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Subject: The Battle Rifle, Aim Assist, and CQC

Clearly because the desktop uses a 3 prong plug and a laptop uses a 2 prong plug, the microwave will fill your car with tostitos better

First off, let me say that in no way do I think my views are superior to anyone other views. I just think so far that this seems to be the most logical way to remedy some of the "problems" that people have with Halo 3 in Reach. If you can present a logical argument backed up with facts, not complete opinion with things you think to be fact, but your opinion backed up with fact, I would love to hear it.

Intro

Around multiple forums on Bungie.net, and I'm sure other Halo related forums, people are constantly voicing their issues with the Battle Rifle. There are three groups of people who want things about the Battle Rifle changed. There are the people who want to nerf the BR (make it a less overall effective weapon), people who want the BR to stay the same, and the less common now, those who want to increase its effectiveness.

If you have been a fan of the Halo series since CE you will know that gameplay has always generally revolved around a versatile mid range weapon even though the default starting weapon has always been more of a short range weapon. Halo is a circular weapon tree for that reason. Another thing to note is that the most versatile mid range weapon of each Halo game has been nerfed (weakened in some way) in each new game. We went from having the Halo CE pistol which had the potential to deliver 3 shot kills from very long distances, to a 4 shot BR in Halo 2 that was slightly less accurate, to a less accurate and slower shooting BR in Halo 3. For those of you who don't remember, there was a time in 2004-mid 2005 where the H2 BR was extremely weak and practically useless (prepatch), this is a situation I strongly want to avoid.

There will always be one gun in Halo that is more effective than all the others. That's just the way it will be. I'm saying that gun is already well balanced and it does not need to be weakened to compensate for the uselessness of the short range aresenal of Halo, its time for new changes to be tried.

My Ideas
First of all, the main mid range weapon of Reach does not have to be a BR. I would be fine with them using a pistol or whatever. Hell they could use a potato gun for all I care, it just needs to work, and I'm just using the BR as a reference point of something they could do.

One important thing to keep in mind about the Battle Rifle is that in default settings, the fewest shots that you can kill someone with is 4 shots. This is the main part about the battle rifle that influenced my views. I myself have put over 21,000 games into the Halo series on XBL and LAN. To this day, in default settings, I still kill people with 5+ shots from the battle rifle far more often than I do in 4. Now, I know I'm an above average player, not to sound full of myself, but frankly I think I am quite distanced from the average Halo player in terms of aiming skill and in game smarts. This would only lead me to believe that the average Halo player is less skilled in aiming with the Battle Rifle than I am. In fact, I know I am, sorry, that's just what playing that much Halo will do to you. Factoring in everything you have to take into account when shooting the BR, I believe that the average user of the BR takes anywhere from 6-7 shots to kill an opponent with the BR.

All weapons have a maximum potential that you can reach with them. No human being will ever be able to reach the maximum potential that any gun has. You can come fairly close, but you can never reach the point where you literally can wield a weapon perfectly, to its full potential, in every situation possible in this game. Another important thing to keep in mind is that some weapons are easier to come close to reaching their full potential. Its no secret that in its melee/close, the AR is easier to use than the BR in the mid range domain.

I believe there are three good paths to go with the current Battle Rifle.

1. Keep it the same while decreasing the bullet magnetism/auto aim.
2. Decrease the spread of the Battle Rifle slightly and decrease the bullet magnetism/auto aim as well.
3. Keep it the same

For those of you who don't know about bullet magnetism (also called generally "Auto Aim), it is a form of Aim Assist

Now, I'm sure I've completely lost some people there and they are now pounding away at how the BR will be too effective at long range. Don't become one of those people, hear me out. Doing this will do several things. The first is that it will require the user of the battle rifle to have better aim. The second will require the user of the BR to have better aim than if only what was used in the first suggestion. Now when the average Halo player is definitely not killing people in 4 or even 5 shots a majority of the time, how will making it harder to aim by increasing the accuracy of the weapon slightly . I could go more into it, but all I will be saying over and over is make the battle rifle harder to aim to get the people to stop complaining about its potential when in reality no one is close to reaching its full potential.

The Assault Rifle and Magnum

These are two guns that I kind of like to throw in their own class. They have more range and overall capability than the short range weapons, but they most certainly aren't mid range weapons. I'm going to skip an into into these and just go straight into what I think we should see happen and my reasoning.

The Magnum

There are three things I would like to see with the magnum.

1. Increase the accuracy of the magnum.
2. Slightly increase the rate of fire of the magnum.
3. Add a 1.5x scope onto the magnum.
4. Don't allow the magnum to be dual wielded.

The reason I want the scope put on the magnum as well as the accuracy increase, is that I want it to stand a chance at mid range without encroaching on the Battle Rifles mid range dominance, or the sniper rifle in any way. These changes would make the gun more effective against the BR and close range weapons at distances, but it would still always lose to the battle rifle if each user hits all of their bullets, or even if the BR user misses one. I just want the rate of fire slightly increased on the magnum because it shoots so slow. The magnum pretty much gets beat up on at every range, with these changes, a skilled user can wield the magnum slightly more effectively but it still gets beat by the other mid range weapons at distances, and it will still lose most of the time in close range/melee combat.

The AR

The changes I want for the AR are simple. Make it a bit more accurate. That's it. Honestly, I just believe we shouldn't be starting off with a limited close range weapon that leaves people defenseless in certain situations. With a small increase in accuracy it becomes more effective against he battle rifle and magnum at a little farther distances, but it is not changed so much that we don't recognize it anymore. It would still lose to most of the many more powerful CQC weapons. In fact, it would be less effective against them because with the increased accuracy it is slightly harder to aim.

Some other reasons I want these things to occur.

- It isn't deminishing the already huge sandbox (in comparison to other range's sandbox) of CQC weapons. There are 9 CQC weapons not including the magnum/AR. (Spiker, Mauler, Shotgun, Grav hammer, SMGs, plamsa rifle, sword, Plasma Pistol+beatdown, flamethrower).

- Slightly distancing the AR and Magnum from these will actually increase the effectiveness of CQC weapons in close/melee range.

- There are more available weapons that a skilled user can take out a BR with from a range. This should prevent the utter dominance (which is a bit much, even I agree) that the BR has over the field without making it a half gun.

The Carbine

There are two non function related things I think should be changed with the carbine.

1. It should be allowed to be a starting weapon.
2. It should be more common on more maps.

The first reason should be pretty self explanatory. The second reason will also help decrease the overall effectiveness of the BR because another mid range dominant weapon that is actually stronger than it is now more common.

Conclusion

I believe my ideas would decrease the effectiveness of the BR without completely nerfing it while increasing the effectiveness of quite a few other guns in the game. I want to see Halo have a circular weapon tree in Reach, as it has in all the previous games. I just don't think the BR should be as dominant as it is, and nerfing it a 3rd time is not the answer.

Thanks for reading, please leave me some feedback.

  • 07.21.2009 8:27 AM PDT

Clearly because the desktop uses a 3 prong plug and a laptop uses a 2 prong plug, the microwave will fill your car with tostitos better

omg first!

*reserved because I may need more room*

  • 07.21.2009 8:27 AM PDT

If this destroys the BR's dominance in all ranges, I'm perfectly fine with it. Thought, I would still want Carbine starts! :D

  • 07.21.2009 8:37 AM PDT

Clearly because the desktop uses a 3 prong plug and a laptop uses a 2 prong plug, the microwave will fill your car with tostitos better

Posted by: The Jury
Interesting...although it does seem you just want to keep most everything just about the same it already is. other than the pistol. That's kinda an overhaul and that has already occurred in ODST. so we'll see...otherwise it was a nice wall of text


There are plenty of other things I would like to see change in Reach, believe me, I just think this is something that a majority of the community on B.net can relate with and would be interested in. Not to mention, I think the balance of Halo 3 is pretty good. I'm not going to lie and say that I didn't enjoy the first two Halo games more, but this post was more about balancing what currently have than big gameplay changes that will completely twist the way Halo is played in Reach from Halo 3.

Posted by: ABotelho
If this destroys the BR's dominance in all ranges, I'm perfectly fine with it. Thought, I would still want Carbine starts! :D


I think its apparent to everyone that the BR already isn't dominant in all ranges, and I won't insult you by trying to explain that to you. It will decrease the BR's dominance indirectly, through other weapons. My ideas should make weapons that stand a chance against the BR at mid range more common as well as increasing the carbine which is arguably a better weapon than the BR. So yes, it should noticeably lessen the dominance of the BR at all ranges, but it will not remove it from the center of Halo's weapon tree.

  • 07.21.2009 8:44 AM PDT

Challenge me to a Hawaiian Punch chugging contest. I dare you.


Posted by: mubox47
$.50 in store credit.

First, I think we've had enough BRin Reach threads, thugh yours is way better than most.

Second, thank you for not being one of those people who says the M6G is mid ranged. It is not nearly as accurate or ranged as a BR, which is supposed to be a mid range weapon.

I dont think what you are suggesting is really decreasing the effectiveness of the BR at all. You are actually making it harder to use, and i can not see that happening. It will create a major skill gap in the weapon. Anyone who does not know about the Aim Assist will probably not realize why it is harder to land shots, and anyone who does know about it can adjust accordingly and use the BR effectively. That's just my thought on that though.

Are you asking for the Carbine to be altered too? It seems that if the BR was decreased a bit and the Carbine was untouched but became more common, it would become used more than the BR and nothing would be solved.

I could definitely see an improved AR and magnum somewhat leveling the balance of the mid ranged weapons. There is still an issue however. The AR takes 16 bullets to kill, and it's magazine holds 32. If every round hits, you get two kills. The magnum takes 5-6 shots to kill, but the magazine only holds 8 (i think). That means you cannot get more than a kill per magazine. The BR and Carbine both have magazines large enough to get three kills per magazine, if all kills are headshots. Sure, pulling off all headshots is hard, but it allows for extra mistakes. You can miss a shot or two and still get two kills before reloading.

On a side note, i dont think 4 shotting is as hard as people make it out to be. No one pulls off consistent head shots all the time, but i -the person many people insulted for being trash at Halo 3- get them rather often, and im just an average player. The BR is not that hard to use. At mid range, getting three body shots and a head shot is not too hard, even with bullet spread.

  • 07.21.2009 8:48 AM PDT

:P

Foman is awesome!

All I can say is that this thread is win and the OP should work for Bungie.

  • 07.21.2009 9:04 AM PDT

I hunt for the Prophet of Contentment, the San 'Shyumm that murdered my son, and stole his birthright, his Energy Sword. They call our species Heretics. They claim to all that our tongues sting, our words a vile poison that feeds on the unworthy. I have seen the true face of Heresy. The head of a gallant warrior lay on the ground. His neck scorched and blistered, scarred by his own blade. I shall retrieve the weapon, and drive it through that bastard's heart! Punishment for his sins is nigh.

Interesting ideas, while I fully agree with the Carbine, and believe the BR can stay the same, My theory on how the AR and Magnum can be modified are a little different.

I feel the AR actually needs:

DECREASED Overall Accuracy: Though the AR should have very good accuracy when you pull the trigger, the AR's accuracy should diminish quickly, to become extremely ineffective at range.

INCREASED Ammo Capacity: With this decreased accuracy, a boost of 8-10 rounds per clip will prevent the "OMG I HAVE 2 RELOAD AND UR NOT DEAD YET!"

INCREASED Bullet Damage: Increase bullet damage will help compensate for the decreased accuracy when firing full auto, however BURST the weapon, and at medium range the weapon will become extremely effective (though not as great as the BR, Carbine, or Magnum, it should kill in the time the BR takes to 6-shot)


For the Magnum, I agree when it comes to increased accuracy, and fire rate, but I do not think it really needs a scope, or dual wielding removed. I think it should be able to 5 shot a BR IF the BR misses the 4 shot (effectively like it does now) but again, only if used with skill.

In addition to the Magnum, however, I think a black, weak, semi-automatic pistol should also appear on maps (the M6C, from Halo 2). Having both in one game would be excellent.


In addition, I feel the Plasma Rifle should return to the way it was in Halo CE. Bigger (Actually Rifle sized), slightly more accurate. The fire rate should begin slower, and feeling more powerful (like the difference between a Lancer, and a Hammerburst in Gears 2), but over time, the weapon loses it's accuracy, and increases fire rate to closer to what it is now. 4 shot shield drain, 7 shots (or 5 headshots) beyond the shield drain to kill. oh, and NOT dual wieldable.

[Edited on 07.21.2009 9:16 AM PDT]

  • 07.21.2009 9:12 AM PDT

Clearly because the desktop uses a 3 prong plug and a laptop uses a 2 prong plug, the microwave will fill your car with tostitos better

Posted by: The EAKLE
I dont think what you are suggesting is really decreasing the effectiveness of the BR at all. You are actually making it harder to use, and i can not see that happening. It will create a major skill gap in the weapon. Anyone who does not know about the Aim Assist will probably not realize why it is harder to land shots, and anyone who does know about it can adjust accordingly and use the BR effectively. That's just my thought on that though.


To be honest, I find your first two statements contradictory. If a weapon is harder to use, its harder to be more effective with. I don't know how you can't notice aim assist in game. I mean, your reticule physically and 100% noticeably slows down when it goes across an enemy in game. You might not know the name or the mechanics of Aim assist, but you do recognize that it is helping you shoot the other team. I don't view a skill gap as a bad thing. I'm not proposing to make it impossible to shoot, just harder than it currently is. Shouldn't players who have better accuracy be rewarded while using an accurate gun?

The point of these suggestions is that it makes other weapons approach the BR's domain. Putting two carbines spawns in place of two BR spawns will decrease the effectiveness of the BR on that map for example. The more weapons you have that pose a challenge to the BR at more ranges, the less effective it becomes at that range because of the other weapons.

Are you asking for the Carbine to be altered too? It seems that if the BR was decreased a bit and the Carbine was untouched but became more common, it would become used more than the BR and nothing would be solved.

I am not asking for the carbine to be altered itself. There are tons of BR spawns on many maps. I'm just saying on a map with more than sufficient BR spawns, for example, The Pit where there are 3 BRs on each side of the map, place a carbine on one of those spawns on each side of the map. If you have less BRs and another weapon that can challenge the BR at mid range, it is a less effective weapon.


I could definitely see an improved AR and magnum somewhat leveling the balance of the mid ranged weapons. There is still an issue however. The AR takes 16 bullets to kill, and it's magazine holds 32. If every round hits, you get two kills. The magnum takes 5-6 shots to kill, but the magazine only holds 8 (i think). That means you cannot get more than a kill per magazine. The BR and Carbine both have magazines large enough to get three kills per magazine, if all kills are headshots. Sure, pulling off all headshots is hard, but it allows for extra mistakes. You can miss a shot or two and still get two kills before reloading.

You make a good point. The problem is if the changes I propose happen they are already getting a boost, if you keep adding onto that then they become far too effective against close range weapons. I do think the ammo could be increased a little bit in each gun. Say, make the AR have 45 bullets and the Pistol have 11 or 12. I'll think about sometime today for sure, as I didn't even really take that into consideration, good idea.


On a side note, i dont think 4 shotting is as hard as people make it out to be. No one pulls off consistent head shots all the time, but i -the person many people insulted for being trash at Halo 3- get them rather often, and im just an average player. The BR is not that hard to use. At mid range, getting three body shots and a head shot is not too hard, even with bullet spread.

See, I don't agree with this. I don't even come close to getting 4 shots half the time in the MLG playlist because of all the things you have to consider while shooting.

While shooting the battle rifle you have to consider

- Distance from the target (leading shots)
- Direction the target is moving
- Human Error
- Opponents strafe
- Cover you can hide behind
- Cover your enemy can hide behind
- Connection to the game

I'm sure I missed some, but that's just for when your in a 1v1 fight with another BR user. While I dislike using specific situations to describe gameplay, I think that was general enough to get the point across. Many times I find myself being too far away from someone to even think about killing them in 4 shots with the BR. Strafing (both yours and your opponents) are huge factors when it comes to BRing someone. I would say that most people feel its easier to shoot than it actually is. Frankly, I don't buy into the "4 shotting is easy" trend because I myself don't find it easy and I've put into massive amounts of gameplay into each Halo game, how are people who are just picking up Halo 3 months after it came out finding it so easy when I've been playing Halo since 2002 and I still am not even close to reaching the maximum potential of the BR. I'm just basing my views off my experience.

  • 07.21.2009 9:12 AM PDT

I hunt for the Prophet of Contentment, the San 'Shyumm that murdered my son, and stole his birthright, his Energy Sword. They call our species Heretics. They claim to all that our tongues sting, our words a vile poison that feeds on the unworthy. I have seen the true face of Heresy. The head of a gallant warrior lay on the ground. His neck scorched and blistered, scarred by his own blade. I shall retrieve the weapon, and drive it through that bastard's heart! Punishment for his sins is nigh.

Also, I have never had an issue with the 4 shot. Though I DO get 5 shots often, I still get plenty of 4 shots, and slim to no 6 shots.

Have you ever considered lowering your sensitivity? Believe me, it helps.

[Edited on 07.21.2009 9:18 AM PDT]

  • 07.21.2009 9:17 AM PDT

believe it or not, i actually read the whole thing.

it was a nice, well thought out post. you even used proper grammar, spelling, and syntax. which is rare these days.

halo 3 is the first game in the halo series that i have played, so i cant really make an informed judgment on previous games. all i know is that i dont really have a problem with the BR the way it is now.

  • 07.21.2009 9:19 AM PDT

Challenge me to a Hawaiian Punch chugging contest. I dare you.


Posted by: mubox47
$.50 in store credit.

My point in the first paragraph is that the BR would be harder yo use, but just as effective as before.I could see many people getting angry at stuff like "the BR being less accurate" or "headshots not registering." The BR itself would be just as it is now, and the players would have to be better to use it.



I am not asking for the carbine to be altered itself. There are tons of BR spawns on many maps. I'm just saying on a map with more than sufficient BR spawns, for example, The Pit where there are 3 BRs on each side of the map, place a carbine on one of those spawns on each side of the map. If you have less BRs and another weapon that can challenge the BR at mid range, it is a less effective weapon.
I could still see this as a bit of a problem. If the BR becomes harder to use, but the carbine doesn't, people will probably start favoring the carbine. And honestly if aim assist was removed enough to make a noticeable difference, the Carbine would probably over power the BR. That's all speculation though.


See, I don't agree with this. I don't even come close to getting 4 shots half the time in the MLG playlist because of all the things you have to consider while shooting.
I probably get them less then half the time too, but it still happens multiple times every game i get a BR. The closer you get the easier it becomes too. Of course, this could have something to do with the fact that i rarely get matched with anyone higher than a 45. Im pretty sure you have a higher rank then me, and you are playign better people.

  • 07.21.2009 9:20 AM PDT
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People who say that 4 BR shots are easy have to take into consideration that they don't know their enemy's health, unless they viewed the game via theatre mode (but that's after the game, and most people won't take the time to see whether they shot a fully shielded enemy with 4 shots). You can notice when an enemy is one shot; either the lights on the armour are bright or you can see the "electricity (lack of a better name...) around the enemy. Other than that, I don't know how you're going to distinguish between a person with full shields or a person with half shields. And even if you could, I'd think that you'd need some sort of uber vision. My take on the whole "4 shots are easy" issue.

Everything that you've said are the things that I want most for Reach. An increase in range for the AR (assuming that will be the spawn weapon again) would help close the gap between close range and medium range, indirectly making the BR less effective. Something that I'd absolutely LOVE to see in Reach is the inclusion of the silenced SMG and Automag from ODST, or something similar to the aforementioned weapons.

Auto-Aim must be reduced for Reach.

  • 07.21.2009 9:34 AM PDT

Clearly because the desktop uses a 3 prong plug and a laptop uses a 2 prong plug, the microwave will fill your car with tostitos better

Posted by: The EAKLE
My point in the first paragraph is that the BR would be harder yo use, but just as effective as before.I could see many people getting angry at stuff like "the BR being less accurate" or "headshots not registering." The BR itself would be just as it is now, and the players would have to be better to use it.

I could still see this as a bit of a problem. If the BR becomes harder to use, but the carbine doesn't, people will probably start favoring the carbine. And honestly if aim assist was removed enough to make a noticeable difference, the Carbine would probably over power the BR. That's all speculation though.

I probably get them less then half the time too, but it still happens multiple times every game i get a BR. The closer you get the easier it becomes too. Of course, this could have something to do with the fact that i rarely get matched with anyone higher than a 45. Im pretty sure you have a higher rank then me, and you are playign better people.


I understood what your first paragraph was about. I don't quite understand this one. What do headshots not registering have to do with anything? That already happens because we are playing on the internet. If you miss, than you miss. I'm not saying completely remove auto aim, I'm saying lessen it a touch. This thread isn't about massively nerfing capabilities of weapons, its about finesse, touching them up.

You hit the nail on the head with your statement about the BR being just as it is now. The problem is you are not understand where I am coming from. If I, a person who has played the series since 2002, logged easily over 21,000 games of Halo CE, 2, and 3 on LAN and XBL, is a 50 in 4 playlists hits 5+ shot kills in matchmaking far more often than 4 shot kills, what would make me think that the average Halo player comes close to even being as good with it as me? The BR would be just as hard for the staff captain to use as it would be the brigadier general or the guy who's an MLG pro. Some people are just better at aiming than other people and it will always be that way. People will adapt to the change in aim assist, they have with every other Halo game.

The Battle Rifle's potential would in fact remain the same, the difficulty for all players to reach that potential will be increased.

The carbine thing could be a problem. That can be easily remedied though by placing carbines in neutral places on the map. Its a weapon that isn't seen much, and if is a problem you can increase the amount of time it takes to spawn, hell you can even take it off the map, but what is happening right now isn't really favorable to a lot of the community, and something needs to be done to try and fix it.

Your right that 4 shots happen pretty much every game. Your also right that the closer you get with the BR the easier it is to achieve a 4 shot. But then you also have to consider that the person you are getting closer to may have one of the 10 close range weapons in the game. The truth is, most people overstate how good they are at Halo on these forums. I don't have a problem with my ability to get 4 shots, the truth is many times its not even possible to get a 4 shot kill from the distance I am shooting a person a BR with. The closer I get to that person, the more weapons I have to worry about.

  • 07.21.2009 9:59 AM PDT

You know I quite like this plan. The AR become a decent weapon, the BR becomes harder to use at close range (I'm assuming that with the scope aim assist would stay the same), the magnum becomes an 'anti-BR' weapon that can kill quicker that a BR at the price of a small clip and the carbine become a semi power weapon that's just outright better than the BR. All in all not a bad idea.

My one thought is that there should be both a magnum and an auto-mag. The magnum could be a single wield mid range weapon while the auto mag is used at closer ranges.

[Edited on 07.21.2009 10:05 AM PDT]

  • 07.21.2009 10:01 AM PDT

I agree with this thread. Finally someone with some brains. But we still need to find a place for the Ma5k.

  • 07.21.2009 10:07 AM PDT

Clearly because the desktop uses a 3 prong plug and a laptop uses a 2 prong plug, the microwave will fill your car with tostitos better

Posted by: Iron Rust Bucket
You know I quite like this plan. The AR become a decent weapon, the BR becomes harder to use at close range (I'm assuming that with the scope aim assist would stay the same), the magnum becomes an 'anti-BR' weapon that can kill quicker that a BR at the price of a small clip and the carbine become a semi power weapon that's just outright better than the BR. All in all not a bad idea.

My one thought is that there should be both a magnum and an auto-mag. The magnum could be a single wield mid range weapon while the auto mag is used at closer ranges.


The auto mag is a decent idea, especially because it is one of the few dual wieldable guns in the game that can get head shots efficiently. This way getting rid of the magnum doesn't hurt dual wielding either.

Although I should clarify that the pistol would not kill faster than the BR in my idea. Its a novel idea for it to have a small clip and kill faster, definitely something that could be considered, but I just don't think the pistol should be that strong, mainly because its a pistol and the battle rifle is... well.. a rifle.

  • 07.21.2009 10:09 AM PDT

I agree

and Eakle is retarded

  • 07.21.2009 10:36 AM PDT

Character Artist -- Electronic Arts

You know the SMG has better range than the Assault rifle right?

Also, The BR is perfect as it stands right now. There is no bullet magnetism, you have to lead your headshots at distance. The spread is also fine, it makes the weapon less consistent at long range, so that sniping can be fairly effective against the BR.

Now, it would be cool to make the BR less effective at close range, but there just really is not a practical way to do that, other than make close range weapons more powerful.

The slight tweak that could be made to the BR is just the rate of fire. Its a bit too quick, making it slightly less effective in close proximity than the Assault rifle. If this is the case then a slightly tighter spread would be better. Because you will have more time between BR shots to counter with the sniper rifle.

As far as spawning weapon issues, You should spawn with a pair of weapons. the BR for long medium, the AR for Medium close. Then the Dual Wield weapons should be noticeably stronger in close range.

The only weapon that needs adjustments is the AR. 5 bullets + Beatdown is just too fast. It makes duel wielding a 20-40 foot range, because any close will lose flat out against the AR.


I'm guessing Bungie is going to include the Silenced SMG that does headshots in Halo Reach, so a lot of the sandbox balance will change.

  • 07.21.2009 10:48 AM PDT
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No one wants to say it for fear of being criticized by people who have no idea what they are talking about, but the BR is incredibly weak, compared to its counterparts in the other halo games. I laugh whenever I see someone make the claim that the BR is over powered. Have you ever played Halo CE or even Halo 2? The Halo 3 BR is ridiculously weak compared to the pistol from Halo CE and even the Halo 2 BR.

Halo CE had the best multiplayer by far and a large part of that success can be attributed to the fact that the kill time was so fast in that game. When two people faced off, someone died. There was no such thing as "strongsiding" away, and getting a second chance at life. You met someone, and if you got outplayed, you were penalized with death. It would be a pretty radical move to go back to this style in Reach, but I am still hoping for it.

Great thread.

  • 07.21.2009 12:04 PM PDT

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Posted by: SS_Crow
You know the SMG has better range than the Assault rifle right?

Also, The BR is perfect as it stands right now. There is no bullet magnetism, you have to lead your headshots at distance. The spread is also fine, it makes the weapon less consistent at long range, so that sniping can be fairly effective against the BR.

Now, it would be cool to make the BR less effective at close range, but there just really is not a practical way to do that, other than make close range weapons more powerful.

The slight tweak that could be made to the BR is just the rate of fire. Its a bit too quick, making it slightly less effective in close proximity than the Assault rifle. If this is the case then a slightly tighter spread would be better. Because you will have more time between BR shots to counter with the sniper rifle.

As far as spawning weapon issues, You should spawn with a pair of weapons. the BR for long medium, the AR for Medium close. Then the Dual Wield weapons should be noticeably stronger in close range.

The only weapon that needs adjustments is the AR. 5 bullets + Beatdown is just too fast. It makes duel wielding a 20-40 foot range, because any close will lose flat out against the AR.


I'm guessing Bungie is going to include the Silenced SMG that does headshots in Halo Reach, so a lot of the sandbox balance will change.


What does the SMG having better range than the AR have to do with anything? Its not that much better, and SMG's have a huge amount of recoil.

There is in fact bullet magnetism and reticule magnetism in each of the Halo's. Values of Bullet and Reticule magnetism. Having a spread on a battle rifle doesn't really accomplish much if the bullets are going to curve towards the edge of the reticule where the target is anyways. What makes the weapon inconsistent at long range is that all forms of aim assist go and its based completely on your own skill. If anything, the spread just makes the weapon perform inconsistently at all ranges more so than it balances it out.

I don't get how much weaker you can make the BR at close range. There are so many guns that are 1 shot + melee kills at close range not to mention all duals and the assault rifle beat the BR at close and melee range. Even the sniper within melee range is arguably more deadly. As for the AR beating out duals except from a 20-40 foot range, I don't know what your talking about. There are plenty of dual wield combos that beat the AR at close range/melee range.

You say you should spawn with a pairing of weapons every game, the BR an AR and that it will make Dual Wield weapons noticeably stronger in close range. Then literally in the next sentence you talk about how the AR beats the dual wields in melee/close range.

Guessing what Bungie is going to throw at Reach won't do any good because we have no clue. The only thing we really can do is base our opinions off of stuff that we know and have experienced from current and past Halo games.

  • 07.21.2009 12:05 PM PDT

Character Artist -- Electronic Arts

Posted by: Xx Mr Bill xX
Posted by: SS_Crow
You know the SMG has better range than the Assault rifle right?

Also, The BR is perfect as it stands right now. There is no bullet magnetism, you have to lead your headshots at distance. The spread is also fine, it makes the weapon less consistent at long range, so that sniping can be fairly effective against the BR.

Now, it would be cool to make the BR less effective at close range, but there just really is not a practical way to do that, other than make close range weapons more powerful.

The slight tweak that could be made to the BR is just the rate of fire. Its a bit too quick, making it slightly less effective in close proximity than the Assault rifle. If this is the case then a slightly tighter spread would be better. Because you will have more time between BR shots to counter with the sniper rifle.

As far as spawning weapon issues, You should spawn with a pair of weapons. the BR for long medium, the AR for Medium close. Then the Dual Wield weapons should be noticeably stronger in close range.

The only weapon that needs adjustments is the AR. 5 bullets + Beatdown is just too fast. It makes duel wielding a 20-40 foot range, because any close will lose flat out against the AR.


I'm guessing Bungie is going to include the Silenced SMG that does headshots in Halo Reach, so a lot of the sandbox balance will change.


What does the SMG having better range than the AR have to do with anything? Its not that much better, and SMG's have a huge amount of recoil.

There is in fact bullet magnetism and reticule magnetism in each of the Halo's. Values of Bullet and Reticule magnetism. Having a spread on a battle rifle doesn't really accomplish much if the bullets are going to curve towards the edge of the reticule where the target is anyways. What makes the weapon inconsistent at long range is that all forms of aim assist go and its based completely on your own skill. If anything, the spread just makes the weapon perform inconsistently at all ranges more so than it balances it out.

I don't get how much weaker you can make the BR at close range. There are so many guns that are 1 shot + melee kills at close range not to mention all duals and the assault rifle beat the BR at close and melee range. Even the sniper within melee range is arguably more deadly. As for the AR beating out duals except from a 20-40 foot range, I don't know what your talking about. There are plenty of dual wield combos that beat the AR at close range/melee range.

You say you should spawn with a pairing of weapons every game, the BR an AR and that it will make Dual Wield weapons noticeably stronger in close range. Then literally in the next sentence you talk about how the AR beats the dual wields in melee/close range.

Guessing what Bungie is going to throw at Reach won't do any good because we have no clue. The only thing we really can do is base our opinions off of stuff that we know and have experienced from current and past Halo games.


Good lord,
You are really going to pull the Bullet Spread on the BR argument. What is this 2007? No its 2009, the BR is perfect at range. The Bullet magnetism on the BR does not exist like in Halo 2. If you are shooting at an opponent 100 feet way, and you are aiming directly at their head while they run along a tanget to your proximity, not all of your shots will hit. You must lead the bullets.

The AR is 5 rounds + melee to kill, that is less than a second in close range combat. The BR requires 3 bursts + melee.

The AR gets beat by dual wields at 20-40 feet encounter distance. Any combo exluding the Mauler will beat the AR in that regard. Dual Wields have a very specific range to encounter with, and that is a problem. They would fair much better if AR took 10 rounds + Melee. That would allow the Dual Wield to work in close proximity to the AR with more working time.

But go on, tell me more of the evils of the (nonexistant) bullet Magnetism of the BR and how that removes all skill from the game.

  • 07.21.2009 12:18 PM PDT

Clearly because the desktop uses a 3 prong plug and a laptop uses a 2 prong plug, the microwave will fill your car with tostitos better

Posted by: SS_Crow
Posted by: Xx Mr Bill xX
Posted by: SS_Crow
You know the SMG has better range than the Assault rifle right?

Also, The BR is perfect as it stands right now. There is no bullet magnetism, you have to lead your headshots at distance. The spread is also fine, it makes the weapon less consistent at long range, so that sniping can be fairly effective against the BR.

Now, it would be cool to make the BR less effective at close range, but there just really is not a practical way to do that, other than make close range weapons more powerful.

The slight tweak that could be made to the BR is just the rate of fire. Its a bit too quick, making it slightly less effective in close proximity than the Assault rifle. If this is the case then a slightly tighter spread would be better. Because you will have more time between BR shots to counter with the sniper rifle.

As far as spawning weapon issues, You should spawn with a pair of weapons. the BR for long medium, the AR for Medium close. Then the Dual Wield weapons should be noticeably stronger in close range.

The only weapon that needs adjustments is the AR. 5 bullets + Beatdown is just too fast. It makes duel wielding a 20-40 foot range, because any close will lose flat out against the AR.


I'm guessing Bungie is going to include the Silenced SMG that does headshots in Halo Reach, so a lot of the sandbox balance will change.


What does the SMG having better range than the AR have to do with anything? Its not that much better, and SMG's have a huge amount of recoil.

There is in fact bullet magnetism and reticule magnetism in each of the Halo's. Values of Bullet and Reticule magnetism. Having a spread on a battle rifle doesn't really accomplish much if the bullets are going to curve towards the edge of the reticule where the target is anyways. What makes the weapon inconsistent at long range is that all forms of aim assist go and its based completely on your own skill. If anything, the spread just makes the weapon perform inconsistently at all ranges more so than it balances it out.

I don't get how much weaker you can make the BR at close range. There are so many guns that are 1 shot + melee kills at close range not to mention all duals and the assault rifle beat the BR at close and melee range. Even the sniper within melee range is arguably more deadly. As for the AR beating out duals except from a 20-40 foot range, I don't know what your talking about. There are plenty of dual wield combos that beat the AR at close range/melee range.

You say you should spawn with a pairing of weapons every game, the BR an AR and that it will make Dual Wield weapons noticeably stronger in close range. Then literally in the next sentence you talk about how the AR beats the dual wields in melee/close range.

Guessing what Bungie is going to throw at Reach won't do any good because we have no clue. The only thing we really can do is base our opinions off of stuff that we know and have experienced from current and past Halo games.


Good lord,
You are really going to pull the Bullet Spread on the BR argument. What is this 2007? No its 2009, the BR is perfect at range. The Bullet magnetism on the BR does not exist like in Halo 2. If you are shooting at an opponent 100 feet way, and you are aiming directly at their head while they run along a tanget to your proximity, not all of your shots will hit. You must lead the bullets.

The AR is 5 rounds + melee to kill, that is less than a second in close range combat. The BR requires 3 bursts + melee.

The AR gets beat by dual wields at 20-40 feet encounter distance. Any combo exluding the Mauler will beat the AR in that regard. Dual Wields have a very specific range to encounter with, and that is a problem. They would fair much better if AR took 10 rounds + Melee. That would allow the Dual Wield to work in close proximity to the AR with more working time.

But go on, tell me more of the evils of the (nonexistant) bullet Magnetism of the BR and how that removes all skill from the game.


Your argument against decreasing the bullet magnetism has nothing to do with bullet magnetism. I never even mentioned leading shots, its a basic concept of gameplay. What does it have to do with this debate though? Bullets take time to travel and the target can move in that time, therefore you must shoot in front of your target. Everyone knows this. That has nothing to do with bullet magnetism pulling your pullets onto the target even though there is a spread. Tell me what good a bullet spread does if your bullets are going to be pulled towards the target anyways? The only time bullet magnetism doesn't matter is when your reticule is no longer red when your zoomed in which case you have no reticule magnetism in that case either so its already much harder to aim.

It might as well take all 4 shots that you can kill someone in CQC with the BR with rather than throwing the melee unless your hoping for the neutral beatdown, it takes just about as much time. All CQC weapons kill faster than the BR at close/melee range and you are talking about making the BR weaker at close range in your first post.

Every single dual wieldable weapon functions better the closer in range you get to your target. You can beat the AR with plenty of different dual wield combos at melee and close range. Please, try and beat dual spikers at close range with the AR. Then go and try and beat dual spikers with the AR at 40 feet. The opposite of what you say will happen. Dual SMGs will kill an AR in close range. A plasma pistol+melee will kill an AR within melee range. A single plasma rifle will easily kill the AR in melee range.

Where did I say that bullet magnetism removes all skill from the game? Point it out, I'll be waiting. You've assumed pretty much everything in your post and the only things that you have stated that are true don't have anything to do with the argument in the first place.

  • 07.21.2009 12:33 PM PDT

Character Artist -- Electronic Arts

Posted by: Xx Mr Bill xX
Posted by: SS_Crow
Posted by: Xx Mr Bill xX
Posted by: SS_Crow
You know the SMG has better range than the Assault rifle right?

Also, The BR is perfect as it stands right now. There is no bullet magnetism, you have to lead your headshots at distance. The spread is also fine, it makes the weapon less consistent at long range, so that sniping can be fairly effective against the BR.

Now, it would be cool to make the BR less effective at close range, but there just really is not a practical way to do that, other than make close range weapons more powerful.

The slight tweak that could be made to the BR is just the rate of fire. Its a bit too quick, making it slightly less effective in close proximity than the Assault rifle. If this is the case then a slightly tighter spread would be better. Because you will have more time between BR shots to counter with the sniper rifle.

As far as spawning weapon issues, You should spawn with a pair of weapons. the BR for long medium, the AR for Medium close. Then the Dual Wield weapons should be noticeably stronger in close range.

The only weapon that needs adjustments is the AR. 5 bullets + Beatdown is just too fast. It makes duel wielding a 20-40 foot range, because any close will lose flat out against the AR.


I'm guessing Bungie is going to include the Silenced SMG that does headshots in Halo Reach, so a lot of the sandbox balance will change.


What does the SMG having better range than the AR have to do with anything? Its not that much better, and SMG's have a huge amount of recoil.

There is in fact bullet magnetism and reticule magnetism in each of the Halo's. Values of Bullet and Reticule magnetism. Having a spread on a battle rifle doesn't really accomplish much if the bullets are going to curve towards the edge of the reticule where the target is anyways. What makes the weapon inconsistent at long range is that all forms of aim assist go and its based completely on your own skill. If anything, the spread just makes the weapon perform inconsistently at all ranges more so than it balances it out.

I don't get how much weaker you can make the BR at close range. There are so many guns that are 1 shot + melee kills at close range not to mention all duals and the assault rifle beat the BR at close and melee range. Even the sniper within melee range is arguably more deadly. As for the AR beating out duals except from a 20-40 foot range, I don't know what your talking about. There are plenty of dual wield combos that beat the AR at close range/melee range.

You say you should spawn with a pairing of weapons every game, the BR an AR and that it will make Dual Wield weapons noticeably stronger in close range. Then literally in the next sentence you talk about how the AR beats the dual wields in melee/close range.

Guessing what Bungie is going to throw at Reach won't do any good because we have no clue. The only thing we really can do is base our opinions off of stuff that we know and have experienced from current and past Halo games.


Good lord,
You are really going to pull the Bullet Spread on the BR argument. What is this 2007? No its 2009, the BR is perfect at range. The Bullet magnetism on the BR does not exist like in Halo 2. If you are shooting at an opponent 100 feet way, and you are aiming directly at their head while they run along a tanget to your proximity, not all of your shots will hit. You must lead the bullets.

The AR is 5 rounds + melee to kill, that is less than a second in close range combat. The BR requires 3 bursts + melee.

The AR gets beat by dual wields at 20-40 feet encounter distance. Any combo exluding the Mauler will beat the AR in that regard. Dual Wields have a very specific range to encounter with, and that is a problem. They would fair much better if AR took 10 rounds + Melee. That would allow the Dual Wield to work in close proximity to the AR with more working time.

But go on, tell me more of the evils of the (nonexistant) bullet Magnetism of the BR and how that removes all skill from the game.


Your argument against decreasing the bullet magnetism has nothing to do with bullet magnetism. I never even mentioned leading shots, its a basic concept of gameplay. What does it have to do with this debate though? Bullets take time to travel and the target can move in that time, therefore you must shoot in front of your target. Everyone knows this. That has nothing to do with bullet magnetism pulling your pullets onto the target even though there is a spread. Tell me what good a bullet spread does if your bullets are going to be pulled towards the target anyways? The only time bullet magnetism doesn't matter is when your reticule is no longer red when your zoomed in which case you have no reticule magnetism in that case either so its already much harder to aim.

It might as well take all 4 shots that you can kill someone in CQC with the BR with rather than throwing the melee unless your hoping for the neutral beatdown, it takes just about as much time. All CQC weapons kill faster than the BR at close/melee range and you are talking about making the BR weaker at close range in your first post.

Every single dual wieldable weapon functions better the closer in range you get to your target. You can beat the AR with plenty of different dual wield combos at melee and close range. Please, try and beat dual spikers at close range with the AR. Then go and try and beat dual spikers with the AR at 40 feet. The opposite of what you say will happen. Dual SMGs will kill an AR in close range. A plasma pistol+melee will kill an AR within melee range. A single plasma rifle will easily kill the AR in melee range.

Where did I say that bullet magnetism removes all skill from the game? Point it out, I'll be waiting. You've assumed pretty much everything in your post and the only things that you have stated that are true don't have anything to do with the argument in the first place.


" Tell me what good a bullet spread does if your bullets are going to be pulled towards the target anyways?"

This does not happen, If your cursor is red on the target, but you are aiming slightly behind the opponent, the bullets will miss unless the target is still, in which case there is a chance for the random spread to place itself on the edge of the reticule.

Random variations do not impact skill. Apply the skill required to lead shots to handle the bullet travel speed, because the game will not apply auto-Aim to your bullets for you.

Also, Might I suggest Gamasutra.com Its generally where people go when they want to blog about how to design games.

[Edited on 07.21.2009 12:42 PM PDT]

  • 07.21.2009 12:40 PM PDT

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