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Subject: Real Vehicle Damage and Better Implementation

We're building a better world...all of them, better worlds.

Halo 2 touted real vehicle damage, but we really got a vehicle that we could essentially change the skin of with our weapons. You might blow off a hub cap or fender, but it didn't really affect the vehicle or how it performed.

Halo 3 saw a bit of complexity added to this system. On top of greater damage possibilities, brand new warthogs, for example, are also somewhat "sticky proof." In other words, a warthog with little or no damage can survive a plasma grenade stuck to certain parts of the body. A damaged warthog will not, however.

In both games, the only real way to take down a vehicle is to kill the occupants. The vehicle explodes if you simultaneously do enough damage to kill the occupants and destroy the vehicle. This is an interesting development in how vehicles work in shooter games, but it's ultimately flat. Players recognize the inner workings, and the illusion is lost.

I'm wondering if Reach will see greater implementation of the vehicle damage system. For example, at present, it's ultimately futile to shoot a warthog with small arms fire for any other reason than to attempt to flip it or hope you hit the occupants. What if it were possible for a battle rifle to damage a warthog enough that eventually the engine is affected? Certainly, unmanned vehicles are susceptible, so why can't manned vehicles be? Further, what if vehicle damage affected the performance of the vehicle? Perhaps a damaged warthog will not drive straight or move as quickly. Perhaps engine fires could eventually lead to the destruction of the vehicle. In addition, what about the possibility of being able to mount a gun turret of a warthog that has been mostly destroyed?

Essentially, what I'm getting at is something similar but more complex to Banshee damage in Halo: CE. The Banshee has health in Halo: CE, and if that health is depleted, the Banshee explodes, killing the pilot. This means it's possible to kill a banshee with something like a plasma pistol if you shoot it enough. However, I'd like to see something more dynamic, such as being able to shoot the tires out on a hog or being able to disable one thruster on a banshee, effectively killing its boost capability, unless the pilot wants to do donuts.

Of course, we don't want to render the purpose of power weapons null, but it might be interesting to be able to contribute to killing a warthog off spawn instead of knowing you should run, hide, and hopefully find a hog killer. Consideration would be necessary to balance this system in multiplayer, but I think it could essentially enhance game play and make vehicle implementation more natural.

  • 08.13.2009 8:34 AM PDT
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I completely agree.

  • 08.13.2009 8:51 AM PDT

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Actually, I really love the idea of stacking players shields unto the overall health of a warthog. It is a good system. Otherwise, you could eventually be able to bow up a hog with two fully shileded occupants with a burst of BR fire. That would kind of suck.

I suppose it would be kinda cool if they kept the current system of health, but the driving physics would change when certain areas are damaged, like have it pull the the side if you have taken a lot of damage to one side, or degrade turning and braking. But so far, I really like the idea of stacking shield unto vehicle health. Even knowing how it works doesn't take away anything from my hoggin experience.

  • 08.13.2009 8:57 AM PDT

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Shooting the tires would be sick! I agree with you on this. I didn't know until recently that the health of the hog was determined by the individuals within it. Crazy.

  • 08.13.2009 9:03 AM PDT

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Posted by: Obi Wan Stevobi
Otherwise, you could eventually be able to bow up a hog with two fully shileded occupants with a burst of BR fire. That would kind of suck.

Indeed. I think the key would be implementation. For example, one guy shooting a hog with a BR =/= 'splosion. However, what if an entire team is shooting a hog with a mix of fire from different weapons? I'm proposing that this wouldn't be easy. I'm not saying a bunch of BR bullets should kill a hog. At least not quickly.

I think I like the degenerative feature of this kind of thing most of all. If a hog looks completely trashed, I think it should drive like it. And I think it would be cool if, eventually, BR fire did enough damage to either make the vehicle undrivable or destroy it altogether.

There are other factors to consider for implementation, too, such as vehicle armor. For example, I think it's appropriate that small arms fire has absolutely no effect on tanks. However, what if small arms fire could affect the treads on a Scorpion so that, eventually, the tread breaks and the tank becomes immobile?

  • 08.13.2009 9:06 AM PDT

This is cool. Thread Saved. Shoot off 1 tire, vehicle has trouble turning and is slower, shoot off to and it basically stops almost completely. Shoot off 3 and the warthog isn't going anywhere no matter what happens... well... things can always happen.... but you catch my drift.

  • 08.13.2009 9:45 AM PDT

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If it was possible to alter the physics engine like some other racing games were the level of damage to the vehicle translates into how the vehicle operates. That would be very cool. What I would not want is some guy with a Magnum being able to take out a tank.

  • 08.13.2009 10:22 AM PDT
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"Posted by: Kickimanjaro
I'm trying to become an '04, but it's not working too well."

Give it a GTA sort of health system. If the engine is shot enough, it catches fire, giving the occupants 10 seconds or so to bail out or blow up.


Hit enough rocks, the engine dies.

Tires blow out.
Tires fall off if taking a massive drop

you get it

  • 08.13.2009 10:50 AM PDT

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I prefer a system of vehicle damage that has an impact personally. Halo 3 MM would often piss me off with a warthog surviving a direct rocket to the front of the vehicle or a sticky on the side near the driver. If the vehicles are destroyed the passengers should die. Mind you I said destroyed. If a wheel get's blown off (depends on how far they take it) that should not kill anyone, but it should certainly ruin the vehicle.

I liked how they Ghost was handled in Halo2, shooting it anywhere would cause chip damage depending on what weapon you were using, and it would eventually either fall apart or blow up and kill the rider. Shooting the "engine" on the side would cause an explosion that would typically kill the pilot, no matter what you shot it with.

  • 08.13.2009 11:07 AM PDT
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Posted by: scotsoe
I completely agree.


EDIT: This reminds me of my battle damage idea.

[Edited on 08.13.2009 11:19 AM PDT]

  • 08.13.2009 11:19 AM PDT

We're building a better world...all of them, better worlds.

I don't think I'd like them to take it so far as to damage a warthog if it rolls, for example. Part of the fun of driving these vehicles is being able to pull off crazy stunts.

  • 08.13.2009 12:35 PM PDT

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Posted by: MADMAN Redux
I don't think I'd like them to take it so far as to damage a warthog if it rolls, for example. Part of the fun of driving these vehicles is being able to pull off crazy stunts.


I'll give you that, it would get kind of stupid if they felt breakable. But the weapons, specifically the explosives should have much more effect on them.

  • 08.13.2009 1:04 PM PDT

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I really like your ideas and completely agree with you. I love when games pay attention to finer more realistic details. I would like to see some of this destruction in the game --

- Shoot out the warthog wheels and it's more hard to control. Wobbles and leans to one side
- Do massive damage to the warthogs turret and it falls off. The empty back can now be used for an additional passenger to sit in
- Shoot the hood of the warthog and the warthog is slower
- Shoot out a banshees wing and it leans in one direction. Harder to control
- Shoot out both wings on a banshee or hornet and the vehicle plummets to the ground. If the vehicle is high enough, you die with it
- Destroy a tanks tracks and it isn't operable

Of course to do all this, you would have to deal some significant damage to the vehicle. It wouldn't be like a pistol shot to the hood and now you're slower.

The list could go on. I can see this being a problem to program and make it possible for matchmaking so I don't know how well these ideas could actually work. That and the fun factor of using these vehicles might be a problem. I really have no idea how drastically this would affect gameplay.

Only time will tell :)

[Edited on 08.13.2009 1:19 PM PDT]

  • 08.13.2009 1:17 PM PDT
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- Destroy a tanks tracks and it isn't operable
yes but you still should be able to shoot.
If the game gets this realistic shouldent a sniper rifle get broken or a bend in the barrel when it drops from the top of a bulding?

  • 08.13.2009 3:23 PM PDT

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Posted by: Sethinator23
I can see this being a problem to program and make it possible for matchmaking so I don't know how well these ideas could actually work.

I'm sure it's much more difficult to do something like this than it sounds. However, the details are in the design and implementation. We already have a measure of this in the game. It simply doesn't really take effect. You shoot the front fender enough, and it becomes damaged. Why can't they section parts of the vehicle to have a hit point value? Once it drops to a certain level, it enters stage 2 of damage. When it drops to a lower level, it enters stage 3 of damage. And so on and so forth until it actually begins to affect performance of the vehicle.

Other more primitive games have done this. Perhaps not online; however, I'm thinking to games that were popular a decade ago. Most notable are racing games. Some even had a HUD element where you could track the damage of your vehicle.

Hell, WoW does this on a literal level. Each piece of your equipment has a hit point pool, and when you get to a certain level, you lose the benefits of that piece of equipment and have to fix it. Of course, damage distribution in WoW equal for all parts of equipment, I believe.

  • 08.14.2009 7:54 AM PDT

Just enjoy the damn game!
Who cares about BR vs AR

Isn't there a correlation between how much the vehicle is damaged, and how much you take damage? So the more the vehicle is damaged, the more damage you will take? Or has this been put in the OP or others and I just havn't read it properly?
Fantastic Idea though. I hope bungie is listening...

  • 08.14.2009 8:13 AM PDT

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Maybe when you enter a vehicle your HUD uplinks with it, and gives you the status of the parts of the vehicle, such as wheels, engines/hood, body, ect. So you can cripple a vehicle by attacking certain spots,

Like it shows a picture of the vehicle near your health bar, then the color of the area will determine health. If the wheels are red, they're about to pop, making it harder to control. If the engine/hood is red, it's about to blow, which would stop the vehicle from moving and take your sheilds down. If the body is red, then you better get out because the vehicle is about to go KA-BOOM

It would make using vehicles a tactical choice, instead of a dead giveaway

  • 08.14.2009 9:14 AM PDT
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OP,
like everybody else I agree, but the vehicle damage were not that simple in H2.
you could blow a ghost up with ONE sniper round, 3 br bursts, or one single brute shot grenade. you had to target the left side of the ghost, there is a kind of round tank thingie that was extra fragile.

  • 08.14.2009 9:19 AM PDT

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Good ideas

  • 08.14.2009 9:28 AM PDT

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Posted by: z0rgy
OP,
like everybody else I agree, but the vehicle damage were not that simple in H2.
you could blow a ghost up with ONE sniper round, 3 br bursts, or one single brute shot grenade. you had to target the left side of the ghost, there is a kind of round tank thingie that was extra fragile.

Yeah, I forgot about that. I wonder why they removed it for Halo 3.

This suggests Bungie consciously has shied away from such a vehicle concept. Perhaps for balance issues? However, I see something like this, if implemented in an intelligent manner, helping to balance vehicles in a more encompassing way. Rather, instead of needing to design maps with hog killers, level designers could look at giving players more geographic advantages, for example.

  • 08.14.2009 9:35 AM PDT

Posted by: Obi Wan Stevobi
Actually, I really love the idea of stacking players shields unto the overall health of a warthog. It is a good system. Otherwise, you could eventually be able to bow up a hog with two fully shileded occupants with a burst of BR fire. That would kind of suck.

I suppose it would be kinda cool if they kept the current system of health, but the driving physics would change when certain areas are damaged, like have it pull the the side if you have taken a lot of damage to one side, or degrade turning and braking. But so far, I really like the idea of stacking shield unto vehicle health. Even knowing how it works doesn't take away anything from my hoggin experience.

agreed. stacking really could spice up vehicles~!
the current method however, is already quite good. A more beat-up hog would take more damage from incoming fire (thus making new warthogs 'sticky-proof')

  • 08.14.2009 9:36 AM PDT

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Posted by: dmg04
Give it a GTA sort of health system. If the engine is shot enough, it catches fire, giving the occupants 10 seconds or so to bail out or blow up.


Hit enough rocks, the engine dies.

Tires blow out.
Tires fall off if taking a massive drop

you get it
I dont think that is necessary. These are military grade vehicles, and it's set in the future. I do think it's a little ridiculous when a whole brute shot clip doesnt take out a hog but sniping a Pilot out of a hornet will blow up the Vehicle.

  • 08.14.2009 9:39 AM PDT

Shields should form around the vehicle when you are in them, so the Warthog or Tank is using yours, and your passenger's shields as health. The more people, the stronger the vehicle.

  • 08.14.2009 9:59 AM PDT

I think we should be able to damage the players inside by shooting any part of the body such as in Halo CE, but if a vehicle is more damaged, shots do more damage, so do direct shots to the enemy.

  • 08.14.2009 10:50 AM PDT

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