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  • Subject: Why classes?
Subject: Why classes?

Posted by: Ninja Walrus
The gameplay will never be perfect or "right," there will always be room for improvement, even in the smallest way.

Yes, but 9 years of work on one type of game play is a little much don't you think? And besides, this game isn't part of the Halo trilogy; so why should it be the same as the others?

Also, having classes may not make a game realistic (see Team Fortress 2) but the majority of class-based games, or games that allow you to choose your starting weapon tend to try to take the realistic approach (see Battlefield where you have classes, Rainbow Six where you have modifiable loadouts, Call of Duty, etc.)
Which would set Halo apart if it was an unrealistic, class based game. Which defeats those arguments that say that it would make Halo like CoD.


Posted by: flamedude
I can see classes being more trouble than they are worth in Halo. Perhaps classes will be implemented into the Campaign, but I hope Multiplayer retains its static gameplay. Everyone starts the same, everyone dies the same.

Care to expand upon that argument?

And for your last statement, nobody dies the same, in any game.

[Edited on 08.04.2009 11:10 PM PDT]

  • 08.04.2009 11:09 PM PDT
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No sniper class = No camping.
Thats how I see it.
I dont know though,
as I said in all my posts, the map layout is what will decide how the multiplayer plays out,
Like today, when I was playing a game on Orbital, we were camping, but not how you would normaly describe, like taking hold of the top of the upper stairs and upper lift shat corridor and attempting to hold out with just BRs, we lost, but put up a good fight, as long as the camping is like that rather than sort of,
OMGWTFBBQISPAWNEDTHENGOTSNIPED???!!!!
I would like classes, however then you look at Battlefront, a real class game.
CoD is not a real class game, it is just mucked up!
Anyway, that has never had camping issues, BUT, that doesnt have anyway of changing or picking up new guns, this is real classes, you pick it, and you stick with it,
In Halo classes you wopuld simply pick a class which favoured the map.
Me, I always go with SMGs, or whatever, in any game, I dont care about shotguns, snipers or whatever, just a good down to earth Warfighter, thats my pick of the lot.
Anyway, in all my CoD games, I have never seen any real campalation, nor in Halo, (well except for that time in living dead involving two machine gun turrets and a back to back stand...)
So yeah, I see it as, aslong as the combat stays versatile and very complete and flowing and actiony, its fine.
Although larger games would be welcome...
-K-

  • 08.05.2009 12:50 PM PDT

Snipers can be balanced through map layout.

Posted by: Kalriq
No sniper class = No camping.
Thats how I see it.
I dont know though,
as I said in all my posts, the map layout is what will decide how the multiplayer plays out,
Like today, when I was playing a game on Orbital, we were camping, but not how you would normaly describe, like taking hold of the top of the upper stairs and upper lift shat corridor and attempting to hold out with just BRs, we lost, but put up a good fight, as long as the camping is like that rather than sort of,
OMGWTFBBQISPAWNEDTHENGOTSNIPED???!!!!
I would like classes, however then you look at Battlefront, a real class game.
CoD is not a real class game, it is just mucked up!
Anyway, that has never had camping issues, BUT, that doesnt have anyway of changing or picking up new guns, this is real classes, you pick it, and you stick with it,
In Halo classes you wopuld simply pick a class which favoured the map.
Me, I always go with SMGs, or whatever, in any game, I dont care about shotguns, snipers or whatever, just a good down to earth Warfighter, thats my pick of the lot.
Anyway, in all my CoD games, I have never seen any real campalation, nor in Halo, (well except for that time in living dead involving two machine gun turrets and a back to back stand...)
So yeah, I see it as, aslong as the combat stays versatile and very complete and flowing and actiony, its fine.
Although larger games would be welcome...
-K-

  • 08.05.2009 12:54 PM PDT
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Then I see it as sn obvious way forward.
The map layout really is the deciding factor here I would say.
-K-

  • 08.05.2009 12:59 PM PDT

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Posted by: disgruntledfan2
Posted by: Wolverfrog
No matter how neatly the argument is set out, I'll never approve of classes in Halo. If you don't like the weapon you spawn with, pick up another one.


I don't know. Halo Reach may already be based on classes. That giant Mech suit guy at the top doesn't look like a traditional Spartan Mark III or IV armor. Kind of looks like a Heavy.


lmfao...it's an elite

  • 08.05.2009 1:02 PM PDT

It doesn't look anything like an Elite...

  • 08.05.2009 1:50 PM PDT

Let thy be killed by my blade

I stopped reading after you said cod wasn't a camping fest. Such crap. It is camping central and this would turn halo into that too.

  • 08.05.2009 2:14 PM PDT
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Posted by: FatalLiquid
I stopped reading after you said cod wasn't a camping fest. Such crap. It is camping central and this would turn halo into that too.
How so?

  • 08.05.2009 2:16 PM PDT

I think it's a great but it just wouldn't be Halo...

  • 08.05.2009 2:50 PM PDT

One does not simply walk into Halo.

Posted by: MayheM96
I think it's a great but it just wouldn't be Halo...

Of course it would be Halo, the story's not changing.

  • 08.05.2009 2:51 PM PDT

Multiplayer would be too effortless Halo multiplayer is now a pretty old system. Haveing team deathmatch/ ffa/ ctf etc. but with the classic weapon pick up system. The weapons like snipers, shotguns, rockets, fuel rod, LMG's, energy swords, grav hammers etc. they are all power weapons. it would be rediculous if you could spawn with them CoD was made so it can balance classes into gameplay but halo is meant to be played with weapons placed on the map.

  • 08.05.2009 3:27 PM PDT
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I think being a sandbox game Halo can't be limited to classes. As a sandbox game I see no reason why Halo can't have a class based game mode.

  • 08.05.2009 3:30 PM PDT

You people forget Halo CE it was what made FPS's popular. Also anyone that is Mlg pro, semi pro or is really good will massacre everyone hands down if they can spawn with classes. the only way this would work is if it was marines vs. marines multiplayer.

  • 08.05.2009 3:35 PM PDT

I hate the BR

No then it wouldnt be halo I play halo for that very reason that you have to find your gun when i dont want to play that way then I play call of duty

  • 08.05.2009 3:51 PM PDT

I am so -blam!- sick of this. READ THE GOD DAMNED OP!! I TYPED IT FOR A REASON!

Posted by: SPAZ 63094
No then it wouldnt be halo I play halo for that very reason that you have to find your gun when i dont want to play that way then I play call of duty

  • 08.05.2009 8:02 PM PDT

Sorry for my language guys. I acted badly. I was just having a bad day.

  • 08.05.2009 10:17 PM PDT
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-blam!- Zombies is a campfest.
CoD multiplayer on Banzai is a campfest.
CoD on any other map is not a campfest.
THIS WOULD NOT CANCEL OUT WEAPON PLACEMENT ON MAPS.
REAL power weapons would be fought over still.
-K-

  • 08.06.2009 10:57 AM PDT
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I AM FED UP OF PEOPLE SAYING ITS NOT COD.
DO YOU HAVE NO IMAGINATION OR ARE YOU JUST TRYING TO MAKE A COHERANT SENTANCE?
I have seen that 1,000 times, and guess what.
All you ever say is classes would ruin it.
No reason, nothing, just maybe some mumbled CoD reference.
You actually suck at reasons.
-K-

  • 08.06.2009 11:01 AM PDT

I am talking about CoD4, not CoDW@W because that is a camp fest. Not CoD4 though.

But for you fanboys that don't want classes, listen to this:

CLASSES WILL NOT WORK IN CURRENT HALO GAMEPLAY. That is because the current Halo gameplay is unbalanced.

But classes are possible and this is why:

First off is gun balancing. We can't have weapons that balance each other out, we need weapons that are self-balancing.

This might be a strange concept, so let me explain: Self balancing weapons are weapons that have an equal amount of pros and cons. Therefore, there is no "best weapon" in the game. Why? Because every weapon can seem like the best weapon in the game if you are good with it.

Some simple ways to balance power weapons:
BR-Single shot
Rocket launcher - Rocket veers off course after a certain flight time
Sniper- Increase spread severely when shooting from the hip

Second is map layout. Current map layout isn't that great. But just for the sake of example, I will use sniping positions.

Sniping positions need to balanced so a sniper can't just camp there and kill everyone. So this is how you would balance one type of position out:

This position has a lot of cover, and a pretty large view. However, there is only one way out. That also happens to be the only way in. This way in cannot be covered by the sniper very well. So an opponent with a SMG can come in and kill the sniper.

The other type of position has a large viewing area, a lot of ways in and out, but very little cover.

  • 08.06.2009 11:03 AM PDT
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As long as I can get close enough to T-bag a sniper through map layout the map is made well.
-K-

  • 08.06.2009 11:06 AM PDT

That's too close.

  • 08.06.2009 2:25 PM PDT

A soldiers sacrifice is never forgotten

Posted by: TW InKoGnIto
DISCLAIMER: If this were implemented, The multiplayer would be split between original Halo style and a new style that supports classes.

And the rocket launcher would be the only weapon not allowed as a default spawn weapon for classes.

Pinnacle of balance. Halo can do the same.



People have always been complaining that the weapon they spawn with is not a good enough weapon to defend themselves with.

Hence, classes.

Classes allow players to spawn with whichever weapon they want. That way, if they need a sniper, they can spawn with one. If they need a shotgun, they can spawn with one, etc.

This may seem a lot like Call of Duty, but a way to keep Halo similar is to put weapons on the map.

So if you spawned with an SMG, but suddenly the situation turned into on where you needed a sniper, you could go find the sniper on the map.

Most people think that this would turn into a "camping fest." I disagree. How could it turn into a "camping fest" when games that already have classes, are not like that? Players still need to get points. Players still need to acquire strategical positions.

However most people (Including me) do not want classes, but I think that this is a way for us to have classes, but still keep the basic Halo essentials intact. MLG Cheehwawa made a thread in which he supports a class system for Halo.

However, in his version the classes come already set up for you. And this is where I think he made a mistake

I am a person who loves to have options, and his version just gives you 5 set versions. My idea will let you set up your own classes to your choosing:

UNSC
-Assault rifle*
-Battle rifle**
-SMG
-Light machine gun (Hopefully. Effective at medium range only)
-8-gauge shotgun***
-Rocket launcher
-Sniper rifle

Covenant
-Plasma rifle*
-Spiker
-Needler
-Carbine
-A Covenant light machine gun (Hopefully. Effective at medium range only)
-Plasma shotgun*
-Fuel Rod cannon
-Brute shot
-Beam rifle

Side Arms
-Magnum*
-Plasma Pistol*
-Mauler


Then would come equipment/grenades


Grenades
-Frag
-Plasma

Special Grenades
-Spike
-Flame

Equipment - One only
-Bubble shield
-Regenerator
-Power drain
-Flare
-Deployable cover
-Auto turret (Lasts only 30 seconds)
-Radar Jammer

For all the weapons with * next to them, please refer to MLG Cheehwawa's thread 1, thread 2 and to another thread of mine.
Posted by:MLG Cheehwawa
I would not be opposed to a class based system. It would fail terribly on the current style Halo maps, but if the game was made larger scale, with more emphasis on skill and teamwork, then I think classes could work well. It would be a different genre of game for the Halo universe, like Halo Wars was, but I think it would be a nice change (despite Halo 1 being my favorite game of all time, by far).

It wouldn't work with Halo 1/2/3 style maps, but with larger more realistic maps, it would work, like it does in Battlefront, Battlefield, Crysis, etc. -- you never see camping in those games unless you/your teammates don't go take them out after they die. It's easy to see where you die from, just spawn as a sniper and go after them. If they kill you, they are simply a better sniper.

Posted by: MLG Cheehwawa
Posted by: BaKPaK o
No classes are call of duty stuff. If you made classes it would no longer be like halo
This logic is FLAWED.

First off, COD isn't a real class-based game. Something like Team Fortress 2 is a real class-based game (the sort that Inkognito is suggesting).

Second off, if adding classes would make Halo into COD/Battlefield/Battlefront/Whatever, then NOT having classes has already made Halo into Quake and all other FPSes which came before it!


FAQ

Posted by: Kealan 02
Absolutely No. Halo is not CoD, and we want to keep it that way. The reason the CoD classes work is because they aren't using the same weapons as us. In Halo, there are certain small, less powerful weapons, and then there are power weapons.

Even if you made it so you could only choose power weapons, everyone would spawn with BR's and maulers and then just carry on as they normally do, fighting for the power weapons.

You people are so short sighted. I am NOT talking about implementing this in Halo 1, 2, or 3. I am talking about maybe implementing this in a totally knew game where all the weapons are balanced.

Just for the sake of example, look at Infinity wards maps for CoD4. They are the pinnacle of balance.

On almost every map, you can dominate as a sniper, but somebody with an SMG can always take you out. You can use an assault rifle effectively, but there is always the light machine gunner there to get you.

So what if a sniper is camping? THAT IS THE POINT OF A SNIPER. Even if a sniper is camping, you shoot a rocket at them.

Basically what I am saying is that if Bungie balances the maps out, something I am confident they can do, there will be no problem.

If everyone spawning with rockets and snipers is your concern, look at CoD4, W@W and other class based games. Does everyone spawn with rockets and snipers? No. Some do, but that is because they are good with those weapons.

Why would Halo: Reach be any different?


But if there where classes, just think of how many brilliant H3 game-types would fail. Such as all the Robbers in a Cops and Robbers game type spawning with Rocket Launchers.
Take the hint: CUSTOM games.

You can change the settings so people spawn with a default weapon.

The point of halo is that all you bring to the battlefield is your AR, a pair of grenades and your own experience. No we are not going to make CoD and Halo the same game so you only have to buy one. Halo is Halo, CoD is Cod now anyone who still wants classes go buy "Gears of Halo Theft Auto 5: Modern Warfare"
Why would this change?

People would still go in with a pair of grenades and their experience. Expect that now, it is a weapon that they like and are good with.

This would stop a lot of team killing and frustration. Now if someone is a good sniper, he/she no longer needs to wait for it to spawn after some incompetent teammate picks the only sniper up.

IMPORTANT:

You guys seem to be thinking that Halo: Reach will have the same gameplay, same weapons, and same health system.

Classes WILL NOT WORK with Halo 3 weapons or maps. That is why it is up to Bungie to BALANCE the weapons and maps so someone who spawns with an assault rifle or an SMG will not fall prey to one with a sniper, etc.

I am so sick of repeating this.

What if you could only spawn with the following:

UNSC
-Assault rifle
-Battle rifle
-SMG
-Light machine gun (Hopefully. Effective at medium range only)
-8-gauge shotgun

Covenant
-Plasma rifle
-Spiker
-Needler
-Carbine
-A Covenant light machine gun (Hopefully. Effective at medium range only)
-Plasma shotgun
-Brute shot
-Energy Sword

Side arms
-Magnum
-Plasma Pistol
-Mauler

And grenades, and maybe equipment.

Snipers, and rockets, and any other "power" weapons cannot be spawned with, but are placed on the maps, and players fight for control over them.

Is that better?


THERE IS MORE TO THE OP IN MY FIRST POST DOWN.

DO NOT REPLY UNTIL YOU HAVE READ EVERYTHING


Yes it would be a campfest, you said that other games arent a campfest that have classes, but i will only say this once.

HALO IS NOT CoD. its a totally different combat system. it wouldent work.

/thread

  • 08.06.2009 2:28 PM PDT

A soldiers sacrifice is never forgotten

Your suggesting that they make Halo like a realistic shooter, which it isnt, Halo will never be a realistic shooter because then it wouldent be Halo, Halo is a unique series of games that has its own style and format, this is why its raised the bar for all shooters. If they did what your suggesting they do, it would just be another battlefield/CoD hybrid.

OP, answer this question, Why do people play halo. Its because its a unique FPS that doesent rely on taking the same features from other games. If we wanted to keep the halo gameplay and just put classes in then Halo : reach, would be one of the biggest fails ever. Simply because of the weapon balance. Say it was a CQB map, everyone would just camp with shotguns, Say it was a normal symetrical map, everyone would use snipers or rockets, Halo CANNOT function in a clased based system unless bungie chages the WHOLE concept and gameplay of halo, If they "balanced" everything in your way it would be just like CoD or Battlefield and why would you want it to be like that?

We already have CoD and Battlefield, we dont need to make halo a clone of them

  • 08.06.2009 2:30 PM PDT

Posted by: joey1859
Your suggesting that they make Halo like a realistic shooter, which it isnt, Halo will never be a realistic shooter because then it wouldent be Halo, Halo is a unique series of games that has its own style and format, this is why its raised the bar for all shooters. If they did what your suggesting they do, it would just be another battlefield/CoD hybrid.

How will it not be Halo? Everything will be the same, the story, the style you play, Master chief, Reach, etc.

Will you be able to sprint? No. Will you be able to aim down the sights of your guns? No.

Halo will keep its format. If you had read the OP you will see that besides balancing the weapons and maps, the only thing that would be different would be that you could spawn with your preferred weapon.

Halo raises the bar for other shooters by being the best it can be. 9 years ago, that was having Quake-style gameplay. Now it is something else. 9 years of one style of game play is long enough.

OP, answer this question, Why do people play halo. Its because its a unique FPS that doesent rely on taking the same features from other games. If we wanted to keep the halo gameplay and just put classes in then Halo : reach, would be one of the biggest fails ever. Simply because of the weapon balance. Say it was a CQB map, everyone would just camp with shotguns, Say it was a normal symetrical map, everyone would use snipers or rockets, Halo CANNOT function in a clased based system unless bungie chages the WHOLE concept and gameplay of halo, If they "balanced" everything in your way it would be just like CoD or Battlefield and why would you want it to be like that?

We already have CoD and Battlefield, we dont need to make halo a clone of them

Have even played CoD4? Please give an honest answer because if you had you would not be saying what you are saying. On Shipment, very few people spawn with a shotgun. On a larger map, very few people spawn with snipers or rockets.

On Halos smallest map (Which I think is Guardian) there is one shotgun, I almost never experience a game on that map where the shotgun is fought over, or used extensively. Why it change?

Why can't you accept that maybe this would work and improve game play? Stop saying that everyone would spawn with the same thing because they wouldn't. Look at other games with classes, it doesn't happen. Why would it happen with Halo?

  • 08.06.2009 2:43 PM PDT

Posted by: TW InKoGnIto
I am talking about CoD4, not CoDW@W because that is a camp fest. Not CoD4 though.

But for you fanboys that don't want classes, listen to this:

CLASSES WILL NOT WORK IN CURRENT HALO GAMEPLAY. That is because the current Halo gameplay is unbalanced.

But classes are possible and this is why:

First off is gun balancing. We can't have weapons that balance each other out, we need weapons that are self-balancing.

This might be a strange concept, so let me explain: Self balancing weapons are weapons that have an equal amount of pros and cons. Therefore, there is no "best weapon" in the game. Why? Because every weapon can seem like the best weapon in the game if you are good with it.

Some simple ways to balance power weapons:
BR-Single shot
Rocket launcher - Rocket veers off course after a certain flight time
Sniper- Increase spread severely when shooting from the hip

Second is map layout. Current map layout isn't that great. But just for the sake of example, I will use sniping positions.

Sniping positions need to balanced so a sniper can't just camp there and kill everyone. So this is how you would balance one type of position out:

This position has a lot of cover, and a pretty large view. However, there is only one way out. That also happens to be the only way in. This way in cannot be covered by the sniper very well. So an opponent with a SMG can come in and kill the sniper.

The other type of position has a large viewing area, a lot of ways in and out, but very little cover.


So you basically want to change the entire weapon sandbox in halo?

I'm sorry but "self balanced" weapons would ruin halo. When you get a power weapon, you should have an advantage. Fighting for weapons also increases the pace of the game and makes undesirable areas worth going to. There's much more strategy involved when you have to time power weapons and fight for the best position on the map, where as in games like COD its all about getting to the best position and there's no need to move about the map.

Oh and you obviously don't know much about map making. A sniper position with one way in is far easier to defend than a position that allows for multi point invasions.

  • 08.06.2009 2:47 PM PDT