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Subject: Bungie, PLEASE cater to your hardcore crowd!

Mythical Group

There is no greater catharsis than arguing on the Flood.

There's a difference to balanced weapons and easy to pick up controls. Just like there is a difference between actually using your weapon skillfully or using a weapon that's just plain better in many situations.

  • 08.17.2009 10:21 AM PDT

SUPER NICE!!!

Posted by: halo2jumper
Posted by: RStuck3
Flame ON

The battle rifle is the most over powered weapon in video game history

Flame OFF


The AR is overpowered...


Wow, if anything its underpowered in H3. H1 AR is the beast weapon I want back.

  • 08.17.2009 10:23 AM PDT

Character Artist -- Electronic Arts

Posted by: frogpjb
Posted by: SS_Crow
Posted by: flamedude
My only main gripes with Halo 3 were the networking issues and lag, and the ridiculous Laser. BR is fine to me, its balanced.

Did you even play Halo 2?
Halo 3 does an astounding job with networking.
My brother steals wireless from his neighbors. Which causes him to have a severe disadvantage in CoD4. But in Halo 3, its all pretty legit.

Are you serious? I didn't play Halo 2 enough to really judge that game networking wise, but Halo 3 just fails. You might not notice it all that much, but if you start to play gametypes where that last BR shot really counts you'll start to notice some problems. The design of having each BR bullet use a different packet on the internet is poor, and the way that the BR bullets get returned to your clips just compound things. Let's do some math:
Each BR shot = 3 bullets = 3 packets
Let's say one packet gets lost somewhere. That means you're one bullet down on the guy.
Next your lost bullet gets returned to your BR for some reason. I have no idea why Bungie programmed the game to do this, but they did, so now your next shot only contains one bullet.
So let's say you and another guy each start firing at the same time. You both land two shots. You need to land two more to out BR the guy, but out of your next shot, only two bullets hit, and because of the bullet return stuff your next shot only shoots one bullet. So from two shots, you only get one. So by this time the other guy has four shotted you and you're only been able to get the damage from 3 shots onto him after firing four.

Don't even start.
Halo 2 was aweful when it came to networking.
Halo 3 is a godsend by comparison. And easily trumps other games on the market in this regard.
Also, unless you are one of the engineers like Luke Timmins who wrote the Netcode, don't even begin to try and lecture me on the specifics of Hitscan weapons and bandwidth management.

If your "lost Bullets" are being "returned" to your BR. you need to go to another ISP, because this phenomenon that you are describing is so contrary to my experiences, that I am more than certain that you have either bad internet or you are full of trash. And thus, just trollin the forum.

  • 08.17.2009 10:25 AM PDT

Alt+F4=secret weapon in Halo PC!

Posted by: SS_Crow
I agree the AR spawn on large maps sucks. But still, the BR being the only weapon that is ever needed does not encourage diversity.

Since when has "diversity" become a synonym for "great gameplay"? I don't understand why you have the need to pick up multiple weapons in one game, and my guess is that if you think about it, you already don't. Let's say you spawn with a close range AR and a medium range BR. You switch weapons according to the situation. Just like you said. Everything goes great, you win the game, everybody's happy.
Why didn't you pick up another weapon? The SMG and the Spikers work just as well if not better than the AR at close ranges. It's because there's no point. Diversity does not make the game better. It seems like Bungie had the game philosophy that throwing weapons at H3 would make the replayability of the game better, but it really doesn't.
Also, constantly having different utilitarian weapons in the game wouldn't really do anything. Part of the fun of Halo, (at least for me and a lot of other people) is trying to outskill your opponents, knowing that you're on an even playing field and the best man will win. Unless Bungie just makes a bunch of weapons with the exact same capabilities of the BR, that whole even playing field aspect of Halo is thrown out the window and the game quickly becomes a scramble for whichever weapon is deemed best for the map, and whoever grabs those weapons first essentially dominates the game.

  • 08.17.2009 10:26 AM PDT

Alt+F4=secret weapon in Halo PC!

Posted by: SS_Crow
Don't even start.
Halo 2 was aweful when it came to networking.
Halo 3 is a godsend by comparison. And easily trumps other games on the market in this regard.
Also, unless you are one of the engineers like Luke Timmins who wrote the Netcode, don't even begin to try and lecture me on the specifics of Hitscan weapons and bandwidth management.

If your "lost Bullets" are being "returned" to your BR. you need to go to another ISP, because this phenomenon that you are describing is so contrary to my experiences, that I am more than certain that you have either bad internet or you are full of trash. And thus, just trollin the forum.

It happens to everyone. Look at your BR clip sometime and you'll notice what I'm talking about. One of the protocols of networking is that lost packets get returned to the sender. The reciever can tell if packets have been lost due to a thing that's included with each packet called a preamble (I THINK, it's been a while since I took my networking course), and if the preamble doesn't match what's in the packets, then the packet gets sent back.
I might not work for Bungie, but that doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. There are other people in the world who know what networking is about that the people who work for Bungie.
Also, you talk about your brother stealing internet and never having any problems, you're probable host close to every game. With Halo 3s networking, the host decides everything that goes on in the game based on the most current information available to it. If you don't believe me, go ahead and search through Bungie's weekly updates. It was one of the first updates after Halo 3s release.

[Edited on 08.17.2009 10:32 AM PDT]

  • 08.17.2009 10:30 AM PDT

Johnny

i think that the weapons are fine but the rank order needs a little more work to keep the weaker players away from the good players that way everyone plays people of similar skill. If you are looking for a easy game that you can always win at there are always other games than halo for you to try.

  • 08.17.2009 10:32 AM PDT

Posted by: LoneStaruner
Sorry your "Hardcore" crowd isn't that hardcore. The Hardcore crowd is the fans of the Original Halo game the Pistol 3 shot kill, NO AUTOAIM, made it a lot harder to play. Instead they dumbed down Halo a lot since then


Maybe you should play some more CE because it had AUTOAIM, for every weapon, even if it was just a little magnetism. I do agree though, Halo has really been dumbed down every since Halo 2, Bungie knows this though and they don't care.

Bungie doesn't realize Halo CE was a shining example of how to make depth in a game, a game that caters to all players, and they weren't really even trying to do that. Now they try to do that and they try to much, they see things that aren't there, and as a result we got Halo 2, a huge disappointment and Halo 3, which has more meleeing in it than any FPS should ever.

  • 08.17.2009 10:34 AM PDT

Character Artist -- Electronic Arts

Posted by: frogpjb
Posted by: SS_Crow
Don't even start.
Halo 2 was aweful when it came to networking.
Halo 3 is a godsend by comparison. And easily trumps other games on the market in this regard.
Also, unless you are one of the engineers like Luke Timmins who wrote the Netcode, don't even begin to try and lecture me on the specifics of Hitscan weapons and bandwidth management.

If your "lost Bullets" are being "returned" to your BR. you need to go to another ISP, because this phenomenon that you are describing is so contrary to my experiences, that I am more than certain that you have either bad internet or you are full of trash. And thus, just trollin the forum.

It happens to everyone. Look at your BR clip sometime and you'll notice what I'm talking about. One of the protocols of networking is that lost packets get returned to the sender. The reciever can tell if packets have been lost due to a thing that's included with each packet called a preamble (I THINK, it's been a while since I took my networking course), and if the preamble doesn't match what's in the packets, then the packet gets sent back.
I might not work for Bungie, but that doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. There are other people in the world who know what networking is about that the people who work for Bungie.

What you have described. That only happens when the game is about to transfer Host due to severe lag. And seemingly never happens during regular play.

Like I said, change your ISP, because obviously YOU have a very specific problem, that is not widespread across the community. Thus your accusations that Halo 3 has bad networking are unfounded.

I have never had a clip be extended due to packet loss, I have however experience a game where the hosts network could not maintain the match, and leading into the transfer the host information is locked and transferred to the new Host. But clients can still fire their weapons even though that is not confirmation from the host.

  • 08.17.2009 10:35 AM PDT

Character Artist -- Electronic Arts

Posted by: frogpjb
Posted by: SS_Crow
I agree the AR spawn on large maps sucks. But still, the BR being the only weapon that is ever needed does not encourage diversity.

Since when has "diversity" become a synonym for "great gameplay"? I don't understand why you have the need to pick up multiple weapons in one game, and my guess is that if you think about it, you already don't. Let's say you spawn with a close range AR and a medium range BR. You switch weapons according to the situation. Just like you said. Everything goes great, you win the game, everybody's happy.
Why didn't you pick up another weapon? The SMG and the Spikers work just as well if not better than the AR at close ranges. It's because there's no point. Diversity does not make the game better. It seems like Bungie had the game philosophy that throwing weapons at H3 would make the replayability of the game better, but it really doesn't.
Also, constantly having different utilitarian weapons in the game wouldn't really do anything. Part of the fun of Halo, (at least for me and a lot of other people) is trying to outskill your opponents, knowing that you're on an even playing field and the best man will win. Unless Bungie just makes a bunch of weapons with the exact same capabilities of the BR, that whole even playing field aspect of Halo is thrown out the window and the game quickly becomes a scramble for whichever weapon is deemed best for the map, and whoever grabs those weapons first essentially dominates the game.

Its more than apparent at this point you are just trollin.
So whatever, I am not going to be responding to this thread, as you obviously are here to try and prove everyone else wrong instead of having a valid discussion on the gameplay mechanics that the community feels should be changed.

  • 08.17.2009 10:38 AM PDT

Alt+F4=secret weapon in Halo PC!

Posted by: SS_Crow
What you have described. That only happens when the game is about to transfer Host due to severe lag. And seemingly never happens during regular play.

Like I said, change your ISP, because obviously YOU have a very specific problem, that is not widespread across the community. Thus your accusations that Halo 3 has bad networking are unfounded.

I have never had a clip be extended due to packet loss, I have however experience a game where the hosts network could not maintain the match, and leading into the transfer the host information is locked and transferred to the new Host. But clients can still fire their weapons even though that is not confirmation from the host.

Look up the basics of networking. You'll see what I'm talking about. It's not just "my connection, it's the basic protocols of networking. If you didn't have this protocol, then the sender of the packets would just be eternally waiting for the return packets, and nothing would ever get done.
Think of it this way: Lets say you type in www.google.com. Along the way, your request package gets lost one way or another. However, your preamble makes it's way to the receiver, and the receiving computer looks at the preamble and realizes something is missing. The receiving computer now let's your computer know what happen, so that your computer can resend the packets to the other computer or server or whatever. If this protocol didn't exist, you would just sit there and wait for google for hours on end. This protocol of returning damaged packets is one of the mainstays of networking and Halo 3 is no different. Like I said, if you're never experienced dropped packets, you're most likely getting host close to every game.

  • 08.17.2009 10:42 AM PDT

Alt+F4=secret weapon in Halo PC!

Posted by: SS_Crow
Its more than apparent at this point you are just trollin.
So whatever, I am not going to be responding to this thread, as you obviously are here to try and prove everyone else wrong instead of having a valid discussion on the gameplay mechanics that the community feels should be changed.

I'm making a valid point so I'm trolling?
If I was trolling, I would do this: "SS_Crow is such a nub he can't even tell when he's gotten network packing". But I would never say something like that, because that would incite an angry emotional response and wouldn't further the debate.

  • 08.17.2009 10:44 AM PDT

On Waypoint I'm rocketFox;
http://halo.xbox.com/forums/members/rocketfox/default.aspx

Old GTs; RebelRobot, Flamedude

I personally have found that Halo 3 is as bad and perhaps even worse for a good BTB game than Halo 2. Certainly not better.

Social BTB is pretty terrible in H3 with a full 16 players, half of the games I play have yellow bars or just bad bullet registry. Scorpion rounds hit Hornets and do nothing, Sniper rounds hit people square in the head to no effect. H2 was not perfect by any means but H3 is not a massive leap at all in terms of game performance from a players perspective. Technical improvements aside H3 is still extremely prone to bad performance over t'intertubes. For me anyways.

  • 08.17.2009 10:55 AM PDT

My H3 File Share for all your guilty pleasures...
My favorite professional Halo team ever: Final Boss

Bumper Jumper, 3 sensitivity, no vibration (H:CE & H2 are Boxer)
Halo 2 being my favorite Halo game to date
Halo fan since 2003

I'm a Halo fan since '03 and we, the 'Hardcore' fans, want the H:CE Pistol back, not any kind of the BR or a new weapon that takes 'skill'.

On a side note, I think Halo: Reach will be a completely different game and it will be made for the competitive community. I just have the feeling that this is going to be a Halo game that can compete with the skill level of H:CE. Halo 3: ODST will be the last of it's kind. Made for newcomers and veteran players with a decent balance of weapons and horrible maps.

I'm geussing Halo: Reach will be like H:CE, but of course with a new gameplay style. Really fast-paced gameplay, perfect (H:CE style) maps for controling, average balance in weapons, 2 or 3 new weapons being the most dominant (overpowered) in the entire game (not like H3 since they balanced everything out which can be good, but I hope not) and cool new features (not like the stupid equipment that slowed H3 down more - it's a slow-paced game after all).

So the only thing you have to worry about is that Bungie makes this game for the competitive community since they already made 2 games in a row (H3 & H3: ODST) for the 'new' community and n00bed everything out ;)

Summary: I hope the beta multiplayer of Halo: Reach will be competitive and for God's sake, something new. Enough with the aggressive shields in multiplayer and battle against the Covenant-Flood-Getting the Index-Sentinels vs Flood vs Covenant vs You-Saving the galaxy and nothing else matters storyline in campaign. WE HAD ENOUGH!

  • 08.17.2009 11:02 AM PDT

Alt+F4=secret weapon in Halo PC!

Posted by: BAy4R
I'm a Halo fan since '03 and we, the 'Hardcore' fans, want the H:CE Pistol back, not any kind of the BR or a new weapon that takes 'skill'.

On a side note, I think Halo: Reach will be a completely different game and it will be made for the competitive community. I just have the feeling that this is going to be a Halo game that can compete with the skill level of H:CE. Halo 3: ODST will be the last of it's kind. Made for newcomers and veteran players with a decent balance of weapons and horrible maps.

I'm geussing Halo: Reach will be like H:CE, but of course with a new gameplay style. Really fast-paced gameplay, perfect (H:CE style) maps for controling, average balance in weapons, 2 or 3 new weapons being the most dominant (overpowered) in the entire game (not like H3 since they balanced everything out which can be good, but I hope not) and cool new features (not like the stupid equipment that slowed H3 down more - it's a slow-paced game after all).

So the only thing you have to worry about is that Bungie makes this game for the competitive community since they already made 2 games in a row (H3 & H3: ODST) for the 'new' community and n00bed everything out ;)

Summary: I hope the beta multiplayer of Halo: Reach will be competitive and for God's sake, something new. Enough with the aggressive shields in multiplayer and battle against the Covenant-Flood-Getting the Index-Sentinels vs Flood vs Covenant vs You-Saving the galaxy and nothing else matters storyline in campaign. WE HAD ENOUGH!

This is basically what I'm trying to get at. And I hope to god you are right about Halo Reach being competitive. Well said.

[Edited on 08.17.2009 11:04 AM PDT]

  • 08.17.2009 11:04 AM PDT
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Posted by: frogpjb
Posted by: xHalfEvilx
Are you suggesting the over-powered BR that Halo 2 had?

Yep. What's wrong with having a spawn weapon that can actually kill people? When I spawn on Standoff, I'd like to be able to actually damage the people who are stupid enough to run out across the map even if they're far away from me.

Also, I don't have that much of a problem with the Halo 3 BR with it just being harder to four shot. What I have a problem with is when I put seven bullets into someone and they live to tell the tale due to Bungie's crappy networking system for Matchmaking.
The Halo 3 BR on LAN is nearly twice as powerful as the BR in a regular old game of Team Slayer.

It was OVER-POWERED! It was too easy to get kills with so it took less skill than the Halo 3 BR.

  • 08.17.2009 11:06 AM PDT

This account was destroyed by data corruption. My other account is Ylthorin.

If you want to have fun when playing games, relaxing and other stuff like that, feel free to drop by and join The Gaming Knights.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh...don't you just love the smell that comes with any good BR vs. AR thread? Smells like a nice barbecue.

All sarcasm aside, I do not view that games should be made for a hardcore crowd at all. Games are there to have fun, not for winning. I feel as if people have lost their way and forgotten what a game is all about.

Both the BR and the AR are overpowered in their own ways, and we do not need to bring up another ranting thread about either. So shall we get back to the actual discussion about "catering" to the hardcore crowd?

  • 08.17.2009 11:12 AM PDT

OP, paragraphs plox?

Anyway, Bungie is going to make a game that the majority will play. Sadly, the hardcore fans are not the majority and as such, we are not going to that the game that we want.

  • 08.17.2009 11:15 AM PDT

"Welcome to the Greatest Show Unearthed"

The BR isn't hardcore just because MLG says so. It's the most unbalanced weapon in the game. Give us the original assault rifle back, and the original pistol.

  • 08.17.2009 11:20 AM PDT

Alt+F4=secret weapon in Halo PC!

Posted by: Zuka Zammane
All sarcasm aside, I do not view that games should be made for a hardcore crowd at all. Games are there to have fun, not for winning. I feel as if people have lost their way and forgotten what a game is all about.

Both the BR and the AR are overpowered in their own ways, and we do not need to bring up another ranting thread about either. So shall we get back to the actual discussion about "catering" to the hardcore crowd?

I didn't mean for this thread to become a BR rant thread. I simply was trying to put out there that Reach needs to have an aspect of competitiveness to it that Halo 3 really has started to lose.

Second, while I wholeheartedly agree that there should always be a side of Halo where you can just go in and ride around on Mongooses for fun (it's called Social) part of the enjoyment of the game to many such as myself is increasing your knowledge and abilities of the game. The beauty of Halo is that you can have both. However, if Bungie continues to reduce the effectiveness of weapons in the game to the point where the best player in the world can be beaten by the newest player to the game, then there won't be a competitive aspect to the game.

  • 08.17.2009 11:25 AM PDT
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I find a few problems with the OP's logic that I'll point out...

1. You obviously have some confusion with how the bullets work over XbL. 3 bullets does indeed = 3 packets. No sometimes, not always, one of those packets gets dropped. This does not mean that your next BR shot shoots one bullet... this means that your next BR shot shoots 3 with the possibility of 2-3 actually being sent to the host. Your bullets are not reloaded during steady BR fire; they are reloaded RIGHT before you reload. Your BR always shoots 3 bullets and always registers at least 2 of those.

2. There is no difference between the XbL BR and the LAN BR in Halo 3 aside from bullet registration and a slight increase in accuracy. This, of course, being unless you're constantly in yellow bar... LAN BR == Host BR. Get a better connection, pull host more.

3. If it takes you 7 shots to kill someone, the problem is not the game, it is your aim. MLG playlist has a 110% damage which basically plays like LAN. If you don't 4shot in MLG, fix your aim. It takes 11/12 BR bullets to get a kill in Halo 3 (12 bullets = 4 shot). Even in a worst case scenario where 1 bullet from each shot is dropped, at 2 bullets per shot you'll need 6 to kill. You should be averaging 5-6 shots (in non MLG playlists) to get a kill. There's no excuse not to.

4. The only point you've made that I agree with is that Halo 3 has too many weapons with many of them doing the same thing with slight variations. SMGs and Spikers come to mind. Mauler and shotgun as well, aside from the power difference and ability to dual-wield.

The Halo 3 BR takes FAR more skill to use then the Halo 2 BR.
Halo 2 had a hit-scan BR: where you aimed, thats were the bullets went.
Halo 3 requires you to lead targets based on distance.

I'm not out to flame the OP... just saying that you might want to look into the mechanics of a game before you start pointing out "problems".

  • 08.17.2009 11:26 AM PDT

bring the flame

Posted by: RStuck3
Flame ON

The battle rifle is the most over powered weapon in video game history

Flame OFF


you never played serious sam did you?

  • 08.17.2009 11:35 AM PDT

Alt+F4=secret weapon in Halo PC!

Posted by: HC Kat
1. You obviously have some confusion with how the bullets work over XbL. 3 bullets does indeed = 3 packets. No sometimes, not always, one of those packets gets dropped. This does not mean that your next BR shot shoots one bullet... this means that your next BR shot shoots 3 with the possibility of 2-3 actually being sent to the host. Your bullets are not reloaded during steady BR fire; they are reloaded RIGHT before you reload. Your BR always shoots 3 bullets and always registers at least 2 of those.

2. There is no difference between the XbL BR and the LAN BR in Halo 3 aside from bullet registration and a slight increase in accuracy. This, of course, being unless you're constantly in yellow bar... LAN BR == Host BR. Get a better connection, pull host more.

3. If it takes you 7 shots to kill someone, the problem is not the game, it is your aim. MLG playlist has a 110% damage which basically plays like LAN. If you don't 4shot in MLG, fix your aim. It takes 11/12 BR bullets to get a kill in Halo 3 (12 bullets = 4 shot). Even in a worst case scenario where 1 bullet from each shot is dropped, at 2 bullets per shot you'll need 6 to kill. You should be averaging 5-6 shots (in non MLG playlists) to get a kill. There's no excuse not to.

1. If what you say is true, that how do I end up with 1 BR bullet left in the clip?. Double network packing?

2. There's no difference in the mechanics of the XBL BR and LAN BR. The difference, as you have stated, is connection. However, even in green bar, you'll drop packets. If the only way to get a decent connection online is to be host constantly, then obviously the networking system is flawed.

3. There are a lot of reason other than bad aim for taking 7 shots to kill someone. The first and foremost is lag. At distances other than close range, if I'm not host, with even just a little lag the place where it looks like I'm shooting could be very different that what the host says it is. I can be shooting someone perfectly in the head on my screen while in reality the host says I'm shooting the wall next to the guy. And of course you've talked about networking packing. In short, even if on my screen I'm not missing a shot, tiny amounts of lag and network packing can easily create an environment where it takes more than 5 shots to kill someone in regular matchmaking OR MLG.

  • 08.17.2009 11:47 AM PDT

Posted by: Duardo
I'd love to be a 10 year old and tell my mom I'm going on an adventure out into the world catching Pokemon, with her full support. Never mind the fact that there are rapists, criminals, and murders out there, or the fact that I may get killed by a Pokemon.

Luckily I have Pikachu.

Posted by: ABotelho
Posted by: The BS Police
Posted by: TheUseless0ne
Bungie caters to no one.
They cater to the casual players who don't care about the campaign mode

They've said it themselves. They make the games they want to play.
No, thats a lame excuse, espeically when you look at all the shortcomings in Halo 2 and Halo 3. When Bungie makes a campaign mode, they have to live up to the hardcore fans expectations for the story. If they don't then they didn't do good enough.

[Edited on 08.17.2009 11:51 AM PDT]

  • 08.17.2009 11:50 AM PDT

PLEASE DO NOT SEND ME GROUP INVITATIONS

The Halo REACH Script (post thoughts in thread)

Writing Lead of Whisper Studios. Check out Heron!

Look... I'm on bungiepedia!

You can either make the game more random/noob-friendly (Halo 2/3) and cater to the Casual majority.... or you can make the game more consistent/skill-based (Halo 1) and cater to both the Casual majority AND the Hardcore minority.

'HOW IS THIS?' you ask?

If the game is harder to master, the ranking system would work. Bad players against bad players, Average against average, Good against good, Great against great. The game is harder to master, but the bad player won't even know.

He will be having just as much fun as he is now... because, though he sucks at aiming, the person on the other end of his reticle is just as bad at strafing and shooting back.

  • 08.17.2009 11:51 AM PDT

Alt+F4=secret weapon in Halo PC!

Posted by: MLG Cheehwawa
You can either make the game more random/noob-friendly (Halo 2/3) and cater to the Casual majority.... or you can make the game more consistent/skill-based (Halo 1) and cater to both the Casual majority AND the Hardcore minority.

'HOW IS THIS?' you ask?

If the game is harder to master, the ranking system would work. Bad players against bad players, Average against average, Good against good, Great against great. The game is harder to master, but the bad player won't even know.

He will be having just as much fun as he is now... because, though he sucks at aiming, the person on the other end of his reticle is just as bad at strafing and shooting back.

Precisely. You just summed up what I've been trying to say.

  • 08.17.2009 11:52 AM PDT

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