best, the ranking system was nowhere as good as in Halo 2, the autoaim is a bit extreme and cheating is a problem.
I wouldn't say perfect. I'd say "break" what they "fixed" when they made Halo 2 and improved upon it in Halo 3.

Melee
The melee system sucked. It is way to overused and way to easy to use. The lunge allows you to actually turn and fly at your opponents, no aim required. The melee system should return to a state similar to Halo CE. Almost no lunge and the more momentum you have the stronger you melee. Each weapon should also have a unique damage dealt, melee speed, animation and reach.
I agree 100% with this. The lunge in the melee really is a killjoy for me with this game, and I'm sure many others. Doesn't matter if you're backpedaling, or falling, you just jump forward.

Damage Example:
Standing melee < Running melee < Jumping melee
Perfect.

Weapon Balance
The main problem was weapons either functioned at melee range or at medium to long range. No in betweens, this makes medium to long range weapons, like the battle rifle, too effective because you could use them at all ranges and half the weapons were useless outside of melee range.
The Assault Rifle in Halo 3 is short-medium range, but it often beats out a Battle Rifle at medium range, even against experienced players. But then again, that's the auto-aim. In Halo: CE, there were short range weapons, short-medium range, medium range, medium-long range, and long range weapons. Some of everything, not just a random assortment, with random being literal. In Halo 3, I agree that the weapon balance is way off. Too many short range and long range exclusive weapons. What I'm thinking is, get the base weapons down, one of everything, and work from there.

Dual Wielding
Dual wielding is the reason most guns have nerfed range. Dual wielding needs to be perfected or removed. Dual wieldable guns should function like a real gun when single wielded, having both accuracy and power. When dual wielded they would retain all firepower but the accuracy, and subsequently the range, would be drastically cut. This would make dual wielding strictly a form of close rang dominance. Here is a thread with a similar concept and a diagram. All weapons would be given decent range with this solution. Even the shotgun would have the Halo CE range.
The range changes are completely necessary. Dual-wielding is nearly useless at medium range, and will overpower almost everything at short range. It's yet another exclusive weapon set right now. And by themselves, they're pointless with their low power, and should get more. However, put together, they still need a damage boost added to the higher rounds per minute to counter the inaccuracy.

Ranking System
They should use the Halo 2 Ranking system. It did a great job of separating the noobs and the different skilled players. Maybe they could add to it somehow, something like Halo 3's global experience system just to show your wins.
Eh, sure. I don't like Halo 3's ranking system much.

Autoaim
Its really ridiculous in Halo 3, I understand a little autoaim because this is going to be a console game but damn Halo 3 has a lot. Try betraying a teammate. Hard isn't it? Its also more fun in my opinion. I have actually played a game set to simulate FFA with no autoaim using betrayals. Its much more satisfying to get a kill this way,
Again, 100% agreed. Way too much auto-aim takes away from the feel of the game, and the satisfaction of getting a kill. I like to think of how it would be as a Splazer kill from long range.

Cheating
I have never even been standbyed but I hear stories of cheating. If this is happening Bungie should implement a (better?) anti-cheat system.
They're doing all they can, which is a lot.

These problems should definitely be Bungies priority. My solutions aren't what should be used, they are just suggestions and examples of what could be done. What do you think and what problems/solutions do you propose?Personally, I don't think "perfect balance" is a good goal. I'm aiming for making it work this time around. And fix the spawns.

I find that making larger maps helps a lot. It reduces the chances you'll have someone spawn immediately behind you, and it creates flow around the map. Just like the indicator on a radar screen, with the spawn zones trailing behind it.

  • 07.03.2009 9:07 PM PDT

.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher regard those who think alike than those who think differently.

كل نفس ذائقة الموت

There's no such thing as "perfect balance" because each individual playing the game is going to apply their own bias on their perception of the games balance.

You may think the melee sucks but I disagree. You perceive the devision of weapons by range as an unbalancing feature of the game but I believe it adds an element of skill to the game, namely, situation awareness in which you're required to select the appropriate weapon for the range you intend to encounter an enemy player.

Bungie's weapon designs appear to be based on very carefully considered formulas and the result is an extremely well balanced weapon set. Still, people complain. Not because there's an actual issue with the weapons but because they fail at adapting their play style in a manner that makes the best use of the weapons available.

You can insist that Bungie needs to balance the weapons better but no matter what they do there will always be a group of players insisting that the weapon balance is flawed. I think the worst thing Bungie could do is to stray away from their current succussful formulas in order to try to appease a minority when doing so will only create a new minority set of players with similar complaints.

  • 07.03.2009 9:16 PM PDT
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Posted by: TheCyberFreak
There's no such thing as "perfect balance" because each individual playing the game is going to apply their own bias on their perception of the games balance.

You may think the melee sucks but I disagree. You perceive the devision of weapons by range as an unbalancing feature of the game but I believe it adds an element of skill to the game, namely, situation awareness in which you're required to select the appropriate weapon for the range you intend to encounter an enemy player.

Bungie's weapon designs appear to be based on very carefully considered formulas and the result is an extremely well balanced weapon set. Still, people complain. Not because there's an actual issue with the weapons but because they fail at adapting their play style in a manner that makes the best use of the weapons available.

You can insist that Bungie needs to balance the weapons better but no matter what they do there will always be a group of players insisting that the weapon balance is flawed. I think the worst thing Bungie could do is to stray away from their current succussful formulas in order to try to appease a minority when doing so will only create a new minority set of players with similar complaints.


Situational Awareness? You mean like when a person spawns in a corner and a person at a height advantage out of reach kills you with a medium to long range weapons multiple times. Makes perfect sense.

  • 07.03.2009 9:44 PM PDT
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Posted by: Stevejoe11
Posted by: Bullet _ Sponge
What you said about the AR/BR is 100% Correct. They should be equal at medium range, skill would determine the winner. AR wins at close range and BR wins long range.


No they shouldn't, thats the whole point of having 2 different weapons. AR is complete garbage, it should be removed completely and replaced in all gamemodes with SMG. Its pathetic how in a game that so closely depends on skill would have a gun that requires no skill at all, is way overpowered, and you spawn with it. Whats the point of picking up other weapons when an AR wins at close range every time?


Well in Halo CE weapons had a unique feel to them that gave them different uses. It was worth it to swap out your AR for a plasma rifle even though the AR was stronger. Besides with out all the damn autoaim you would require aim to hit something. Right know holding in the trigger while the autoaim keeps the bullets on your target then rushing and allowing the game's melee lunge to finish of your opponents works. Your blaming the wrong problem for the overpowered AR. If spraying wasn't a viable way to shoot and melee required aim you know have a weapon that requires skill to use.

  • 07.03.2009 9:52 PM PDT

Let there be light, created from fire

I am all i am, i am a team player(when im not pissed), i make great strategies, i will punch you in the face after armor locking, you have to be at sniper distance to not get headshot by my DMR or pistol, wraiths beware, i am DxXOrangesXxD and i am ready to rumble! (When Halo 4 comes out cause Reach is nothing but crap players now)

This is all very well put together, im goign to add this to the features and ideas list im working on, quoted by you ofcourse

  • 07.03.2009 10:02 PM PDT

.
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher regard those who think alike than those who think differently.

كل نفس ذائقة الموت

Posted by: Bullet _ Sponge
Situational Awareness? You mean like when a person spawns in a corner and a person at a height advantage out of reach kills you with a medium to long range weapons multiple times. Makes perfect sense.
If this is a common scenario for you then you have bigger problems than weapon balance. In fact, I would say weapon balance won't play any part for you until you get better at the game.

  • 07.03.2009 10:07 PM PDT

How come I never get the sniper rifle?!
______ ____(˜˜˜||˜˜˜˜||˜˜˜˜˜)_∏______
--------____.`=====.-.~:________\___|================[oo]
|_|||___/___/_/~```|_|_|_|``(o)----------<)

My ROFLsniper goes POW!

If you saw the e3 2003 halo 2 demo. The player killed a brute with what looked like a melee combo. He hit it differently three times quickly, and then once it was on the ground, he shot it twice in the chest. I think that would be cool. =] If you havent seen it look where the brute hijacks the warthog

  • 07.03.2009 10:07 PM PDT
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Posted by: TheCyberFreak
Posted by: Bullet _ Sponge
Situational Awareness? You mean like when a person spawns in a corner and a person at a height advantage out of reach kills you with a medium to long range weapons multiple times. Makes perfect sense.
If this is a common scenario for you then you have bigger problems than weapon balance. In fact, I would say weapon balance won't play any part for you until you get better at the game.

How is player skill involved when one is trapped and unable to attack the enemy back. The lack of range is what allows you to be spawned killed, even if we just spawned with a magnum we would have a shot to fight back.

  • 07.03.2009 10:38 PM PDT