Halo: Reach Forum
This topic has moved here: Subject: Should Bungie add customizable enemies in the forge of Halo: Reach?
  • Subject: Should Bungie add customizable enemies in the forge of Halo: Reach?
Subject: Should Bungie add customizable enemies in the forge of Halo: Reach?
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  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Mostly no. It probably wouldn't work in standard multiplayer or it would simply be too difficult to program in. The main difference between multiplayer and campaign is that it's scripted, you can't compare the two in terms of the feasibility of AI in multiplayer. If Bungie somehow included a scripting engine and programming software in forge, along with maps that would be more oriented towards that or infection gametypes, then it is at least possible, but 99.99% of gamers wouldn't know how to use it or what to do with it, and would need that keyboard input thing for controllers in order to type out the script code. All in all, it's just too complicated for forge, what Bungie could do, and already did do, is firefight, which is prescripted.

If firefight isn't enough for you, Bungie could simply give you more options for firefight, like fighting flood instead of covenant.

  • 08.16.2009 3:54 PM PDT

Posted by: road kill492716
Mostly no. It probably wouldn't work in standard multiplayer or it would simply be too difficult to program in. The main difference between multiplayer and campaign is that it's scripted, you can't compare the two in terms of the feasibility of AI in multiplayer. If Bungie somehow included a scripting engine and programming software in forge, along with maps that would be more oriented towards that or infection gametypes, then it is at least possible, but 99.99% of gamers wouldn't know how to use it or what to do with it, and would need that keyboard input thing for controllers in order to type out the script code. All in all, it's just too complicated for forge, what Bungie could do, and already did do, is firefight, which is prescripted.

If firefight isn't enough for you, Bungie could simply give you more options for firefight, like fighting flood instead of covenant.


Again and again people bring up the scripting issue. Agan and again I must make this same point. It gets rather mundane after a while.

YOU ARE NOT A PROGRAMMER. DO NOT SAY WHAT IS HARD TO SCRIPT OR NOT.

Additionally, most A.I.s in campaign have very little scripting. All scripting does is make it so an A.I. does the EXACT same thing EVERY time. Many A.I.s in campaign work on a simple follow current path/area, or shoot enemy (a.k.a. Master Chief). Since a player's moves aren't set in stone, neither can the scripting.

It would in NO WAY be impossible. These are NOT bots. All they do is 1. follow path and 2. detect/shoot enemies.

Also, let me be clear. This is NOT campaign or firefight. It is just adding an extra element of combat onto custom/forged maps.

  • 08.16.2009 4:09 PM PDT

you are able to add bots in gears of war 2. idk y you cant do it in this game

  • 08.16.2009 4:18 PM PDT

Posted by: u aint tuffenuf1
you are able to add bots in gears of war 2. idk y you cant do it in this game


Because there is no custom content in GoW 2. In halo, all the user created content wouldn't be compatible with complex bots. That is why I am suggesting this alternative.

  • 08.16.2009 4:44 PM PDT
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Go Elites!

I don't see how hard it could be if they have sentinels flying overhead and turrets shooting at you.

  • 08.16.2009 5:34 PM PDT

Spartans tonight we die in hell.

This is not hard at all. Like pocket said all they do is follow a path, detect enemies and shoot them. Is it that hard to do. Listen to what pocket is saying

  • 08.16.2009 5:40 PM PDT

brasil é o melhor

this is an exelent idea , but some people would make mods and overload the map with a.i. however its a great idea an bungie should include this on the GAME

tambem podemos escrever em topicos complicados

BRASIL IS THE BEST


E QUEM NÃO CONCORDA É BAITOLA

[Edited on 08.16.2009 6:39 PM PDT]

  • 08.16.2009 6:37 PM PDT

Spartans tonight we die in hell.

Since I'm in bungie I will take this into consideration so pocket your idea might just become a reality

  • 08.16.2009 7:45 PM PDT

the thing is i dont thing there will be a forge mode in halo reach because bungie says that when you buy halo 3 odst it comes with the invitation to halo reach MULTIPLAYER beta so its basically like halo 3s multiplayer

  • 08.16.2009 8:08 PM PDT

Nothing is better than gaming through the day, into the night, then back into the day. It's like when you finally push that power button you feel like you've accomplished nothing, but at the same time, you can't stop smiling.

That would be so sick. But it would be really to make something that in depth without making it complicated.

  • 08.16.2009 8:35 PM PDT

i want to be a Brute!!!!!!!!

  • 08.16.2009 9:02 PM PDT

Rawr!!

Didn't even read it. But I'm saying yes, they should have A.I. in this after what they -blam!- did to us with the Mythic Maps. Making us think you could have NPC's in it. What d-bags. Lol, jk.

  • 08.16.2009 9:06 PM PDT

Rawr!!

Posted by: Elite Soverign
Since I'm in bungie I will take this into consideration so pocket your idea might just become a reality


Liar, don't listen to this kid.

  • 08.16.2009 9:07 PM PDT

I must admit, this looks to be a very promising idea, although I have a few minor suggestions.

The choice to incorporate player placeable AI units into multiplayer maps through forge is certainly something I think many would appreciate, even if such a thing were restricted to customs only (which I doubt). Sadly it brings with it a few "issues" as well, which I shall explain below. Aside from that, I think you idea holds a good deal of potential.

One of the largest issues with including bots in any multiplayer game is the "pathing", or the system that tells the bots how to get wherever the AI tells them to go. Without proper paths AI enemies will simply stand still, walk into walls, stroll off cliffs or move about in other undesirable ways. Now take the map Guardian, for example. Without proper paths, you would find that any AI enemies would either stand still or attempt to chase opponents from behind walls, or be unable to move from one level to the next. Were bungie to include a prebuilt path system, the AI on the map would function accordingly, jumping gaps from the center to lift room, utilizing all lifts and (hopefully) avoid diving headfirst off cliffs.

Now at first glance this may seem to function just fine for your in game maps, but as soon as one introduces the forge things become a good deal more complicated. Now let us assume bungie built and fully pathed a much more customizable map than Guardian, such as Foundry. Assuming a default layout, the AI would function properly, jumping and moving around the map with at least some semblance to your average human being. But as soon as someone removes all the geometry, bungies ever so thoughtfully constructed pathing system is completely useless, as the entire map layout can change into a million different combinations, ones that the old path "nodes" will no longer match.

As I see it, there are two realistic ways to solve this problem and still include an AI system in forge and multiplayer.

First, bungie could try and code an adaptable AI, one that fully recognizes surrounding geometry and utilizes it based on predefined parameters. These parameters determine if, for example, an Elite could use the object as cover, climb over it, destroy it when an enemy is nearby, ect. The problem with this, however, is that such an AI (to the extent of my knowledge) would require not only immense amounts of processing power (as in supercomputers) to function adequately, it would also be very, very difficult to program. (Note that this type of AI does something similar to what any human being would when playing halo. It analyzes the object and its purpose, and then relates this in context to the rest of the environment, then precedes to store this information and use it accordingly. And a human brain is immensely more powerful then any household computer. It is possible to have a very simplified version, however, but when compared to option #2, it is somewhat useless.)

A much more feasible (in my opinion) option would be to have player placeable "path nodes".
These are basically objects visible only in forge that a person would place onto their completed map that direct the AI around the geometry, giving direction as to where it must jump, use a lift, ect. These can even be extended to include vehicles, without adding to much to the complexity (GUI wise, not code wise).
Basically, these things could look like little glowing balls or something, and in between them would be a variety of lines. each of these lines would connect to a different node, and this would be controlled by the player (for example, the player sets node A to connect to B and C, and little lines appear joining them directly). Now what the AI does is follow these lines, and depending on the path type, it determines what actions it can take (if A is connected to B and C, but not D, and D is only connected to C, then the AI character runs from A->C->D. If the character decides to move to B from D, then it moves from D->C->A->B.)

In addition, the lines that connect these paths could be "activated" in forge, and a menu would pop up that controls the type of path that joins the two points. If the path is just a straight walkway, it could be set to normal, default, w/e. If there was a gap between A and B, then one would set the path to a "jump" type of path or similar to inform the AI it must jump to get from A to B. This could of course be extended to vehicles, and various other special paths that may be required.

The only other issue I can see people "worrying" about is perhaps lag, to which I have a fairly simple answer. If 4 player campaign, with perhaps 20+ enemy AI on screen at once is reasonably acceptable network wise, then perhaps 15 human players and 5 AI, or some such combination of the two, would stay within a reasonable bandwidth limit (or at least so I hope, there are some pretty terrible connections out there).

Sorry for the long post,

  • 08.16.2009 10:43 PM PDT

Its a trap!!!

Great idea I love it.

I also like the idea of a campaign editor


this Idea would be perfect if implemented with you being able to put your multiplayer guy in campaign so you get those armor permetaions. Plus a blank campaign levels to mess around in (unlockable after you beat the game for fairness)

with that and AIs in forged muliplayer levels you could make a really cool youtube machinima the kinda stuff that only seemed possible in Halo PC

  • 08.16.2009 10:56 PM PDT

To JasmineWarrior:

If you read through carefully, you would have seen I already have the idea of "waypoints." These would directly indicate the path that the A.I. would follow. Although your idea of a jump option is good. I will likely add it to the main thread.

  • 08.17.2009 12:41 PM PDT

bungie jumper lol

messed up on table but who cares great idea

  • 08.17.2009 12:59 PM PDT

waypoints would probably work but if you want a lot of enemies dont you thing they will be all walking through each other on the same waypoint ?

  • 08.17.2009 1:19 PM PDT

Posted by: BuriedWaz up12
waypoints would probably work but if you want a lot of enemies dont you thing they will be all walking through each other on the same waypoint ?


Well, then make better waypoints? This is like saying forge is a bad because what if you put all the weapons on top of eachother. No one will force you to play on "bad" maps.

  • 08.17.2009 1:24 PM PDT

This account was destroyed by data corruption. My other account is Ylthorin.

If you want to have fun when playing games, relaxing and other stuff like that, feel free to drop by and join The Gaming Knights.

Think of the coding issues that would crop up, man!

  • 08.17.2009 1:26 PM PDT

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I | --------____.`====.-.~:_____\______|============={00]
|_|||___/____/_/~```|_|_|_|``(0)----------------<]

BAM!!!!! you just got sniped!

i think that would be pretty cool

  • 08.17.2009 1:28 PM PDT

Happiness is a warm gun

Since modders were able to place A.I. Enemies on multiplayer levels in Halo CE im sure Bungie are capable,
If not i will be very disapointed.

  • 08.17.2009 1:46 PM PDT

Posted by: Pocket Syndrome
Posted by: BuriedWaz up12
waypoints would probably work but if you want a lot of enemies dont you thing they will be all walking through each other on the same waypoint ?


Well, then make better waypoints? This is like saying forge is a bad because what if you put all the weapons on top of eachother. No one will force you to play on "bad" maps.



Forge is amazing but all im trying to say is that if you put lots of enemies on a waypoint they would be walking in kind of a line formation and does that also mean they will be walking in a circle and they cant chase you.If bungie made a very good game engine then it would work and i have always wanted bots in halo, i know bungie is able to do this and utilize this very good idea.

  • 08.17.2009 1:50 PM PDT

I understand what you are referring to with your waypoints and combat areas idea, and it is indeed somewhat similar to what I suggested. I see two issues with it however, which I think could be easily remedied.

First off the AI following a single set path of say 4 way points in a circle does not make for very dynamic game play (at least IMO) and it makes the AI much too predictable, as they will only patrol on this set path for every game played. Creating a more universal set of paths, where the in game AI has the choice to move either left, right, or backwards (depending on the path configuration) opens up the game play possibilities a bit more. Take for example someone creating a three dimensional maze on foundry, where the objective is to avoid getting killed by an indestructible AI enemy. Using a path system that loops in on itself in a linear manner, one will find that not only would the AI likely be unable to travel to each section of the maze, but they will be very predictable when doing so. As well, were a player to leave the set AI path and hide behind a wall or other geometry piece, the AI would be unable to follow, as it must stay within the confines of its set pathway.

Using a multi node system with a variety of connectivity points, however, a forger could create a single path through the entire maze that works for every AI character placed on the map. Now if a character decides to take a left at some junction during the game, the AI has either the choice to pursue down the left path or take some other route to continue hunting for the players, instead of being forced to continue along a linear path system.

The component involving combat areas raises another problem (note that I may be misinterpreting your meaning, if you intend for them to be used in conjunction with the waypoint system then disregard this.)
If your AI can be attached to one of these combat areas, and is to move with it, then they will still find themselves running headlong into walls or off ledges when they attempt to engage a player. The AI must have some reduced instruction set regarding the environment and how it may react within it to function properly, otherwise it will ignore world geometry and be unable to effectively engage and pursue a target within the confines of the map.

If you do intend for these combat areas to be used in conjunction with the waypoint/path system, then may I suggest a simplification. Instead of attaching a combat area to an AI character and then adjusting its dimensions based upon at what ranges you wish the AI to engage an enemy, simply allow for a menu item on the AI itself to include the min/max range at which an enemy can be engaged. The only other use I could see for a specific stationary combat area would be to restrict the AI's attack option to a certain portion of the map, which could, in most cases, be done simply using the min/max range commands and a limited closed path system.

If I misunderstood any of your intentions regarding the waypoint and combat area system you suggested I apologize.

  • 08.17.2009 1:58 PM PDT

Possibly, but I am not sure what the engine Halo: Reach will be using is capable of doing. If they can do something like this, I'm sure they are already working on it (hopefully).

  • 08.17.2009 1:59 PM PDT