Halo: Reach Forum
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Subject: Please Listen to What I Have To Say About Reach...
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[SuSCo]

Posted by: Vexinator
Posted by: NecroFillak
Vexinator, there is no need to turn this into a personal conflict.

Also, MLG will eventually be almost as big or as big as major league sports. It's inevitable. More and more of the last generation of gamers are growing up and becoming adults so the demographic is expanded. Take a look at competitive Starcraft in Korea. Those guys get paid millions. The Korean air force even has a team. Theres no need for "omgz get a lifez itz a gaem". competitive gaming will only grow and people like Susco and even myself are concerned about its future which directly involves the gameplay of Reach.


That is a fair and polite way to state your point. Unfortunately I was not graced with the same politeness from Susco, who made direct assumptions about the manner in which I play Halo. I know competitive tournaments and the such are on the rise, as I stated earlyer I have attended a few myself, and I think that there is nothing wrong with that, within its own limits. Do you not think the exsessive manner in which Starcraft is played in countries like Korea is good for their mental, physical or social health?


I do recall in one post i did say "i tried to say that as politely as possible"...or something like that.

But anyway, I'm done arguing with you because i want the thread to be filled with other peoples opinions, not us arguing. So with that said, I'm done. I could comment on what you said about mental and physical health but i dont want the argument to continue.

[Edited on 09.09.2009 7:29 PM PDT]

  • 09.09.2009 7:28 PM PDT

No offense dude, i'm all for MLG and making Reach a better game, which to me is like Halo 1, but... Don't use "we" in your paragraph. Unless i'm mistaken, i do not think you work for MLG or Gamebattles, and you definitely don't speak for everyone there.

I would let Puckett or Sundance handle this, or the Head of Public Relations over at MLG. Also. It's no worries bro, you remember the article on MLGPro where they stated they acquired a gaming company? That means they'll make more competitive games, and although they won't be Halo's, they should be good.

Oh yea, i forgot my reasoning about that. Just in case you get a bad reception here at B.Net, it would be bad for MLG if you used their name.

But overall a good post i guess. I'm just an avid supporter of getting rid of equipment.

[Edited on 09.09.2009 7:31 PM PDT]

  • 09.09.2009 7:29 PM PDT
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Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey
A real test of a man is if he is willing to scrape a sharpened razor up and down his junk just to please a woman.

Posted by: Vexinator

You obviously have not seen all the flaws I have in Halo 3 if you think Halo 2 has more flaws than Halo 3, although you are correct that there are flaws in Halo 2, theres so many to count in H3 I dont even remember them all off the top off my head and it would take hours to list them.

As a person who has been playing halo ever since its release (Halo:CE) and has a 50 in MLG in Halo 3 and attends MLG events, and even has made a few hundred dollars from this game, I think i know what I am talking about. Please dont question the difference of both games with me. I tried to say that as politely as I could.

I will say you a


I have also played Halo from the start and have attended a few minor tournaments myself but that does not make my opinion any more validated than anyone elses who plays Halo, and the same applies to you. Yes, you know what you are talking about, but only for your own specific wants and needs. If Halo 2 is so much better than Halo 3 then you are more than welcome to stick with Halo 2. Bungie didn't ask you to buy or even play Halo 3 and no one else certainly didn't. I think we will have to just agree to disagree. You are entitled to your own opinion but for future reference do not ever think your opinion is above anybody elses just because you think you are better at a game than them. It is both arrogant and rude, and it is people like you who make the experience of playing Halo that much worse for everybody else who takes Halo for exactly for what it is meant to be. A game. Designed to be fun to play and give relaxation and escapism to a player. If you put as much time into a sport as you did playing MLG then you might actually acomplish something in life.
HEY MOM, THERE'S A RATIONAL PERSON ON THE INTERNET, COME QUICK!!!!

  • 09.09.2009 7:31 PM PDT

I actually read an article about pro Starcraft players, I'm not sure where I found it.

But it basically went through the day in the life of a Starcraft player. There's like 7 or 8 major teams sponsored by Korean corporations ( 1 by the air force). The players do basically make Starcraft into their life, but is this really any different than being a professional athlete in america? Also the article described that part of the routine for teams was to exercise every day (combine that with the generally more healthy asian lifestyle and I think they are OK.) .

As far as social and mental health goes, they are basically celebrities. Girls fawn over them (for real, not just gross anime girls like over here), they get paid tons of money, but they practice ALOT.

I'm sure they make friends within the teams and within the community. I don't really see a big difference between that and a pro sports lifestyle in the US.

  • 09.09.2009 7:32 PM PDT
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Posted by: FFSalt
No offense dude, i'm all for MLG and making Reach a better game, which to me is like Halo 1, but... Don't use "we" in your paragraph. Unless i'm mistaken, i do not think you work for MLG or Gamebattles, and you definitely don't speak for everyone there.

I would let Puckett or Sundance handle this, or the Head of Public Relations over at MLG. Also. It's no worries bro, you remember the article on MLGPro where they stated they acquired a gaming company? That means they'll make more competitive games, and although they won't be Halo's, they should be good.

But overall a good post i guess. I'm just an avid supporter of getting rid of equipment.


I know I'm not a "spokesperson" for MLG or Gamebattles, but I say we because just about everybody at MLGPro shares the same views on competitive gaming and what it takes to make a game competitive as I do. So we all say "we" because we are a Competitive Gaming Community, just like the Bungie Community.

Also, Puckett is nothing but a commentator for the live stream.

The acquisition of Agora Gaming or whatever they are called is not to make a game, they are used to track important stats for gamers online. They are not a game developer.

And yes, equipment is annoying lol.

  • 09.09.2009 7:34 PM PDT
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Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey
A real test of a man is if he is willing to scrape a sharpened razor up and down his junk just to please a woman.

Posted by: SuSCo tK
FYI I have a GF, a lot of friends, and live on the beach in New Jersey, so "having a life" isnt a problem for me, as well as keeping good grades in school.
Does that have anything to do with anything to do with what Vexinator said?

  • 09.09.2009 7:34 PM PDT
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[SuSCo]

Posted by: Sh1n1ng Wolf
Posted by: SuSCo tK
FYI I have a GF, a lot of friends, and live on the beach in New Jersey, so "having a life" isnt a problem for me, as well as keeping good grades in school.
Does that have anything to do with anything to do with what Vexinator said?


Re-read his post, and stop posting in my thread please. You are very ignorant and don't know what you're talking about. You are very annoying. I've actually reported your posts because you are not posting about the topic.

  • 09.09.2009 7:38 PM PDT
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personally i don't like MLG and i hope that bungie keeps equipment i've alwaysed liked it. Bungie also better not make this game just for the MLG crowd

[Edited on 09.09.2009 7:49 PM PDT]

  • 09.09.2009 7:49 PM PDT
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Posted by: theHurtfulTurkey
A real test of a man is if he is willing to scrape a sharpened razor up and down his junk just to please a woman.

Posted by: SuSCo tK
Posted by: Sh1n1ng Wolf
Posted by: SuSCo tK
FYI I have a GF, a lot of friends, and live on the beach in New Jersey, so "having a life" isnt a problem for me, as well as keeping good grades in school.
Does that have anything to do with anything to do with what Vexinator said?


Re-read his post, and stop posting in my thread please.
Thanks for trying, but you don't have any right to tell me not to post on a PUBLIC FORUM. Now someone that actually works for Bungie... Well that's a different situation...

Posted by: SuSCo tK
You are very ignorant and don't know what you're talking about.
Please don't give me the ignorance crap. I guarantee that I'm just as educated about all three Halos as you are (skill wise, probably not lore since I've only read The Fall of Reach), and bringing up your big bad "1'V3 B33N PL@!NG H@L0 S!NC3 !T C@M3 OUT!!!!!" along with you mentioning your rank is 50 doesn't prove anything. You also seem to forget that I was the first person that posted on this thread supporting YOUR ideas.

Posted by: SuSCo tK
You are very annoying.
Thanks

Posted by: SuSCo tK
I've actually reported your posts because you are not posting about the topic.
"FYI I have a GF, a lot of friends, and live on the beach in New Jersey, so "having a life" isnt a problem for me, as well as keeping good grades in school."

  • 09.09.2009 8:16 PM PDT

Do you really care? you can't automatically see my signature anyway.

Posted by: Vexinator
Posted by: SuSCo tK
Posted by: Vexinator
I have no problem with MLG / competitive gamers but it seems the "flaws" with Halo 3 MM you point out in your original post are unfounded. You even identify the reason you're points are flawed and this is it. The internet. Yes, annoying things happen in Halo 3 online, just like Gears 2 seems to lag every other game online, and how some online games just plain don't work at all. It has nothing to do with "Bungie making a better game" what it has to do with is better servers etc so that there is reduced lag. I guarantee you that all the supposed "flaws" that you have found in Halo 3 online do not present themsleves when you play splitscreen offline. To be honest Bungie have done a fantastic job minimising the effects of lag in Halo 3 to those minor hiccups you outlined in your original post considering the tens of thousands of people that play Halo 3 everyday and you only need to look at the online of other games to see that point.


It does have to do with them making a better game, actually. Halo 2 net coding allowed bullet registration more often than in Halo 3. You know your net code is poor when bullets dont register on LAN. And like i said, I'm telling Bungie to stop blaming these things on the internet when they happen offline (LAN) aswell. Please put some thought into your post next time, no offense though.


I put plenty of thought into it thank you. I play LAN with my brothers almost daily and have never expierienced any of the problems you have brought foward. You're moaning about bullet registration being more often in Halo 2 but that was because it was more unrealistic. Have you ever fired a fully or semi automatic weapon like the BR or AR from Halo 3? If you have then you would know that multiple bullets never ever travel along the exact same trajectory, an effect that is succesfully created in Halo 3. And whilst we are on the topic of in-game flaws, Halo 2 had many more than 3. The hit-boxes on the elite skins in Halo 2 were so out of whack you could headshot them in the chest with the sniper rifle. I think that's more of a problem than the rubbish you are spewing.


I've had 2 perfect headshots where this very thing has happened to me. blood and then the guy I didn't bother to shoot at kills me because I'm so pissed the guy behind him didn't die.

I've also had (I'm totally serious about this too) a spike gernade fly straight at an enemy and then bounce off and stick to the wall.

  • 09.09.2009 8:53 PM PDT
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T^_^T

<3, Some of my ideas from the Reach thread on MLG are on there already.

What I want, is just more customizable options...Simply allowing us to customize more of the rules(Fall damage/Health/Damage options for Explosives, Bullets, Energy, and Melee weapons) would make the game perfectly fine for the "core" fanbase, while MLG/Racing/Griffball/etc/etc would be able to grow.

Even fixing the current "options" would work..Who the hell makes options go 100-110-115-125-150.

And damage resistance vs Weapon Damage is a joke..75% then 90%..WTF.

Halo 3 was a huge step up from Halo 2(In the terms of what we can change from the out of the box game). Now, hopefully Reach will be the next step up.

I will never say "MLG Is the skillful thing in Halo"(In my opinion there is a wide range of "skills" in halo..Some easier to master then others..but still) but it is the style of gameplay that we MLG players enjoy, and that should be respected by this community(B.net bashes MLG a lot more the MLG Bashes B.net.).

Also, no more hitscan pl0x.

  • 09.10.2009 2:41 AM PDT

I hunt for the Prophet of Contentment, the San 'Shyumm that murdered my son, and stole his birthright, his Energy Sword. They call our species Heretics. They claim to all that our tongues sting, our words a vile poison that feeds on the unworthy. I have seen the true face of Heresy. The head of a gallant warrior lay on the ground. His neck scorched and blistered, scarred by his own blade. I shall retrieve the weapon, and drive it through that bastard's heart! Punishment for his sins is nigh.

Considering I play LAN really often at a cybercafe and the double reload glitch, and bullet drop NEVER HAPPEN ON IT. And they ONLY HAPPEN ONLINE for me. I really don't think that argument holds Precedence. A LAN has a maximum ping of 8ms on a network with no blockage. And those glitches never happen at 8ms or less.

Other than that, it is a whole different Engine, that means that it isn't about fixing the glitches, it is about the whole new wave of different glitches that WILL be there. It s really unlikely that most glitches in Halo 3 will ever arise in Reach's engine.

[Edited on 09.10.2009 2:53 AM PDT]

  • 09.10.2009 2:52 AM PDT

I would like a more competitive halo but I just don't like the MLG approach (One or two weapons only).

Reach should be more like halo CE where all the weapons required skill to use and had an equal chance to get you some kills. They should expand on equipment (because it made the game more tactical).

And if you really thought you needed skill to play halo 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMSYoPC5vyE&feature=relate d

[Edited on 09.10.2009 4:04 AM PDT]

  • 09.10.2009 4:04 AM PDT
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[SuSCo]

Posted by: iwanneatchips
I would like a more competitive halo but I just don't like the MLG approach (One or two weapons only).

Reach should be more like halo CE where all the weapons required skill to use and had an equal chance to get you some kills. They should expand on equipment (because it made the game more tactical).

And if you really thought you needed skill to play halo 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMSYoPC5vyE&feature=relate d


MLG would use a lot more weapons but the weapons that Bungie designs do not really fit well into competitive play, thats why they are not included, but i understand what you're saying.

I agree with what you said about Reach being more like CE.

  • 09.10.2009 1:08 PM PDT
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[SuSCo]

Posted by: King of March
personally i don't like MLG and i hope that bungie keeps equipment i've alwaysed liked it. Bungie also better not make this game just for the MLG crowd


That would never happen. HR will be made for the general audience of Halo players, so you wont have to worry about it being so competitive.

Us MLG fans just want a ton of customizable options, so when we play custom games and the gametypes go into MLG playlist, its serious, competitive, and fun for us as well.

  • 09.10.2009 1:11 PM PDT
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Add me for a skilled teammate/custom game player, though I'm an FFA guy first and foremost.

GT = N1TZUA

Posted by: iwanneatchips
And if you really thought you needed skill to play halo 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMSYoPC5vyE&feature=relate d

That was the absolute worst commentary I've ever had the displeasure of hearing concerning the Halo series.

  • 09.10.2009 2:12 PM PDT

Its xB01S0NxBARRYx. This is probably the best reach forum I have ever seen! Most other argue about the ending, and others bash the br. I agree completely with this thread

  • 09.10.2009 2:25 PM PDT

Posted by: SuSCo tK
Posted by: Vexinator
I have no problem with MLG / competitive gamers but it seems the "flaws" with Halo 3 MM you point out in your original post are unfounded. You even identify the reason you're points are flawed and this is it. The internet. Yes, annoying things happen in Halo 3 online, just like Gears 2 seems to lag every other game online, and how some online games just plain don't work at all. It has nothing to do with "Bungie making a better game" what it has to do with is better servers etc so that there is reduced lag. I guarantee you that all the supposed "flaws" that you have found in Halo 3 online do not present themsleves when you play splitscreen offline. To be honest Bungie have done a fantastic job minimising the effects of lag in Halo 3 to those minor hiccups you outlined in your original post considering the tens of thousands of people that play Halo 3 everyday and you only need to look at the online of other games to see that point.


It does have to do with them making a better game, actually. Halo 2 net coding allowed bullet registration more often than in Halo 3. You know your net code is poor when bullets dont register on LAN. And like i said, I'm telling Bungie to stop blaming these things on the internet when they happen offline (LAN) aswell. Please put some thought into your post next time, no offense though.


these things DONT happen on LAN. you are a liar and an MLG fanboy. knock it off

  • 09.10.2009 2:34 PM PDT
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[SuSCo]

Posted by: Mister Kutters
Posted by: SuSCo tK
Posted by: Vexinator
I have no problem with MLG / competitive gamers but it seems the "flaws" with Halo 3 MM you point out in your original post are unfounded. You even identify the reason you're points are flawed and this is it. The internet. Yes, annoying things happen in Halo 3 online, just like Gears 2 seems to lag every other game online, and how some online games just plain don't work at all. It has nothing to do with "Bungie making a better game" what it has to do with is better servers etc so that there is reduced lag. I guarantee you that all the supposed "flaws" that you have found in Halo 3 online do not present themsleves when you play splitscreen offline. To be honest Bungie have done a fantastic job minimising the effects of lag in Halo 3 to those minor hiccups you outlined in your original post considering the tens of thousands of people that play Halo 3 everyday and you only need to look at the online of other games to see that point.


It does have to do with them making a better game, actually. Halo 2 net coding allowed bullet registration more often than in Halo 3. You know your net code is poor when bullets dont register on LAN. And like i said, I'm telling Bungie to stop blaming these things on the internet when they happen offline (LAN) aswell. Please put some thought into your post next time, no offense though.


these things DONT happen on LAN. you are a liar and an MLG fanboy. knock it off


Would you like video proof?

Click this

^Page 3, Triggers down vs. Believe The Hype (BtH) Game 7 Pit TS. Start watching at 6:14. Hysteria's sniper shot results in only a bloodshot, and Puckett lets everybody know at about 6:30.

And LAN as in 4 Xboxes hooked to a router in the same room, not 1 xbox splitscreening. With 1 xbox on splitscreens everybody has host (since its just 1 xbox). On LAN, if you didnt know, there are also hosts and clients. So it is very true that bullets dont register on LAN off host, which is sad because everybody is in the same room right next to eachother on the same connection. Thats where Halo 3's terrible net coding comes into play. Online play (for the most part) is why bullets dont reg online and Net coding is why bullets dont reg on LAN (for the most part).

There are way more incidents of this happening captured on video just at MLG's events, but this is just to show you its possible.

BTW, in Amature bracket at Meadowlands, I got reload glitched when i was about to get a kill with the rockets on Pit TS, and it cost me a kill. Not only that, they then had rockets and some kid ended up going on a spree. (We ended up destroying anyway, but I'm just trying to prove that flaws that occur on LAN really affect gameplay, and for those that don't know, the Meadowlands is in NJ and was MLG's first stop of the Pro Circuit in April, so of course i was playing LAN).

And if I'm an MLG Fanboy, you're a Bungie loving, AR addicted, Lone Wolves Fanboy.

You're probably saying wow that was so stupid. Of course it is, and so was what you said about me being an MLG fanboy, so shush.

[Edited on 09.10.2009 3:33 PM PDT]

  • 09.10.2009 2:58 PM PDT

^Good example. I used to lan with my friends quite a lot before i got rid of my spare 360, and when playing Halo 3 i got the reload glitch countless times, in addition to a rare snipe not registering.

It's not just Xbox live.

  • 09.10.2009 4:32 PM PDT
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its not competitiveness(spelling?) that i'm worried about. most of the games i've played in halo 3 were ranked. its that i hope that bungie doesn't favor the MLG crowd more

  • 09.10.2009 4:45 PM PDT
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Posted by: SuSCo tK
Posted by: Mister Kutters
Posted by: SuSCo tK
Posted by: Vexinator
I have no problem with MLG / competitive gamers but it seems the "flaws" with Halo 3 MM you point out in your original post are unfounded. You even identify the reason you're points are flawed and this is it. The internet. Yes, annoying things happen in Halo 3 online, just like Gears 2 seems to lag every other game online, and how some online games just plain don't work at all. It has nothing to do with "Bungie making a better game" what it has to do with is better servers etc so that there is reduced lag. I guarantee you that all the supposed "flaws" that you have found in Halo 3 online do not present themsleves when you play splitscreen offline. To be honest Bungie have done a fantastic job minimising the effects of lag in Halo 3 to those minor hiccups you outlined in your original post considering the tens of thousands of people that play Halo 3 everyday and you only need to look at the online of other games to see that point.


It does have to do with them making a better game, actually. Halo 2 net coding allowed bullet registration more often than in Halo 3. You know your net code is poor when bullets dont register on LAN. And like i said, I'm telling Bungie to stop blaming these things on the internet when they happen offline (LAN) aswell. Please put some thought into your post next time, no offense though.


these things DONT happen on LAN. you are a liar and an MLG fanboy. knock it off


Would you like video proof?

Click this

^Page 3, Triggers down vs. Believe The Hype (BtH) Game 7 Pit TS. Start watching at 6:14. Hysteria's sniper shot results in only a bloodshot, and Puckett lets everybody know at about 6:30.

And LAN as in 4 Xboxes hooked to a router in the same room, not 1 xbox splitscreening. With 1 xbox on splitscreens everybody has host (since its just 1 xbox). On LAN, if you didnt know, there are also hosts and clients. So it is very true that bullets dont register on LAN off host, which is sad because everybody is in the same room right next to eachother on the same connection. Thats where Halo 3's terrible net coding comes into play. Online play (for the most part) is why bullets dont reg online and Net coding is why bullets dont reg on LAN (for the most part).

There are way more incidents of this happening captured on video just at MLG's events, but this is just to show you its possible.

BTW, in Amature bracket at Meadowlands, I got reload glitched when i was about to get a kill with the rockets on Pit TS, and it cost me a kill. Not only that, they then had rockets and some kid ended up going on a spree. (We ended up destroying anyway, but I'm just trying to prove that flaws that occur on LAN really affect gameplay, and for those that don't know, the Meadowlands is in NJ and was MLG's first stop of the Pro Circuit in April, so of course i was playing LAN).

And if I'm an MLG Fanboy, you're a Bungie loving, AR addicted, Lone Wolves Fanboy.

You're probably saying wow that was so stupid. Of course it is, and so was what you said about me being an MLG fanboy, so shush.


i know that i'm not the person you were quoting but uh.. i do like the AR and my highest skill is in Lone Wolves

  • 09.10.2009 4:47 PM PDT
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[SuSCo]

Posted by: King of March
Posted by: SuSCo tK
Posted by: Mister Kutters
Posted by: SuSCo tK
Posted by: Vexinator
I have no problem with MLG / competitive gamers but it seems the "flaws" with Halo 3 MM you point out in your original post are unfounded. You even identify the reason you're points are flawed and this is it. The internet. Yes, annoying things happen in Halo 3 online, just like Gears 2 seems to lag every other game online, and how some online games just plain don't work at all. It has nothing to do with "Bungie making a better game" what it has to do with is better servers etc so that there is reduced lag. I guarantee you that all the supposed "flaws" that you have found in Halo 3 online do not present themsleves when you play splitscreen offline. To be honest Bungie have done a fantastic job minimising the effects of lag in Halo 3 to those minor hiccups you outlined in your original post considering the tens of thousands of people that play Halo 3 everyday and you only need to look at the online of other games to see that point.


It does have to do with them making a better game, actually. Halo 2 net coding allowed bullet registration more often than in Halo 3. You know your net code is poor when bullets dont register on LAN. And like i said, I'm telling Bungie to stop blaming these things on the internet when they happen offline (LAN) aswell. Please put some thought into your post next time, no offense though.


these things DONT happen on LAN. you are a liar and an MLG fanboy. knock it off


Would you like video proof?

Click this

^Page 3, Triggers down vs. Believe The Hype (BtH) Game 7 Pit TS. Start watching at 6:14. Hysteria's sniper shot results in only a bloodshot, and Puckett lets everybody know at about 6:30.

And LAN as in 4 Xboxes hooked to a router in the same room, not 1 xbox splitscreening. With 1 xbox on splitscreens everybody has host (since its just 1 xbox). On LAN, if you didnt know, there are also hosts and clients. So it is very true that bullets dont register on LAN off host, which is sad because everybody is in the same room right next to eachother on the same connection. Thats where Halo 3's terrible net coding comes into play. Online play (for the most part) is why bullets dont reg online and Net coding is why bullets dont reg on LAN (for the most part).

There are way more incidents of this happening captured on video just at MLG's events, but this is just to show you its possible.

BTW, in Amature bracket at Meadowlands, I got reload glitched when i was about to get a kill with the rockets on Pit TS, and it cost me a kill. Not only that, they then had rockets and some kid ended up going on a spree. (We ended up destroying anyway, but I'm just trying to prove that flaws that occur on LAN really affect gameplay, and for those that don't know, the Meadowlands is in NJ and was MLG's first stop of the Pro Circuit in April, so of course i was playing LAN).

And if I'm an MLG Fanboy, you're a Bungie loving, AR addicted, Lone Wolves Fanboy.

You're probably saying wow that was so stupid. Of course it is, and so was what you said about me being an MLG fanboy, so shush.


i know that i'm not the person you were quoting but uh.. i do like the AR and my highest skill is in Lone Wolves


Lol I'm sorry, but i just said that to make a point at what he said was stupid, just like what i said was too. No offense to anybody who actually likes the AR or Lone Wolves, LW is actually fun =) (most of the time lol).

  • 09.10.2009 4:58 PM PDT

I wrote a well-though out reply, but then for some reason it didn't submit. Here it is in point form:

don't remove equipment or DWing, fix it.

Bullet spread should be decreased slightly on semi-auto weps ONLY

I always felt that big maps were more of halo's style, even if CE only had a couple.

Remove BR, replace with M6D and MA5K

3 grenades of each type max, [referably 2. 16 grenades total would be chaos.

  • 09.10.2009 5:22 PM PDT

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