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  • Subject: Rebalancing the BR (v2)
Subject: Rebalancing the BR (v2)

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Posted by: cpt falcon911
I respectfully disagree with your halo ce comment. If the person using the pistol at mid range is completely bad yes you can kill him with a shotgun. That is no different than in Halo 3, ive done that many times in Halo 3.
Its impossible to kill with the Shotty at midrange because the pellets dissappear very quickly. In Halo 1, you could kill someone who is standing on top of one of the bases of Hang Em High while you're on the other side of the map (about 80 meters away) using the Shotgun, provided you are good with it and they are bad at strafing and shooting back. This is impossible in Halo 3 because the pellets dissapear.

  • 08.02.2009 5:46 PM PDT

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Posted by: MLG Cheehwawa
Posted by: cpt falcon911
I respectfully disagree with your halo ce comment. If the person using the pistol at mid range is completely bad yes you can kill him with a shotgun. That is no different than in Halo 3, ive done that many times in Halo 3.
Its impossible to kill with the Shotty at midrange because the pellets dissappear very quickly. In Halo 1, you could kill someone who is standing on top of one of the bases of Hang Em High while you're on the other side of the map (about 80 meters away) using the Shotgun, provided you are good with it and they are bad at strafing and shooting back. This is impossible in Halo 3 because the pellets dissapear.


I am in no way saying that the Halo ce shotgun had no range. But it would have to be an extraordinary circumstance to come across someone that bad at aiming. (like you said they would have to be bad at strafing and shooting back)

  • 08.02.2009 5:50 PM PDT

I got an idea. Take it out completely, and put in the Halo: CE pistol. Solved.

  • 08.02.2009 5:54 PM PDT
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Posted by: arachnid223
ya but everbody uses controller mods for there AR and end up killing people far away anyways.I would never use a controller mod because they are for cheap losers who can't use the BR correctly.


Controller mods for the AR...what?

This is a very nice thread. It is well constructed and your points are well thought out. I would be in favor of slightly decreasing the power of the BR (preferably in clip size and spread) and decreasing the power of the carbine (again in clip size).

[Edited on 08.02.2009 6:18 PM PDT]

  • 08.02.2009 6:16 PM PDT

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Posted by: EyeInAPie
I got an idea. Take it out completely, and put in the Halo: CE pistol. Solved.


One the Halo CE magnum is more powerful than the BR and migt create more inbalance

Two many of us have suggested a BR that works similarly to the Magnum with it being a single shot weapon rather than the burst fire weapon we currently have, with this change to the firing mode of the BR, most feel the BR would take more skill aiming and decrease the effectivness of the overall weapon in many situations where todays BR is overly effective.

  • 08.02.2009 7:05 PM PDT

I agree with the OP.
Why? Because I always thought that Halo 3's two weapon system was meant to keep you from having the perfect combination of weapons.
Every weapon in Halo 3 has a set range they are deadly in, while all other ranges greatly decrease the effectiveness of the weapon. The BR/Carbine. are both deadly at mid-range, yet both are still decent at all other ranges, whereas the AR or SMG are deadly a close range, but useless past that.

A perfectly versatile weapon would be the best spawn weapon, if it was decent at all ranges, and didn't overpower anything at any range.
The BR would be the perfect spawn weapon if there were weapons available that would overpower a BR at mid-range.
In it's current state, it is too versatile for it's frequency.

Saying that the perfect spawn weapon is a perfectly versatile weapon is to say we need Sentinel Beam starts.

  • 08.02.2009 7:47 PM PDT

You are lame...

I have one question for the OP.

Can you name a game that has this perfect balance, where every weapon is only effective in its own niche?

  • 08.02.2009 8:02 PM PDT

Bungie Should just make a playlist without a br so that people will stop personally i love the br but since alot of people dont then just make a different playlist without brz so it would solve all problems.

  • 08.02.2009 8:42 PM PDT

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The BR is so overused that there is almost no variety in Halo 3 anymore. Always BR starts, almost every single playlist, both ranked and social. The BR really needs to be toned down, or removed. I wouldn't mind seeing Bungie kick it out on it's ass though. It is defiantly true that the BR makes other weapons useless, especially duals. The Ar is more balanced, but not as much as it should be. In Halo 2 the SMG was very balanced, but dominated by the BR. In halo 3, almost the exact same scenario.

  • 08.02.2009 9:13 PM PDT

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Posted by: fourshotbattleri
Bungie Should just make a playlist without a br so that people will stop personally i love the br but since alot of people dont then just make a different playlist without brz so it would solve all problems.

Or they should make 1 playlist with a BR, and call it MLG. OH WAIT

  • 08.02.2009 9:14 PM PDT

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Posted by: mubox47
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Posted by: Anti 007
I have one question for the OP.

Can you name a game that has this perfect balance, where every weapon is only effective in its own niche?
No. No game will ever have perfect balance. Does that mean we should stop trying to improve them?

  • 08.03.2009 8:11 AM PDT

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Posted by: mubox47
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Posted by: fourshotbattleri
Bungie Should just make a playlist without a br so that people will stop personally i love the br but since alot of people dont then just make a different playlist without brz so it would solve all problems.
Having no BR or mid ranged weapon would leave a massive hole in gameplay. It would honestly just suck if all you had was ARs, Duals, CQB power weapons, snipers, rockets and lasers. You would either have to run around and try to get in range all the time, or hide to avoid snipers.

  • 08.03.2009 8:13 AM PDT

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Posted by: Armeddragon77
Posted by: fourshotbattleri
Bungie Should just make a playlist without a br so that people will stop personally i love the br but since alot of people dont then just make a different playlist without brz so it would solve all problems.

Or they should make 1 playlist with a BR, and call it MLG. OH WAIT


If they actually kept BR starts to that arena I would have no complaint to be honest, that is where the competitive games are supposed to be. It's when they start forcing the BR in regular slayer that I get frustrated. Not so much cause "I can't beat a BR" or because "I'm just a lvl 30", but because the gameplay is entirely too stale with just people running around with their BR's all day.

If people want that they have an avenue for it, why does it have to be the norm? In a perfect world it would be great if they would rebalance the entire weapon spectrum, but thist requires a very significant change to general gameplay, it's not as simple as some make it out to be.

  • 08.04.2009 1:33 AM PDT

Does anyone even read these?

No offence, but I'm hoping this is a joke. :/

  • 08.04.2009 1:59 AM PDT

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Posted by: BadBall3r47
No offence, but I'm hoping this is a joke. :/


No this isn't a joke, most of us feel that the BR is over used and doesn't allow other weapons to be use effectively

there are some who have suggested toning the BR's power down from a 4 shot to a 6 shot, they believe this change will open up time for other weapons to deal more damage and possibly beat the BR at their intended range. This troubles BR lovers because they feel that their weapon has been nerfed once already and nerfing it again might make it useless

other believe in powering up the other weapons to increase their effectiveness at mid range ,enough to compete with the BR. while this solution might seems fine with everyone it could break game play by making weapons kill to fast

there are some who havethought about canging the BR firing mode from bursts to single shots like the Halo CE magnum. They believe that this BR would take more skill to use and might balance out game play enough for other weapons to be useful, while I'm in favor of this solution, I believe that this is simply not enough

I beleive that a mid range ( somewhere between 15m to 35m ) window be created where most weapons could compete with each other and kill each other within the same time frame, while most weapons could compete in this 20m window, only four weapons should and would have full access to the window, a single shot battle riffle, a improved assault riffle, the carbine, and a Halo CE plasma riffle, all are weapons that would fit and would make sense. while within the window these four weapons would fight on even ground, outside the window the weapons would either lose an advantage or gain one depending on which weapon it is and whether you are within 15m or outside of 35m from your target.

within 15m of your target the AR and a Halo CE PR will do slightly more damage ( for the AR it will go from 15-16 shot kill to a 12-14 shot, not that much more damage ). this will force the BR out of close range combat and allow vareity in close range combat

outside 35m the BR and Carbine will gain an advantage over the AR and PR by decreasing the accuracy and power of the AR and PR ( the AR will go from the 15-16 shot to a near 20 shot ) this would allow the Br and Carbine to still be able to take out power weapons like rockets ad sniper at a safe distance.

  • 08.04.2009 7:18 AM PDT
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Posted by: The EAKLE

Weapon Sets.

Weapon set 1.
-BR (toned down version).
-Carbine (toned down version).
-No other changes.
This would play just like Halo 3, but the BR and Carbine would be less powerful. That would allow CQB weapons more opportunities to be useful.
[/i]


See one of the problems with Halo 3 now is that it just takes to long to kill people. They nerfedall the weapons and just makes the game generally boring.

  • 08.04.2009 7:53 AM PDT
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The point that I'll always stand by is that the other weapons in the Halo sandbox aren't powerful enough. What leads to the BR's overuse is that the weapon sandbox is geared towards CQC, but the actual combat on maps is mid range. More times than not, you're going to see someone at mid range. That's the primary reason why I use the BR/Carbine. The other weapons just don't have that range. Here, I'll list the weapons that I (and others) will not use most of the time for (regular) mid range combat:

Assualt Rifle
Brute Shot
Energy Sword
Gravity Hammer
Mauler
Plasma Pistol
Plasma Rifle
Shotgun
SMG
Spiker Rifle

The Needler, while not a CQC weapon, is used more against people walking in straight lines or long hallways (such as the Rocket hall on The Pit, or underneath the Bubble Shield spawn on Ghost Town). Its design is unique from the other weapons, but because of its design, it isn't a weapon that you can always use effectively in mid range.

The Magnum can be used in mid range combat, however, it is underpowered. The Magnum is geared more towards CQC, meaning that it can't compete well in mid range against a BR or Carbine. Combine its less-than-decent range for a weapon to be used in mid range with a low RoF, and you've got a weapon where the average player isn't going to use for mid range combat.

The Spartan Laser can compete in mid range combat, however its pretty risky to use when you get closer to an enemy as that one one shot can mean life or death. However, you shouldn't be using it against infantry-you'd be using it against vehicles.

I've used the Rocket Launcher in mid range combat. Useful in close-mid range, but ineffectove at mid-mid range. (Mid range is a failry large range, compared to close range, so I broke it down to close-mid, mid-mid, and long-mid).

Snipers? You're better off using it at long range (its effective range), but it can be used in mid range. Against a BR player at mid range, it acts more like the Laser (one shot can mean the difference between life and death), but that's understandable, since mid range is the BR's effective range. Against an AR? If you're a good shot, then you can kill the AR player with your Sniper at mid range.

Regarding the Brute Shot, you will probably use it equally in both CQC and mid range, however, it is MUCH more effective when you've got a height difference, and when you're on the same plain as an enemy the Brute Shot isn't that great to use in mid range.

Now, keeping in mind that these are weapons used in Matchmaking (thereby excluding the Fuel Rod Cannon, Sentinel Beam) and are not support weapons, the weapon layout is the following:

Weapons more effective being used in CQC scenarios: 10 (including Brute Shot, not limited)
Weapons more effective being used at mid-range combat scenarios: 3 (including Magnum)
Weapons more effective being used at long range scenarios: 3 (both Snipers and the Laser)

See how much more weapons are made for CQC? That's one issue regarding the BR's overuse. We can keep the BR the same as it is from Halo 3, but other weapons must be more effective.

How do we make the Assualt Rifle more effective? (1) Increase its range, or possibly make it inflict slightly more damage / (2) increase clip size. There are times where I would kill that BR user at mid range with the AR if I had a few extra bullets. ONE OPTION OR THE OTHER. Having both would make it imbalanced.

How do we make the Magnum more effective? Increase RoF and increase the range slightly (from close-mid to mid-mid). The number of bullets to kill would be adjusted for balance. It would not be duel-wieldable. Similar to the Automag from ODST. This Magnum would be more effective at closer range combat than the BR (how? quicker melee, the fact that it'd have a faster RoF).

Shotgun? Sword? Mauler? Shotgun gets slightly more range OR inflicts more damage (110%), the Sword becomes a hybrid of Halo 2's and 3's. You can't swing until you've pulled it out (unlike Halo 2), but it would have farther range (more like Halo 2, but a bit less range). The Mauler would have its range increased.

See where I'm getting at? Slightly close the gap between close range combat and medium range combat (but not too much, which would lead to the overuse of other weapons or making the BR/Carbine ineffective in their range that they should be dominating). There's more than just nerfing the BR even further (which it doesn't need). Also, these changes to gameplay would make gameplay faster than Halo 3's, as people can shoot farther distances instead of running around the map and trying to initiate in CQC.

Final thing for my rant: One thing that I hate so much in discussions regarding the BR: people will use examples of the BR's use on strictly 1v1 situations and where people use only weapons (i.e. BR vs SMG at mid range, BR vs Sniper at mid range) Are you not forgetting about grenades, equipment, teammates, even map geometry? Examples I see is as if two players are fighting each on a blank slate, strictly with weapons. I assure you, most of the time THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN. 1v1 situations do, but they're always accomplanied with grenades or cover, etc.




Oh, and China? They're going to have to deal with it.

  • 08.04.2009 8:38 AM PDT

You are lame...

Over time I have come to respect the OP as a smart person with a defined set of ideals (as far as Halo goes). I can say that I believe in what the OP wants.... in a way. I think that the OP's means of doing this balancing is wrong.

The OP is working in the same direction that Halo 2 took from Halo:CE and Halo 3 took from Halo 2. This is weakening the strength of all the weapons.

Halo:CE had the best and most balanced MP out of all the games and this was because there was the Pistol which in the hands of a very skilled user could beat power weapons like the Sniper Rifle and Rocket launcher, or at close range the AR, PR, and Shotgun.

What made Halo:CE work so well is that the weapons could kill very fast at their intended range. This force players to be super accurate with the Pistol in order to pull out the kill. This increased the skill gap in the game separating the men from the boys and the Walshy's from the Anti 007's. This added replayablility to the game's MP with out having to have a ranking system.

Now for Halo: Reach if we go back to the Halo:CE ideals and increase the power in the weapons leaving the margin for error smaller, the 1v1 battles shorter and the gameplay faster.

  • 08.04.2009 8:38 AM PDT

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Posted by: mubox47
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Posted by: DootuzPIE
Posted by: The EAKLE

Weapon Sets.

Weapon set 1.
-BR (toned down version).
-Carbine (toned down version).
-No other changes.
This would play just like Halo 3, but the BR and Carbine would be less powerful. That would allow CQB weapons more opportunities to be useful.
[/i]


See one of the problems with Halo 3 now is that it just takes to long to kill people. They nerfedall the weapons and just makes the game generally boring.
That is entirely opinion based though. I played CoD last weekend, and people died all the time. It was a game that almost had to be taken competitively, becuase if you play "just for fun" you just end up with a ton of kills. In GoW it takes a rather large number of bullets to kill someone with a lancer or hammerburst. The power weapons seem much more wanted in that game because the starting weapons arent as good, unless you are a good shot with the hammerburst. Yet Gears is still a competitive game. People still play it, and from my experience most play to win.

Halo seems to be pretty close to the middle os those two. You dont die form a few bursts to the chest and you dont take way to many bullets before going down. You could say that changing it is a bad idea. Others will say that people should die faster. It is all opinion based, and while slowing down kills may be considered a flaw to some, others may prefer it and others might not even notice.

  • 08.04.2009 8:45 AM PDT

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Posted by: mubox47
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Posted by: Anti 007
Over time I have come to respect the OP as a smart person with a defined set of ideals (as far as Halo goes). I can say that I believe in what the OP wants.... in a way. I think that the OP's means of doing this balancing is wrong.

The OP is working in the same direction that Halo 2 took from Halo:CE and Halo 3 took from Halo 2. This is weakening the strength of all the weapons.

Halo:CE had the best and most balanced MP out of all the games and this was because there was the Pistol which in the hands of a very skilled user could beat power weapons like the Sniper Rifle and Rocket launcher, or at close range the AR, PR, and Shotgun.

What made Halo:CE work so well is that the weapons could kill very fast at their intended range. This force players to be super accurate with the Pistol in order to pull out the kill. This increased the skill gap in the game separating the men from the boys and the Walshy's from the Anti 007's. This added replayablility to the game's MP with out having to have a ranking system.

Now for Halo: Reach if we go back to the Halo:CE ideals and increase the power in the weapons leaving the margin for error smaller, the 1v1 battles shorter and the gameplay faster.
Im not sure i understand you right. Are you saying increase the power of all weapons?

If so, that is possible, but as i mentioned it may be very difficult. Halo CE weapons were weakened in Halo 2 because of Dual Wielding. If the Plasma Rifles kept their stun effect and damage, they would be very deadly. I think they would be too deadly. To balance out power and keep dual wielding, there would have to be major weaknesses to dualing. This would probably make dualing much less appealing. They might be able to give each individual weapon different "nerfs" when being dual wielded (i.e. PR loses Stun and a little damage when dualing, SMG loses accuracy and a little damage.) but i dont know if that's possible. I do have a new idea though.

The Plasma Rifle could return to it's CE model. It would have all the stun and Damage it used to, and would no longer be dual wieldable. The AR could then receive improvements to its effectiveness, such as more power, a larger clip, and more accuracy when fired in bursts.

The SMG and the Spiker would become the main dual wieldable weapons. They may need a slight boost in accuracy in power so they are still useful, but for the most part could remain the same.

The PP could have two options. It can either be a support weapon like it is now, only effective when used in a combo or with a team mate, or it too could become a single wield again and regain all its old effects.

I highly doubt Bungie will return to the M6D. To make the M6G a more used and less hated weapon, it does not need more power. After using it for a few games last night, i realistic that a larger clip and a little more accuracy would make it very useful. Something like the SCP could be used. Give the M6G enough ammo to get two kills per mag and aa little more accuracy.

  • 08.04.2009 9:01 AM PDT
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The BR is fine, everyone loves it. It's become Halo's most loved weapon (not by me, but I still love it). If they change anything they should make the bullets have a wider spread and slightly slower speed - so it won't work at long range, you'll need to focus on centering when you're mid-range, and players have change when they hear "BAM. BAM. BAM." instead of the undodgeable "BABABAM". Maybe decrease the clip size a little, and reduce the scope to a 1.5. Then the BR would be well balanced but still loved.

  • 08.04.2009 9:17 AM PDT

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Posted by: mubox47
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Posted by: Monisevenor Izit
The BR is fine, everyone loves it. It's become Halo's most loved weapon (not by me, but I still love it). If they change anything they should make the bullets have a wider spread and slightly slower speed - so it won't work at long range, you'll need to focus on centering when you're mid-range, and players have change when they hear "BAM. BAM. BAM." instead of the undodgeable "BABABAM". Maybe decrease the clip size a little, and reduce the scope to a 1.5. Then the BR would be well balanced but still loved.
I never thought of slowing down the bullet speed. I dont think more spread should be added, because that would also effect it at mid range where it does fine. Reducing the scope a bit, slowing down the bullets, and decreasing bullet magnetism would balance it out a lot.

  • 08.04.2009 9:19 AM PDT

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Posted by: Monisevenor Izit
The BR is fine, everyone loves it. It's become Halo's most loved weapon (not by me, but I still love it). If they change anything they should make the bullets have a wider spread and slightly slower speed - so it won't work at long range, you'll need to focus on centering when you're mid-range, and players have change when they hear "BAM. BAM. BAM." instead of the undodgeable "BABABAM". Maybe decrease the clip size a little, and reduce the scope to a 1.5. Then the BR would be well balanced but still loved.


I don't know about actually reducing a bullets speed for a single weapon, but the weapons in this game would benefit from the user actually having to lead their shots a little more realistically. You want to talk about definitive skill? That will show a huge gap between those that are able to aim and those that overly-rely on the hand-holder that is the current BR.

  • 08.04.2009 3:11 PM PDT

Character Artist -- Electronic Arts

The BR is perfect, but if you wanted to make it less effective at every distance, just lower the rate of fire and you'll give more time for close range weapons to shine.

  • 08.04.2009 3:53 PM PDT

I only read the original post so this is in response to that.

First off lets talk about range - from reading your post the AR is a "very close" range weapon since you mention the BR being overly effective from just outside the AR range.
The AR is a close range weapon, and the BR is a medium range weapon.
Very close I would call sword/beat down range.

So if you agree that the AR is a close range, not very close range weapon, then the BR is not effective at close range - assuming you have 2 people of equal skill.

That kind of leads into my next point - 2 people of equal skill. That's the only way you can assess if something is balanced, and I don't really see that in your post.

Next comment is that you leave out some key points about the weapons when calling them balanced.
- Beat downs: Most of the weapons you discuss you leave out beat downs which really complicates things.

- BR Spread: You mention this but I think it's more important than you lead on. Unless you are awesome and should be playing MLG then hitting someone with all 3 bullets 3 times in the body is really really hard - I'm a level 50 and I can probably count the times I've 4 shotted someone form just outside AR range - who wasn't running straight at me (player skill again) on one hand. Mostly due to spread and just the overall difficulty of landing BR shots.

- Biggest point, as mentioned above, is DIFFICULTY. The BR is a difficult weapon to be good with. since the bullets travel in bursts of three with a gap between each burst, accuracy is very important - no spray and pray ability like the AR.

The biggest reason you make this thread probably isn't because people of likewise skill beat you with the BR, it's because people who are better at the game beat you with the BR. And it is too bad that the BR is a big part of the game you don't like - but you still played more than 4000 games so I think you're doing OK.

Why weakening the BR is a bad idea: removes the ability to improve. If the BR is/was weakened the game would be easier to be really good at. The most fun I had in this game was grinding from a 45 to a 50 in Slayer. It took me awhile but I got really good with the BR and it was rewarding. Now I don't play much anymore and I suck with the BR and get owned, which does kind of suck. But if you can't get better at something, then why play at all?

P.S. this was too long to proof read and is a bit ranty, but whatever - Also Halo 1 piston was not balanced by increased power in other weapons, it was far more dominant than the BR is in halo 3.

  • 08.04.2009 3:57 PM PDT