Bungie.net Community
This topic has moved here: Subject: Hey Bungie, delete this one too! Bring George Orwell! Maybe Ray Bra...
  • Subject: Hey Bungie, delete this one too! Bring George Orwell! Maybe Ray Bra...
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • of 4
Subject: Hey Bungie, delete this one too! Bring George Orwell! Maybe Ray Bra...
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Bungie and the community should care why?

  • 06.21.2005 10:34 PM PDT

-Quaere verum.

Got a report? Use the report tool or send a pm.
Chairleg Productions presents: 'Console Wars' and 'Games as Art?' (also on Halo Waypoint).

Posted by: GameJunkieJim
Posted by: aM Inspire
Hey I have an idea. Achronos has spoken already - what do you hope to accomplish by continuing this flame-war? Just let it go. Nothing more will be done.


It should never have been a "flame war".


I think the problem is that most people felt that the original post was rude and had it perhaps been written better in perhaps a nicer, kinder tone, there would have been no problem. (no offence to thread maker)

This thread should have turned out like it has. I remember making one back in my early days asking where my thread had gone. i got about 2 replies answering my question and i was happy.

  • 06.22.2005 9:20 AM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Posted by: Josher 35
Bungie and the community should care why?


Here's one arguement:

When a rule is threatened somewhere, it is most always threatened on a much larger scale than simply the original incident.

  • 06.22.2005 10:10 AM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT


Instead of first trying to post the thread again, you decide that you'd like to play the victim and see where the attention train stops.

The thread was about 7000 characters. I don't really want to type that again, thanks.

But you know what? I think I will retype it to the best of my memory, just so all you bend-over-for-Bungie-The-Noble fanbois have something to look at.

  • 06.22.2005 2:05 PM PDT

Add the email above to your MSN to contact me with emergencies on the forum.

FOR CARNAGE, APPLY WITHIN
Marathon, Myth, and MORE (Under construction)

NO U! A Webcomic.
Mob Of Angry Peasants Chat

Posted by: spambotdotnet
But you know what? I think I will retype it to the best of my memory, just so all you bend-over-for-Bungie-The-Noble fanbois have something to look at.


Now, see that? You could have been a lot more polite about that remark.

I don't think we're pro-Bungie so much as anti-idiot.

  • 06.22.2005 2:26 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

It would be interesting, but don't think anything more will come of it - If you do go through with it, you should pack a flame-proof sheild.

Honestly though - The powers that be have spoken, and I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

  • 06.22.2005 2:31 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Oh, yes, I know. The thing is, I'm not interested in being nice any more. And the B.net members being anti-idiot?! Ha, that's a good one. This site would have about five members if that were true.

Anyway, here's about what the thread looked like.

Yes, kids, another satirical thread. If you can't handle that don't post.

And for my second disclaimer, I point out that I don't actually think having better aim is cheating. And that this thread is not about the BR, the spawns on Coag, camping with the sword, or any of the other examples I might bring up. It is about the superjump and the superjump only. And if you want to try for the implied meaning, it's about Bungie fixing the incredibly broad definition of cheating that causes so much confusion, and maybe for once coming out and saying something concrete. Keep it on topic please.

Anyway, I played this game on Coag once. My team spawned in the middle on the dark-side hill and the other team spawned two at Red and two at Blue. Obviously, they got the snipers for free and killed us in the middle while we tried to shoot back with SMGs. The SMG isn't very good against the sniper at long range, though, so we couldn't really do anything. And while two were spawnkilling us the other two got the rocket launcher and the banshees and mopped up anyone who managed to get past the snipers. We lost, big time. And of course, being the dutiful little boy I am, I left all four of those dirty hackers cheating feedback. After all, they were using something in the game to give themselves an unfair advantage. They spawned by the snipers and we didn't, and everyone knows that having a sniper is a huge advantage when your target is far away and can't shoot back. It wasn't fair that they spawned on the snipers and got them and they had an unfair advantage every time we saw them. Anyone who spawns like this is a cheater and should be banned right away.

But spammy, you say, you could have used strategy to get the weapons instead of milling around like bait!
And I say that it's much easier to shoot down a superjumper on Zanzibar than it is to get the snipers back on a huge open map like Coag.

And this other time I was playing a game on Midship. I came around a corner and I got beat down by the sword guy who was camping in the room. I don't know if he won the game, but when it was over I left that stinky cheating haxor a load of cheating feedback. Come on, he had an unfair advantage! Did I have a sword? No, I had a plasma rifle and the sword is way better. I couldn't have done what he did because I didn't have one; the advantage was only available to him because at the time, he had the sword and there's only one on the map at a time. Now that I think of it, I should have left him like fifty cheating feedbacks, because this guy was the ultimate haxor! Not only did he have a better weapon, but he was using the walls to hide himself! He was using an aspect of the game, the limited line-of-sight, to give himself an unfair advantage that the players he killed couldn't have had! After all, only one sword guy can hide in a corner, and players walking around obviously can't because it's already taken. Furthermore, I bet he was using his motion tracker. Ooh, that guy was a haxor alright. He had a distinct advantage over me because he knew exactly when I would walk through that door! This advantage ws unavailable to me, of course, because he wasn't moving, so it was unfair because I couldn't have had it at that time. I declare anyone who ever has a better weapon, uses the map, or watches the motion tracker to be a filthy cheater and ask that Bungie ban them at once. They ruin this game.


Oh, and another time I was playing a game on Lockout. It was BR-start and this guy and I ran into each other. We started shooting at the same time, but I missed a few shots and he didn't, so he killed me. I made sure to remember his gamertag so that I could leave him cheating feedback after the game. It's cheaters like this that make the game no fun to play. He gave himself an incredible advantage by having better aim. I couldn't have had better aim, so maybe he's just better at the game than I am. That's defnintely an advantage, and one that wasn't available to me at the time. It was certainly unfair, because the only reason he killed me was that he aimed more quickly and more accurately than I did. The advantage wasn't available to me because maybe I don't play as much as he does or maybe I'm just not as good and can't aim as well. I say anyone who four-shots with the Battle Rifle or has better aim than another player is a cheating scumbag and should be permanently banned from XBox Live.


Yes, that was rather ridiculous. That's exactly the point. Bungie's definition of cheating is so vague that just about anything can be called cheating if you phrase it right. And if you decide that the superjump is cheating by that vague definition, then you must consider the above examples cheating as well. The fact that Bungie won't ban for it doesn't mean that it's NOT cheating, but as I've demonstrated, the fact that it fits Bungie's definition doesn't mean it's cheating either. It may be cheap, and those examples are, but it isn't cheating.

And for the record, I neither condone cheating nor use the superjump.

[Edited on 6/22/2005]

  • 06.22.2005 2:59 PM PDT

Add the email above to your MSN to contact me with emergencies on the forum.

FOR CARNAGE, APPLY WITHIN
Marathon, Myth, and MORE (Under construction)

NO U! A Webcomic.
Mob Of Angry Peasants Chat

Well, while it does seem as if you were a little steamed when you wrote it, there isn't anything in there that would have gotten your thread deleted.

You now have to look at the other variables that would have been taken into account.

And just like every other internet community in existence, there are jerks everywhere. But remember the cardinal rule - two wrongs don't make a right. Ignore people when they piss you off. Or Flame you. It's when you retaliate in kind that things escalate, threads get locked, or even deleted.

And when you begin a thread (such as this one) in anger, it almost never turns out right.

The only reason this hasn't truly devolved, is because the people here have honestly tried to see your point of view. Some of us may be a little rough about it, but what do you expect when it's a response to a rant in the first place?

  • 06.22.2005 3:26 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

There's a difference being angry and being satirical. I wasn't angry when I wrote the original. Actually, it was as ridiculous as I could make it because that was the point. The redone version may seem as if I was a little irked, but that was because of the people who blindly defend Bungie, in this htread and elsewhere, and that tone wasn't present in the original.

I did get a few flames, but they were all from people who ignored all the parts where I pointed out that it was satire and took it at face value.I gave them a link to satire at dictionary.com and told them to read the top of the post, or something like that. The next time I checked the the thread it had been deleted.

It wasn't only the deletion of my thread that prompted me to start this one. A while back, a forum member said that he had created a region filter for Halo 2. He started a thread asking if people would use it, and more importantly, whether Bungie would be OK with him releasing it. He said he would do nothing until Bungie gave him a response. He got none; instead, the thread was deleted without warning and (he told me this through PM) Bungie didn't give him a reason. There was almost no flaming and the thread was generally civil except for the XBC fanbois who couldn't understand the difference between a filter and a tunnel and the people trying to pry for information.

It's that kind of thing that makes me distrust Bungie.

[Edited on 6/22/2005]

  • 06.22.2005 3:39 PM PDT

Add the email above to your MSN to contact me with emergencies on the forum.

FOR CARNAGE, APPLY WITHIN
Marathon, Myth, and MORE (Under construction)

NO U! A Webcomic.
Mob Of Angry Peasants Chat

If your friend put that kind of a thread on here, then he's lucky he wasn't sued down to his underpants. Bungie has made it clear that the code in Halo and Halo 2 is protected material. And to make that type of software, you would definitely have to dissassemble the LIVE code.

That kind of thread would definitely have to be deleted.

And you may have missed something in yours.

Believe me, I'm on these forums about 10 hours a day, (It's boring at work) and I've seen a lot of stuff go that wouldn't have stuck around if Bungie was that, what's a good word... creepy.

Don't worry, it's just run of the mill paranoia.

;-)

  • 06.22.2005 4:25 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Exalted Legendary Member

-= Fixer out =-

<Spurious Interrupt- Breach Disabled>
<Further Access Denied>

One also has to take into account that the Ideal Science board system, while being well-scaled to a project as big as these forums, may not always be a reliable architecture. I haven't seen inside the guts of the thing, so I don't know. Is it possible that the server simply dropped a thread? Does a user get a different message from the generic "Forum thread not found" if the thread is deleted? How does one tell the difference between a deleted thread and a lost thread?

If there is no evidence, apart from the lack of the original, that the thread was deleted, perhaps a re-post would be in order. I don't believe there is anything in the forum rules against "reposting a thread that has definitely vanished;" though I'm sure that re-posting a deleted thread topic would be bad news, would reposting a thread that mysteriously disintegrated be considered a "bump?" IANAFL (or a mod), so perhaps someone more experienced with the ways of the Bungie.net forums could weigh in on this suggestion.

So, those who have more experience with thread locking / deletion: What would spambotdotnet expect to see for a deleted thread, and if the thread wasn't deleted, would a re-post be in order?

On the issue of the thread concerning region filters: Sadly, a post on that topic is almost certainly in violation of Zanzibar forum rule 9 (depending on how the guy was implementing his region filter). Bungie isn't likely (IANAL) to sue anyone down to their underpants for coming up with such an idea, but the issue is that Microsoft is very protective of their XBox Live architecture, and Bungie (as an MS developer and studio) must toe that line. The idea itself is nifty, but I can think off the top of my head of two ways it could probably be used to abuse the Live system. On issues like that, I trust both Bungie and Microsoft 100%; I trust them to move to protect the closed nature of the XBox architecture, since they've been very clear about their stance on such issues.

[Edited on 6/22/2005]

  • 06.22.2005 5:01 PM PDT

Add the email above to your MSN to contact me with emergencies on the forum.

FOR CARNAGE, APPLY WITHIN
Marathon, Myth, and MORE (Under construction)

NO U! A Webcomic.
Mob Of Angry Peasants Chat

Well, I can only offer conjecture on tha matter, but if he wasn't blacklisted, then it wasn't his fault the thread was deleted. A few of the mods make it a habit to send PM's to those who have had deleted or locked topics and to those they blacklist detailing why.

Seeing as he wasn't blacklisted, I see no reason why the thread can't be reposted. But I would urge him to take caution in the manner in which he does so, and to monitor the actions of those involved.

And yes, the forum has it's unstable moments as well. It's been known to drop multiple threads when they hit that "threshold" mark (Bottom of one page, top of another -etc...)

  • 06.22.2005 5:35 PM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

Except that the person in question DID get a response, twice. First, Recon responded, generally positive. Then I did, explaining why such a thing is generally against the terms of use, even though the original intentions might be good. I know that thread was moved at least once, but after a day or so, it had fallen off the first two or three pages. It was a good discussion, and I have ideas on how to foster more threads like that to clean some of the crap in these forums out (some of you regulars to the septagon have seen posts by me about this before).

You have to understand that one of the reasons you get such a negative response is because of your own attitude. I'm not implying that mistakes don't get made, or anything stupid like that. But, you can't find a few threads and suddenly you're accusing us of hiding things and how you don't "trust us"? That's somewhat silly. First of all, the sheer volume of these forums make it difficult to track anything at all. Second, things get locked, moved, and deleted all the time, and not always because of the original post.

I think the real question here is why do you suddenly think we're out to get you? If we wanted to silence people we'd ban you, or shut down the board, or something else draconian. Instead, aside from a few taboo topics (religion, politics, illegal stuff, etc.), you can talk about whatever you want. And that's just the public forums. In the group forums, you can talk about whatever you want, pretty much. Not many other user communities offer that kind of freedom.

Seriously, step back, and take in the bigger picture here. We're not perfect, but we're not corporate control freaks.

Posted by: spambotdotnet

It wasn't only the deletion of my thread that prompted me to start this one. A while back, a forum member said that he had created a region filter for Halo 2. He started a thread asking if people would use it, and more importantly, whether Bungie would be OK with him releasing it. He said he would do nothing until Bungie gave him a response. He got none; instead, the thread was deleted without warning and (he told me this through PM) Bungie didn't give him a reason. There was almost no flaming and the thread was generally civil except for the XBC fanbois who couldn't understand the difference between a filter and a tunnel and the people trying to pry for information.

It's that kind of thing that makes me distrust Bungie.

  • 06.22.2005 6:34 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

There was no disassembly required; all the filter did was accept or reject connections based on the IP and ping time. But OK, maybe I didn't know.

Yet another reason I distrust Bungie is my recent blacklisting by disembodiedsoul. The reason I was given was that another account I had at Bungie.net had previously been blacklisted. I have two accounts, and my second one is only there to be linked to my second gamertag. I couldn't get it to link, so I didn't use it. Unless it was blacklisted for being inactive, my second account couldn't have gotten into trouble because as far as I know, I never made any posts with it. And if I did make a few, I'm sure they weren't blacklist worthy.


Not many other user communities offer that kind of freedom.

Every other user community I've ever frequented has had that kind of freedom. It's common courtesy.

I don't think you're out to get me. I just think Bungie doesn't like people who don't share their opinions.

If my thread was moved, I don't see why. It was discussing the use of the superjump in Matchmaking in the Optimatch forum. Even if the mods aren't deleting them, it's still Bungie's fault for using a bad forum system. I realize that it's difficult to find a decent ASP forum, but if you can't find what you want, write your own. Granted that's much easier said than done, but if Gamespy did it Bungie can too. This system lacks the most basic features: search, memberlist, thread watching, which are especially necessary for a huge community where people and threads are difficult to find.

  • 06.22.2005 8:18 PM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Posted by: spambotdotnet
I just think Bungie doesn't like people who don't share their opinions.


Halo theories, Halo 2 rumors, Halo 3 rumors, what this site should do, what the people of this site should do, etc.

You want my opinion? I might get hated by Bungie though, lol.

My opinion is that you're overreacting to something that happens to others all the time (Not just you!). Use that favorites tool (bookmark it) for a thread if it really means that much to you. All you had to say was, "I can't find my thread can someone please help me?". Instead, you accuse Bungie of doing wrong to you.

Another point. You can clearly see that optimatch is a playlist forum. Not a "report cheaters" forum. The Zanzibar forum is for that. Don't believe me, "a post from Sketch".

The bungie webteam is working hard to get your necessary tools on this website. It just takes time.

DisembodiedSoul blacklisted you? I believe you

Were you the only one blacklisted by the Soul? I think not.

You're going to have to understand something. Bad things don't just happen to you. They happen to other people too. Good people, bad people, people with opinions, and those just trying to find some friends that are interested in the same things.

- Josher 35

  • 06.22.2005 9:35 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Exalted Legendary Member

-= Fixer out =-

<Spurious Interrupt- Breach Disabled>
<Further Access Denied>

Posted by: spambotdotnet
Even if the mods aren't deleting them, it's still Bungie's fault for using a bad forum system. I realize that it's difficult to find a decent ASP forum, but if you can't find what you want, write your own. Granted that's much easier said than done, but if Gamespy did it Bungie can too.


Gamespy is in the business of communicating about games; Bungie is in the business of developing games.

Bungie writing their own forum engine, from scratch. Is that before or after they

* Release the 5 new maps
* Remove the Banshee on Ascension
* Win the m-cm game with the modders
* Ban all those cheaters
* Post the Weekly What's Update
* Work on that secret project (hint: the one that isn't Halo 3)
* Finding Ling-Ling's head
* Release "Pimps at Sea?"

Seriously, how big do people think Bungie Studios is? I think you may have Bungie confused with Microsoft itself.

On a more serious note: if you can get your hands on a copy, I recommend "The Mythical Man-Month." It's a good read in general, and it may be helpful for perspective on issues like "Why hasn't Bungie done x yet?"

[Edited on 6/23/2005]

  • 06.23.2005 12:09 AM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Posted by: spambotdotnet
Yet another reason I distrust Bungie is my recent blacklisting by disembodiedsoul.


Take it off the list. The Soul is a rampaging problem; you aren't unique to that

[Edited on 6/23/2005]

  • 06.23.2005 12:51 AM PDT

Posted by: MakaVeli4LIfe1
Posted by: spambotdotnet
Yet another reason I distrust Bungie is my recent blacklisting by disembodiedsoul.


Take it off the list. The Soul is a rampaging problem; you aren't unique to that


What is this "problem" you speak of? Mak is just spiteful...

You're a whore ;) - Maka

[Edited on 6/23/2005 by MakaVeli4LIfe1]

  • 06.23.2005 1:03 AM PDT

There was no disassembly required; all the filter did was accept or reject connections based on the IP and ping time. But OK, maybe I didn't know.
It affects the information transfer between Xbox and Xbox Live.

  • 06.23.2005 1:42 AM PDT

-Quaere verum.

Got a report? Use the report tool or send a pm.
Chairleg Productions presents: 'Console Wars' and 'Games as Art?' (also on Halo Waypoint).

Posted by: spambotdotnet

This system lacks the most basic features: search, memberlist, thread watching, which are especially necessary for a huge community where people and threads are difficult to find.


Look:
* The thread search is comming soon™.
* Everything else has no doubtably be considered already, but as you've pointed out, there are just so many people using this site that with these extra functions, the functions would greatly affect the performance issues on the site. The majority of people would prefer better performance. Otherwise we would just keep getting errors like we did before the recent maintenance.

As for the disembodied soul, as was said before, it randomly affects people. It's not just out to get you. In fact i was once blacklisted by it.

The shere brilliance of Bungie means that if you are blacklisted, your IP is blacklisted. In other words, you can't use another account if your original account is blacklisted. - again, i think this was said before.


[Edited on 6/23/2005]

  • 06.23.2005 2:25 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

I don't see why people complain when their posts get deleted. I myself (to bring this back to me) have only had one or two replies to topics taken away, due to them being slightly abusive. Of course, that was because someone was being equally as abusive back.

Just look at the rules, and if it doesn't fit, except it to be gone!

Too easy.

  • 06.23.2005 5:02 AM PDT

Add the email above to your MSN to contact me with emergencies on the forum.

FOR CARNAGE, APPLY WITHIN
Marathon, Myth, and MORE (Under construction)

NO U! A Webcomic.
Mob Of Angry Peasants Chat

The Soul is not picky, it randomly blacklists a lot of people, but it's usually only for a few days.

Even Maka, as it turned out a few weeks ago!

  • 06.23.2005 7:44 AM PDT

Tom Achronos
Bungie.net Overlord
twitter: http://twitter.com/Achronos

"I have no words that would do justice to the atrocities you commit to the English language, as well as your continued assaults on the concepts of basic literacy and logical reasoning."

The Soul problem is being looked into, although it seems to come in waves, which make it difficult to track.

One additional point - if I really were "scared" of your opinions, don't you think I would have shut this thread down a long time ago?

Look, I don't deny that our forum could be improved. But we have priorities on the web team. That means we focus on stability and performance first, then we add features. Right now, both stability and performance are our focus, and then we move forward on things like search (which are actually in the system already, just disabled until perf testing is done). Being able to find posts means nothing if the forum itself keeps crashing, don' t you think?

In the end, we're only a few people. I am the only full time dev on bungie.net. I get help from others when dealing with the stats system, but the rest of bungie.net is pretty much me. I apologize if I cannot bend to your every whim and expectation, but you should at least know that those expectations, as well as your understanding of what is actually happening around here, are incorrect.

  • 06.23.2005 11:23 AM PDT

It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier, not the lawyer, who has given us the right to a fair trial. And it is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves the flag, whose coffin is draped in the flag that allows the protester to burn the flag.Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC

You make good points and many people agree with you, but the cold hard truth is like the man said we cant do a dam thing about it. They have all the power and our feedback is has important to them has they want it to be. Shore we payed for there game and suffered through the many problems it had, shure we payed for there DLC, but Its there site. They have the power. And im not saying thats a bad thing, some of them work hard. Dont think of me has a bungie fan boy, lord knows i have served time on the black list for stupid reasons.

My advice to you is to join a big active group. There you can post what you want when you want without interferance from mods. Groups are more civil and you will find better cnversation in them.

  • 06.23.2005 11:42 AM PDT
  • gamertag:
  • user homepage:
  • last post: 01.01.0001 12:00 AM PDT

Posted by: Achronos
Look, I don't deny that our forum could be improved. But we have priorities on the web team. That means we focus on stability and performance first, then we add features. Right now, both stability and performance are our focus, and then we move forward on things like search (which are actually in the system already, just disabled until perf testing is done). Being able to find posts means nothing if the forum itself keeps crashing, don' t you think?


It's rather inspiring to hear a dev still speak of the search feature - I thought it might have been forgotten. I'm sure we all know that it would help immensely.

On another note, this thread turned out nicely once there was some time to cool off. Well thought out arguements.

  • 06.23.2005 12:15 PM PDT

  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • of 4