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  • Subject: Halo as a Christian Allegory
Subject: Halo as a Christian Allegory

Posted by: Enormous Corgi
Posted by: Unanimate Objec
There's no way Nate Hawbaker's favorite hero is Alan Stuart


ALAN IS A BEAUTIFUL MAN!

While people say it can be other things beside Christian, it still doesn't explain how closely related Halo is to the Bible. Sure, there are other similarities to other religions, but Halo hits Christianity right on the nail.

  • 02.26.2012 6:26 PM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

Posted by: RememberSix
I wouldn't be surprised because the New Testament is so ingrained in North American culture and thought that sometimes, even unconsciously, writers make stories that resemble it in many ways.

Actually all of the definite parallels are from the Old Testament, and even then aren't intrinsically Christian. In fact, I would daresay that the only finite parallels between Halo and the biblical accounts are the Flood, the Ark and the naming of Eden. The rest I find personally to be very loose association.

Posted by: Unanimate Objec
While people say it can be other things beside Christian, it still doesn't explain how closely related Halo is to the Bible. Sure, there are other similarities to other religions, but Halo hits Christianity right on the nail.

/serious face
Yeah, and it also hits Greek and Norse mythology "on the head" about as accurately. This is our point. Not to say "No, it means this," but to say "It's not exclusively Christian because of this." Halo by itself is not "close to the bible." It makes several references to "biblical events" using "language recognized by humanity." Truth be told, the flood story is shared by multiple cultures, including the Greeks. But how many people would understand if Installation 00 was named "Apsu" or something of the like? If the Flood were named "Haava"? How many would understand if the Librarian's garden was named "Dilmun?" Not to mention that given all accounts, the Librarian's garden could not possibly be the biblical Garden of Eden. Eden resided between the Tigris and the Euphrates in the Middle East (its original title being Gan-Eden,) and the Librarian's garden is way south in Kenya, beneath Mount Kilimanjaro.

For you Christians, it's as close as you make it, and to be frank some of the associations are very... reaching. Still, do with it as you will for your own interests. I would just rather not see the Pagan culture that has been included very prominently in this game be slighted like we are so very often.

[Edited on 02.26.2012 10:30 PM PST]

  • 02.26.2012 7:15 PM PDT

Posted by: jack0fhearts
Actually all of the definite parallels are from the Old Testament, and even then aren't intrinsically Christian. In fact, I would daresay that the only finite parallels between Halo and the biblical accounts are the Flood, the Ark and the naming of Eden. The rest I find personally to be very loose association.


All of the definite parallels in Halo? The most significant part of Halo - the story of Master Chief - revolves around the archetype of the savior, which is what Christ is in the Gospels. Even if a direct allusion to the Gospels wasn't intended, it can't be denied that is what Chief is: the savior. Like I said, that particular image of a hero is so deep within western consciousness and the primary reason why is the story of Christ in the New Testament, but of course it has long since transcended religious thought.

Re-imaginations of a story are always going to be "loose" because no respectable writer would simply copy a work like the Gospels and just change the setting. Not to say that Halo is intended to be a "re-imagination" of the Gospels, but if it is it would fit well enough. Obviously this is all just theory and to be taken with a grain of salt. It is easy to look at things that are one way and (incorrectly) interpret them to be another. The "Paul McCartney is dead" theory is one example. However, like I said, the OP raises a few good points.

[Edited on 02.26.2012 11:02 PM PST]

  • 02.26.2012 10:55 PM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

Posted by: RememberSix
All of the definite parallels in Halo? The most significant part of Halo - the story of Master Chief - revolves around the archetype of the savior, which is what Christ is in the Gospels. Even if a direct allusion to the Gospels wasn't intended, it can't be denied that is what Chief is: the savior.


Odd, that a "savior" would require so much assistance. The tactical backing up of an AI, a near constant supply of squad mates, the assistance of other Spartans, etc etc. John-117 is made to be a "savior" in so many people's minds because he's the main character. In actuality, however, as well as in the canon, John-117 is nothing more than an asset who is very skilled likely in part thanks to a Forerunner geas. The most "significant" part of the Halo Universe is the success of the Spartan project as a whole, and their contributions to the War. Not just a single Spartan.
There is nothing supernatural about John-117, there is nothing divine about him. John-117 alone did not defeat the Covenant - in fact they only fractured into smaller more dangerous factions. Nor did John-117 save us from the Flood, he merely postponed a later conflict by destroying the Gravemind.

Not to mention that from a religious perspective, Jesus is not the first "Savior" figure to emerge. Again, this is a parallel only "seen" by Christians, and is not intrinsic to the canon of Halo.

Not to say that Halo is intended to be a "re-imagination" of the Gospels, but if it is it would fit well enough. Obviously this is all just theory and to be taken with a grain of salt.
No, it really would not "fit well," and it's claims like these that I honestly wish would be kept personal.

[Edited on 02.27.2012 1:15 PM PST]

  • 02.27.2012 12:49 AM PDT

Go away Christianity, we don't need you to ruin another great thing!

  • 02.27.2012 1:14 AM PDT

We’re flawed because we want so much more. We’re ruined because we get these things and wish for what we had.

Precursors = God

Forerunners = antediluvian humanity

Humanity = postdiluvian humanity

Covenant = demonic entities

Is how I believe it go's now.
Go away Christianity, we don't need you to ruin another great thing!
I'm an Atheist and I think all the mythological references are great. Whether it be the three Abrahamic mythology's or Norse, which seem to be the two prominent references in Halo lore.

  • 02.27.2012 1:33 AM PDT
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Posted by: Tactical Pancake
"I'd have to say Lockout was the worst"


I'm pretty sure that's heresy, and that it conflicts with the "Code of Manliness" - page 792, section E subsection D paragraph 3.2. I suggest you relay that statement.

OP, was fantastically thought out and given in a nonadamant manner. Non Christians won't be offended by it. Good use of tact.

Your parallels are solid. And if you don't mind I'll throw in my two cents as well. I can't help but see a resemblence between the covenant and the Catholic religion, in particular Roman Catholicism. From the feel of their ritualism to the core of their beliefs there seem to be corrolating themes and patterns. Exe. A unified Europe under the banner of the church waging war to reclaim the "Holy City" could relate to the covenant's efforts to annihilate human "infidels" to gain access to the ark on Earth.

In the midieval ages the church with exclusive rights to read the scriptures led a blind populace, often illiterate and without access to bibles, making the church's interpretations of the scriptures absolute with no one to refute them. The prophets played on the other covenant members' ignorance while the prophets themselves conjured their own interpretations of events and evidences to pursue their own means of exaltation.

If I could go one step further the covenant could epitomize "Religion" as a whole. The definition of religion being "the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith." Religion is dead, relationships with Jesus are alive.


[Edited on 02.28.2012 2:53 PM PST]

  • 02.28.2012 2:48 PM PDT

Epic Monkey!

This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666. (Revelation 13:18 ESV) That's the reference to the devil and the flood is the devil

  • 03.02.2012 4:23 AM PDT
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Ah, it's been a long time since I've discussed religion...

Halo heavily draws elements and themes from Christianity but it is not a Christian allegory. The unity represented in the games is of a different kind than the one in the Bible.

The UNSC and Covie Separatist alliance was shaky; made out of desperation and necessity as both had enemies that sought to destroy them: Truth and Gravemind.

Side by side, we march as one,
Humans and Elites will die,
The Earth will fall if we strike together,
So forth shall all of life.

The Christian unity in the Bible is a development and is not necessarily immediate, and that is potentially what will take place in Halo's future. I think Chief will unite multiple factions against one enemy.

  • 03.02.2012 4:50 AM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

Posted by: MAL J 7936 mj
This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666. (Revelation 13:18 ESV) That's the reference to the devil and the flood is the devil


So the Flood is Roman Emperor Nero? Because that's who the "Antichrist" is.

  • 03.03.2012 12:29 AM PDT
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Posted by: jack0fhearts
Posted by: MAL J 7936 mj
This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666. (Revelation 13:18 ESV) That's the reference to the devil and the flood is the devil


So the Flood is Roman Emperor Nero? Because that's who the "Antichrist" is.
Anti doesn't necessarily mean opposition. The prefix can also mean in place of and that is exactly what the "Antichrist" does, taking the seat in the temple.

The Prophet of Truth is a reference to the devil as he tried to activate the Halo installations in the Forerunner citadel and the devil's "dwelling place" just happens to be a place called Pergamum which is translated as citadel of the gods.

Although do note that a citadel is synonymous with fortress and in the book of Daniel, there is something about "a god of fortresses", which may refer to Forerunners. This could fit in with Precursors not selecting Forerunners for the Mantle. The Forerunners aren't recognized by the true gods and are thus false gods.

The Flood are references to demons:

"High Charity has fallen, become a wretched hive!"

"And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird!"

While at the same time a reference to the supposed worldwide Flood, which fits in with the Mantle and the Precursors judging humanity's worth.

But the Antichrist? At the moment, there is no character referencing the Antichrist.

[Edited on 03.04.2012 4:02 AM PST]

  • 03.04.2012 3:55 AM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

With Nero, I'm refering to the biblical figure of the "Antichrist." The one in Revelations. However the book of Revelations is a coded message to early Christians, not a prophecy of events. It tells of Nero's reign and gives hope to persecuted Christians at the time. 666 means Nero.

As for the rest, I would strongly argue that they are loose correlations at best.

I do not see Truth as a reference to "the devil," and it's becoming a tired running trend to correlate anything negative in the games with "the devil." Before this it was the Gravemind. These figures I strongly feel need to be taken at face value for what they are; they are not references to biblical figures as it just doesn't really work.

And Pergamon (Pergamum,) was a Greek city, not the dwelling place of the devil. Be it noted that biblically "Satan" (Ha-Satan, actually,) is not the devil. This church at Pergamum, however, "needed to repent" because it was a temple to Isis and Serapis. We all know how Chrisitans view the Pagan Gods.

The Citadel/Fortress correlation is, yet again, so loose it's not even worth mentioning. I truly feel that such "references" are reaching very hard.

I do not see the Flood as references to demons, and with that quote we could very well call Mos Eisley a reference to demons, rather than just taking it as it was. High Charity literally became a hive, not metaphorically. It was a Flood hive, and to the Covenant that was a wretched thing. Wretched meaning contemptible or vile. With the lamentations of Babylon, do we then say that every fallen civilization is a dwelling place of demons? This verse is "saying" that Babylon has become an evil civilization that doesn't follow "gods law." While the Flood may be contemptible and we don't agree with their drive, they are not "evil." The Flood, especially in overtaking High Charity, are just doing what they do. I didn't see many complaints in Halo 2 when the Flood was running amok through the streets killing Brutes for us.

Okay, so we have the worldwide flood. Which one? Noah's flood? The flood in the Epic of Gilgamesh? The Greek flood? Native American? I would actually argue that it's a better throwback to the Norse deluge, as it was not waters but the blood of a Giant. And the Flood does bring a lot of bloodshed the galaxy over.

  • 03.04.2012 1:42 PM PDT
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Posted by: jack0fhearts
I do not see Truth as a reference to "the devil," and it's becoming a tired running trend to correlate anything negative in the games with "the devil." Before this it was the Gravemind. These figures I strongly feel need to be taken at face value for what they are; they are not references to biblical figures as it just doesn't really work.
I merely implied it because of his association with the Forerunner citadel. It was the Covenant's last stand.

"My faithful... stand firm..."
"Though our enemies crowd around us, we tread the blessed path! In a moment I will light the rings, and all who believe... shall be saved."

Posted by: jack0fhearts
Be it noted that biblically "Satan" (Ha-Satan, actually,) is not the devil.
Eh? In that case, do elaborate.

Posted by: jack0fhearts
While the Flood may be contemptible and we don't agree with their drive, they are not "evil." The Flood, especially in overtaking High Charity, are just doing what they do.

I didn't see many complaints in Halo 2 when the Flood was running amok through the streets killing Brutes for us.
When did I identify the Flood as evil? I actually sympathize with them and their Gravemind, as they are the tools of the Precursors, nothing more.

I have assembled armies of Flood in Halo 3 just for the tantalizing sensation of being surrounded by such extraordinary beings (obviously, IRL, I would not want that). For example. I would have preferred gurgles but screeching is interesting too.

Another instance of this can be found on The Covenant at Revelation. To get rid of Arbiter, you must get him on Truth's platform and teabag him. To get more bodies, you must kill all but 1 Brute (that 1 Brute should preferably be a Jump Pack Brute) and then trigger the Flood infection forms by going through the door to the third bridge. Then headshot the combat forms.

I have seen Tank Forms utilize an incredible tactic only for it to fall short. You can download it here.

Also, Zealots are far more useful than Flood. On Two Betrayals, I led the bridge Goldie all the way to the end of the level... on Legendary difficulty. I faced multiple Flood combat forms (some of them had rocket launchers) in a Ghost with this Zealot being my only "ally".



Oh and just for the note, I'm a deist.

[Edited on 03.04.2012 6:01 PM PST]

  • 03.04.2012 5:57 PM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

Posted by: Sliding Ghost
"My faithful... stand firm..."
"Though our enemies crowd around us, we tread the blessed path! In a moment I will light the rings, and all who believe... shall be saved."

Truth is exactly what he is; a religious fanatic. If this is a message at all, it's an anti-organized religion message, as we know the full extent of the Covenant's beliefs and how fatally flawed they are. Personally, I see the Covenant as an allegory on the Roman Catholic church, but there's nothing solid saying that's exactly what they are. The Covenant is simply a religiously political conglomerate.

Eh? In that case, do elaborate.
In the biblical sense, satan means simply opposer or adversary. There can be thousands of satans, and they can be anything. When Jesus told one of his apostles "Get behind me, satan," he wasn't calling that apostle the devil, he was merely calling him out on opposing Jesus' will, and told him to get back in line.

In the original text of the old testament, Satan (Ha-Satan, but I will use the capitalized Satan for simplicity,) has never fallen from heaven. He is a member and head of a divine council called the "Sons of God," who are charged with watching the earth and carrying out trials for mankind's faith. Satan was the angel who delivered Abraham's trial and also called off the sacrifice, and Satan is the angel who tested Job. In the passage, Satan is named among the Sons of God because of his importance, and is charged by Yahweh to test, but not kill, Job. He can quite literally do no action outside of Yahweh's command.

In this sense and with this understanding "the Devil," (easiest identified as Lucifer,) is a satan, but is not Satan. Pergamon in the text is not the residing place of Satan or Lucifer, but of "satan," in that the worshipers there of Isis and Serapis "opposed" the "will of god."

When did I identify the Flood as evil? I actually sympathize with them and their Gravemind, as they are the tools of the Precursors, nothing more.
Apologies, I assumed you meant that they were evil in that High Charity fell to a "wretched hive," and in the biblical text Babylon - which became "evil" - was a "hive" as well.

Oh and just for the note, I'm a deist.

That's good to know. I'm a Pagan, myself.

  • 03.04.2012 7:34 PM PDT
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Posted by: jack0fhearts
Truth is exactly what he is; a religious fanatic. If this is a message at all, it's an anti-organized religion message, as we know the full extent of the Covenant's beliefs and how fatally flawed they are. Personally, I see the Covenant as an allegory on the Roman Catholic church, but there's nothing solid saying that's exactly what they are. The Covenant is simply a religiously political conglomerate.
Yeah, I guess the RCC does try to suppress things similarly to the Covenant hierarchy.

Posted by: jack0fhearts
In the biblical sense, satan means simply opposer or adversary. There can be thousands of satans, and they can be anything. When Jesus told one of his apostles "Get behind me, satan," he wasn't calling that apostle the devil, he was merely calling him out on opposing Jesus' will, and told him to get back in line.
Ok.

Posted by: jack0fhearts
In the original text of the old testament, Satan (Ha-Satan, but I will use the capitalized Satan for simplicity,) has never fallen from heaven. He is a member and head of a divine council called the "Sons of God," who are charged with watching the earth and carrying out trials for mankind's faith. Satan was the angel who delivered Abraham's trial and also called off the sacrifice, and Satan is the angel who tested Job. In the passage, Satan is named among the Sons of God because of his importance, and is charged by Yahweh to test, but not kill, Job. He can quite literally do no action outside of Yahweh's command.
Precisely!

Posted by: jack0fhearts
In this sense and with this understanding "the Devil," (easiest identified as Lucifer,) is a satan, but is not Satan. Pergamon in the text is not the residing place of Satan or Lucifer, but of "satan," in that the worshipers there of Isis and Serapis "opposed" the "will of god."
Ah I see. You've done your research!

When I was editing articles on Halopedia, I was just doing some Google searches and comparing Halo quotes, such as "rebel or all your hives will perish" which sounds similar to Luke 13:3, 5 and I noticed the apparent Citadel connection, but I did not know about what was being worshiped at Pergamon. It is odd how some gods are specifically mentioned in the New Testament (i.e. Python in Acts) yet some gods are not (Isis and Seraphis are something I ought to look into).

Or perhaps it just the nature of the book of Revelation that the names were withheld and the gods labelled as Satan.

Posted by: jack0fhearts
Apologies, I assumed you meant that they were evil in that High Charity fell to a "wretched hive," and in the biblical text Babylon - which became "evil" - was a "hive" as well.
Apology accepted. Not at all. There's a reason why I mentioned the worldwide Flood myth. The Flood may have traits of demons (the ones infesting Babylon) but that is not their true purpose.

Posted by: jack0fhearts
That's good to know. I'm a Pagan, myself.
I have some religious tendencies but by no means do I like to enforce my beliefs on others. I like to keep things to myself. I try to avoid the subject of religion whenever possible.

Edit:

In consideration of your contribution, I have edited the section of the article I mentioned. When I was working on the article, I would put similarities here but I would expound on them without doing much research. Never again will I claim a connection without doing research first.

[Edited on 03.04.2012 8:22 PM PST]

  • 03.04.2012 8:00 PM PDT

Nicely Written, just blew my mind. This is entirely plausible!

  • 03.04.2012 10:37 PM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

Posted by: Sliding Ghost
Ah I see. You've done your research!

Indeed I have. 4 years of direct Christian doctrine courses and many years more of both biblical and "mythological" studies.

Isis and Seraphis are something I ought to look into
Do you mean finding information on those deities? PM me, I may be able to help you some, though Egypt isn't my specialty.

In consideration of your contribution, I have edited the section of the article I mentioned. When I was working on the article, I would put similarities here but I would expound on them without doing much research. Never again will I claim a connection without doing research first.
I was wondering if that was you. Honestly, I think that section needs massive amounts of work done with it to clean it up and/or give all parties being referenced fair say, but with the nature of Halo Nation that's a daunting task and some toes are likely to get stepped on.

  • 03.04.2012 10:37 PM PDT
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Posted by: jack0fhearts
Indeed I have. 4 years of direct Christian doctrine courses and many years more of both biblical and "mythological" studies.
Wow! As for me, I'm not so great at history or language, but I have studied context. Regarding the Old Testament at least.

Posted by: jack0fhearts
Do you mean finding information on those deities? PM me, I may be able to help you some, though Egypt isn't my specialty.
The articles on Wikipedia may have been sufficient. For now, I just want to know why "unknown god" is mentioned in the Serapis article. I'm assuming Paul took advantage of this god's unknown nature to attribute the God of the Hebrews to it?

Posted by: jack0fhearts
I was wondering if that was you.

Honestly, I think that section needs massive amounts of work done with it to clean it up and/or give all parties being referenced fair say, but with the nature of Halo Nation that's a daunting task and some toes are likely to get stepped on.
I've done some New Testament study. Having religious parents that is, although they did not impose it but it intrigued me.

Yeah, that's true.

  • 03.05.2012 1:30 AM PDT

I DO have time to bleed...i just dont want to.


im an athiest so yeh...

  • 03.06.2012 8:03 AM PDT

Epic Monkey!

You how demons can get into you and almost control you, but the flood infects you takes your memory and controls you . Getting something here? So the flood could be a reference to a demonic sort of thing.

  • 03.07.2012 4:52 AM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

Yeah, that's a running theory. Problem being to this thread is that demonic possession is not a Christian thing exclusively. That and when a demon "possesses" people, they can generally be exorcised. With the Flood you cannot.

A problem I'm seeing here is that people are seeing references everywhere, and seem to think it's some metaphorical re-write of the biblical myths. This isn't the case. The "References" are running off the assumption that Christianity maintained it's relevance in human culture, and that the creation myths of Hebrew origins were still well remembered. It's not saying "Oh, the Ark was actually Noah's ark, and the Flood was what came instead of water," it's the Forerunner technology utilizing human culture to synthesize words that we will understand.

For Installation 00, there is no word in any human language that readily and exactly equals to what it is, and so the word "Ark" is inserted because the purpose of Installation 00 is similar to the Hebrew myth. For the parasite, "Flood" is used because the organism operates very much like a generic flood. That's the only concrete, direct referencing to Christian mythology that there is. All of the "John-117 bible verses" are speculation, as are very vague references or associations that people of faith will make. Honestly most are as ridiculous as someone like me, for instance, insisting that the Spartan's armor is an actual incarnation of Mjolnir.

  • 03.07.2012 5:19 PM PDT
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Posted by: MAL J 7936 mj
You how demons can get into you and almost control you, but the flood infects you takes your memory and controls you . Getting something here? So the flood could be a reference to a demonic sort of thing.
The Flood kill their host upon intrusion. Major difference there.

  • 03.07.2012 5:47 PM PDT
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I can not agree more with what jack0fhearts is saying.

  • 03.07.2012 6:16 PM PDT

01000001 01101100 01101100 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100010 01100001 01110011 01100101 00100000 01100001 01110010 01100101 00100000 01100010 01100101 01101100 01101111 01101110 01100111 00100000 01110100 01101111 00100000 01110101 01110011

THat's the funny thing about religion. People are going to see what they want to see, where they want to see it. Arguing against that or trying to find "proof" to the contrary is futile. Simply put, most people will believe what they want to regardless of any evidence or stigma against it.

When it comes to this Christian allegory in Halo business, it pretty much breaks down in the same way. If you want to believe it's there, then you will. If you think it's nonsense, then to you, it is. When discussing religion in any capacity, a debate is always a waste of time. We have no facts or science to work with here folks, nobody can "prove" anything. All we have are people and their beliefs.

  • 03.07.2012 6:45 PM PDT