Halo: Reach Forum
This topic has moved here: Subject: How Natal WILL work with Reach
  • Subject: How Natal WILL work with Reach
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
  • of 2
Subject: How Natal WILL work with Reach

One word Head Tracking

Also this guy is working on the Natal so it will most likely support head tracking

  • 07.22.2009 5:19 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Intrepid Mythic Member
  • gamertag: P3P5I
  • user homepage:

Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

There's a thread about this half a page down, come on now...

  • 07.22.2009 5:20 PM PDT

Posted by: P3P5I
There's a thread about this half a page down, come on now...
sont see anything about head tracking?

  • 07.22.2009 5:23 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Intrepid Mythic Member
  • gamertag: P3P5I
  • user homepage:

Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

I see what you are talking about. But your topic is how Natal would work for Reach and there's a thread about this (many threads). While I do see the difference in your thread, I would've just put it into the other thread, but I guess it's just up to opinion.

Back on topic. Good video. While I don't understand the whole idea with this, it could help to alleviate some problems with incorporating it into Reach.

  • 07.22.2009 5:38 PM PDT

"I blame canser its going slutting itself around now so are bodys act like were aging faster stupid whore of a desies" ~ GruntX

Posted by: redm0nkey
One word Head Tracking

Also this guy is working on the Natal so it will most likely support head tracking

The issue, here, is that he has two pieces of hardware sending out and receiving specific signals. Both the Wii remote is expecting to pick up, and reflect back, two points of infrared light, while the sensor bar is there to emit that infrared light and then pick up its reflection. These are both well-tuned pieces of hardware with components designed specifically to send and receive infrared signals.

Your head (and every other part of your body, for that matter), does not accurately reflect infrared light, and it does absolutely nothing to emit it.

  • 07.22.2009 5:39 PM PDT

Posted by: KneeChee27
Posted by: redm0nkey
One word Head Tracking

Also this guy is working on the Natal so it will most likely support head tracking

The issue, here, is that he has two pieces of hardware sending out and receiving specific signals. Both the Wii remote is expecting to pick up, and reflect back, two points of infrared light, while the sensor bar is there to emit that infrared light and then pick up its reflection. These are both well-tuned pieces of hardware with components designed specifically to send and receive infrared signals.

Your head (and every other part of your body, for that matter), does not accurately reflect infrared light, and it does absolutely nothing to emit it.
I think the idea was to see the world in a 3-D percpective. Clean too... like IMAX 3-D.

  • 07.22.2009 5:52 PM PDT

"I blame canser its going slutting itself around now so are bodys act like were aging faster stupid whore of a desies" ~ GruntX

Posted by: spngefan11
Posted by: KneeChee27
Posted by: redm0nkey
One word Head Tracking

Also this guy is working on the Natal so it will most likely support head tracking

The issue, here, is that he has two pieces of hardware sending out and receiving specific signals. Both the Wii remote is expecting to pick up, and reflect back, two points of infrared light, while the sensor bar is there to emit that infrared light and then pick up its reflection. These are both well-tuned pieces of hardware with components designed specifically to send and receive infrared signals.

Your head (and every other part of your body, for that matter), does not accurately reflect infrared light, and it does absolutely nothing to emit it.

I think the idea was to see the world in a 3-D percpective. Clean too... like IMAX 3-D.

I understand the concept. The point is, it isn't something that Natal would be able to replicate, for the entire duration of a game, with any accuracy. It's a camera looking for movement in a very busy scene. It relies only on itself for both sending and receiving signals. If, at any point in time, that signal is lost -- even for a second -- all immersion is lost.

  • 07.22.2009 6:00 PM PDT

Posted by: KneeChee27
Posted by: redm0nkey
One word Head Tracking

Also this guy is working on the Natal so it will most likely support head tracking

The issue, here, is that he has two pieces of hardware sending out and receiving specific signals. Both the Wii remote is expecting to pick up, and reflect back, two points of infrared light, while the sensor bar is there to emit that infrared light and then pick up its reflection. These are both well-tuned pieces of hardware with components designed specifically to send and receive infrared signals.

Your head (and every other part of your body, for that matter), does not accurately reflect infrared light, and it does absolutely nothing to emit it.
the Natal can do a #D tracking on your body, its not hard to figure out where your head is compared to the screen if you are infront of it, head tracking is a very possible concept with the Natal

  • 07.22.2009 6:01 PM PDT

why are you looking at this?

i doubt project natal will be used for EVERYTHING, and probably FPS games and other types of games will still use a controller instead of project natal.

  • 07.22.2009 6:01 PM PDT

Posted by: visorak231
i doubt project natal will be used for EVERYTHING, and probably FPS games and other types of games will still use a controller instead of project natal.
again you would still use your controler, its just if you have the Natal you have the option for head tracking

  • 07.22.2009 6:05 PM PDT

Posted by: KneeChee27
Posted by: spngefan11
Posted by: KneeChee27
Posted by: redm0nkey
One word Head Tracking

Also this guy is working on the Natal so it will most likely support head tracking

The issue, here, is that he has two pieces of hardware sending out and receiving specific signals. Both the Wii remote is expecting to pick up, and reflect back, two points of infrared light, while the sensor bar is there to emit that infrared light and then pick up its reflection. These are both well-tuned pieces of hardware with components designed specifically to send and receive infrared signals.

Your head (and every other part of your body, for that matter), does not accurately reflect infrared light, and it does absolutely nothing to emit it.

I think the idea was to see the world in a 3-D percpective. Clean too... like IMAX 3-D.

I understand the concept. The point is, it isn't something that Natal would be able to replicate, for the entire duration of a game, with any accuracy. It's a camera looking for movement in a very busy scene. It relies only on itself for both sending and receiving signals. If, at any point in time, that signal is lost -- even for a second -- all immersion is lost.

Hmm... alright then.

One question, if my cat jumperd in range of the scanner, could it use Natal?

  • 07.22.2009 6:05 PM PDT

"I blame canser its going slutting itself around now so are bodys act like were aging faster stupid whore of a desies" ~ GruntX

Posted by: spngefan11
Posted by: KneeChee27
Posted by: spngefan11
Posted by: KneeChee27
Posted by: redm0nkey
One word Head Tracking

Also this guy is working on the Natal so it will most likely support head tracking

The issue, here, is that he has two pieces of hardware sending out and receiving specific signals. Both the Wii remote is expecting to pick up, and reflect back, two points of infrared light, while the sensor bar is there to emit that infrared light and then pick up its reflection. These are both well-tuned pieces of hardware with components designed specifically to send and receive infrared signals.

Your head (and every other part of your body, for that matter), does not accurately reflect infrared light, and it does absolutely nothing to emit it.

I think the idea was to see the world in a 3-D percpective. Clean too... like IMAX 3-D.

I understand the concept. The point is, it isn't something that Natal would be able to replicate, for the entire duration of a game, with any accuracy. It's a camera looking for movement in a very busy scene. It relies only on itself for both sending and receiving signals. If, at any point in time, that signal is lost -- even for a second -- all immersion is lost.

Hmm... alright then.

One question, if my cat jumperd in range of the scanner, could it use Natal?

Seeing as the only thing Natal is doing is "reading" the 3D space directly in front of the scanner bar while simultaneously trying to break up the scene by interpreting color, whether or not your cat would interrupt your gaming experience depends on where your cat is located in the room and how the room is lit.

  • 07.22.2009 6:12 PM PDT

Posted by: KneeChee27
Seeing as the only thing Natal is doing is "reading" the 3D space directly in front of the scanner bar while simultaneously trying to break up the scene by interpreting color, whether or not your cat would interrupt your gaming experience depends on where your cat is located in the room and how the room is lit.

I don't care about interupting.

I just want to see my cat kill something Halo. Or beat my high score on a Natal arcade game. The thought of alien bad guys coming at your spartan in halo to be whipped aside by my cat's tail is funny to me.

  • 07.22.2009 6:21 PM PDT

"I blame canser its going slutting itself around now so are bodys act like were aging faster stupid whore of a desies" ~ GruntX

Posted by: spngefan11
Posted by: KneeChee27
Seeing as the only thing Natal is doing is "reading" the 3D space directly in front of the scanner bar while simultaneously trying to break up the scene by interpreting color, whether or not your cat would interrupt your gaming experience depends on where your cat is located in the room and how the room is lit.

I don't care about interupting.

I just want to see my cat kill something Halo. Or beat my high score on a Natal arcade game. The thought of alien bad guys coming at your spartan in halo to be whipped aside by my cat's tail is funny to me.

Chances are more likely that your cat would be mistaken for one of your limbs. Natal wouldn't be able to specifically pick out a cat unless there were a function dedicated to seeking out cat-sized and cat-shaped elements in your room.

  • 07.22.2009 6:28 PM PDT

Posted by: KneeChee27
Posted by: spngefan11
Posted by: KneeChee27
Seeing as the only thing Natal is doing is "reading" the 3D space directly in front of the scanner bar while simultaneously trying to break up the scene by interpreting color, whether or not your cat would interrupt your gaming experience depends on where your cat is located in the room and how the room is lit.

I don't care about interupting.

I just want to see my cat kill something Halo. Or beat my high score on a Natal arcade game. The thought of alien bad guys coming at your spartan in halo to be whipped aside by my cat's tail is funny to me.

Chances are more likely that your cat would be mistaken for one of your limbs. Natal wouldn't be able to specifically pick out a cat unless there were a function dedicated to seeking out cat-sized and cat-shaped elements in your room.
So much for improvising melee weapons too then...


Natal fails then.

  • 07.22.2009 6:30 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Intrepid Mythic Member
  • gamertag: P3P5I
  • user homepage:

Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: KneeChee27
Seeing as the only thing Natal is doing is "reading" the 3D space directly in front of the scanner bar while simultaneously trying to break up the scene by interpreting color, whether or not your cat would interrupt your gaming experience depends on where your cat is located in the room and how the room is lit.


I disagree. I think what you are saying is the camera is only "inferring" in 2-D space, while that is not the case. Natal uses a monochrome CMOS sensor, which basically means it sees its environment in 3-D space, in any ambient light condition. In the unveiling of Natal, a family (or group of friends I believe) was playing a game and each person continually got in eachother's way (blocked an arm, etc.) but Natal continued to perform well.

Source

  • 07.22.2009 6:42 PM PDT

"I blame canser its going slutting itself around now so are bodys act like were aging faster stupid whore of a desies" ~ GruntX

Posted by: P3P5I
Posted by: KneeChee27
Seeing as the only thing Natal is doing is "reading" the 3D space directly in front of the scanner bar while simultaneously trying to break up the scene by interpreting color, whether or not your cat would interrupt your gaming experience depends on where your cat is located in the room and how the room is lit.

I disagree. I think what you are saying is the camera is only "inferring" in 2-D space, while that is not the case. Natal uses a monochrome CMOS sensor, which basically means it sees its environment in 3-D space, in any ambient light condition. In the unveiling of Natal, a family (or group of friends I believe) was playing a game and each person continually got in eachother's way (blocked an arm, etc.) but Natal continued to perform well.

Source

I can't comment other than to say that, like all public demonstrations, that which is being demoed is being done so in as ideal a setting as the developer can arrange for it to be displayed in so as to avoid technical failure or bugs.

CMOS imaging technology can only do so much to pick out objects in 3D space, and, while ambient light is mostly ignored by the hardware being used to collect data for sensor like that, it still relies heavily on the signals that it is emitting itself. As with any other piece of technology, if these signals are interrupted (and they can be interrupted, as they're only beams of light), then the technology falls back to software which is designed to fill in the gaps.

If the software is unable to interpret the information being sent by the hardware, then it either makes a best guess or does nothing. With things like the human body, it's easy to guess what is and isn't an arm -- especially with a system designed specifically to track human bodies -- but if that human arm is draped in long, dangling jewelry or extremely baggy clothing, it becomes more difficult for the software to distinguish as a human arm.

In this same light, is something appears to be more arm-, or leg-, or head-, or torso-like than the user's actual arm (or leg, or head, or torso), then the software will treat that as the limb in question.

  • 07.22.2009 7:03 PM PDT

"Don't you know?...Spartans never die".

They should senn an infared gun an then you could have a UNSC gun range on your tv

  • 07.22.2009 7:19 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Intrepid Mythic Member
  • gamertag: P3P5I
  • user homepage:

Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: KneeChee27

I can't comment other than to say that, like all public demonstrations, that which is being demoed is being done so in as ideal a setting as the developer can arrange for it to be displayed in so as to avoid technical failure or bugs.

CMOS imaging technology can only do so much to pick out objects in 3D space, and, while ambient light is mostly ignored by the hardware being used to collect data for sensor like that, it still relies heavily on the signals that it is emitting itself. As with any other piece of technology, if these signals are interrupted (and they can be interrupted, as they're only beams of light), then the technology falls back to software which is designed to fill in the gaps.

If the software is unable to interpret the information being sent by the hardware, then it either makes a best guess or does nothing. With things like the human body, it's easy to guess what is and isn't an arm -- especially with a system designed specifically to track human bodies -- but if that human arm is draped in long, dangling jewelry or extremely baggy clothing, it becomes more difficult for the software to distinguish as a human arm.

In this same light, is something appears to be more arm-, or leg-, or head-, or torso-like than the user's actual arm (or leg, or head, or torso), then the software will treat that as the limb in question.


I understand. It seems like your main problem is when the system runs into these gaps, and guesses itself. I think you probably shouldn't wear baggy clothes when playing Natal (for an ideal situation), but I doubt neither of us can comment on if Natal can identify a person's leg inside of baggy jeans, that's up to the developers. I agree however that it is more difficult to identify that body part, though we don't know if it poses a problem for Natal.

I don't know what other object in your house that's close to your arm would be mistaken for your actual arm. I guess I trust in the software to correctly identify body parts. Most of the time it actually will correctly identify the correct body parts.

I think we lost our argument in these threads. So can Natal actually work for games like Reach? It seems like all you've addressed were small moments where the system would run into problems, but overall could it work?

  • 07.22.2009 7:20 PM PDT

DMH | TMA | Blueprint

Can't be too careful with your company. I can feel the devil walking next to me.

Posted by: P3P5I
There's a thread about this half a page down, come on now...

I assume you're talking about mine...



How first and foremost: have any of you read the Natal article in the latest OXM?
If you haven't the basic jist is that they talk about Peter Molyneux's Milo and Kate. Natal uses multiple cameras to create a set of 3D raw data. Then the games use that raw data to do what they need them to do.

Halo is such a complex 3D space that Natal would not be able to use it for a 3D space.

Now another example that Natal can do is flip through menus, like a photo on the internet where a person is flipping through Netflix movies. Halo Reach could use this feature to flip through menus.

  • 07.22.2009 7:37 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Intrepid Mythic Member
  • gamertag: P3P5I
  • user homepage:

Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: Karl2177
Halo is such a complex 3D space that Natal would not be able to use it for a 3D space.


How do you know?

  • 07.22.2009 7:52 PM PDT

You are lame...

I can almost guaranty that Halo: Reach will not support Natal because it is going to be a blockbuster game. Bungie isn't going to gamble on how many people are willing to buy Natal, considering it will probably be >$150. Besides I don't think that Natal will add that much to Halo's gameplay, I think it will just take away from gameplay.

  • 07.22.2009 7:56 PM PDT

"I blame canser its going slutting itself around now so are bodys act like were aging faster stupid whore of a desies" ~ GruntX

Posted by: P3P5I
I think we lost our argument in these threads. So can Natal actually work for games like Reach? It seems like all you've addressed were small moments where the system would run into problems, but overall could it work?

In an ideal setting, where the room is devoid of obstructions (for example, objects with unexpected reflective properties, harsh or abnormal lighting, moving scenery such as fans, etc.), where the user(s) is/are wearing non-reflective, form-fitting clothing, and where the programming side of things is tight enough to differentiate the movements of somebody using Natal, I would say that Natal has potential for performing tasks that are possibly as advanced as the combat scene in this video.

Similarly, replacing simple, single-button actions with 3D motions is also possible (though, there is the danger with overusing real-world actions to the point where the controls feel "wonky" or the player feels bogged down). So, for example, tossing a grenade could be performed by pitching ones arm; however, motions, like pulling an invisible trigger, are probably too subtle to be picked up.

As far as being implemented in Reach is concerned, it's 100% possible. Whether or not it is implemented successfully in Reach is another question altogether. Using Natal to completely replace the controller would be, in my opinion, unlikely. It would both alienate many fans of the Halo franchise while also providing a very random, jittery foundation for gameplay (which, at it's core, is moving, aiming, and shooting).

As is more likely the case, Natal's facial and voice recognition software would probably be put to greater use than it's 3D motion capture software. If 3D motion capture were used at all, it would probably be limited to low-intensity parts of the game where the player doesn't need to worry about accuracy or timing.

  • 07.22.2009 8:04 PM PDT

Don't get cocky now!

Let's just hope it's not as epic fail as the Nintendo Power Glove...

  • 07.22.2009 9:27 PM PDT

  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
  • of 2