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This topic has moved here: Subject: Alter/Replace the BR in Halo: Reach Update-7/16/09 New weapons added
  • Subject: Alter/Replace the BR in Halo: Reach Update-7/16/09 New weapons added
Subject: Alter/Replace the BR in Halo: Reach Update-7/16/09 New weapons added

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Posted by: mubox47
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This is not about how good or bad i am at the game, or which gun i prefer. This is for discussing if the BR should be toned down and how, or if it should be removed and what should replace it.

Read the entire OP and all of the replies if you want to post something. If i get asked more questions that were already asked multiple times, i will probably just ignore them.

When i say teh BR is effective at close range, i do not mean very close. I mean right outside the AR's range, in about the pistol's range.



BRs are a major flaw in Halo 3's design. It is a starting weapon that literally anyone can kill with from pretty far distances. Because of it's range and accuracy, it makes all dual wieldable weapons and ARs almost entirely useless. Because it out ranges power weapons like swords and shotguns, the only effective way to use them is camp. Thus, the BR promotes camping.

People claim that the BR is a needed weapon. That is flat out wrong. Halo: Combat Evolved was a fantastic game and it had no BR. It is often said that flag games become annoying with ARs because you cant kill the carrier from a distance, but none of these claims were made in Halo Combat Evolved because we didnt know of an unbalanced starting weapon, besides the pistol. We did just fine with our ARs up until Halo 2.

While CE's M6D was also a mid ranged headshot based weapon, it was used entirely different. It was not a starting weapon in standard slayer, and they were not placed around every corner as the BR now is. In standard slayer the M6D played more like a power weapon then a starting weapon.

In Halo 2, the AR was removed for the SMG, and the Battle Rifle was added. Because the SMGs were dual wieldable and functioned different from an AR, it seemed to be an entire different weapon instead of a new Assault Rifle. With the AR out of the way the BR had a chance at being the new main weapon. It did a decent job because we could not see it's devastating onslaught of other weapons compared to the AR functioning well with them.

With Halo 2 came BR's introduction to MLG. Without the Assault Rifle, the only main weapon to have was the BR, so it became MLG's main weapon. Halo 2 quickly became incredibly popular, and the BR came with it.

Now in Halo 3 MLG has a giant fanbase, and many believe the BR to be the "PRO" weapon over the Asault Rifle, when the truth is the AR never had a chance to shine. The AR returned from Halo CE, but with less ammo. The BR came back with a slight spread. The now weakened AR was slaughtered by the BR in almost every battle, leading people to believe that the AR was bad, instead of the truth that the BR is greatly overpowered. The BR is a favorite of many players because they live under the stereotype that it means they are "good" or "pro", when really it is an easy way to rack up kills.

From looking at nearly anyone's service record you can see the BR as the Tool of Destruction. Why is this? Because if anyone comes up with a close range weapon they are killed before they get the chance to fight. Everyone get's kills with the Battle Rifle because they can. Some great AR user can try to attack, but will get mowed down by a BR "noob" in almost any situation. The only way to counter the BR is to get close. But the BR is still powerful at that range. Three quick bursts then a melee put's the opposing player down. Even though the AR is meant for close range it often ends up "trading" with the BR. Because of this the only logical thing to do is get a more powerful weapon than the BR.

Your weapon choices are now Rocket, Sniper, Sword or Shotgun. People claim Rocket's are for noobs because anyone can kill with them and shotguns and swords are for noobs because of camping. The truth is that players turn to these weapons because the BR practically forces them to. Basically, if you are not good with a BR or sniper you are killed a lot or considered a noob.

Obviously, the BR is the root of all Halo's evil. I have shown you already that it promotes camping and "noob" weapons, but that's not all. When players are not good at the game what do they do? They dont care about winning and jut play for fun. How can you play for fun if a starting weapon dominates everything else? Just screw around. Drive off cliffs, speed around on a mongoose, try to get kills with a pistol, you name it. Any time someone is not trying to play Halo the "right" way, they are a by product of the BR. Any time you see someone killed repeatedly and hae an awful K/D ratio, think to yourself "What weapon was used to kill them so many times?" The BR is likely the answer.

So, the BR has reduced Halo to Brs, snipers, and "noobs." Is that a Halo we want to play? I dont think so. But what can fix this terrible world the BR has made? The answer seems obvious. The AR. It is the perfect starting weapon. It get's the job done without being the main weapon of the game. By scrapping both the BR and the MA5C (Our current Assault Rifle), then bringing back the MA5B (CE's Assault Rifle) Halo would be restored to it's former glory.

But we need a new mid-long range weapon, right? I mean, the BR did have a purpose. . .

Wrong. The BR's range was one of the main reasons it destroyed our beloved game. Another mid-long range weapon would likey also ruin it. To fill the gap left in all the "pro" players' hearts, we do need a new mid range balanced weapon. A new and improved pistol will do just fine.

Take the Halo 3 pistol and slightly improve it. "But that pistol is bad!" Not true. The weapon is good if you know how to use it. Get in range, aim for the head, and fire while strafing away from the enemy's fire. Sounds a lot like a BR right? The only difference is that the pistol did not ruin Halo. The only issue with the pistol is that it's magazine does not hold enough ammo for multiple kills. By increasing the pistols clip size and adding a 1.5X scope, we wouls have a great new mid ranged weapon.

With our MA5Bs and new pistols set to starting weapons, Halo would return to the once great game it was meant to be.


Possible solutions added.

Well, i've come up with a few different solutions. Im taking some ideas from this forum, some from others.

Battle Rifle this would be if we kept the BR, but altered it.
Stats
-Single wield.
-Semi auto.
-X2 Scope.
-4 shot kill.
-36 round magazine
Alterations
-Reduce Damage: Overpowering isn't the exact issue though. The issue is how often it's able to be overpowered.
-Reduce clip size: Battle Rifles last forever, and can get multiple kills before reloading. A 24 round magazine would only allow for 2 kills per reload.
-Increase spread at a a distance: This way, the Battle Rifle would be less powerful at distances, and still operate as it does at medium range.

The rest are for if we remove the BR altogether.

Spartan Combat Pistol (SCR)
Stats
-Single wield.
-semi auto.
-X1.5 scope (the scope is used more for precision then looking across the map.)
-6 headshot kill : 8 body shots.
-12 round magazine.

Scoped MA5C (SMA5C)
Stats
-Single wield.
-Full auto.
-X 1.5 or X2 Scope.
-Same damage and clip size as current Assault Rifle.
-More accurate when shot in bursts.
-When zoomed in, spay-cone becomes larger faster, making a less deadly long range weapon.

Combat Rifle (CR)
Stats
-Single wield.
-Semi auto
-X2 Scope.
-5 Heashot kill : 7-8 body shots.
-10 round magazine.
-Recoils when fired too fast.

Covenant Carbine I think this could use a few slight fixes
Stats
-X2 Scope.
-18 round clip
-6 headshot kill
Alterations
-Clip size reduced to 12
-Decrease accuracy at longer distances.

Weapon Sets.

Weapon set 1.
-BR (toned down version).
-Carbine (toned down version).
-No other changes.

Weapon set 2.
-SMA5B ~ Replaces AR
-SCP ~ Replaces M6G magnum.
-BR Removed.
-Carbine Removed.
-No other changes

Weapon set 3
-SCP ~ Replaces M6G magnum.
-Combat Rifle ~ Replaces Battle Rifle.
-Carbine (toned down version).
-No other changes.


Those all seem pretty reasonable to me. If anyone else has weapon set suggestions, feel free to post them.

[Edited on 07.22.2009 12:45 PM PDT]

  • 07.15.2009 9:10 AM PDT
Subject: Remove the BR from Halo: Reach

/facepalm

  • 07.15.2009 9:11 AM PDT

Challenge me to a Hawaiian Punch chugging contest. I dare you.


Posted by: mubox47
$.50 in store credit.

Posted by: Runic Aries
/facepalm
I guess you did not read my epic post. Or you cant handle the truth.

  • 07.15.2009 9:12 AM PDT

Posted by: Runic Aries
/facepalm

Get out, now!

Nice thread OP. I truly hope Bungie has already thought of this.

  • 07.15.2009 9:15 AM PDT

Posted by: The EAKLE
Posted by: Runic Aries
/facepalm
I guess you did not read my epic post. Or you cant handle the truth.


The reason that people were satisfied with the AR and Pistol in Halo CE was because the Pistol was much more accurate and destructive than it is now, the equivalent of a BR. In halo 2 the BR became popular because the Pistol was less powerful and less accurate, Multiplayer also had an effect on the battle rifle, which wasnt added until Halo 2.

Dont assume everyone who posts is an idiot and that you are awesome.

  • 07.15.2009 9:16 AM PDT

I hunt for the Prophet of Contentment, the San 'Shyumm that murdered my son, and stole his birthright, his Energy Sword. They call our species Heretics. They claim to all that our tongues sting, our words a vile poison that feeds on the unworthy. I have seen the true face of Heresy. The head of a gallant warrior lay on the ground. His neck scorched and blistered, scarred by his own blade. I shall retrieve the weapon, and drive it through that bastard's heart! Punishment for his sins is nigh.

There are many issues with the Halo 3 AR, yes, and I agree that the BR, Carbine, and M6D (Halo CE) pistol ruined the game.

When there is one weapon that you start with that beats everything else, the game gets bland. It has been a common theme in MANY shooters in the past, to start all players with the weakest weapon in the game. And it was better like that, believe me, MUCH better.

  • 07.15.2009 9:16 AM PDT

I agree, starting with something overpowered that not everyone can use creates an unfair advantage, but thats not reason to completely remove something from the game, OP is over reacting, the battle rifle would most likely be tweaked in Reach if it is there because of its influence on Halo 3.

  • 07.15.2009 9:18 AM PDT

Challenge me to a Hawaiian Punch chugging contest. I dare you.


Posted by: mubox47
$.50 in store credit.

Posted by: Runic Aries
Posted by: The EAKLE
Posted by: Runic Aries
/facepalm
I guess you did not read my epic post. Or you cant handle the truth.


The reason that people were satisfied with the AR and Pistol in Halo CE was because the Pistol was much more accurate and destructive than it is now, the equivalent of a BR. In halo 2 the BR became popular because the Pistol was less powerful and less accurate, Multiplayer also had an effect on the battle rifle, which wasnt added until Halo 2.

Dont assume everyone who posts is an idiot and that you are awesome.
Where did i say you were an idiot?

The pistol in CE was also drastically overpowered, and Bungie fixed this. What amazes me is that they toned down a 3 shot weapon, then added a 4 shot weapon. The BR was popular because after players lost one death machine, they gained another.

  • 07.15.2009 9:19 AM PDT

Posted by: Runic Aries
Posted by: The EAKLE
Posted by: Runic Aries
/facepalm
I guess you did not read my epic post. Or you cant handle the truth.


The reason that people were satisfied with the AR and Pistol in Halo CE was because the Pistol was much more accurate and destructive than it is now, the equivalent of a BR. In halo 2 the BR became popular because the Pistol was less powerful and less accurate, Multiplayer also had an effect on the battle rifle, which wasnt added until Halo 2.

Dont assume everyone who posts is an idiot and that you are awesome.

The difference of single shot and burst fire made all the difference. If you think about it, we could just make the BR single shot, reduce it's clip, and it should work like the OP described for a new pistol.

  • 07.15.2009 9:20 AM PDT
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Just because it seems impossible
Does not mean it is not right.

I personally like having the BR and I highly doubt that Bungie would remove a gun that Most people on Halo 3,2 use.

  • 07.15.2009 9:26 AM PDT

Challenge me to a Hawaiian Punch chugging contest. I dare you.


Posted by: mubox47
$.50 in store credit.

Posted by: chargersfan2
I personally like having the BR and I highly doubt that Bungie would remove a gun that Most people on Halo 3,2 use.
That's the main reason i think ti should be removed. It is a powerful, useful, starting weapon that nearly everyone uses. In a game of AR starts many people rush to pick up battle rifles. In a game of BR starts most people dont pick up anything but power weapons. It's the near perfect weapon, and something should be done about it. Halo 3 is a fantastic game, but it seems that you see BRs way too much.

My suggestion would give us useful, yet much less powerful starting weapons. People would be encouraged to pick up better weapons, but they wouldn't be powerless against things like spawn camping. It seems to be a much better system to me.

  • 07.15.2009 9:34 AM PDT

Posted by: The EAKLE
Posted by: chargersfan2
I personally like having the BR and I highly doubt that Bungie would remove a gun that Most people on Halo 3,2 use.
That's the main reason i think ti should be removed. It is a powerful, useful, starting weapon that nearly everyone uses. In a game of AR starts many people rush to pick up battle rifles. In a game of BR starts most people dont pick up anything but power weapons. It's the near perfect weapon, and something should be done about it. Halo 3 is a fantastic game, but it seems that you see BRs way too much.

My suggestion would give us useful, yet much less powerful starting weapons. People would be encouraged to pick up better weapons, but they wouldn't be powerless against things like spawn camping. It seems to be a much better system to me.


So you want something removed because alot of people use it...
People pick up BRs simply because they are a descent mid-long range weapon where the AR can only do short range and the starting pistol is inaccurate and weak, where they have instant kill weapons like shotguns or swords which serve this purpose better.

  • 07.15.2009 9:40 AM PDT

The Ghosts of Onyx - Retired Staff

If Bungie were to stick with their own fiction (which I'm sure they will), this will not even be an issue. The BR did not exist in Halo: CE, therefore how could it possibly exist in a prequel? It wouldn't make any sense at all. "Oh, yeah, it is in the past, but it has weapons from the future..."

No, Bungie is much smarter than that.

And I'm sure someone will be like: "Well, in First Strike the Spartans that survived the Battle of Reach got BRs." And that is the point. The Spartans that made it through the Battle of Reach, the ones that the Master Chief helped rescue, didn't get the BR prototypes until after the story that Halo: Reach will tell, after the Pillar of Autumn arrived at the first Halo, after Reach had already been glassed and the battle lost.

So, for two reasons (other than the very accurate reasons given by the OP) the BR should not be in Reach.
1) It wasn't in Halo: CE.
2) It wasn't in use by the UNSC until after Reach according to the fiction.

If the BR is included in Reach, I will be extremely disappointed.

  • 07.15.2009 9:51 AM PDT

Challenge me to a Hawaiian Punch chugging contest. I dare you.


Posted by: mubox47
$.50 in store credit.

Posted by: Runic Aries
Posted by: The EAKLE
Posted by: chargersfan2
I personally like having the BR and I highly doubt that Bungie would remove a gun that Most people on Halo 3,2 use.
That's the main reason i think ti should be removed. It is a powerful, useful, starting weapon that nearly everyone uses. In a game of AR starts many people rush to pick up battle rifles. In a game of BR starts most people dont pick up anything but power weapons. It's the near perfect weapon, and something should be done about it. Halo 3 is a fantastic game, but it seems that you see BRs way too much.

My suggestion would give us useful, yet much less powerful starting weapons. People would be encouraged to pick up better weapons, but they wouldn't be powerless against things like spawn camping. It seems to be a much better system to me.


So you want something removed because alot of people use it...
People pick up BRs simply because they are a descent mid-long range weapon where the AR can only do short range and the starting pistol is inaccurate and weak, where they have instant kill weapons like shotguns or swords which serve this purpose better.
I want it removed because a lot of people use it all the time. If Team Slayer comes up people shout "Veto for BRs!" If they end up playing TS they rush to grab BRs. MLG, SWAT, and SB are all BR playlists.

BRs appear very often, end they defeat the purpose of half the weapons. Longer range than all dual wield weapons and way more accurate, faster firing than snipers and rockets, and longer range than shotguns and swords. It is a fantastic weapon, and is useful in almost every situation. I think that is a bad thing.

I dont like the idea behind the BR. An accurate, mid-long range starting weapon that fires faster then some weapons and is more powerful than most. The entire concept seems a little broken to me. Whats the point of the AR is it's good against most dual wields, but weak to the BR? It seems useful in some ways, yet the BR is useful in almost every way.

BRs are given to both teams so it's not uneven, but if everyone has a BR there is almost nothing else besides power weapons used in the game. BRs are everywhere. Not a single map has no BR. Halo 3 is a great game, but it seems a little redundant. After a while, it seems to get more redundant. In the low ranks everone user BRs because they are given to them, or because they are easy to kill with. In the higher ranks BRs seem to be all that's used because that's what the other team is using, and you need something that evens out with them.

Like i said, the BR is even deadly at close range. Three shots and a beat down or four headshots. That's all it takes to kill. The AR is a close range weapon, but is still often defeated by a BR at close range ( or the players beat each other down). There is almost no point to a close range weapon if te mid-long range weapon beats it at nearly everything.

  • 07.15.2009 9:55 AM PDT

I'll read and have a more detailed post later, but for now, I'll just say that if the BR is removed, another weapon that fills the same role will rise up and fill it's place. I think Bungie has noted about the adaptabillity of the BR and will fix it in the next game so casual players can beat the BR at close range without needing to become close quarter combat masters.

  • 07.15.2009 9:56 AM PDT

Challenge me to a Hawaiian Punch chugging contest. I dare you.


Posted by: mubox47
$.50 in store credit.

Posted by: ABotelho
Posted by: Runic Aries
Posted by: The EAKLE
Posted by: Runic Aries
/facepalm
I guess you did not read my epic post. Or you cant handle the truth.


The reason that people were satisfied with the AR and Pistol in Halo CE was because the Pistol was much more accurate and destructive than it is now, the equivalent of a BR. In halo 2 the BR became popular because the Pistol was less powerful and less accurate, Multiplayer also had an effect on the battle rifle, which wasnt added until Halo 2.

Dont assume everyone who posts is an idiot and that you are awesome.

The difference of single shot and burst fire made all the difference. If you think about it, we could just make the BR single shot, reduce it's clip, and it should work like the OP described for a new pistol.
It could work, but i prefer pistols.

Another possible idea i had was give teh BR a smaller clip, a better scope, and amkeit a power weapon. I doubt it would play well though.

  • 07.15.2009 10:07 AM PDT
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the BR is the best halo weapon in halo games it kills everything!

  • 07.15.2009 10:07 AM PDT

Challenge me to a Hawaiian Punch chugging contest. I dare you.


Posted by: mubox47
$.50 in store credit.

Posted by: ThEhUrRiCaNe
the BR is the best halo weapon in halo games it kills everything!
Im not sure if that means you're for or against this, but that's exactly my point. It is possibly the best weapon, and makes many others useless.

  • 07.15.2009 10:24 AM PDT

The Ghosts of Onyx - Retired Staff

Posted by: The EAKLE
Posted by: ThEhUrRiCaNe
the BR is the best halo weapon in halo games it kills everything!
Im not sure if that means you're for or against this, but that's exactly my point. It is possibly the best weapon, and makes many others useless.

Yeah, you definitely just reinforced one of the reasons why there shouldn't be a BR in Reach. Because any spastic little child can pick one up and kill anyone that does not have a BR. There is absolutely no balance except giving everyone a BR, and, as EAKLE has pointed out, that just means all the other more balanced weapons will sit there and gather dust.

  • 07.15.2009 10:40 AM PDT

Clearly because the desktop uses a 3 prong plug and a laptop uses a 2 prong plug, the microwave will fill your car with tostitos better

Too be honest, I think your kind of taking things about Halo gameplay the wrong way. In fact some parts about the OP are just flat out wrong. IMO, its not the BR that's causing problems with gameplay, its the pace of the game itself as well as limited options to counter the BR on most maps.

Something does need to change though. Personally I would go the other way and say they need to make all weapons slightly stronger or at least increase their functionality in some other way (greater range, higher rate of fire, more damage) while slightly tweaking the BR. I'm not against the BR being removed, but something needs to fill the void of mid range weapon because it leaves a power vacuum that will obliterate traditional Halo gameplay.

  • 07.15.2009 10:43 AM PDT

I am of an open mind and I am willing to hear criticism. Also: That's stupid and you're stupid.

I wouldn't mind the BR still being in Multiplayer, just not as a main weapon in every playlist other than the "Hardcore" playlists.

With the SMG starts, there were so many different strategic options to choose from, hunt down power weapons, dual weild, find other weapons to help you from a pistol to a needler, and more. With the BR starts, you never needed to get another weapon unless it was a power weapon, giving the other weapons no spotlight.

  • 07.15.2009 10:44 AM PDT

Challenge me to a Hawaiian Punch chugging contest. I dare you.


Posted by: mubox47
$.50 in store credit.

Posted by: Xx Mr Bill xX
Too be honest, I think your kind of taking things about Halo gameplay the wrong way. In fact some parts about the OP are just flat out wrong. IMO, its not the BR that's causing problems with gameplay, its the pace of the game itself as well as limited options to counter the BR on most maps.

Something does need to change though. Personally I would go the other way and say they need to make all weapons slightly stronger or at least increase their functionality in some other way (greater range, higher rate of fire, more damage) while slightly tweaking the BR. I'm not against the BR being removed, but something needs to fill the void of mid range weapon because it leaves a power vacuum that will obliterate traditional Halo gameplay.
Some of that stuff was a bit of a joke, like the BR being the root of all evil, but there is a point to it. The BR does effect all of Halo's gameplay because it's on every map, and it does effect it negatively at times.

You might be on to something with the "not enough BR counters" thing. However, in the BR's current state the only counters are more BRs and power weapons. If the BR was weakened, and maybe if the pistol was a little stronger, it could be much more balanced.

  • 07.15.2009 10:49 AM PDT

The Ghosts of Onyx - Retired Staff

There really is no way to make the fans happy by keeping the BR and "balancing" it by changing it again. Altering the BR like they did from Halo 2 to Halo 3 did make it a bit less powerful, but it was still way over powered. The only thing that is better is a Carbine, but only if you are an incredible shot, at which point you would just use a Sniper Rifle. I agree there needs to be something to counter the Sniper, but then there needs to be something to counter that. Say, a scoped pistol with .50 caliber high explosive rounds.

Oh wait.....

But in all seriousness, either lose the BR to match the timeline, or keep it, nerf it a bit more, and give us back the pistol to shut up anyone who will inevitably start crying about how the BR is worthless and Bungie is -blam!-. Actually, you can't prevent that.

  • 07.15.2009 10:55 AM PDT

Clearly because the desktop uses a 3 prong plug and a laptop uses a 2 prong plug, the microwave will fill your car with tostitos better

Posted by: The EAKLE
Posted by: Xx Mr Bill xX
Too be honest, I think your kind of taking things about Halo gameplay the wrong way. In fact some parts about the OP are just flat out wrong. IMO, its not the BR that's causing problems with gameplay, its the pace of the game itself as well as limited options to counter the BR on most maps.

Something does need to change though. Personally I would go the other way and say they need to make all weapons slightly stronger or at least increase their functionality in some other way (greater range, higher rate of fire, more damage) while slightly tweaking the BR. I'm not against the BR being removed, but something needs to fill the void of mid range weapon because it leaves a power vacuum that will obliterate traditional Halo gameplay.
Some of that stuff was a bit of a joke, like the BR being the root of all evil, but there is a point to it. The BR does effect all of Halo's gameplay because it's on every map, and it does effect it negatively at times.

You might be on to something with the "not enough BR counters" thing. However, in the BR's current state the only counters are more BRs and power weapons. If the BR was weakened, and maybe if the pistol was a little stronger, it could be much more balanced.


I figured some of it was just jokes and all, and I would have written a slightly more in depth response but I'm using a college computer and not paying attention in class and my professor is staring at me. Or maybe that's his lazy eye, I can never tell. Either way, when I get home I have a few things that I agree and somewhat disagree with that I feel the urge to comment on.

  • 07.15.2009 10:57 AM PDT
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I think they should just make changes or 'tweaks' to the weapon. Not obliterate it from the game altogether. It wouldn't make sense either because in the cover of Contact Harvest it clearly shows the Sergeant Johnson wielding the Battle Rifle in his tightly gripped, black masculine hands.

Bungie could make it weaker and make the BR from a three-shot-burst to a single-shot, as we saw in Halo 2's E3 Demo.

  • 07.15.2009 11:08 AM PDT