Halo: Reach Forum
This topic has moved here: Subject: Lets put the "Spartan II class II's" to rest. (And Sp...
  • Subject: Lets put the "Spartan II class II's" to rest. (And Sp...
Subject: Lets put the "Spartan II class II's" to rest. (And Sp...

Signatures are for squares.

First, I'd like to say that I spent about an hour making this post, only to accidentally "X" the page out, making me start from scratch.

Anyways, alot of people out there believe that the 5 people in the Banner are Spartan II class II's, but in reality, they don't exist. The class II's were a cancelled project.


After the graduation of the first class of SPARTAN-IIs in 2525, Dr. Halsey began planning for the next wave of Spartans; her efforts, however, ran into problems. There were too few candidates that were in sync with her age restriction protocol and a majority of her funding was going towards MJOLNIR maintenance and construction; leaving little room for continued training efforts. By 2531, the majority of her funds had been diverted and she was forced to postpone the effort indefinitely.


This means that Halsey never got around to finishing the class II's, and Mendez was later called to Ackersons "Spartan III" project.

Spartan III's cost much less the Spartan II's, could be trained faster, and didn't use the costly MJOLNIR armor. These Spartan IIIs could be "produced" in bulk, since they didn't go through as many risky genetic augmentation processes. Since Halsey wasn't on board with this project, they are not class II's.

While we are on the Spartan III subject, I'm going to point out why it is impossible for Spartan IIIs to be a part of this game.

Reach was invaded August 30th, 2552.

All of Alpha company was killed in 2537
All of Beta Company was killed in 2545, except for Tom and Lucy, who went on to train Gamma.
Gamma company didn't receive orders to move off of Oynx until October 2552, After Reach had fell. And Even if Some of Gamma was at Reach (no clue how they would of gotten there) they have different call signs, such as "Ash - G099"


Enough with the Spartan III's.


Now, some people will say, "What about Nicole-458, she was a Class II" The Truth behind that is, Nicole is a non-canon character made up by Bungie to be put in Team Ninjas Dead or Alive 4. Team Ninja originally request Master Chief, but Bungie instead gave them Nicole.

However, the most controversial thing of all, is I love Bees.

In October 2004, Joe was asked if ILB is canon, he replied:
Joe Staten:
"The Bees would not make the cut. Those guys basically did their own thing with very little Bungie input (save for massaging and approving the initial plot-treatment). While we helped define the boundaries of their fiction, we let them do what they thought best. And I think the game turned out great."


However, In July 2006 Frank O Conner stated:
Frankie:
"We're going to have this huge collection of canon and things that we embrace as canon, like I Love Bees and stuff like that."


Yet, that same year, Joe Staten said:
Joe Staten:
We're in the process of figuring out what was canon and what was not, and ILB was part of that neutrality.


I love Bees hasn't been mentioned since then, so I believe it's safe to say that it is NOT canon, especially since it directly violates other canon, such as the time in which characters Shaw and Fujikawa were supposed to have been alive.


Now, that still leaves the question, "What about the higher number spartans, such as "259" and "320"

Now it is very true that we haven't seen a Spartan II with a call sign this high, but that doesn't mean there isn't anyway. MLG Cheewawa was right when he said that the Human controlled planets at that time meant that there was trillions of Humans and children to scan, it's possible that more than 320 children were scanned possible induction, then it was narrowed too 150, then 75.

Hell, it's possible that these "Higher Numbered" spartans were in our face the entire time.

Spartans such as James, Mike, and Cassandra have played large roles in the novels, and Halo canon, and they've never had their numbers stated. Plus, there is still 11 unnamed spartans who's numbers could be higher than 150.



Hopefully, this cleared some things up for you, and you know now why It is possible that these Spartans are part of the original group of spartans, and Not class II's, or spartan III's.

[Edited on 08.06.2009 10:01 AM PDT]

  • 08.06.2009 10:00 AM PDT

Voilà!In view,a humble vaudevillian veteran,cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate.This visage, no mere veneer of vanity,is a vestige of the vox populi,now vacant, vanished.However,this valorous visitation of a by-gone vexation,stands vivified and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin van-guarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition.

I think your mad, cause you might be wrong about your theory on us playing as Blue Team, and you fear that Bungie will use this opportunity to give us something fresh with these new characters, Seirra 259 and Seirra 320. Its okay some of us feel your pain.

  • 08.06.2009 10:11 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: ramenloverninja
I think your mad, cause you might be wrong about your theory on us playing as Blue Team, and you fear that Bungie will use this opportunity to give us something fresh with these new characters, Seirra 259 and Seirra 320. Its okay some of us feel your pain.


What gives you the feeling that I'm upset? I'm just annoyed at the fact many of the members in this forum have never researched, or read up on the novels. This disproves nearly every theory, leaving room for only original Spartan II's, since those are the only Spartans who participated on the battle of Reach. Not once did I state Blue team in that post.

  • 08.06.2009 10:14 AM PDT

On Waypoint I'm rocketFox;
http://halo.xbox.com/forums/members/rocketfox/default.aspx

Old GTs; RebelRobot, Flamedude

The numbers 259 and 320 are just too significant and out there to mean nothing....... They don't fit.

  • 08.06.2009 10:16 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: flamedude
The numbers 259 and 320 are just too significant and out there to mean nothing....... They don't fit.


I didn't say they mean nothing, they are most likely Spartan II's who "fell" to the planet along with Fred and the other spartans. Most likely members of Beta team.

  • 08.06.2009 10:20 AM PDT

Voilà!In view,a humble vaudevillian veteran,cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate.This visage, no mere veneer of vanity,is a vestige of the vox populi,now vacant, vanished.However,this valorous visitation of a by-gone vexation,stands vivified and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin van-guarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition.

Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: ramenloverninja
I think your mad, cause you might be wrong about your theory on us playing as Blue Team, and you fear that Bungie will use this opportunity to give us something fresh with these new characters, Seirra 259 and Seirra 320. Its okay some of us feel your pain.


What gives you the feeling that I'm upset? I'm just annoyed at the fact many of the members in this forum have never researched, or read up on the novels. This disproves nearly every theory, leaving room for only original Spartan II's, since those are the only Spartans who participated on the battle of Reach. Not once did I state Blue team in that post.

very well it just that you have stated that if Bungie pulls Class II out of their asses you be mad,

anyways who are James, Mike, and Cassandra what happens to them and what about the 11 unnamed spartans what happens to them

  • 08.06.2009 10:24 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

James=Member of Blue team, who was killed above Reach on Chiefs mission to destroy NAV data. (Technically, he was one of the very few actual MIA spartans)
Mike= Member of Gray team. (Status Unknown)
Cassandra=Injured Spartan II in recovery.

The 11 unnamed spartans mainly formed Beta Team, who failed to protect the Orbital Mac Cannon's safe. Their status is also unknown, but they are presumed to be KIA.

  • 08.06.2009 10:31 AM PDT
  •  | 
  • Veteran Legendary Member

Don't be too quick to discount the class-II's. Halopedia contradicts itself with this page, which says that Class-IIs were conscripted in 2537, 6 years after it was postponed indefinitely. Also, check out this post by ghostvirus in my thread. It, very reasonably, explains how there are so many Spartans at Reach. For the sake of laziness for the reader, here's his post:

If you read the Spartan II page on Halowiki, theres a little snippet about inconsistencies.

Before Reach is attacked, Hasely states "about two Dozen" Spartan IIs, are attending the debriefing. But she notes, that all of the Spartan IIs exept for three else where (gray team) are at the debriefing. Additionally Halo Wars states, 25 out of 28 surviving Spartan IIs regroup at Reach. This is consistent with FoR.

However later in FoR, and in First Strike its states 30 Spartan IIs are fighting at Reach.

That means, there were more Spartan IIs fighting at Reach, then what should of been possible. 30 fought at Reach, three were else where. that brings us to a total of 33 Spartan IIs.
However it is stated, only 28 were alive.

33-28 = 5. There were five Spartan II that fought at Reach, that didn't attend the debriefing, that technically shouldn't exist. There are five Spartan IIs in that banner.

In the trailer, it appears Spartan 259, arrives after the battle of reach begins. Explosions are already going off on Reach. These Spartans, haven't been directly mentioned in Halo before. They are free agents. A completely clean sleet for the game. And I imagine most of what makes up the game, was never references in FoR or First Strike. I also imagine, this game might explain how Buck fought at Reach. But survived to later fight in the invasion of New Mombasa,

--------

There are two good explanations for these Spartans origin:

1. There was a second generation of Spartan IIs.

2. There were originally 33 Spartan IIs, that survived augmentation. But by FoR, there is supposebly only 28. Five were killed, or permentantly injured. Perhaps these were all cover ups. Perhaps they joined a sub-project within the Sp- II program? Theres a problem with that however. They didn't all occur at the same time. And were far apart from one another.

------------------------

I think the call signs made it obvious. There is a second batch of Spartan IIs, and five of them were at Reach. There were only 150 candidates selected for the original Spartan II program. Only 75 made the cut, and only 33 survived augmentation and became SP IIs.

All Spartan II call signs, before the Halo: Reach trailer fell below 150. Then the trailer comes out, and all of a sudden we have a call sign higher than 200, and another higher than 300? This is also the only way to make sense of armour permutations. The original Spartan IIs definetly never used them. So who did?

Beyond that. We have two works of Halo fiction, both considered non-canon, but neither definetly non-canon. That BOTH state, a second generation of Spartan IIs begin in 2537. With one telling us it happens just a couple months after Alpha company of the Sp IIIs gets wiped out. Perhaps ONI realized the value in having the Sp II, and SP III project run parallel with one another?

I think Bungie put a clue in Ghost of Onyx. Nicoles call sign is 45. We are told the Spartan II project was postponed because of a lack of funding, and because Hasely lacked the nessary amount of candidates.

Meanwhile the Spartan III project, was just in the planning stages. And Ackerson figured out a way to find candidates more efficently. Eventually, the funding intended for SP-II class II goes to SP IIIs.

In the first two companies of Sp IIs, there were potential canidates that weren't used. If you add the unused canidates from Alpha, and Beta company up, you get 465. 465-7 = 458. I think the second generation of SP IIs, capitalized on unused canididates from the first two companies of Sp IIs.

  • 08.06.2009 10:37 AM PDT

PLEASE DO NOT SEND ME GROUP INVITATIONS

The Halo REACH Script (post thoughts in thread)

Writing Lead of Whisper Studios. Check out Heron!

Look... I'm on bungiepedia!

Posted by: ramenloverninja
I think your mad, cause you might be wrong about your theory on us playing as Blue Team, and you fear that Bungie will use this opportunity to give us something fresh with these new characters, Seirra 259 and Seirra 320. Its okay some of us feel your pain.
Even if we don't play as Blue Team, the Sierra 259 and 320 don't need to be Class IIs. There were 11 healthy Spartans on the surface of Reach who have no names, no numbers, no fate... yet.

  • 08.06.2009 10:39 AM PDT

Challenge me to a Hawaiian Punch chugging contest. I dare you.


Posted by: mubox47
$.50 in store credit.

I recently read FoR, and from what i understand there were only 150 candidates for the S-II project. I dont think it was narrowed down to 150, but it was 150 all the time. These new Spartans may be something different all together.

  • 08.06.2009 10:40 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Those 5 spartans could of been part of the "Spartan Black" Comic, which features atleast 4 spartans, who were part of ONI, as they have prototype Mark VI before Reach Fell. This could explain the inconsistacys. Hell, maybe they are just typos.

  • 08.06.2009 10:48 AM PDT
  •  | 
  • Exalted Mythic Member

____________(˜˜˜||˜˜˜˜||˜˜˜˜˜)_∏______
l | --------____.`=====.-.~:________\___|================[oo]
|_|||___/___/_/~```|_|_|_|``(o)----------<)

11 un named spartans, and since there is only 1 confirmed spartan in the picture, and only two (apparently, never heard of the mysterious Sierra 320 in the trailer) in the trailer, it's quite plausible.

  • 08.06.2009 10:53 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: Tibetz
11 un named spartans, and since there is only 1 confirmed spartan in the picture, and only two (apparently, never heard of the mysterious Sierra 320 in the trailer) in the trailer, it's quite plausible.


Actually, there is 0 confirmed ANYTHING in the banner.

  • 08.06.2009 10:58 AM PDT
  •  | 
  • Exalted Mythic Member

____________(˜˜˜||˜˜˜˜||˜˜˜˜˜)_∏______
l | --------____.`=====.-.~:________\___|================[oo]
|_|||___/___/_/~```|_|_|_|``(o)----------<)

Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: Tibetz
11 un named spartans, and since there is only 1 confirmed spartan in the picture, and only two (apparently, never heard of the mysterious Sierra 320 in the trailer) in the trailer, it's quite plausible.


Actually, there is 0 confirmed ANYTHING in the banner.

Sorry, 1 LIKELY spartan.

  • 08.06.2009 11:33 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

5 likely spartans...

  • 08.06.2009 11:36 AM PDT

Voilà!In view,a humble vaudevillian veteran,cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate.This visage, no mere veneer of vanity,is a vestige of the vox populi,now vacant, vanished.However,this valorous visitation of a by-gone vexation,stands vivified and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin van-guarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition.

Posted by: privet caboose
James=Member of Blue team, who was killed above Reach on Chiefs mission to destroy NAV data. (Technically, he was one of the very few actual MIA spartans)
Mike= Member of Gray team. (Status Unknown)
Cassandra=Injured Spartan II in recovery.

The 11 unnamed spartans mainly formed Beta Team, who failed to protect the Orbital Mac Cannon's safe. Their status is also unknown, but they are presumed to be KIA.


From this we can rule out James, Mike, and Cassandra. Team beta is a good possiblity

but since Joe hasn't say anything related to Class II canonical status since the interview, we should not rule out that possiblity instead we should keep its status neutral, we don't know bungies desicion on this yet and they may still be discussing its canonical status. or waiting to release its status with Reach

  • 08.06.2009 11:51 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

It's been 3 years with no mention, Plus, Frankie isn't with Bungie anymore.

  • 08.06.2009 12:24 PM PDT

Voilà!In view,a humble vaudevillian veteran,cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate.This visage, no mere veneer of vanity,is a vestige of the vox populi,now vacant, vanished.However,this valorous visitation of a by-gone vexation,stands vivified and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin van-guarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition.

Posted by: privet caboose
It's been 3 years with no mention, Plus, Frankie isn't with Bungie anymore.

I will wait

  • 08.06.2009 1:30 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: ramenloverninja
Posted by: privet caboose
It's been 3 years with no mention, Plus, Frankie isn't with Bungie anymore.

I will wait


Have fun with that. ;)

  • 08.06.2009 5:48 PM PDT