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  • Subject: Project Natal, good or bad?
Subject: Project Natal, good or bad?

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Posted by: P3P5I
Posted by: SweetTRIX
Have you played a racing game on wii that uses the wii racing wheel? It is terrible when you need to make precision changes. Metroid Prime 3 is a fantastic shooter on the wii, but as another guy mentioned that is becuase it uses a controller as an IR pointer, and it works very well. With natal there would be no point of reference (hypothetically of course). Unless they are going to put something in your hands for the camera system to reference, how precise do you think you can be with natal?

Well have to see what happens, but I still believe that something like natal doesn't fit in games that require precision.

Can you elaborate as to what "precision changes" are?
For your other point, your reference point is how you hold your hands. When you hold them up that is your reference point (I guess).


Motion sensitive controllers have a hard time discerning between subtle changes and extreme changes. The result is you may over-steer or under-steer, thus it lacks precision. The same would happen with a shooter. Now if natal was included as a bonus for certain section of the game that would make sense with a motion based gimmick, then that would be one thing. But to utilize it as a primary controller would be a bad move.

As far as point of reference goes, your hands in the position that you "think" they would be for a rifle is not a point of reference. For the Burnout sample, the guy had a "wheel" for the camera to reference. Considering the position of the wrists that a person has when holding a weapon, and the fact that how to hold an "air gun" is going to be left to interpretation of the user, there is no way natal could function accurately that way.

As I mentioned before, the biggest mistake the wii makes is shoe-horning their motion controlls into sections where it makes no sense. There are games that make great use of it (metroid prime 3), but most come off as cheap and gimmicky. This is the biggest risk facing natal. MS and it's devs need to be very careful where they decide to use this, or it will ruin peoples perception of the add-on.

  • 08.30.2009 4:42 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: SweetTRIX
Motion sensitive controllers have a hard time discerning between subtle changes and extreme changes. The result is you may over-steer or under-steer, thus it lacks precision. The same would happen with a shooter. Now if natal was included as a bonus for certain section of the game that would make sense with a motion based gimmick, then that would be one thing. But to utilize it as a primary controller would be a bad move.

As far as point of reference goes, your hands in the position that you "think" they would be for a rifle is not a point of reference. For the Burnout sample, the guy had a "wheel" for the camera to reference. Considering the position of the wrists that a person has when holding a weapon, and the fact that how to hold an "air gun" is going to be left to interpretation of the user, there is no way natal could function accurately that way.

As I mentioned before, the biggest mistake the wii makes is shoe-horning their motion controlls into sections where it makes no sense. There are games that make great use of it (metroid prime 3), but most come off as cheap and gimmicky. This is the biggest risk facing natal. MS and it's devs need to be very careful where they decide to use this, or it will ruin peoples perception of the add-on.

I understand what you're saying. What I don't agree with however, is the precision. In the video of the man using the steering wheel, from what I could see had no latency/lag between the driver's motions and the car. It seemed as though the man was driving like a drunk on the road, but when the creative director took the wheel the car was driving very smooth and I would chalk that up to user skill. I believe the staff working on the project pretty much fixed the subtle to extreme change you talked about (I know it can't be completely solved).

I can't talk to you about specifics, as neither of us knows for sure what's behind this machine, but for others who think MS just whipped this system together as fast as they could to compete with the Wii, here's an excerpt:
Posted by: Bobbie Johnson
Not a great deal is known about its origins, but is seems that the system relies on technology from two pioneering Israeli companies working on depth-sensitive cameras, 3DV Systems and Prime Sense. Those systems involve technology originally developed for use on ballistic missiles that has been reworked to make it more palatable for use in people's homes.

original link. I think they're in good hands.

  • 08.30.2009 5:12 PM PDT

Just like everybody else has said. I bought an Xbox, not a Wii. I sold my Wii to BUY my xbox!

[Edited on 08.30.2009 5:42 PM PDT]

  • 08.30.2009 5:41 PM PDT

I hope you get lupus

when I broke my arm I could still play halo I doubt I could have played with natal it seems like a giant middle finger to the injured, I think that is should be optional all the way through no required usage of natal

  • 08.31.2009 8:52 AM PDT

Yes, really

natal stinky bad-bad

  • 08.31.2009 10:04 AM PDT

"Ah, the ways Halo has effected my life; when I'm on the toilet, I now think of "BOMB PLANTED, BOMB ARMED"

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It's bad. For FPS's.

It would be fun for that 3D brick-breaker game they showcased at E3, but not on Halo.

  • 08.31.2009 10:21 AM PDT

I hunt for the Prophet of Contentment, the San 'Shyumm that murdered my son, and stole his birthright, his Energy Sword. They call our species Heretics. They claim to all that our tongues sting, our words a vile poison that feeds on the unworthy. I have seen the true face of Heresy. The head of a gallant warrior lay on the ground. His neck scorched and blistered, scarred by his own blade. I shall retrieve the weapon, and drive it through that bastard's heart! Punishment for his sins is nigh.

Posted by: SweetTRIX
Posted by: P3P5I
Posted by: SweetTRIX
Have you played a racing game on wii that uses the wii racing wheel? It is terrible when you need to make precision changes. Metroid Prime 3 is a fantastic shooter on the wii, but as another guy mentioned that is becuase it uses a controller as an IR pointer, and it works very well. With natal there would be no point of reference (hypothetically of course). Unless they are going to put something in your hands for the camera system to reference, how precise do you think you can be with natal?

Well have to see what happens, but I still believe that something like natal doesn't fit in games that require precision.


Can you elaborate as to what "precision changes" are?
For your other point, your reference point is how you hold your hands. When you hold them up that is your reference point (I guess).


Motion sensitive controllers have a hard time discerning between subtle changes and extreme changes. The result is you may over-steer or under-steer, thus it lacks precision. The same would happen with a shooter. Now if natal was included as a bonus for certain section of the game that would make sense with a motion based gimmick, then that would be one thing. But to utilize it as a primary controller would be a bad move.

As far as point of reference goes, your hands in the position that you "think" they would be for a rifle is not a point of reference. For the Burnout sample, the guy had a "wheel" for the camera to reference. Considering the position of the wrists that a person has when holding a weapon, and the fact that how to hold an "air gun" is going to be left to interpretation of the user, there is no way natal could function accurately that way.

As I mentioned before, the biggest mistake the wii makes is shoe-horning their motion controlls into sections where it makes no sense. There are games that make great use of it (metroid prime 3), but most come off as cheap and gimmicky. This is the biggest risk facing natal. MS and it's devs need to be very careful where they decide to use this, or it will ruin peoples perception of the add-on.

These arent motion sensitive controllers, it's a Camera that senses in I think 3 different formats, I think that two are color and motion, the third might be heat. Anyway, these 3 formats combine as sort of a fool proof means of making the camera accurate. Like doing math on paper, then on the Calculator.

If the camera is precise enough to know who you are by looking at you, I think it will be sensitive enough for a shooter.

[Edited on 08.31.2009 10:26 AM PDT]

  • 08.31.2009 10:25 AM PDT

"As the rich wage war, it's the poor who die"
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Posted by: privet caboose
Natal should be in Reachs campaign, and that's it.
I highly disagree because i want the classic halo feel not some new -blam!-.

  • 08.31.2009 10:31 AM PDT

Doc: "i'm a pacifist"
Caboose: "your a thing that babies suck on?"
Tucker: "no dude, that's a pedephile"
Church: "tucker, i think he means a pacifier"

Posted by: Fos Tis Krisis
These arent motion sensitive controllers, it's a Camera that senses in I think 3 different formats, I think that two are color and motion, the third might be heat. Anyway, these 3 formats combine as sort of a fool proof means of making the camera accurate. Like doing math on paper, then on the Calculator.

If the camera is precise enough to know who you are by looking at you, I think it will be sensitive enough for a shooter.


Uhh, they are motion sensitive, no matter what visual spectrum it scans, it still needs you to move before it can do anything with your avatar besides render it. It requires motion, thus it's a motion control.

I don't doubt natal as a impletment, I just think it would be a mistake to shove it into an FPS. As i've mentioned, twice now, the technology is impressive, but that doesn't mean it's going to apply to every game format. People need to look at practicality over wishful thinking. It could be made to work if the game came with some one-off weapon for you to hold and aim, but that is going to give some people a very hard time against those that are very accustomed to twitch shooting with dual analog sticks.

It has potential, but not in every format.

To the OP, I agree we cannot debate too intelligently on what the system itself is capable of. However as i've stated a few times already on this board, motion controls don't fit everywhere, no matter how accurate they can make them. It's like trying to force RPG elements into a hardcore FPS game without making any changes to support the new implement. If you build an FPS around something like natal, you would remove a lot of the things that make competitive gamers drift towards FPS games. As I said above everyone is not going to be physically capable of aiming at the same speed and the same level, even if natal is accurate 1:1, I don't see anyone being able to compete with kids with their analog controllers that have been doing this for years. It's impractical.

[Edited on 08.31.2009 12:44 PM PDT]

  • 08.31.2009 12:41 PM PDT
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reach should have both natal and a controller as an option. i believe bungie can make natal amazing with halo. natal has great potential.

i dont know, i could become like the wii contollers for brawl. no one uses them, they all use game cube controllers.

[Edited on 08.31.2009 12:47 PM PDT]

  • 08.31.2009 12:45 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: Fusionstudent
Posted by: privet caboose
Natal should be in Reachs campaign, and that's it.
I highly disagree because i want the classic halo feel not some new -blam!-.


Have you ever heard of the word OPTIONAL?

Please shut up sir. (Sorry to sound like an ass, but seriously.)

  • 08.31.2009 12:49 PM PDT

for ace

Nope, don't like the idea of Natal as a patch for the 360 to milk it until 2020.

  • 08.31.2009 12:51 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: SweetTRIX
If you build an FPS around something like natal, you would remove a lot of the things that make competitive gamers drift towards FPS games.
You don't know that.

As I said above everyone is not going to be physically capable of aiming at the same speed and the same level, even if natal is accurate 1:1 The gun is the great equalizer of man. Most people can't keep up on a skill based level when they play pro MLG players, how is it different?

I don't see anyone being able to compete with kids with their analog controllers that have been doing this for years. It's impractical. You don't know that Natal players will be able to play with analog players, if this is implemented.

  • 08.31.2009 12:52 PM PDT

Ninjabag the tea-pirates!

I don't want to join your group.

Ever heard of Headtracking? This could work for Halo if the Natal was used.
Apart from that it would be useless.

  • 08.31.2009 12:56 PM PDT

Doc: "i'm a pacifist"
Caboose: "your a thing that babies suck on?"
Tucker: "no dude, that's a pedephile"
Church: "tucker, i think he means a pacifier"

Posted by: P3P5I
Posted by: SweetTRIX
If you build an FPS around something like natal, you would remove a lot of the things that make competitive gamers drift towards FPS games.
You don't know that.

As I said above everyone is not going to be physically capable of aiming at the same speed and the same level, even if natal is accurate 1:1 The gun is the great equalizer of man. Most people can't keep up on a skill based level when they play pro MLG players, how is it different?

I don't see anyone being able to compete with kids with their analog controllers that have been doing this for years. It's impractical. You don't know that Natal players will be able to play with analog players, if this is implemented.


First line, considering the outcry of people who do not want to see natal used in things from shooters to racers, i'm pretty sure that is an accurate assumption. But yes it is an assumption. (continued at end of next paragraph).

Second line, it's different because your taking something that has, to this point, required reflex and reaction time, and now making it a matter of physical control and discipline. I don't know if you've ever shot a real weapon, but keeping it level while making quick movement from target to target is no easy feat. This, once again, kills the experience for people who are accustomed to what we have now. Something like this would completely upset the world of competitive gaming, because now there will be no twitch shooting, no trained motions of the thumb, it will all come down to a persons physical ability to wield a mock weapon.

Third line, your joking right? If there was a segregation in the players then that would ruin sales, once again proving that you are not thinking practically. Why punish those who wish to adopt natal by not allowing them to play with the majority of the gamers that own the game? C'mon now man, I realize this is all hypothetical, but you gotta be a little more realistic.

The word is practicality, and there are practical ways that you could incorperate something like natal into all games as on option. But I don't think it would be a good choice to have it as a primary controller for most types of games. Once again, look at the example of the wii, which titles actually make great use of the motion controls available? It's a very small list, and the main reason that the wii has earned the title of "family" console is because more than 85% of it's games are geared towards simple gameplay, and fun for everyone, not just the gamer.

  • 08.31.2009 1:08 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: SweetTRIX
First line, considering the outcry of people who do not want to see natal used in things from shooters to racers, i'm pretty sure that is an accurate assumption. But yes it is an assumption. (continued at end of next paragraph).

Second line, it's different because your taking something that has, to this point, required reflex and reaction time, and now making it a matter of physical control and discipline. I don't know if you've ever shot a real weapon, but keeping it level while making quick movement from target to target is no easy feat. This, once again, kills the experience for people who are accustomed to what we have now. Something like this would completely upset the world of competitive gaming, because now there will be no twitch shooting, no trained motions of the thumb, it will all come down to a persons physical ability to wield a mock weapon.

Third line, your joking right? If there was a segregation in the players then that would ruin sales, once again proving that you are not thinking practically. Why punish those who wish to adopt natal by not allowing them to play with the majority of the gamers that own the game? C'mon now man, I realize this is all hypothetical, but you gotta be a little more realistic.

The word is practicality, and there are practical ways that you could incorperate something like natal into all games as on option. But I don't think it would be a good choice to have it as a primary controller for most types of games. Once again, look at the example of the wii, which titles actually make great use of the motion controls available? It's a very small list, and the main reason that the wii has earned the title of "family" console is because more than 85% of it's games are geared towards simple gameplay, and fun for everyone, not just the gamer.

It all comes down to philosophy. People don't want to use Natal in competitive formats because they are happy with what they have now. It's sort of a "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" train of thought.

I doubt Bungie will make their games perfectly realistic to real life. My assumption will be that (if incorporated) Bungie will just keep the same gun physics as they had before. Not much kickback, barrel climb, etc., but I do see the other part of that argument. True, actual gun experience in real life pays off for Natal, but that's not a bad thing. With Natal, any kid can be as skillful as a Navy Seal (any experienced soldier) in this game. There's no weight in the gun, no actual encumberances, no difference between these two players but their training. That's how it is with controllers too, just on a different level. I consider it revolutionizing the world of competitive gaming.

because now there will be no twitch shooting, no trained motions of the thumb, it will all come down to a persons physical ability to wield a mock weapon.Exactly. You say it's not practical, but I say it is. Who is right? Like I said before, philosophy.

Your third paragraph. How about just make two playlists (exactly the same game types) in MM that separates the Natal's from the controllers. You can alternate between playlists whenever you want, just plug a controller in (or out). See, practicality.

  • 08.31.2009 1:36 PM PDT

I hope you get lupus

Posted by: P3P5I
Posted by: SweetTRIX
First line, considering the outcry of people who do not want to see natal used in things from shooters to racers, i'm pretty sure that is an accurate assumption. But yes it is an assumption. (continued at end of next paragraph).

Second line, it's different because your taking something that has, to this point, required reflex and reaction time, and now making it a matter of physical control and discipline. I don't know if you've ever shot a real weapon, but keeping it level while making quick movement from target to target is no easy feat. This, once again, kills the experience for people who are accustomed to what we have now. Something like this would completely upset the world of competitive gaming, because now there will be no twitch shooting, no trained motions of the thumb, it will all come down to a persons physical ability to wield a mock weapon.

Third line, your joking right? If there was a segregation in the players then that would ruin sales, once again proving that you are not thinking practically. Why punish those who wish to adopt natal by not allowing them to play with the majority of the gamers that own the game? C'mon now man, I realize this is all hypothetical, but you gotta be a little more realistic.

The word is practicality, and there are practical ways that you could incorperate something like natal into all games as on option. But I don't think it would be a good choice to have it as a primary controller for most types of games. Once again, look at the example of the wii, which titles actually make great use of the motion controls available? It's a very small list, and the main reason that the wii has earned the title of "family" console is because more than 85% of it's games are geared towards simple gameplay, and fun for everyone, not just the gamer.

It all comes down to philosophy. People don't want to use Natal in competitive formats because they are happy with what they have now. It's sort of a "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" train of thought.

I doubt Bungie will make their games perfectly realistic to real life. My assumption will be that (if incorporated) Bungie will just keep the same gun physics as they had before. Not much kickback, barrel climb, etc., but I do see the other part of that argument. True, actual gun experience in real life pays off for Natal, but that's not a bad thing. With Natal, any kid can be as skillful as a Navy Seal (any experienced soldier) in this game. There's no weight in the gun, no actual encumberances, no difference between these two players but their training. That's how it is with controllers too, just on a different level. I consider it revolutionizing the world of competitive gaming.

because now there will be no twitch shooting, no trained motions of the thumb, it will all come down to a persons physical ability to wield a mock weapon.Exactly. You say it's not practical, but I say it is. Who is right? Like I said before, philosophy.

Your third paragraph. How about just make two playlists (exactly the same game types) in MM that separates the Natal's from the controllers. You can alternate between playlists whenever you want, just plug a controller in (or out). See, practicality.

In a racing game Natal would work like a dream but what do you have to do in a racing game? turn a wheel and shift gears and use the gas and brakes in Halo 3 you have to shoot switch weapons use grenades use equipment snipe very precisly ( hold your hands up to your face we ALL have a slight shake) melee jump pick up bombs and flags zoom in crouch there are just too many things in a shooter to not have a controler

  • 08.31.2009 2:19 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: Esperlancer_SP
In a racing game Natal would work like a dream but what do you have to do in a racing game? turn a wheel and shift gears and use the gas and brakes in Halo 3 you have to shoot switch weapons use grenades use equipment snipe very precisly ( hold your hands up to your face we ALL have a slight shake) melee jump pick up bombs and flags zoom in crouch there are just too many things in a shooter to not have a controler

Do you want me to figure out a solution to these problems (don't get me wrong, I already have a solution for all this)? I like the fact that you wouldn't be able to keep your crosshairs on the same spot forever.

  • 08.31.2009 2:40 PM PDT
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that would be cool resoling with an elite.

  • 08.31.2009 3:01 PM PDT

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bad for halo ,but nice for other games

  • 08.31.2009 3:05 PM PDT
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Its a good invention but not good enough for Halo it will chnge gameplay, example you cant strafe sitting down

  • 08.31.2009 3:07 PM PDT

Whetever happens, to use project Natal you will need to buy some extra stuff which i really dont want to waste money on. I want to just sit in front of the tv with my controller, Natal should only be used for the head movements of the spartan, so you could be headbanging to music and everyone else will see your spartan doing that in multiplayer

  • 08.31.2009 3:23 PM PDT

If I was in a room with justin Bieber, Bin Laden, Hitler and a gun with two bullets I would Shoot Bieber twice.
Posted by:Albert Einstein
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

i see natal being a good thing because then your gaming skills depends on how good you are....not how fast you can move your thumbs......so with natal lets see whos the pro now MLG.

  • 08.31.2009 3:26 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: RickRoll57
i see natal being a good thing because then your gaming skills depends on how good you are....not how fast you can move your thumbs......so with natal lets see whos the pro now MLG.

lol, the new MLG will be: Navy SEALS, Green Beret, Marines, umm.... You get it.

  • 08.31.2009 4:01 PM PDT

I hope you get lupus

Posted by: P3P5I
Posted by: Esperlancer_SP
In a racing game Natal would work like a dream but what do you have to do in a racing game? turn a wheel and shift gears and use the gas and brakes in Halo 3 you have to shoot switch weapons use grenades use equipment snipe very precisly ( hold your hands up to your face we ALL have a slight shake) melee jump pick up bombs and flags zoom in crouch there are just too many things in a shooter to not have a controler

Do you want me to figure out a solution to these problems (don't get me wrong, I already have a solution for all this)? I like the fact that you wouldn't be able to keep your crosshairs on the same spot forever.

my point about the crosshairs is you are a spartan super soldier that can flip a tank and your telling me they cant hold a gun in the same position?
okay I'll bite what are your solutions?

  • 08.31.2009 4:24 PM PDT