- ghostvirus
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- Exalted Mythic Member
Posted by; A random forum poster
Posted by; ghostvirus
This apple is brown, and rotten. This orange on the other hand, is in relatively average shape. So the orange is definitely the preferable option. ----------You can't compare apples and oranges. You're so dumb.
Are the main characters of Halo: Reach, indirectly referenced in preexistent Halo fiction? Are they a part of a second generation of Spartan IIs? Was ILBs, and Nicoles backstory retroconned to conviently create a new generation of Spartan IIs, that weren't tied up in other conflicts? Stick around, if you want my perspective, and more importantly why I have that perspective.
Heres something I stumbled on, at Halo wiki.
It is also stated in Fall of Reach that there are 25 Spartans present during the Battle of Reach, however later it states that there are 30 Spartans present. This number is maintained in Halo: First Strike.
The most current count of Spartans comes from Halo Wars timeline that states that 25 of the 28 remaining Spartans were present at Reach. The remaining three Spartans are generally assumed to be Grey Team, whose status at that time is still unknown. This information also confirms that since the Augmentation of the Spartans five had since gone missing or had died. Samuel, Kurt, Randall, and Sheila are part of this count, with the final Spartan likely the one too wounded to continue active duty.
Bungie, along with Eric S. Trautmann, have said that these discrepancies only seem to be errors and that everything will be made clear in time
If some one can provide exact quotes, so that I can get closure regarding the exact wording in the novels, that would be great.
Now don't be distracted by the part at the bottom. There were originally 33 Spartan IIs, five of them were called out of duty, and are accounted for.
The part you should pay attention to, is the discrepancy involving the amount of Spartans at Reach. Halo Wars states 25, out of 28 remaining, original Spartan IIs came to Reach. The three not at Reach, are gray team. Other parts indicate 30 Spartan IIs fought on reach. There is a logical problem here.How could 30 Spartan IIs have fought on Reach, if only 28 of the original Spartan IIs were alive at the time Reach takes place, further more when we know three others were somewhere else.
Lets do simple arithmetic.
30 (Spartan IIs fighting on Reach) - 25 ( original Spartan IIs on Reach) = 5 Spartan IIs, that could not of been from Masterchiefs generation, that fought on Reach. Five enigmatic Spartan IIs. That have existed as an enigma, since Fall of Reach was released in 2001.
So is it possible we may solve this enigma? Is it possible we will learn about these five Spartan IIs, that do not seem to be part of the original generation ? Look at the banner at the top. There are five Spartans. Coincidence?
As further evidence ,watch the trailer, two Spartans identify themselves as having a call sign higher than 150. The amount of potential canidates from the original SP II group. No Spartan in official canon has previously broken this rule. Further more they identify themselves as, Sierra. Clearly they are not Spartan IIIs. Who identify themselves by using the first letter of their company name, followed by a call sign. Example: G123
I think, Bungie has retroconned these enigmatic 5 spartan IIs, as well as the second class of Spartan IIs mentioned in both ILBs and Nicoles backstory. Because it was convient to have a new group of Spartan IIs that weren't already tied up.
Heres the timeline as I see it;
2531, Hasely puts the second class of Spartan IIs on hold. Funding was being redirected to Mjolnir, and Sp IIIs. Additionally she couldn't find enough canidates that met her standards.
In 2537, ONI began funding a rebirth of the Sp II project. That would remain top secret. After the first squad of Sp- IIIs failed expectations. Delivering both a smaller force then expected, and dieing within a year of being operational. ONI realizes the value in the mass produced, disposable nature of Spartan IIIs. But also recognizes the resilence the Spartan IIs have continued to show over the years. And concludes that it makes tactical sense to have a large disposable force of super soliders, in addition to a smaller, more reliable force for cov-ops.
The second generation of Sp IIs, recycles un-used canidates from Alpha and Beta company,. Which would give it a population of 315 candidates. The second generation of Spartan IIs are then conscripted in 2537, as stated in ILBs.
Alpha Company: Of the 497 Spartans, only 300 were conscripted.
497- 300 = 197
Beta Company: 418 candidates were selected in 2539, but only 300 were conscripted.
418 - 300 = 118
197 + 118 = 315
315 + 150 = 465
The highest Sp II call sign would then be 465. This accounts for Sierra 259, 320 from the teaser trailer, AND Nicole, 458.
Fact: Nicoles call sign is said to be 458 .
465 - 458 = 7.
Now before you guys attack me, saying ILBs is not canon, and that neither is Nicole.
First and for most, let me say, ILBs states the second generation of Spartan IIs were conscripted in 2537. Nicoles backstory would make her six at that time. The age the original Spartan IIs were at conscription. So why are these two works of non canon, consistent? Besides that, lets look at the facts.
I cannot find one resource that states Nicoles backstory is non-canon. This is what the weekly update that first mentioned Nicole states:
Reason for creation:
Initially, team Ninja wanted, and asked very politely, for Master Chief. Well, we balked at that. Master Chief is busy, fictionally speaking. We left him at the end of Halo 2, involved in a very large scale galactic conflict with world-ending repercussions. Fictionally speaking, he just wasn't available for fisticuffs.
But we loved the idea of seeing a Spartan fight, unarmed. You have to figure they'd be pretty serious pugilistic contenders right? Half ton of bio-mechanically enhanced armor-clad uber-trained soldiering nightmare? Has to have at least a decent right hook.
So we created Spartan 458, Nicole. And she's quite a lady. If you define "lady" as ferociously violent killing machine.
If Bungie wasn't concerned with their DOA 4 character following Halo canon, why wouldn't they just give Team Ninja Masterchief? Why would they create a new Spartan, because Masterchief was fictionally busy? Why not do the same thing they did with Firefight, and Johnson? Say, who cares, lets throw Masterchief in DOA 4 even if it makes no sense.
The update later states;
Here's a list of things Nicole, Spartan 458 is NOT .
She's not a character who's ever been described in other Halo fiction.
She's not a character from our next project.
She's not one of the Spartans from Fall of Reach.
She's not a character from the Halo movie.
She's not returning my calls. I blame time bubbles.
In short, she's a fictional means to an end that we gave careful thought, but with a jaunty tip of our hat and a wry wink in the general direction of levity.
One definetly could say, they only really created her to explain why a Spartan would be in the 21st century. But lets go on. But weither Nicole is official canon or nor is never directly stated. Bungie does however indirectly refer to her backstory as "Halo fiction".
Now, following Halo 2s release it WAS stated ILBS was not canon. One Specific case:
HaloStoryPage: If you were to define what is and isn't Halo story canon, would the I Love Bees stuff make the cut?
Joseph Staten:The Bees would not make the cut.
Those guys basically did their own thing with very little Bungie input (save for massaging and approving the initial plot-treatment). While we helped define the boundaries of their fiction, we let them do what they thought best. And I think the game turned out great.
Specificly two pieces of information should be taken away from this. 1. Bungie helped iron out the story of ILBs, and set the boundaries. But didn't hold their hands. 2. At this time ILBs was not canon.
However, here is a later interview;
HSP: The dialogue from the Halo 3 trailer bears obvious similarity to the Cortana Letters from the early Halo days. Given that they have been discouraged as canon over the years, are they now to be afforded greater consideration? Additionally, the Letters themselves were strongly reminiscent of the messages from Durandal, the rampant AI from Marathon. What are your thoughts on "rampancy," AIs in the Halo universe, and Cortana specifically?
JS: Canon is tricky (see my controversial statement about I Love Bees - believe it or not, we're actually working to answer the is it, or isn't it? question right now!). The Halo story has as many loose threads as influences. And we do our best to sew the former into canon as we find them - are reminded of their potential. The Cortana Letters are an excellent example of this phenomenon. For all sorts of reasons, they lingered in canonical purgatory for years. But when we needed some compelling dialog to remind folks what's at stake in Halo3: Bam! Newfound utility! Alas, I'd have to say that, as of now, the only canonized parts of the letters are the fragments we pulled for use in the announcement trailer.
First off, the interview takes place just after Halo 3 is announced. It occurs years after Bungie says ILBs is not canon. Specificly Joseph references the earlier interview, and states they are now deciding weither ILBs is canon or not. But beyond that, is it possible this pro- retrocon attitude was applied to ILBs and Nicoles backstory? Was it possible Bungie realized it was convient to have new Spartan IIs, without previous ties?
Now you get decided, and all we can do is wait and find out.
Im going to make another prediction: Several people are not going to read this, and will say something along the lines of; "ILBs and Nicole are not canon. you dum dur.."
[Edited on 07.23.2009 3:02 AM PDT]