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  • Subject: Rebalancing the BR (v2)
Subject: Rebalancing the BR (v2)
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Posted by: The EAKLE

That's sort of the issue. The AR wins against a BR in melee range. f not in melee range, the BR wins
.

CQC = Meele range = where the AR wins. Outside Meele range = mid to long range = where BR wins. But this isn't the issue.

Posted by: The EAKLE

That's why i suggested the SMA5C. It would be effective at longer ranges then just melee, separating the AR from the PR, SMG, and Spiker.
.

What's the SMA5C? Regardless, the issue of your thread about how the BR isn't balanced, but every weapon functions as it should under the given circumstances. If a weapon like the BR or the Carbine didn't exist for mid to long range then what's the alternative?

Posted by: Lultam
Like I said before, if you're losing at CQC, where the AR > BR then you're doing something wrong. If you're losing to the BR at mid or long range than that makes sense, as that's how the BR works.


And please don't tell me I have to repeat myself a third time ;)

  • 08.05.2009 2:23 PM PDT

Doc: "i'm a pacifist"
Caboose: "your a thing that babies suck on?"
Tucker: "no dude, that's a pedephile"
Church: "tucker, i think he means a pacifier"

Posted by: Misfit197
if the br isnt in reach, or something similar, i wont purchase it.

the br made halo.


Wrong Bungie made Halo, kids who don't know how to do much else but camp firing lanes and exploit weapon glitchs (Halo2) "made" the BR. The BR, along with all the other simplified aspects of both sequals brought in a new crowd, and that crowd for the most part adopted the BR because of how useful it is. This turned the game into two main "things", a competitive arena for those who love nothing more but to BR and be out BR'd, and a monotone, mundane experiance where you are more often than not forced to use a BR whether you like it or not because in this streamlined gameplay, it is the only way you'll be consistently effective.

I doubt greatly that Bungie intended the BR to have the impact it had, the players brought it where it is now, not Bungie. In doing so the need for strong general gameplay and versatility has been greatly reduced. I fail to see this as a triumph in any way shape or form from a gameplay standpoint.

If your attitude is "no BR, no buy" then I say good riddance, and I hope that those who swear by this one-trick atmosphere that the BR promotes go with you.

  • 08.05.2009 2:50 PM PDT

I'll kill you with a pistol.

There are no battle rifles in halo 1 and this is halo reach. So if this happens before halo 1 when brs arent standard issue marksman rifles then I dont think you will see much brs in halo reach if at all.

  • 08.05.2009 3:08 PM PDT

Doc: "i'm a pacifist"
Caboose: "your a thing that babies suck on?"
Tucker: "no dude, that's a pedephile"
Church: "tucker, i think he means a pacifier"

Posted by: FearlessMagnum
There are no battle rifles in halo 1 and this is halo reach. So if this happens before halo 1 when brs arent standard issue marksman rifles then I dont think you will see much brs in halo reach if at all.


The catch is that in the novel First Strike the BR (a form of it rather) did exist on Reach. It was a new weapon that the Spartans utilized after procuring them from the Castle base.

  • 08.05.2009 3:10 PM PDT
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I disagree with the toning down of the Battle Rifle and especially the Carbine. The Battle Rifle/ Carbine are jack of all trade weapons. They can do everything well but not in once case can you say they are overpowered. The inclusion of weapon like the Battle Rifle and Carbine promote movement, while if you have a certain power weapon most players only stay within those weapons effective ranges. (Shotgun 1m-3m, Rockets 4m- 10m, Energy Sword 1m-4m).

(Side note: Carbine's my favorite gun.)

[Edited on 08.05.2009 3:26 PM PDT]

  • 08.05.2009 3:20 PM PDT
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Posted by: SweetTRIX


This turned the game into two main "things", a competitive arena for those who love nothing more but to BR and be out BR'd, and a monotone, mundane experiance where you are more often than not forced to use a BR whether you like it or not because in this streamlined gameplay, it is the only way you'll be consistently effective.


Hmm. Well, that's not exactly fair is it? There's so much more to competitve halo then just out BRing people. I don't make fun of anyone that plays Zombies or custom games in that vein just because I don't enjoy playing them or find them boring. I know that even if I find them someway boring other people enjoy them because they value fun over competitiveness. I'd suggest you do the same.

If your intention wasn't to attack the competitive scene but merely the masses that are "lolz br rulz ar sks" then my apologies.

Posted by: SweetTRIX

Wrong Bungie made Halo, kids who don't know how to do much else but camp firing lanes and exploit weapon glitchs (Halo2) "made" the BR. The BR, along with all the other simplified aspects of both sequals brought in a new crowd, and that crowd for the most part adopted the BR because of how useful it is.


Also, if we're going down this road, like you said, it's Bungie's game, if they'd tested the game better said glitches wouldn't be in the game. They never patched them because, I'm assuming, they weren't seriously effecting the game.

  • 08.05.2009 3:28 PM PDT

Doc: "i'm a pacifist"
Caboose: "your a thing that babies suck on?"
Tucker: "no dude, that's a pedephile"
Church: "tucker, i think he means a pacifier"

Posted by: Lultam
Posted by: SweetTRIX


This turned the game into two main "things", a competitive arena for those who love nothing more but to BR and be out BR'd, and a monotone, mundane experiance where you are more often than not forced to use a BR whether you like it or not because in this streamlined gameplay, it is the only way you'll be consistently effective.


Hmm. Well, that's not exactly fair is it? There's so much more to competitve halo then just out BRing people. I don't make fun of anyone that plays Zombies or custom games in that vein just because I don't enjoy playing them or find them boring. I know that even if I find them someway boring other people enjoy them because they value fun over competitiveness. I'd suggest you do the same.

If your intention wasn't to attack the competitive scene but merely the masses that are "lolz br rulz ar sks" then my apologies.


It was directed at those that treat the BR as if it is law, and they come from all groups. Though more often then not when I have seen someone claim the BR is made by Jesus, it is someone from the competitive scene. But your right, it isn't fair to generalize.

Posted by: SweetTRIX

Wrong Bungie made Halo, kids who don't know how to do much else but camp firing lanes and exploit weapon glitchs (Halo2) "made" the BR. The BR, along with all the other simplified aspects of both sequals brought in a new crowd, and that crowd for the most part adopted the BR because of how useful it is.


Also, if we're going down this road, like you said, it's Bungie's game, if they'd tested the game better said glitches wouldn't be in the game. They never patched them because, I'm assuming, they weren't seriously effecting the game.


I certainly see what you are saying, but any dev or product tester will tell you that it is virtually impossible to identify all issues with a product, this rings especially true with software. As I mentioned, the players brought the BR where it is, there is no way that Bungie could have accounted for this during play testing. There may have been indicators, but there is no way that they would know the bulk of the Halo 2 fan base would earn their kills from pathetic combo that exploited a glitch.

[Edited on 08.05.2009 3:44 PM PDT]

  • 08.05.2009 3:42 PM PDT
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Posted by: SweetTRIX

It was directed at those that treat the BR as if it is law, and they come from all groups. Though more often then not when I have seen someone claim the BR is made by Jesus, it is someone from the competitive scene. But your right, it isn't fair to generalize.


Alright, just checking ;) Even though it's a fair generalisation to make, it's not just the narrow minded players that are on the competitive scene. There's idiots on both sides of the fence who don't have an idea what they're really talking about. But then again I'm sure you already know that.

Posted by: SweetTRIX
I certainly see what you are saying, but any dev or product tester will tell you that it is virtually impossible to identify all issues with a product, this rings especially true with software. As I mentioned, the players brought the BR where it is, there is no way that Bungie could have accounted for this during play testing. There may have been indicators, but there is no way that they would know the bulk of the Halo 2 fan base would earn their kills from pathetic combo that exploited a glitch.


Well, I'm just making the point that you could compare the use of BxR etc, to that of shotgun camping. People could use the BxR by camping and killing people, but it was also a very large and skillful part of the competitive scene when used in proper games rather than using it during camping. I don't think it's fair to blame the glitches on the BR as they were quite skillful (and I couldn't use them at all) but rather we should be blaming the people that use them for camping. I see where you're coming from but you shouldn't let the kind of people that camp or create second accounts to basically tear apart new players ruin the game.

  • 08.05.2009 4:15 PM PDT
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I like the idea. I personally do mostly SWAT so i dont see a lot of how much its overpowered than the other weapons, but your right.

  • 08.05.2009 5:12 PM PDT

Doc: "i'm a pacifist"
Caboose: "your a thing that babies suck on?"
Tucker: "no dude, that's a pedephile"
Church: "tucker, i think he means a pacifier"

Posted by: Lultam
Posted by: SweetTRIX
I certainly see what you are saying, but any dev or product tester will tell you that it is virtually impossible to identify all issues with a product, this rings especially true with software. As I mentioned, the players brought the BR where it is, there is no way that Bungie could have accounted for this during play testing. There may have been indicators, but there is no way that they would know the bulk of the Halo 2 fan base would earn their kills from pathetic combo that exploited a glitch.


Well, I'm just making the point that you could compare the use of BxR etc, to that of shotgun camping. People could use the BxR by camping and killing people, but it was also a very large and skillful part of the competitive scene when used in proper games rather than using it during camping. I don't think it's fair to blame the glitches on the BR as they were quite skillful (and I couldn't use them at all) but rather we should be blaming the people that use them for camping. I see where you're coming from but you shouldn't let the kind of people that camp or create second accounts to basically tear apart new players ruin the game.


I may have mispoke myself at some point, because I do not blame for the BR for the glitches one bit. What I said earlier was that because of the glitches surrounding it, and the level of effectivness, the players flocked to it. The ease with which you could score a kill fed the BR phenomenon, otherwise it would never have happened the way it did.

That's all I was saying.

  • 08.05.2009 5:25 PM PDT

And my Friends ask me why do i make new acounts if i dont want to sell them. i'll tell you. its cuz people like you and the guy who made this thread you think just cuz taking the BR out or just making it more useless is going to stop the top 10% (Good Players) from beating you game after game, seting up (what noobs call caming) your out of your mind. (oh and if you cant tell you kids make me so MAD.

ok lets talk some of the things that go into this game you might not understand.

1st: why do the BR and carbine pwn the AR and other short range guns.

well i might be cuz BR's and Carbines and made for Mid to long range and are based off weapons that are mid to long range. the same guns the take out other mid to long range weapons as well as short range weapons.

The AR is based off A SHORT RANGE weapon a weapon intended for close quarters combat and suppressive fire. it was not intended to beat out the BR or Carbine at range.

ok so this is what im going to do if any of you here at the bungie.net want to show me why the BR needs to become more useless then hit me up on my GT: Clutch Artist

PLZ someone show me

  • 08.05.2009 7:03 PM PDT

im that kid

  • 08.05.2009 7:07 PM PDT

Voilà!In view,a humble vaudevillian veteran,cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate.This visage, no mere veneer of vanity,is a vestige of the vox populi,now vacant, vanished.However,this valorous visitation of a by-gone vexation,stands vivified and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin van-guarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition.

Posted by: Clutch Artist
im that kid


and to your right you will see a troll in its natural habitat, the internet, now there is a very important policy we have here on this forum DO NOT FEED THE ANIMALS so if everyone will just move along over here and ignor his posts

  • 08.06.2009 4:30 AM PDT

I'm going to invade your heart like a barn swallow high on milk chocolate and grandma love.

Fairness is only possible within the limited powers of man. Elsewhere, there is only chance.

Thus I refute thee.

I like your ideas. The BR is definately unbalanced.

  • 08.06.2009 7:20 AM PDT

Challenge me to a Hawaiian Punch chugging contest. I dare you.


Posted by: mubox47
$.50 in store credit.

Posted by: Lultam
Posted by: The EAKLE

That's sort of the issue. The AR wins against a BR in melee range. f not in melee range, the BR wins
.

CQC = Meele range = where the AR wins. Outside Meele range = mid to long range = where BR wins. But this isn't the issue.
Melee range =/= Close range. All weapons -even the BR- are deadly in melee range. the AR is meant to be close range, but at the edge of your radar ( i think that is pretty close) the BR will most likely win. Spread barely effects it at this range, but the AR can't land it's 16 hits consecutively.

Posted by: The EAKLE

That's why i suggested the SMA5C. It would be effective at longer ranges then just melee, separating the AR from the PR, SMG, and Spiker.
.

What's the SMA5C? Regardless, the issue of your thread about how the BR isn't balanced, but every weapon functions as it should under the given circumstances. If a weapon like the BR or the Carbine didn't exist for mid to long range then what's the alternative?
Did you read all of my three posts? I dont want the BR removed. I think it should be altered or replaced. Either way, there will still be a mid range weapon.

Posted by: Lultam
Like I said before, if you're losing at CQC, where the AR > BR then you're doing something wrong. If you're losing to the BR at mid or long range than that makes sense, as that's how the BR works.


And please don't tell me I have to repeat myself a third time ;)
You dont have to repeat this comment. You chose to because you cant come up with anything else. The AR is not a melee only weapon, it is a close range weapon. The BR almost always limits it to melee range.

[Edited on 08.06.2009 8:56 AM PDT]

  • 08.06.2009 8:30 AM PDT

Maybe Bungie could also implement a rifle replica of the Halo CE pistol, not as a matchmaking weapon, but as a forge/custom game weapon.
At least then the crowd that loves those types of weapons will be happy, while the rest of the community will play without that weapon.

Also, don't claim one weapon takes more "skill" then another, as we have no standard by which to measure skill.
Aiming is a skill, you can have skills, you can be more skilled then someone else at something, but you can't compare the amount of "skill" required to use two different things without having a method of measuring their respective required amount of "skill".

  • 08.06.2009 8:53 AM PDT

Challenge me to a Hawaiian Punch chugging contest. I dare you.


Posted by: mubox47
$.50 in store credit.

Posted by: Quetzocoetl
Maybe Bungie could also implement a rifle replica of the Halo CE pistol, not as a matchmaking weapon, but as a forge/custom game weapon.
At least then the crowd that loves those types of weapons will be happy, while the rest of the community will play without that weapon.

Also, don't claim one weapon takes more "skill" then another, as we have no standard by which to measure skill.
Aiming is a skill, you can have skills, you can be more skilled then someone else at something, but you can't compare the amount of "skill" required to use two different things without having a method of measuring their respective required amount of "skill".
I'd love to see the CE magnum as a forge item.

I totaly agree about the skill issue. Skill has no standard measurement and we have nothing to measure it with. You cant claim a weapon is more skillful than another when you cant measure skill.

  • 08.06.2009 8:58 AM PDT

Doc: "i'm a pacifist"
Caboose: "your a thing that babies suck on?"
Tucker: "no dude, that's a pedephile"
Church: "tucker, i think he means a pacifier"

Posted by: Clutch Artist
And my Friends ask me why do i make new acounts if i dont want to sell them. i'll tell you. its cuz people like you and the guy who made this thread you think just cuz taking the BR out or just making it more useless is going to stop the top 10% (Good Players) from beating you game after game, seting up (what noobs call caming) your out of your mind. (oh and if you cant tell you kids make me so MAD.

ok lets talk some of the things that go into this game you might not understand.

1st: why do the BR and carbine pwn the AR and other short range guns.

well i might be cuz BR's and Carbines and made for Mid to long range and are based off weapons that are mid to long range. the same guns the take out other mid to long range weapons as well as short range weapons.

The AR is based off A SHORT RANGE weapon a weapon intended for close quarters combat and suppressive fire. it was not intended to beat out the BR or Carbine at range.

ok so this is what im going to do if any of you here at the bungie.net want to show me why the BR needs to become more useless then hit me up on my GT: Clutch Artist

PLZ someone show me


You don't read very well do you? Either that or you have just decided to ignore the actual points of the posts on this thread. The BR should not be removed, there needs to be a weapon that handles the mid-range, no question about it. The complaint is that the BR is effective outside of that range, that is the issue of balance.

If you truly believe that removing the BR would have no effect on the way that the top whatever % of players play the game, you are pretty damn stupid. The BR is the go-to tool for many in the upper echelon of players, that is a fact. You remove the BR you force them to actually employ some strategy beyond that which the BR offers.

  • 08.06.2009 4:14 PM PDT
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Posted by: The EAKLE
Posted by: Lultam
Posted by: The EAKLE

That's sort of the issue. The AR wins against a BR in melee range. f not in melee range, the BR wins
.

CQC = Meele range = where the AR wins. Outside Meele range = mid to long range = where BR wins. But this isn't the issue.
Melee range =/= Close range. All weapons -even the BR- are deadly in melee range. the AR is meant to be close range, but at the edge of your radar ( i think that is pretty close) the BR will most likely win. Spread barely effects it at this range, but the AR can't land it's 16 hits consecutively.
.


Melee range is pretty darn close to close range. Close range is the shortest range in Halo 3. You've got Blackout, right? If you do, then look at the second level to BR Tower. The furthest extent of close range ( I would say, using the AR's effective range) is the length of that area. Mid range is so much larger than close range which allows for the BR//Carbine (and in some cases, the Magnum) to be applied in these situations and use them effectively. What I do to help describe ranges is order them in "sub-ranges", if you will, like this:

Close range is organized into two ranges-melee range and close range (lack of a better name...). Melee range is when you're close enough to smash their face, the other range is where the AR and SMG can kill without meleeing, full auto. The second "sub-range" is so small that one can easily take a few steps to approach melee range.

In a conflict where an AR beats a BR at close range, the fight is engaged at the second range, where eventually (and quickly) becomes a battle at melee range. Melee range is so easily accessible for the AR (looking at if from its effective range). Because of it's range, it's more dependant on melee range than something like the Sniper, Laser or BR.

I organize mid range into 3 "sub-ranges": close-mid, mid-mid, and long-mid. Close-mid starts where close range left off (looking at the Blackout, just outside the width of BR tower) and ends (using another example) the length of Rocket hall on The Pit, where Mid-mid begins. The furthest extent to Long-mid would be (using The Pit again) from Sniper Tower to the farthest wall.

Long range iis anything larger than previous ranges. However, you're only fighting in this range if you're using a Sniper of Laser.

It's not really the BR's fault. It's a combination of the AR's dependance on melee (in order to kill more people/magazine), and that close range isn't very large, at all. When burst-firing, the AR can be used at close-mid, but that's as much credit as I'm giving it. And, even then, the AR doesn't kill as fast as the BR does at this range. Now it's using common sense-I'm going to use the weapon that kills faster. More times than not, you're going to see people in mid range, where I'd prefer to use something that kills faster and more reliably at said range.

And, recalling my games from the past 2 days, if I've killed a player using the AR with a BR, I either have barely any shield left, or none at all, making me very susceptible to grenades or other players. And even then, those players ran in a straight line. If they jumped around, at least tried to make an effort to kill me, I would've probably missed one shot and died.

  • 08.06.2009 4:59 PM PDT