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This topic has moved here: Subject: SCR. The solution to the Halo franchise's starting weapon woes.
  • Subject: SCR. The solution to the Halo franchise's starting weapon woes.
Subject: SCR. The solution to the Halo franchise's starting weapon woes.
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Posted by: Mava665
The problem I think people are having when picturing this weapon is that they think it would be dominant (overpowered). This is exactly the opposite of the truth. You see, in my opinion a good (ideal) starting weapon should feature several key traits. 1. It should be accessible to ALL players. This means it must have ease of use (henceforth it is automatic) while still providing traits that allow more skilled players to use it better (accuracy). 2. It should have only a small zone where it is truly better suited to be used (if one at all) and in all other cases should be at a disadvantage against all other weapons (I.E, it would lose against a AR at close range, and lose against a Sniper or BR at long range). So, it is not overpowered.

3. It is effective at nearly every range, specifically anywhere from close to medium range, and then begins to become less effective at longer ranges, but is still able to disrupt snipers and hit BR....ers. This allows it to have a fighting chance against nearly everything, but makes it only evenly or worsely matched against all other weapons. SO, if you want to fight in a sort of range style (Close, Long) you would have to drop it in favor of said specialty weapons. The thing the weapon the OP describes would do would give you a good fighting chance at all times, and then would usually be replaced for more specialty weapons. I.E, you spawn, find what range weapon you prefer, and drop the starting weapon. Also, I do think that this weapon would need a decent melee lunge, better than the BRs but worse than the ARs. I hope this gun exists. At least in some form.
Excellent post thankyou! That is exactly the idea behind the SCR. Somebody read the entire thing!


Posted by: StormyHeart
The starting weapon cannot give respawning players too much of an edge. How lame is it when you're on the cusp of some crazy Killwhatever, and the enemy team begins spawning near the last guy you're trying to kill? While BUNGiE does need to ensure that spawning players have a chance, we don't want them to hand too much leverage to a weaker team. Skillful, calculated recovery from my mistakes is far more rewarding to me personally as a player than when I change the tide of a battle simply because I spawned near an established player who wasn't looking. I'd rather teamwork and communication change the tide of a battle, not a fortunate respawn combined with an overpowered starting weapon.
Another excellent response. Core gameplay principles FTW.

I just thought i'd add that without a scope, the SCR's bullet magnetism would be less than that of weapons (such as the BR) which do have a scope, when their scopes are used. This is just how Halo 3 works, you can test it for yourself. So, comparing the effectiveness of the BR and the SCR ("Scar") at longer ranges, the BR is most definitely more powerful than the SCR. It has a scope (when used tends to higher accuracy and brings more bullet magnetism), is more powerful (minimum kill time 0.16 seconds less) and is fundamentally easier to approach this minimum kill time (burst fire).

  • 07.13.2009 9:54 AM PDT
Subject: How to make the ideal starting weapon for Halo: Reach's multipl...

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Way too overpowered. It would be the only weapon people would use besides Sniper, Laser, and Energy Sword.

  • 07.13.2009 10:55 AM PDT

lucky member no.999 of SAS Halo3

that description just blew me away but a smaller clip size and just alittle more accurate then the ar this gun would be perfect

  • 07.13.2009 11:03 AM PDT

O hai

Or we could just use a BR. An established, versatile utility weapon that combines head shots with grenades and melees and strafing to make Halo the best possible game. Good try.

  • 07.13.2009 11:16 AM PDT
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This gun would NOT lose to an assault rifle because it can get headshots, which is completely absurd for an automatic weapon. If there was like three guys with no shields, you could just run in spraying bullets and get a triple kill so easily. This gun is whack.

  • 07.13.2009 11:19 AM PDT

u areright he has done what like 5 mins of explaining there or somethin well i think u should have a weapen not bad or to cool but a easy to use close rane to mediam range

  • 07.13.2009 11:33 AM PDT

Posted by: MuffinMan116
This gun would NOT lose to an assault rifle because it can get headshots, which is completely absurd for an automatic weapon. If there was like three guys with no shields, you could just run in spraying bullets and get a triple kill so easily. This gun is whack.
Did you read the post AT ALL? Headshots only apply when shields are down.

BTW: Great post. I just hate how people keep posting "zomg, this wepon iz to strong". It looks like a well designed, great starting weapon.

  • 07.13.2009 11:33 AM PDT
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This is one of the most overpowered things ever described.

  • 07.13.2009 11:39 AM PDT
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Posted by: Phoenix Phire13
Posted by: MuffinMan116
This gun would NOT lose to an assault rifle because it can get headshots, which is completely absurd for an automatic weapon. If there was like three guys with no shields, you could just run in spraying bullets and get a triple kill so easily. This gun is whack.
Did you read the post AT ALL? Headshots only apply when shields are down.

BTW: Great post. I just hate how people keep posting "zomg, this wepon iz to strong". It looks like a well designed, great starting weapon.


Ummm... yes i obviously read the post. DId you read mine? I said,"If there was like three guys with NO SHIELDS..."

  • 07.13.2009 11:40 AM PDT
Subject: SCR in Halo: Reach. The ideal starting weapon.

the idea is alright, it seems that you could just alter the AR to do all of this for halo reach.

it seems however that you are attempting to make a noob weapon. remember the halo 2 sword? of course this weapon seems to me pretty balanced exept the headshot. if it had a headshot, then for it to kill in 2 seconds like you say, it would take two seconds to drain the sheild, then with full auto, it would put a headshot in. this is 12 bullets taking the sheild off and then the 13th would hit the head most of the time with little spread. a br kills by putting in 11 bullets and killing with the 12th as a headshot. this weapon would be an auto 4-shot at close range so the headshot idea is not so good i think.

  • 07.13.2009 11:45 AM PDT
Subject: How to make the ideal starting weapon for Halo: Reach's multipl...

Posted by: MuffinMan116
Posted by: Phoenix Phire13
Posted by: MuffinMan116
This gun would NOT lose to an assault rifle because it can get headshots, which is completely absurd for an automatic weapon. If there was like three guys with no shields, you could just run in spraying bullets and get a triple kill so easily. This gun is whack.
Did you read the post AT ALL? Headshots only apply when shields are down.

BTW: Great post. I just hate how people keep posting "zomg, this wepon iz to strong". It looks like a well designed, great starting weapon.


Ummm... yes i obviously read the post. DId you read mine? I said,"If there was like three guys with NO SHIELDS..."

So, you're saying "hypothetically" that if three people were still alive, with no shields, in a real online match, this one situation makes SCR over powered? Guess what, there little to no chance of that happening. Not only that, there's a weapon that is works in that situation too. It's called the "BR". Which would be even more effective in that situation.

  • 07.13.2009 11:45 AM PDT
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Posted by: Phoenix Phire13
Posted by: MuffinMan116
Posted by: Phoenix Phire13
Posted by: MuffinMan116
This gun would NOT lose to an assault rifle because it can get headshots, which is completely absurd for an automatic weapon. If there was like three guys with no shields, you could just run in spraying bullets and get a triple kill so easily. This gun is whack.
Did you read the post AT ALL? Headshots only apply when shields are down.

BTW: Great post. I just hate how people keep posting "zomg, this wepon iz to strong". It looks like a well designed, great starting weapon.


Ummm... yes i obviously read the post. DId you read mine? I said,"If there was like three guys with NO SHIELDS..."

So, you're saying "hypothetically" that if three people were still alive, with no shields, in a real online match, this one situation makes SCR over powered? Guess what, there little to no chance of that happening. Not only that, there's a weapon that is works in that situation too. It's called the "BR". Which would be even more effective in that situation.


No, the BR would not be more effective at all. The BR is less accurate and takes longer to fire. So in between shots players could find cover or run away or whatever. Depending on the skill level of the player. So any scrub could just run in and start spraying bullets everywhere and chances are their heads will be struck by bullets.

And you obviously don't play enough halo if you've never seen three enemies get their shields taken off by a single grenade. Have you ever played on a map called "Guardian?"

  • 07.13.2009 12:10 PM PDT
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MuffinMan116 you are using an extreme situation to try and claim this weapon is "overpowered." How often does that actually happen? Not to mention the Br would be more effective as it will be easier to land head shots with it.

As for the op. Great post. Well written and though out. I had a similar idea for a starting weapon as well. Seems like you have really hit the nail on the head with this one.

  • 07.13.2009 1:31 PM PDT
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Posted by: MuffinMan116
No, the BR would not be more effective at all. The BR is less accurate and takes longer to fire. So in between shots players could find cover or run away or whatever. Depending on the skill level of the player. So any scrub could just run in and start spraying bullets everywhere and chances are their heads will be struck by bullets.

And you obviously don't play enough halo if you've never seen three enemies get their shields taken off by a single grenade. Have you ever played on a map called "Guardian?"
This is nonsense. Firstly, no, the BR is not more accurate.They would be similarly accurate, implied by the similarly sized reticule and the phrase "in order to more accurately reflect the capable accuracy of the weapon". Secondly, you suppose that players can adjust their reticules from head, to head, to head faster than the BR allows them to fire the three separate bursts (and therefore hindering the speed at which they can gain this "triple kill").

You can make ridiculous claims that "spraying everywhere" with an accurate weapon is likely to award three headshots in quick succession (and indeed quicker than aiming and pulsing the trigger accurately) and that the BR is better than the AR at close range, but we all know it's not true, so why bother?

  • 07.13.2009 1:42 PM PDT
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Posted by: MuffinMan116
Posted by: Phoenix Phire13
Posted by: MuffinMan116
Posted by: Phoenix Phire13
Posted by: MuffinMan116
This gun would NOT lose to an assault rifle because it can get headshots, which is completely absurd for an automatic weapon. If there was like three guys with no shields, you could just run in spraying bullets and get a triple kill so easily. This gun is whack.
Did you read the post AT ALL? Headshots only apply when shields are down.

BTW: Great post. I just hate how people keep posting "zomg, this wepon iz to strong". It looks like a well designed, great starting weapon.


Ummm... yes i obviously read the post. DId you read mine? I said,"If there was like three guys with NO SHIELDS..."

So, you're saying "hypothetically" that if three people were still alive, with no shields, in a real online match, this one situation makes SCR over powered? Guess what, there little to no chance of that happening. Not only that, there's a weapon that is works in that situation too. It's called the "BR". Which would be even more effective in that situation.


No, the BR would not be more effective at all. The BR is less accurate and takes longer to fire. So in between shots players could find cover or run away or whatever. Depending on the skill level of the player. So any scrub could just run in and start spraying bullets everywhere and chances are their heads will be struck by bullets.

And you obviously don't play enough halo if you've never seen three enemies get their shields taken off by a single grenade. Have you ever played on a map called "Guardian?"

That's a horrible example. Truth be told, if you met three shieldless enemies and you had a standard weapon (AR, BR, SMG, Spiker) you would most likely get a triple kill. Furthermore, the chances of you meeting three shieldless enemies in one spot or one after the other is minimal to say the least. Actually, this leads me to one of my biggest gripes with the whole series... why isn't every weapon a headshot weapon? If I shoot someone in the head, then it should do more damage, right? But that's another argument for another day. I do think that maybe it should not be a headshot weapon, but, I wouldn't mind it being one. If it was one, it would reward more skilled players, but, then again, it might make it too powerful.

  • 07.13.2009 1:45 PM PDT

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While it is a nice idea to tackle the starting weapon issues I don't think anything will be a better more balanced starting weapon than the AR or SMG. Although its great to say stuff like "6 rounds a second" and stuff like that saying is a lot different to doing. Weapon balance is one of the most key concepts in the Halo gameplay and adding a new weapon has knock on effects with other weapons. The old rock-paper-scissors effect.

I'm just going to trust that Bungie sorts out a good starting weapon.

  • 07.13.2009 1:55 PM PDT
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Posted by: flamedude
While it is a nice idea to tackle the starting weapon issues I don't think anything will be a better more balanced starting weapon than the AR or SMG. Although its great to say stuff like "6 rounds a second" and stuff like that saying is a lot different to doing. Weapon balance is one of the most key concepts in the Halo gameplay and adding a new weapon has knock on effects with other weapons. The old rock-paper-scissors effect.

I'm just going to trust that Bungie sorts out a good starting weapon.


No way the SMG could be called a viable starting weapon. Its range is way too short. The same can be said about the ar (although that is debatable).

  • 07.13.2009 1:58 PM PDT
Subject: SCR in Halo: Reach. The ideal starting weapon.

Excellent. Nod grows stronger by your victories.

The ideal weapon would need to add depth to the gameplay. I feel that this is accomplished when the weapon is a good base weapon but leaves players still looking to improve their arsenal by allowing them to specialise at certain ranges and situations with other weapons.

For more gameplay depth, players should not respawn with weapons equal to the typical weapons opposing up-players are holding (see: BR spawns). However, unlike AR spawns, players should be able to deal very worrying amounts of damage to these up-players from any range and with some rock solid aim, even take them down upon respawning.

In order to combat spawn killing, the ideal starting weapon would need to be effective at all ranges and be able to deal significant damage, and be able to remove scopes from opposing mid-long range rifles and sniper rifles, at all ranges. The limiting factor would simply be players' aim ability, which would prevent the weapon from being too effective at longer ranges, maintaining the gameplay depth.

For the starting weapon to lend itself better to competitive (see: ranked) games, it should also offer the potential for wide skill gaps to develop with the use of it. Basically, there should be potential for some players to be significantly more potent threats than other players with this weapon.

An ideal starting weapon would also need to accommodate new players. Whilst the weapon would need to offer wide skill gaps, it should also not be too difficult for new players to get to grips with. The player base cannot expect to grow when new players only find overwhelming frustration with tricky starting weapons.

[b]Size: Two-handed


The weapon would not be dual-wieldable. This way, the weapon can be effective alone, in stead of either too ineffective alone and/or too effective when dual-wielded. It avoids the "half weapon" scenario found with the SMG in Halo 2, noted and corrected by Bungie for Halo 3.

Fire Mode: Fully Automatic

Fully Automatic weapons can allow for wider skill-gaps to develop based on players' aim-ability. This is for the simple reason that it is more difficult to maintain accuracy of aim on a moving opponent for the duration of a fight than it is to place your reticule over the opponent only at the instances you pulse the trigger (see: BR). This may seem a weird reality because in the past we have only seen Halo's fully automatic weapons be fairly inaccurate and therefore arguably less skill based (see: used at close range, luck factor from random bullet spread) . This weapon, however, would be very accurate.
Headshots: Instant kill against shield-less opponents only

Giving weapons the ability to get headshots, rewards the players who have better aim ability and therefore allows for a wider skill gap to develop. Although certainly headshots are not appropriate for all weapons, this weapon would suit them perfectly. Generating wider skill gaps from this is only good for the game. Of course, headshots from this weapon should not instantly kill opponents who have full shields like the Sniper Rifle, but only weak players.

Accuracy: Very High

In order to validate a weapon capable of headshots, you need to only have a small amount or zero bullet spread. If there is too much bullet spread, headshots don't work in a competitive sense given that bullets are not sufficiently under the control of the player. Therefore, the purpose of the headshot ability (to reward the player with the more accurate aim) is not fulfilled as two things can too likely occur: the reticule is not centred on the opponents head but a bullet hits it randomly; the bullet is centred on the opponent's head but bullets miss it randomly.

Since the bullet spread would therefore necessarily be minimal, bordering on zero, the size of the reticule should be fairly small in order to more accurately reflect the capable accuracy of the weapon. I would suggest a reticule of roughly, if not exactly, the same size as that of the BR.

I drew up an example of a reticule i think would work here.
(From left to right; BR, AR, SCR.)


In terms of competitive balance, game depth and lovely, wide skill-gaps, a highly accurate starting weapon is ideal. One problem does arise from this though which is that new players may simply struggle to hit the target. At least with less accurate, high rate of fire weapons, new players can expect to damage opponents a decent amount even with their somewhat fumbled aim, thanks to the bullets hitting a wider area.

That's why we have bullet magnetism. There would need to be some bullet magnetism to aid new and casual players since we cannot expect them to be as accurate as us veterans. Bullet magnetism is also necessary in a certain amount regardless of this; in order for the game to function better in an online environment by combating lag and latency.


idea suuuuuux

  • 07.13.2009 1:58 PM PDT
Subject: How to make the ideal starting weapon for Halo: Reach's multipl...

than just call it the Combat Rifle (CR)
Than we have the ABC Rifles :P

Assault Rifle/AR
Battle Rifle/BR
Combat Rifle/CR

  • 07.13.2009 2:43 PM PDT

cool

  • 07.13.2009 4:20 PM PDT

Plekpedia - The most epic site in the history of ever.

Let me post the problem in short:


Very Accurate
Fully Auto-Matic
Good Clip Size
Pretty Fast Reload
Headshots



Do you see the problem now perhaps?

  • 07.13.2009 4:25 PM PDT

Screw the Rules i have Money!

That sounds crazy enough to work...

  • 07.13.2009 4:38 PM PDT

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Full-auto headshots would make it overpowered. Drop a nade to lower 3 people's shields and spray in their general direction. Triple kill, no precision required. No thanks! My idea for a starting weapon:

MA5K Assault Rifle
45 rounds/magazine
10 rounds/second
20 bodyshots/10 headshots to kill
accurate as H2 BR (single shot), accurate as H3 BR (pulsed), accurate as H1 AR (auto)
2x scope

  • 07.13.2009 4:42 PM PDT
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It sounds like a fully automatic Br...

  • 07.13.2009 5:08 PM PDT

Posted by: MLG Cheehwawa
Full-auto headshots would make it overpowered. Drop a nade to lower 3 people's shields and spray in their general direction. Triple kill, no precision required. No thanks! My idea for a starting weapon.
Reposting won't get it anymore noticed, I fear. I have a feeling this guy has conviction in numbers.

I don't know the numbers myself, and that could be a problem. Some people are reading these numbers and are assuming they're faster than everything else. While you do have the numbers for the Battle Rifle and Assault Rifle up, it could help to put other ones. Maybe in a smaller block somehow.

My opinion is that the ability to attain headshots with an automatic weapon is a concern. While ordinary automatic weapons in Halo are not a threat with headshots, a weapon that is highly accurate such as what you propose is a significant danger in specific situations. Do I think that's overpowered? I don't know what to think. But I know that it should at least be looked over thoroughly. This "SCR" is supposed to be the smack-dab-in-the-middle-weapon, with no distinct advantages. Giving it the effective mop-up crew use makes this something unique. Again, I don't know if that's a problem. But I do know it is a concern, since no other weapon can do this.

If nothing else, I'm with Cheehwawa on the name. MA5K is a canon weapon that we know little about that exists and was actively used by the Spartans and UNSC during the Fall of Reach and the proceeding events thereafter on Reach. While SCR is a good "project name" for the weapon, I think MA5K is the better way to go.

  • 07.13.2009 5:09 PM PDT