Halo: Reach Forum
This topic has moved here: Subject: I dont understand your logic, people.
  • Subject: I dont understand your logic, people.
Subject: I dont understand your logic, people.

I'm xAssault12x, and I love the Halo Universe. Discussion please!

Posted by: EldritchWarlord

Posted by: Go Vader
Posted by: Plasma3150
Posted by: Go Vader
Posted by: Plasma3150
Elites worried about their positions. The failure on Harvest gave them an excuse to take them outta the front lines. Brutes weren't allowed back until the Great Schism. It wouldn't make sense for them to be on Reach. Do your research.

Um....Mr. Canon Guy? Does it matter? Include the Brutes. Make them more primal and beastly.

Actually, it kind of does. A good portion of the Halo Story would be torn down.

That pretty much happened with Halo Wars already, but it was a damn fine game.


Aside from having Elites and Hunters in the game Halo Wars' adheres to canon completely. And the one thing that it does violate is the remarkably foolish idea in The Fall of Reach that Hunters and Elites were not seen in battle for 27 years of war. Which basically means that the Covenant would have operated completely without heavy infantry, field commanders, and light artillery. After First Strike the novels stop doing idiot stuff like that, I personally consider small details not critical to the plot from the first three novels as highly suspect.


You have got some facts wrong or backwards. Humans know about Elites the whole war. The second alien that MC encounters when he boards a Covenant ship in the first days of the war is an Elite. Humans know about the Elites and the Elites are in every major ground engagement. Elites would never stay in the ships or keep themselves away from battle. Their honor demands that they fight and that they are the first ones into the battle. The hunters are first seen at Cote De' Azur or however it is spelled. That is either the first time they are seen, or it is the first time anyone saw a hunter and lived to tell about it. That was partialy into the war but I'm not sure exactly how far. The only unit in halo wars that doesn't follow cannon is hunters. They still become known well before Reach is attacked. The only species that isn't even in the books Fall of Reach and The Flood are the Brutes and the Drones, and that is because they weren't a part of the Halo Universe until Halo 2. Halo First Strike was written after Halo 2 came out. Bungie had to play with some basic Halo facts in order to work the Brutes into the Halo Universe.

  • 09.05.2009 10:51 PM PDT

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Posted by: xAssault12x
The only species that isn't even in the books Fall of Reach and The Flood are the Brutes and the Drones, and that is because they weren't a part of the Halo Universe until Halo 2. Halo First Strike was written after Halo 2 came out. Bungie had to play with some basic Halo facts in order to work the Brutes into the Halo Universe.


Brutes were part of the Halo Universe before Halo 2. Not in the games, but the books. Contact Harvest for example, has brutes in it.

  • 09.05.2009 11:08 PM PDT

Wherever you roam
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Posted by: xAssault12x
Posted by: EldritchWarlord

Aside from having Elites and Hunters in the game Halo Wars' adheres to canon completely. And the one thing that it does violate is the remarkably foolish idea in The Fall of Reach that Hunters and Elites were not seen in battle for 27 years of war. Which basically means that the Covenant would have operated completely without heavy infantry, field commanders, and light artillery. After First Strike the novels stop doing idiot stuff like that, I personally consider small details not critical to the plot from the first three novels as highly suspect.


You have got some facts wrong or backwards. Humans know about Elites the whole war. The second alien that MC encounters when he boards a Covenant ship in the first days of the war is an Elite. Humans know about the Elites and the Elites are in every major ground engagement. Elites would never stay in the ships or keep themselves away from battle. Their honor demands that they fight and that they are the first ones into the battle. The hunters are first seen at Cote De' Azur or however it is spelled. That is either the first time they are seen, or it is the first time anyone saw a hunter and lived to tell about it. That was partialy into the war but I'm not sure exactly how far. The only unit in halo wars that doesn't follow cannon is hunters. They still become known well before Reach is attacked. The only species that isn't even in the books Fall of Reach and The Flood are the Brutes and the Drones, and that is because they weren't a part of the Halo Universe until Halo 2. Halo First Strike was written after Halo 2 came out. Bungie had to play with some basic Halo facts in order to work the Brutes into the Halo Universe.


That alien Chief saw was a Jackal.
The Battle of Sigma Octanus IV in which Hunters were first seen according to Fall of Reach was in 2552.
It's specifically stated during the Battle of Reach part of the book that Elites are an unfamiliar sight, during the briefing that the Spartans were in just prior to that battle Elites are mentioned as a theoretical commander/pilot species.

The latter two points are facts that I have never ever liked and I agree with you that Elites should have been in the thick of battle. I am overjoyed that Halo Wars retcons those retarded details out of Halo canon.

I would have greatly preferred if First Strike approached introducing Brutes and/or Drones in the much more sensible fashion of "they were always there, you just didn't see any". Since those first unsteady three the novels have moved away from giving such cumbersome details leaving the universe far more open for basically unlimited storytelling which is why I consider any details in the first three novels that isn't critical to the plot to be suspect to invalidation.

[Edited on 09.08.2009 9:41 AM PDT]

  • 09.05.2009 11:10 PM PDT

Doc: "i'm a pacifist"
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Look, here's how I see it, the inclusion of Brutes, while entirely possible since Bungie has quite a bit of leeway on such details, is very improbable. My reason for stating as much is because of the politics surrounding the Brutes at the time that Reach was taken. I'm seeing a lot of misinformation flying around here, and one thing that is being missed is that the Brutes role was not simply that of "small" tasks, but also the tasks that the Elites would recognize as heresy, and departures from the beleif of the Covenant. This is the reason that the prophet heirarchs used them in the capacity that they did, because the Brutes were too foolish to question, whereas the Elites had much greater understanding of the Forerunners, and were not prone to following orders blindly.

All that being said, the destruction of Reach would be a "holy" mission to say the least, considering that it was established as a human stronghold and possibly homeworld from the Covenant POV. Everything available in the books and games make it a pretty safe assumption that a mission like that would not be given to a group that is black-balled such as the Brutes were at this juncture in the Covenant time-line.

Once again, it is all up to Bungie, as they have even gone on record stating that small details can and could be changed for anything in the prequal vein. However a change like this would upset something rather important to the Covenant structure, and while the gamers (people that only play the games) would not really know the difference or have any issue other than those that are gameplay related, the actual fans of the series (who have read the books) will most likely be taken aback by it.

Not to mention from a gameplay standpoint Brutes have always been terrible. We'll have to see how they are in ODST, but that will naturally be different as you are no longer a Spartan. I for one do not want Brutes anywhere in the Reach game, unless there are branches of the game that go off-world, and their prescence could be well explained.

  • 09.05.2009 11:22 PM PDT

I'm xAssault12x, and I love the Halo Universe. Discussion please!

Posted by: ChrisSpurr
Posted by: xAssault12x
The only species that isn't even in the books Fall of Reach and The Flood are the Brutes and the Drones, and that is because they weren't a part of the Halo Universe until Halo 2. Halo First Strike was written after Halo 2 came out. Bungie had to play with some basic Halo facts in order to work the Brutes into the Halo Universe.


Brutes were part of the Halo Universe before Halo 2. Not in the games, but the books. Contact Harvest for example, has brutes in it.


Contact Harvest was written after Halo 2 came out and they decided to add new species to the Covenant. Originaly the species in Halo CE were supposed to be the complete Covenant and nothing else. Brutes were added in for Halo 2 and all books writen after Halo 2 adjusted to fit the Brutes into the Halo Universe. The first two books, however, have no mention of the Brutes because the Brutes were originaly not a part of the Halo Universe.

  • 09.06.2009 12:01 AM PDT

I wish I was still legendary.

I would love brutes in this game, but only as specialised 'shock troopers'. Like, storming a human base. I can't see the prophets being QUITE stupid enough to put them in charge of excavating or retrieving a Forerunner artefact at this point in the war, especially after they screwed up royally on Harvest.

They can fit canonically. Newer Canon ALWAYS overrides older Canon in the Halo universe, we only saw a tiny part of the battle of reach.

  • 09.06.2009 4:59 AM PDT
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KiLo SiErRa 13

your guesstimates are all wrong, human ships cant jump cross galaxy in a few days, it will take a minimum of weeks, covenant ships on the other hand jump heaps faster than human, and also the dreadnought that the chief is on in halo 2 jumps insanely faster than covie ships.
which leads me to my question(how does johnson and miranda make it back to earth with the elites before 117? the dreadnought is so much more advanced than the covie ships.)

  • 09.06.2009 7:11 AM PDT

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August 29 - The Spartans gain Mk V armor.

August 30 - Reach invaded; it falls. Blue Team takes casualties; Chief returns to the PoA with Linda's body. Red Team takes casualties, loses the orbital defense generators. Pillar of Autumn jumps to Halo coordinates.

September 7 - **time dilation** Halo 1 ends here, but since the time dilation caused by the Forerunner crystal affected the PoA and the Spartans on Reach, only 7 days passed in "real time" whereas Halo 1 and the Spartans' combat on Reach lasted, to them, around 23 days. (like the Room of Spirit and Time in DBZ; enter and train within for a year, but in the real world only a day passes).

September 19 - Halo: Combat Evolved begins.

September 22 - Halo: Combat Evolved ends.

September 23//September 7 - The Chief, Johnson, and other survivors link up in the rubble. They steal the Ascendant Justice, a Covenant ship, and return to Reach to try and find Spartan survivors. They escape into Slipspace and evade the Covenant.

October 20 - Halo 2 begins. They jump to Delta Halo. Halo 3: ODST occurs.

November 2 - Regret reaches Delta Halo. Halo missions in Halo 2 begin.

November 3 - Delta Halo missions end. Delta Halo goes into Standby mode when the Index is pulled out. The Shield goes into lockdown mode, and some Spartans are trapped inside. Truth leaves Delta Halo in the Dreadnaught.

November 11 - The Dreadnaught reaches Earth's system.

November 17 - The Dreadnaught enters Earth's atmosphere. Halo 3 begins.

  • 09.06.2009 7:40 AM PDT

here is the timeline http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/2552

  • 09.06.2009 9:02 AM PDT

Posted by: MLG Cheehwawa
August 29 - The Spartans gain Mk V armor.

August 30 - Reach invaded; it falls. Blue Team takes casualties; Chief returns to the PoA with Linda's body. Red Team takes casualties, loses the orbital defense generators. Pillar of Autumn jumps to Halo coordinates.

September 7 - **time dilation** Halo 1 ends here, but since the time dilation caused by the Forerunner crystal affected the PoA and the Spartans on Reach, only 7 days passed in "real time" whereas Halo 1 and the Spartans' combat on Reach lasted, to them, around 23 days. (like the Room of Spirit and Time in DBZ; enter and train within for a year, but in the real world only a day passes).

September 19 - Halo: Combat Evolved begins.

September 22 - Halo: Combat Evolved ends.

September 23//September 7 - The Chief, Johnson, and other survivors link up in the rubble. They steal the Ascendant Justice, a Covenant ship, and return to Reach to try and find Spartan survivors. They escape into Slipspace and evade the Covenant.

October 20 - Halo 2 begins. They jump to Delta Halo. Halo 3: ODST occurs.

November 2 - Regret reaches Delta Halo. Halo missions in Halo 2 begin.

November 3 - Delta Halo missions end. Delta Halo goes into Standby mode when the Index is pulled out. The Shield goes into lockdown mode, and some Spartans are trapped inside. Truth leaves Delta Halo in the Dreadnaught.

November 11 - The Dreadnaught reaches Earth's system.

November 17 - The Dreadnaught enters Earth's atmosphere. Halo 3 begins.


the time dilation happened after halo 1 not before it, never mind I misread it

[Edited on 09.06.2009 9:15 AM PDT]

  • 09.06.2009 9:07 AM PDT

Wherever you roam
so far from home
you'll be safe from peril
life threatening and terrible
if you avoid David Powel
and keep track of your towel.

Posted by: sims3k
your guesstimates are all wrong, human ships cant jump cross galaxy in a few days, it will take a minimum of weeks, covenant ships on the other hand jump heaps faster than human, and also the dreadnought that the chief is on in halo 2 jumps insanely faster than covie ships.
which leads me to my question(how does johnson and miranda make it back to earth with the elites before 117? the dreadnought is so much more advanced than the covie ships.)


Slipstream wake, it's a major plot element in Ghosts of Onyx. When a ship jumps through Slipspace it plows a path through, leaving a wake. If a ship was to jump into Slipspace near where the first ship did and have the same destination the second ship would get caught in the wake of the first and make the journey in the same time as the first (assuming that the first ship is faster and that its wake hasn't dissipated yet).

  • 09.07.2009 7:15 AM PDT

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How about in the books, the fall of reach and the first strike only described sangheili fleets attacking. There is no mention of Brutes on reach. If your one of those people that so desperatly tryto prove it isn't the fall of reach, well then your an idiot and I have nothing to say to you.

  • 09.07.2009 7:25 AM PDT

The events of the Halo trilogy took up around half a year. it started somewhere in fall 2552 and ended on 3 march 2553. (who knows when the endingscene with chief took place?? before or after 3 march 2663?)

  • 09.07.2009 8:02 AM PDT

Beware the smiley face! =D

I dont see why Brutes cant be in it.

I mean I want the Elites to be the main enemy (It would be a scandal if they were not) but it would be cool to see the Brutes too. And in fact it would be good to see if the Brutes and Elites function together well, or need to work solo.

Of course its unlikely they will be, and it wouldnt be surprising. But you never know - they could be there once or twice.

[Edited on 09.07.2009 8:21 AM PDT]

  • 09.07.2009 8:20 AM PDT

Posted by: EldritchWarlord
Let me make somethings very clear.

The idea that there were no Brutes on Reach is nothing more than fanon, an assumption that fills in canonical gaps and may very well be false. The minor detail in The Fall of Reach saying that Elites and Hunters were completely unknown until 2552 has been retconned away by both Halo Wars and The Cole Protocol.

I believe that a similar thing is happening to the minor detail in First Strike that Brutes were almost completely unknown until after the Battle of Reach. It is being retconned to the new canon that Brutes were deployed throughout the war, though the Elites were the heavily favored choice. This is implied by many things: the familiarity Marines have with Brutes in Halo 2 and 3, the existence of Brutes in ODST, and the recently released "We Are ODST" trailer showing a Brute foe on a planet that is very likely not Earth.

I have no problem with this retconning, especially since the details were fairly stupid in my opinion.

Furthermore there's no reason that the Spirit of Fire couldn't make it back to the UNSC in time for the Red Team members aboard to die on Reach. They really don't know about the Flood more than the greater UNSC does, they only knew the Flood as an especially fascinating and dangerous lifeform inhabiting a planet that they blew up.

Brief tangent aside my point is I for one would welcome Brutes in Halo Reach, for both campaign and multiplayer. Variety is the spice of life after all, and encounters with Brutes would add even more to the Covenant arsenal (as well as adding more customization options to multiplayer).

  • 09.07.2009 8:50 PM PDT

I'm xAssault12x, and I love the Halo Universe. Discussion please!

Indeed I fail and UNSC didn't know about Elites until around the time when Reach fell. I just remembered MC fighting an alien with a shield and forgot it was a Jackal. Lol. EPIC Fail!

  • 09.30.2009 5:22 PM PDT
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Everyone assumes one book can tell an entire global catastrophe. There could have been Brutes in an unmentioned part of the attack. Also the Brutes in ODST are so great I don't want to see them go. Why scrap something that was just perfected?

[Edited on 09.30.2009 6:14 PM PDT]

  • 09.30.2009 6:14 PM PDT

I'm xAssault12x, and I love the Halo Universe. Discussion please!

Why scrap them?

Simple...

The Elites were the most awesome enemy we ever got to face. I want to fight Elites again. Screw the Brutes. The Elites RULE!!!

  • 09.30.2009 6:16 PM PDT
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Posted by: xAssault12x
Why scrap them?

Simple...

The Elites were the most awesome enemy we ever got to face. I want to fight Elites again. Screw the Brutes. The Elites RULE!!!


The Halo 2 Elites were garbage, the ODST Brutes were 1000 times better. The Halo CE Elites were amazing enemies though, best enemies ever.

  • 09.30.2009 6:20 PM PDT

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Here is the actual timeline of events in the Halo Trilogy: http://halostory.bungie.org/halostory.timeline.html. But your argument is still just as valid. Just thought I would clear that up.

  • 09.30.2009 7:16 PM PDT

I'm xAssault12x, and I love the Halo Universe. Discussion please!

Posted by: BULLETSP0NGE
Posted by: xAssault12x
Why scrap them?

Simple...

The Elites were the most awesome enemy we ever got to face. I want to fight Elites again. Screw the Brutes. The Elites RULE!!!


The Halo 2 Elites were garbage, the ODST Brutes were 1000 times better. The Halo CE Elites were amazing enemies though, best enemies ever.


Halo CE Elites is what I'm talking about. They were awesome!

Bungie has an opportunity to make the best Halo game ever. There better be a lot of Elites for me to fight. IF I see Brutes then I want it to be an isolated incident. The Elites were the ones who were in charge of Glassed Reach and the Elites hated and didn't trust the Brutes. So why would the Elites use Brutes or even let the Brutes fight alongside them? That doesn't fit with Halo Cannon. The only way that having Brutes in Halo Reach would make sense is if we see them once and they are doing something of zero importance to the overall mission of the Covenant on Reach.

  • 10.02.2009 10:32 PM PDT

Why would you even want brutes in reach, they suck.

  • 10.02.2009 10:46 PM PDT

I'm xAssault12x, and I love the Halo Universe. Discussion please!

I don't want Brute in Reach at all, but if they are going to be in the game then I would prefer that they only appear once and play no important role whatsoever. Having them in the game would make it easy to include Brute weapons and vehicles in the multiplayer, but wouldn't it be easier to just replace Brute weapons and vehicles with new Covenant and UNSC weapons and vehicles? That way we don't have to have a terrible enemy in Halo Reach. It would give Bungie the ability to give us fun new toys to play with instead of the same old stuff we are used to. Besides, Brute weapons and vehhicles aren't that cool and can be easily replaces.

Replace the Brute Shot with a UNSC Grenade Launcher.

Replace the Brute Spiker with a UNSC automatic Crossbow.

Replace the Brute Chopper with a Covenant Recon Vehicle.

Replace the Brute Transport Vehicle with its original concept as a Covenant transport/scout vehicle.

All Done with the same functionality. Just no stupid Brutes. Yay Elites!

  • 10.02.2009 11:03 PM PDT
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I will tell you people why Elites want Brutes on Reach for the fight. These 2 words can say it all. Cannon Fodder!!!

  • 10.02.2009 11:06 PM PDT