Halo: Reach Forum
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Subject: Bungie, PLEASE cater to your hardcore crowd!

Didact's Reprisal -
Now is the time of our unworlding
One final effort is all that remains
And I am not afraid
We shall fulfill our promise
We fight for the grace of the Mantle
And this time none of you will be left behind

Please don't consider this as trolling/flaming, or whatever category of dum-dum-ness you may mistake it for.

But what you've asked for is for good gamers to be able to win easier. If one person can dominate a game, that pretty much nullifies the ideas of teams and strategy. I'd imagine that people who are looking for a challenge..would look for a challenge. Allow "easier" weapons (by your definition) in there that don't quite require as much skill, and games become tougher. With strategy and teamwork, new people can at least hold their own against veteran members.

  • 08.17.2009 11:53 AM PDT

Character Artist -- Electronic Arts

Posted by: frogpjb
Posted by: HC Kat
1. You obviously have some confusion with how the bullets work over XbL. 3 bullets does indeed = 3 packets. No sometimes, not always, one of those packets gets dropped. This does not mean that your next BR shot shoots one bullet... this means that your next BR shot shoots 3 with the possibility of 2-3 actually being sent to the host. Your bullets are not reloaded during steady BR fire; they are reloaded RIGHT before you reload. Your BR always shoots 3 bullets and always registers at least 2 of those.

2. There is no difference between the XbL BR and the LAN BR in Halo 3 aside from bullet registration and a slight increase in accuracy. This, of course, being unless you're constantly in yellow bar... LAN BR == Host BR. Get a better connection, pull host more.

3. If it takes you 7 shots to kill someone, the problem is not the game, it is your aim. MLG playlist has a 110% damage which basically plays like LAN. If you don't 4shot in MLG, fix your aim. It takes 11/12 BR bullets to get a kill in Halo 3 (12 bullets = 4 shot). Even in a worst case scenario where 1 bullet from each shot is dropped, at 2 bullets per shot you'll need 6 to kill. You should be averaging 5-6 shots (in non MLG playlists) to get a kill. There's no excuse not to.

1. If what you say is true, that how do I end up with 1 BR bullet left in the clip?. Double network packing?

2. There's no difference in the mechanics of the XBL BR and LAN BR. The difference, as you have stated, is connection. However, even in green bar, you'll drop packets. If the only way to get a decent connection online is to be host constantly, then obviously the networking system is flawed.

3. There are a lot of reason other than bad aim for taking 7 shots to kill someone. The first and foremost is lag. At distances other than close range, if I'm not host, with even just a little lag the place where it looks like I'm shooting could be very different that what the host says it is. I can be shooting someone perfectly in the head on my screen while in reality the host says I'm shooting the wall next to the guy. And of course you've talked about networking packing. In short, even if on my screen I'm not missing a shot, tiny amounts of lag and network packing can easily create an environment where it takes more than 5 shots to kill someone in regular matchmaking OR MLG.

Hey I am back again.
I am certain you can interrupt a burst from the BR with a melee.
You could also end up with a clip that was not fully reloaded.

I am not denying that Packets are not lost. Its just not as dramatic as you would portray them as. At least not for me and the people I know who play constantly.

But hey, you are going on trumping up your "Expertise" on Networking. Which is completely off topic of the thread.
It does not matter how the mechanics work. They are solid. Its fair to everyone, except in some cases where a host may suck.

If I recall, the BR burst is a single packet with a predetermined seed that tells which of the 3 bullets land. The Shotgun uses a distance check to determine damage, where as in Halo 2 it was each pellet clump. And thats why it sucked back then.

Bungie has made a lot of optimizations and tweaks to make the perception of bullets landing feel correct for a client as well as a host. Its not perfect, but it does a great job at keeping the bandwidth demands well within reason.

[Edited on 08.17.2009 11:57 AM PDT]

  • 08.17.2009 11:56 AM PDT

Alt+F4=secret weapon in Halo PC!

Posted by: SS_Crow
If I recall, the BR burst is a single packet with a predetermined seed that tells which of the 3 bullets land. The Shotgun uses a distance check to determine damage, where as in Halo 2 it was each pellet clump. And thats why it sucked back then.

Each BR bullet is one packet.

It does not matter how the mechanics work. They are solid. Its fair to everyone, except in some cases where a host may suck.
Really? The mechanics may work for you, but that doesn't mean they work for everyone. If everyone was on LAN properly, than yeah, there wouldn't be any problems. However, not everyone has a T1 line, and if having a standard connection that 90% of America has means you're screwed in Matchmaking that obviously a better networking system should be created.

Also, You're right, networking is off topic. Explaining my reasons for my argument is always off topic. From now on I'll just make assertions based off nothing and hope everyone believes them.

[Edited on 08.17.2009 12:05 PM PDT]

  • 08.17.2009 11:58 AM PDT

Posted by: Duardo
I'd love to be a 10 year old and tell my mom I'm going on an adventure out into the world catching Pokemon, with her full support. Never mind the fact that there are rapists, criminals, and murders out there, or the fact that I may get killed by a Pokemon.

Luckily I have Pikachu.

Posted by: MLG Cheehwawa
You can either make the game more random/noob-friendly (Halo 2/3) and cater to the Casual majority.... or you can make the game more consistent/skill-based (Halo 1) and cater to both the Casual majority AND the Hardcore minority.

'HOW IS THIS?' you ask?

If the game is harder to master, the ranking system would work. Bad players against bad players, Average against average, Good against good, Great against great. The game is harder to master, but the bad player won't even know.

He will be having just as much fun as he is now... because, though he sucks at aiming, the person on the other end of his reticle is just as bad at strafing and shooting back.
Also let me just point out to those who may think we want the game to be more difficult, no, thats not what we want. What we want is just less randomness and more consistency in the game.

  • 08.17.2009 12:03 PM PDT

Character Artist -- Electronic Arts

Posted by: frogpjb
Posted by: SS_Crow
If I recall, the BR burst is a single packet with a predetermined seed that tells which of the 3 bullets land. The Shotgun uses a distance check to determine damage, where as in Halo 2 it was each pellet clump. And thats why it sucked back then.

Each BR bullet is one packet.

You're right, networking is off topic. Explaining my reasons for my argument is always off topic. From now on I'll just make assertions based off nothing and hope everyone believes them.

You are not making any assertions.
You are totally off topic, and the issue of networking mechanics has NOTHING to do with catering to the Hardcore audience.

  • 08.17.2009 12:04 PM PDT

This account was destroyed by data corruption. My other account is Ylthorin.

If you want to have fun when playing games, relaxing and other stuff like that, feel free to drop by and join The Gaming Knights.

Posted by: frogpjb
Posted by: Zuka Zammane
All sarcasm aside, I do not view that games should be made for a hardcore crowd at all. Games are there to have fun, not for winning. I feel as if people have lost their way and forgotten what a game is all about.

Both the BR and the AR are overpowered in their own ways, and we do not need to bring up another ranting thread about either. So shall we get back to the actual discussion about "catering" to the hardcore crowd?

I didn't mean for this thread to become a BR rant thread. I simply was trying to put out there that Reach needs to have an aspect of competitiveness to it that Halo 3 really has started to lose.

Second, while I wholeheartedly agree that there should always be a side of Halo where you can just go in and ride around on Mongooses for fun (it's called Social) part of the enjoyment of the game to many such as myself is increasing your knowledge and abilities of the game. The beauty of Halo is that you can have both. However, if Bungie continues to reduce the effectiveness of weapons in the game to the point where the best player in the world can be beaten by the newest player to the game, then there won't be a competitive aspect to the game.
Meh. I understand how it would be frustrating to lose to a new guy in say...a fighting game where he randomly mashes buttons, or in a shooter where he keeps camping with the sniper and camo, but winning all the time gets boring.

I've kinda adopted a Blood Knight mentality towards games that way. Can't say I restrict myself for the start of a fight though, but that my happen if I get bored.

  • 08.17.2009 12:22 PM PDT
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Let's sum up the three major revalations this thread has garnered about the "hardcore complaints," shall we?

a) The internet isn't perfect, and makes boyos think they're more awesome than they are or vice versa. This sucks, but I doubt the internet will be perfect equally for everyone by the time Reach releases.

b) Most of those who complain about how the Halo 3 BR isn't good enough or the Halo 1 pistol are disappointed they can't dominate everyone in a match personally even though Halo has always been a team game. Their headshot contests with other players are also often interrupted by the necessity to change tactics, much to their chagrin.

c) Somehow it's possible to know exactly what's happening in your 360, your opponent's 360, the host's 360, and all the intertwining networks spanning thousands of miles, to rightfully claim that other guy isn't as good as you are.

Catering to the "hardcore." How trite.

  • 08.17.2009 12:43 PM PDT

Personally, I believe Halo gameplay/skill is about being able to adapt to any environment. Few other games have such diverse weapondry and customization. I'm not saying MLG is bad, in fact i like it quite a bit. However, Bungie should be focusing on diversity and customization, instead of trying to make a PERFECTLY balanced weapon set.

Make it so the weapons are balanced, but don't go overboard and make it so weapon x always beats weapon y in situation z.

  • 08.17.2009 12:53 PM PDT

bungie jumper lol

Posted by: BJISADIRTYJAP
How about have all weapons require skill to shine


that is a good point every weapon requires time to master BR isnt there master
ANOTHER WEAPON ALREADY

  • 08.17.2009 12:56 PM PDT

-no excuses, play like a champion
-Never Give Up

Im sorry but seriously i gaurantee the people in this thread that say it doesnt take "skill" to 4 shot someone and that the BR is an "overpowered weapon" cannot use the weapon. You learn how to use the weapon they give you, that is my thought. But to say its overpowered when a legit level 10 could kill you with an AR even when your a high rank and your "skill" is better than others. and idk why you went with the plasma pistol comment.. that was just a tad retarted.

AND FOR THE RECORD:
Please bungie make dedicated servers, that is all i ask for out of the game. Id rather get my ass kicked in a match every game than have a laggy game. which has been more than usual lately?

  • 08.17.2009 2:31 PM PDT

Alt+F4=secret weapon in Halo PC!

Posted by: SS_Crow
You are not making any assertions.
You are totally off topic, and the issue of networking mechanics has NOTHING to do with catering to the Hardcore audience.

You notice that in my opening thread I noted that one of my other complaints with Halo 3 was it's networking. The thread has expanded beyond it's original parameters. Using "off topic" is not an excuse for ignoring a legitimate argument.

By the way, anyone who HONESTLY thinks that Halo 3s networking doesn't need to be improved on is either uneducated about the matter or just disagreeing with me for the sake of disagreeing. Halo 3s networking system is by no means perfect (Bungie has said this themselves) and can be improved on.

  • 08.17.2009 2:32 PM PDT

Alt+F4=secret weapon in Halo PC!

Posted by: Pocket Syndrome
Make it so the weapons are balanced, but don't go overboard and make it so weapon x always beats weapon y in situation z.

This is a good point. An excellent example of this is the medium distance relationship between the Sniper and the BR. The BR normally wins in a close to medium range battle with a sniper, but a proficient sniper has options such as the quick scope and the no scope to contest the BR user. At the same time, the BR user can develop his strafe to make himself harder to no scope. This arms race of sorts is one of the things that I think makes Halo so enjoyable and is the mark of a well balanced weapon set.

  • 08.17.2009 2:36 PM PDT
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Posted by: The BS Police
Posted by: MLG Cheehwawa
You can either make the game more random/noob-friendly (Halo 2/3) and cater to the Casual majority.... or you can make the game more consistent/skill-based (Halo 1) and cater to both the Casual majority AND the Hardcore minority.

'HOW IS THIS?' you ask?

If the game is harder to master, the ranking system would work. Bad players against bad players, Average against average, Good against good, Great against great. The game is harder to master, but the bad player won't even know.

He will be having just as much fun as he is now... because, though he sucks at aiming, the person on the other end of his reticle is just as bad at strafing and shooting back.
Also let me just point out to those who may think we want the game to be more difficult, no, thats not what we want. What we want is just less randomness and more consistency in the game.

  • 08.17.2009 2:49 PM PDT
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  • Veteran Legendary Member

Posted by: frogpjb
Posted by: SS_Crow
You are not making any assertions.
You are totally off topic, and the issue of networking mechanics has NOTHING to do with catering to the Hardcore audience.

You notice that in my opening thread I noted that one of my other complaints with Halo 3 was it's networking. The thread has expanded beyond it's original parameters. Using "off topic" is not an excuse for ignoring a legitimate argument.

By the way, anyone who HONESTLY thinks that Halo 3s networking doesn't need to be improved on is either uneducated about the matter or just disagreeing with me for the sake of disagreeing. Halo 3s networking system is by no means perfect (Bungie has said this themselves) and can be improved on.
Well I'm fine with it. Maybe I'm just not as prone to complaining as you.

  • 08.17.2009 2:59 PM PDT

Posted by; A random forum poster
Posted by; ghostvirus
This apple is brown, and rotten. This orange on the other hand, is in relatively average shape. So the orange is definitely the preferable option.
----------You can't compare apples and oranges. You're so dumb.

I hope your not infering, that Halo 3 isn't accessible or enjoyable from a competitive standpoint.
The game already rewards skill plenty. The MM system just ensures your typically not playing with people your going to dominate. Even in social games. I don't mean to brag, but I typically do atleast +20 a few times a night. There are so many videos that exist out there, of people going +30, getting perfections, just absolutely dominating. That never really happed in Halo 2, and I can't think of another game where thats feasible.

Don't get me wrong, im not saying the game can't see improvements. Im just stating my piece, that Halo 3 does infact cater to both hardcore and casual gamers quite well.

I don't feel like Bungie "crippled" anything in Halo 3. I can't think of one weapon, or vehicle thats crippled in Halo 3. Every weapon, has a purpose IMO. People tend to play with some weapons (and vehicles), like they handle like they did in earlier games, or like they are other more commonly used weapons. Thats the problem. I mean what was nerfed to make the game more accessible for noobs.? Because every so called, "nerf" that exists clearly makes things be more about personal performance. And less about, I have power weapon, my reticule is facing you before you have a chance to kill me, now your dead. Beyond that, the Br is a four shot weapon.

Beyond that, I agree anything they can do to tighten up the networking is well welcomed. I tend to enjoy BTB, and Squad battle more than anything else. And latency exists in the playlist close to 24, 7. Even in games where everyone has green connections, there is noticeable lag that exists.



--------------------------------------------


Posted by: The BS Police
Posted by: MLG Cheehwawa
You can either make the game more random/noob-friendly (Halo 2/3) and cater to the Casual majority.... or you can make the game more consistent/skill-based (Halo 1) and cater to both the Casual majority AND the Hardcore minority.

'HOW IS THIS?' you ask?

If the game is harder to master, the ranking system would work. Bad players against bad players, Average against average, Good against good, Great against great. The game is harder to master, but the bad player won't even know.

He will be having just as much fun as he is now... because, though he sucks at aiming, the person on the other end of his reticle is just as bad at strafing and shooting back.
Also let me just point out to those who may think we want the game to be more difficult, no, thats not what we want. What we want is just less randomness and more consistency in the game.


No what you want, is for the game to be less dynamic. To be the exact opposite, of what everyone else, wants the game to be. The game isn't, "inconsistent", the weapons are all consistent actually. The only thing inconsistent, are the circumstances your placed in with those consistent weapons. There are so many variables, that you (personally) are incapable of predicting everything that could possibly happen. That doesn't make the game take less skill, quite the oppsoite actually.

. Nothing is "random". Games are programmed, something programed being random is an oxymoron. Saying Halo is random, is bottom line one of the most ignorant, fundamentally foolish complaints you could levy. In some situations, you can create something that looks random, but it never is random. Halo certainly isn't random. .

Then the discussion leads to auto-aim, bullet mangetism, and melee lunge. These three components are vital, for online games to work. There isn't a single, even remotely decent online game that lacks these three components on consoles. It doesn't matter weither or not your on a dedicated server, or your all green bar. Latency exists in the game. And these are all nessary for the game to work. They aren't in there, to piss hardcore gamers off. They are there, so people aren't fustrated, yelling "OMG I -blam!- shot that guy with a sniper, and he didn't die". Because the guy was actually 2 feet to the left, and a foot off the ground. One could argue, they took too much auto aim out of Halo 3 (compared to Halo 2). In any event, these things are hear to stay. They might be tweaked, but they are NOT being done away with.

[Edited on 08.17.2009 3:30 PM PDT]

  • 08.17.2009 3:00 PM PDT

Second acct: RC Zerg Rushes

Posted by: frogpjb
Posted by: LoneStaruner
Sorry your "Hardcore" crowd isn't that hardcore. The Hardcore crowd is the fans of the Original Halo game the Pistol 3 shot kill, NO AUTOAIM, made it a lot harder to play. Instead they dumbed down Halo a lot since then

First of all, Halo 1 had more auto aim that Halo 3 or Halo 2 does.
Second, you're just reinforcing my point. Halo 3 has been dumbed down since Halo 1 and Halo 2, (button glitches anyone) and that's exactly what I'm trying to tell Bungie to fix in Reach.


Actually, Halo 1 had no auto-aim, at least on the Xbox, due to the fact that it had no XBL connectivity. Therefore, everything happened Local or LAN, aka real-time, so there was no need for hit-scan, auto-aim or giant hitboxes.

  • 08.17.2009 3:05 PM PDT
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Posted by: The 13th Arbiter
Posted by: frogpjb
Posted by: LoneStaruner
Sorry your "Hardcore" crowd isn't that hardcore. The Hardcore crowd is the fans of the Original Halo game the Pistol 3 shot kill, NO AUTOAIM, made it a lot harder to play. Instead they dumbed down Halo a lot since then

First of all, Halo 1 had more auto aim that Halo 3 or Halo 2 does.
Second, you're just reinforcing my point. Halo 3 has been dumbed down since Halo 1 and Halo 2, (button glitches anyone) and that's exactly what I'm trying to tell Bungie to fix in Reach.


Actually, Halo 1 had no auto-aim, at least on the Xbox, due to the fact that it had no XBL connectivity. Therefore, everything happened Local or LAN, aka real-time, so there was no need for hit-scan, auto-aim or giant hitboxes.
Halo 1 did in fact have auto aim, or reticule magnetism or whatever it's called. What it didn't have was bullet magnetism, or at least, it had so little that it wasn't noticeable.

  • 08.17.2009 3:07 PM PDT

Second acct: RC Zerg Rushes

Posted by: AK 47625714
Posted by: The 13th Arbiter
Posted by: frogpjb
Posted by: LoneStaruner
Sorry your "Hardcore" crowd isn't that hardcore. The Hardcore crowd is the fans of the Original Halo game the Pistol 3 shot kill, NO AUTOAIM, made it a lot harder to play. Instead they dumbed down Halo a lot since then

First of all, Halo 1 had more auto aim that Halo 3 or Halo 2 does.
Second, you're just reinforcing my point. Halo 3 has been dumbed down since Halo 1 and Halo 2, (button glitches anyone) and that's exactly what I'm trying to tell Bungie to fix in Reach.


Actually, Halo 1 had no auto-aim, at least on the Xbox, due to the fact that it had no XBL connectivity. Therefore, everything happened Local or LAN, aka real-time, so there was no need for hit-scan, auto-aim or giant hitboxes.
Halo 1 did in fact have auto aim, or reticule magnetism or whatever it's called. What it didn't have was bullet magnetism, or at least, it had so little that it wasn't noticeable.


*Facepalm*

My bad. I meant to say minimal auto-aim and no bullet-magnetism. Thanks for the catch.

  • 08.17.2009 3:25 PM PDT

Second acct: RC Zerg Rushes

Also, Bungie doesn't need to cater to the hardcore crowd.

They simply need to make a game that's a) actually balanced and b) doesn't have piss-poor network coding.

Halo 1 was not "catered to the hardcore crowd" yet both hardcore and casual games enjoyed it immensly. Weapon skill gaps need to be re-implemented.

  • 08.17.2009 3:34 PM PDT

Second acct: RC Zerg Rushes

Posted by: The BS Police
Posted by: MLG Cheehwawa
You can either make the game more random/noob-friendly (Halo 2/3) and cater to the Casual majority.... or you can make the game more consistent/skill-based (Halo 1) and cater to both the Casual majority AND the Hardcore minority.

'HOW IS THIS?' you ask?

If the game is harder to master, the ranking system would work. Bad players against bad players, Average against average, Good against good, Great against great. The game is harder to master, but the bad player won't even know.

He will be having just as much fun as he is now... because, though he sucks at aiming, the person on the other end of his reticle is just as bad at strafing and shooting back.
Also let me just point out to those who may think we want the game to be more difficult, no, thats not what we want. What we want is just less randomness and more consistency in the game.



Bingo.

  • 08.17.2009 3:36 PM PDT

Alt+F4=secret weapon in Halo PC!

Posted by: The 13th Arbiter
Also, Bungie doesn't need to cater to the hardcore crowd.

They simply need to make a game that's a) actually balanced and b) doesn't have piss-poor network coding.

Halo 1 was not "catered to the hardcore crowd" yet both hardcore and casual games enjoyed it immensly. Weapon skill gaps need to be re-implemented.

This is really what I'm trying to get at. You're completely on target here.

  • 08.17.2009 3:38 PM PDT

Blackness Confirmed. You've got soul.


The Ultimate Opinion.

I love how i post once, being the first poster, and then i come back 10 minutes later and it's already a flame war hot topic.

This is why BR threads fail so much...

  • 08.17.2009 3:39 PM PDT

Posted by:ScubaToaster
Posted by: HipiO7
This man, this man right here put it so eloquently that I actually cancelled my own 2000+ word long post.
/slow clap for respect


:)
The person who said participating is important, not winning, obviously never won anything.

Posted by: RStuck3
Flame ON

The battle rifle is the most over powered weapon in video game history

Flame OFF


Even more tehn teh Halo CE pistol?

  • 08.17.2009 3:45 PM PDT
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My old account is R1BS

Posted by: RStuck3
Flame ON

The battle rifle is the most over powered weapon in video game history

Flame OFF

*cough* Gears of War 1 Shotgun *cough*

  • 08.17.2009 3:56 PM PDT
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Posted by: Sp4rt4n119
Thank you sir, that was an epic rendition of this topic.


Posted by: Xx KNOX xX
and how!

Sounds to me like someone doesn't know how to aim. There is nothing wrong with Halo 3's networking system if you have a decent connection.

On top of that, the BR isn't as "skillful" as it is overpowered. It is supposed to be effective at medium-long range, instead it is effective at all ranges.

  • 08.17.2009 4:11 PM PDT

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