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Subject: How are you supposed to fit natal into a fps???
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just for cinamatics or the whole game that would suck blow and swallow

  • 07.18.2009 8:01 PM PDT

"I blame canser its going slutting itself around now so are bodys act like were aging faster stupid whore of a desies" ~ GruntX

Chances are that if Natal is employed at all, it would be only for brief, low-intensity sections of the game. Examples might be interactive cutscenes or minigames/puzzles.

  • 07.18.2009 8:08 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Wow Bungie let you play Reach with natal before it came out? I am just assuming this because you sound so sure with your statement.

Besides, what makes you feel so horrible about natal being incorporated into an fps?

[Edited on 07.18.2009 8:10 PM PDT]

  • 07.18.2009 8:09 PM PDT
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Posted by: P3P5I
Wow Bungie let you play Reach with natal before it came out? I am just assuming this because you sound so sure with your statement.

Besides, what makes you feel so horrible about natal being incorporated into an fps?
one HUGE flaw how to turn around?

  • 07.18.2009 8:12 PM PDT

"I blame canser its going slutting itself around now so are bodys act like were aging faster stupid whore of a desies" ~ GruntX

Posted by: P3P5I
Wow Bungie let you play Reach with natal before it came out? I am just assuming this because you sound so sure with your statement.

Besides, what makes you feel so horrible about natal being incorporated into an fps?

I'm going out on a limb, here, but it seems that he has qualms specifically about Natal being used to move throughout the environment, aim and fire weapons, switch between inventory, etc. (and rightfully so).

Natal simply can't be expected to perform all those functions, or even a select few of them, with 100% accuracy. In a game where accuracy is pretty much the essence of its core gameplay mechanic (i.e. shooting), that would be undesirable, indeed.

  • 07.18.2009 8:17 PM PDT
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The circle is now complete.

Posted by: KneeChee27
Chances are that if Natal is employed at all, it would be only for brief, low-intensity sections of the game. Examples might be interactive cutscenes or minigames/puzzles.

And thus making it useless.

People are blowing this Natal way out of proportion.

As I recall from the Natal discussion at E3, the creator said it wasn't anywhere near completion.

Hardly enough of time to finish, implement into a new (major) game, and test.

This can only lead me to believe that it will NOT be in Halo: Reach and probably won't be in any game any time soon.

Not only that, but there really is no purpose of having a motion-sensing device in a game where it would be practically useless. A fast paced game like Halo is too demanding of such a thing.

[Edited on 07.18.2009 8:20 PM PDT]

  • 07.18.2009 8:18 PM PDT
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As you progress throughout your life you realize that the older you get the closer your are to death, the only thing you cannot change.

They may have an option to turn Natal on or something

  • 07.18.2009 8:22 PM PDT
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Some magazine (names escapes me) was told by bungie that they received a natal prototype i think it my go with the cutscenes like when Dr haesley flips the coin you have to catch it

  • 07.18.2009 8:24 PM PDT
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The circle is now complete.

Posted by: Gdude
They may have an option to turn Natal on or something

That would be a complete waste of resources. Implementing something that would require alot of time and testing for it simply to be an option.

[Edited on 07.18.2009 8:26 PM PDT]

  • 07.18.2009 8:25 PM PDT

"I blame canser its going slutting itself around now so are bodys act like were aging faster stupid whore of a desies" ~ GruntX

Posted by: SR2O
Posted by: KneeChee27
Chances are that if Natal is employed at all, it would be only for brief, low-intensity sections of the game. Examples might be interactive cutscenes or minigames/puzzles.

And thus making it useless.

Assuming that Halo incorporates fast-paced, first-person shooting action alone, and nothing else.

People are blowing this Natal way out of proportion.
Very much so.

As I recall from the Natal discussion at E3, the creator said it wasn't anywhere near completion.
That's actually incorrect. Natal is complete and multiple development kits for the device have already been dispersed to major software studios around the globe.

Hardly enough of time to finish, implement into a new (major) game, and test.
That really depends on how it is implemented, if at all.

Not only that, but there really is no purpose of having a motion-sensing device in a game where it would be practically useless. A fast paced game like Halo is too demanding of such a thing.
I can actually imagine Natal being implemented in a scenario similar to when players interacted with the terminals in Halo 3 -- non-essential components to gameplay.

  • 07.18.2009 8:30 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: KneeChee27
I'm going out on a limb, here, but it seems that he has qualms specifically about Natal being used to move throughout the environment, aim and fire weapons, switch between inventory, etc. (and rightfully so).

Natal simply can't be expected to perform all those functions, or even a select few of them, with 100% accuracy. In a game where accuracy is pretty much the essence of its core gameplay mechanic (i.e. shooting), that would be undesirable, indeed.


I understand what you're saying. Natal can't make players hold their crosshairs over targets forever like controllers (assuming Reach implements full UI). What I odn't understand about the above paragraph is how it's not possible. Here's my solution to your problems:

1) Aiming- I don't understand this, I guess you would hold up your weapon.
2)Turning- This is a small problem that shouldn't be the spearhead for the anti-natal argument. Solution, just have small motions translated into magnified motions on the game. Example, turn yourself 30 degrees and your player will continuously turn until you point forward again.
3) Movement- Another small problem. Have a "hotspot" on your floor and if you move between the hotspot and your television then your character moves forward until you move back to that hotspot.
4) Switching inventory- My guess would be to reach for your back like you're going to scratch it (simulating taking heavy weapons off your back). For smaller weapons holstered on your hip, simply reach for your hip.

I don't agree with your opinion that accuracy is the essence of the game. In fact, I think immersion is what makes games good. Making yourself feel like you are in the game (Why we will never see MC's face). I believe that Natal could revolutionize games and pave the way for future virtual reality technology. I believe Natal could permanently change the words "competitive play."

[Edited on 07.18.2009 8:35 PM PDT]

  • 07.18.2009 8:31 PM PDT

"I blame canser its going slutting itself around now so are bodys act like were aging faster stupid whore of a desies" ~ GruntX

Posted by: P3P5I
Posted by: KneeChee27
I'm going out on a limb, here, but it seems that he has qualms specifically about Natal being used to move throughout the environment, aim and fire weapons, switch between inventory, etc. (and rightfully so).

Natal simply can't be expected to perform all those functions, or even a select few of them, with 100% accuracy. In a game where accuracy is pretty much the essence of its core gameplay mechanic (i.e. shooting), that would be undesirable, indeed.


I understand what you're saying. Natal can't make players hold their crosshairs over targets forever like controllers (assuming Reach implements full UI). What I odn't understand about the above paragraph is how it's not possible. Here's my solution to your problems:

1) Aiming- I don't understand this, I guess you would hold up your weapon.
2)Turning- This is a small problem that shouldn't be the spearhead for the anti-natal argument. Solution, just have small motions translated into magnified motions on the game. Example, turn yourself 30 degrees and your player will continuously turn until you point forward again.
3) Movement- Another small problem. Have a "hotspot" on your floor and if you move between the hotspot and your television then your character moves forward until you move back to that hotspot.
4) Switching inventory- My guess would be to reach for your back like you're going to scratch it (simulating taking heavy weapons off your back). For smaller weapons holstered on your hip, simply reach for your hip.

I don't agree with your opinion that accuracy is the essence of the game. In fact, I think immersion is what makes games good. Making yourself feel like you are in the game (Why we will never see MC's face). I believe that Natal could revolutionize games and pave the way for future virtual reality technology.

The problem, I'm afraid, is that Natal can't do any of what you're proposing. It's simply a technological impossibility.

What most people are unaware of is that 3D motion capture technology is very finicky. Development studios that focus on 3D motion capture, and nothing else, can spend upwards of $100,000 for a 3D motion capture rig.

These studios have large, open spaces dedicated only to recording and animating. The walls and floors are plastered with highly reflective paper -- often coated in microscopic glass beads. Anywhere from 8 to 18 cameras are placed strategically around the recording area to fully capture the movement being performed. The room is then lit in such a manner than light is being reflected directly off the surrounding walls and floor into their respective cameras. On top of that, some studios make use of infrared cameras to measure distance in all three dimensions.

The use of highly reflective materials is for the purpose of aiding the camera in determining the difference between actors in the scene and the scene itself. The environment is made to perfectly reflect light so that the cameras can differentiate between white (the scene) and black (actors, foreign objects or scenery, and virtually anything else in the scene). Even with this setup, actors limbs are often confused with the background, sometimes their entire body getting mistaken by the capture equipment as being part of the scene itself.

If you need an example of what I'm talking about, look no further than the actual E3 presentation footage for Natal. Specifically, this infamous scene. Pay attention to the avatar's legs and arms. Notice how they begin to flip and jitter unnaturally. That's the device losing sight of the actor's limbs, and it happens quite frequently in motion capture studios.

If it weren't for the avatar's model being rigged with IK handles (IK stands for Inverse Kinematics), the avatar's legs and arms would have just floated off into 3D space. This brings me to my next point, which is that Natal's major function isn't to trace movement accurately, but to get a gist of movement and then make an educated guess as to what is actually being conveyed.

While that works for simple games, where an educated guess is enough, games like Halo, where your player is constantly moving, running, ducking, aiming, switching weapons (both on the ground and in one's inventory), etc. assumptions can be the difference between the player's life and death. To implement Natal for something like that would be ill advised.

  • 07.18.2009 8:58 PM PDT

Posted by: Tetsuro1482516
just for cinamatics or the whole game that would suck blow and swallow


hey ur a dumbass and ill tell u why! first, most likely ull still b holding a controller. second, the only motions would probably be like throwing grenades or moving ur eyes to move the camera around and third, these people arent stupid halo: reach will b great! sorry about the dumbass thing lol

  • 07.18.2009 9:56 PM PDT

I think what people haven't realized is that the motion part of Natal doesn't need to be used for actual gameplay.

Screw headsets, Natal has a microphone built into it right? If its good enough quality for the thing to recognize people voices, you could probably use that instead.

Want to mute a certain player? Just call out his service tag and ask Natal to mute him, no need to hold back and mute him that way.

Your Dexterity with control sticks terrible in forge? Use your hands to orient the pieces.

You don't neccessarily need Natal to aim and move, we have controllers for that.

  • 07.18.2009 10:00 PM PDT

"I blame canser its going slutting itself around now so are bodys act like were aging faster stupid whore of a desies" ~ GruntX

Posted by: Hylebos
Screw headsets, Natal has a microphone built into it right? If its good enough quality for the thing to recognize people voices, you could probably use that instead.

Want to mute a certain player? Just call out his service tag and ask Natal to mute him, no need to hold back and mute him that way.

I suppose that's certainly a possibility; though, it seems to fill only a small niche.

Your Dexterity with control sticks terrible in forge? Use your hands to orient the pieces.

You don't neccessarily need Natal to aim and move, we have controllers for that.

Now that's a legitimately good idea.

  • 07.18.2009 10:06 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: KneeChee27

Though I don't have much knowledge in VR technology, I'll try my best to respond to you. In your post, you talk about predictive behavior being wrong for complex games.In an interview with Alex Kipman, project director of Natal, he describes Natal's predictive behavior in the analogy of swinging a bat. When you swing a bat, the program knows when and where you're going to end before you're halfway done with the swing.

The problem with implementing this (in your opinion) was with complex games, where you would be walking one way and then could suddenly crouch and run the other way (along with doing multiple other things). I think he was talking about the finer details where if you move forward the game predicts where that foot will land before it ever makes it there. Or where that lunge will land. I don't think the game will predict grenade throws or fired shots. In the E3 video announcement of project Natal, specifically at the martial arts scene, is an example of the system working out predictive behavior for your whole body quite well. But if you're talking about Natal being able to process so much happening and accurately predict each movement, we'll have to wait and see.

I do agree with you on one point. Natal isn't going to have the perfect VR system where it will always keep track of you. There will be some bugs with the system, but it will not be totally unreliable. In this article, the author references a company's technology that is used in Natal that was originally used in pioneering ballistic missile technology. So the staff isn't just jumping blind into this technology. But then again, none of us knows what makes up Natal.

  • 07.18.2009 10:29 PM PDT

one word, Head Tracking, that can give us a 3D game with out the need of glasses and still be what we want out of a FPS

  • 07.18.2009 10:33 PM PDT

I say forget about Motion Tracking, give me Halo, the 360 controller,and soda and i'm happy

  • 07.18.2009 10:41 PM PDT

(;3=

Posted by: Samuelsoon
Who says Natal cant be used with a controller? No one ever said it had to be all or nothing.


because its supposed to work without one thats how its been advertised its supposed to break the barrier between the player and the game and that barrier is the controller (announced at E3 not my words) im not saying the natal will suck its just that it will not give me the FPS that i want and will work smoothly and not ruin reach (if incorporated at all) (the natal will be cool for all the little wii kids and puzzles mini games but it will not work for a FPS)

  • 07.18.2009 11:02 PM PDT

Clearly because the desktop uses a 3 prong plug and a laptop uses a 2 prong plug, the microwave will fill your car with tostitos better

At this point, I doubt Natal will be good enough to use in an FPS.

It doesn't matter, they haven't even announced what year Natal will be available. Reach could come out in early 2010 for all we know (although I would put my money on the August-November range) and Natal will still be in development. I won't use it even if it is available for Reach.

  • 07.18.2009 11:43 PM PDT

B.U.N.G.L.E. Pro™

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Something like this could be used for a number of things. Off the top of my head I can see it being implemented with peeking around corners and moving out of cover.

  • 07.18.2009 11:53 PM PDT

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Hopefully it will only be for UI. Maybe some interactive cutscenes, but we should be able to interact using a regular controller as well. NOT for gameplay.

[Edited on 07.19.2009 12:17 AM PDT]

  • 07.19.2009 12:17 AM PDT

I am of an open mind and I am willing to hear criticism. Also: That's stupid and you're stupid.

I would like to have an ability to break off from actual game play into just being able to move around and do anything we want in third person.

Things like;
MC Hammer Dancing
Thumb Wrestling
Hand Jive
Etc...

  • 07.19.2009 12:20 AM PDT

You are lame...

It is really simple, you don't.

  • 07.19.2009 12:29 AM PDT

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