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Subject: An analysis of Sierra 259 (not definitively a Spartan)
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Upon watching the Reach trailer that came out some time in June, we heard the controversial statement by an unknown soldier.

"This is Sierra 259. You've got Spartans on the groun, sir. We're not going anywhere."

To some, this would be proof that 259 is a Spartan, when it really isn't. I'll explain with a hypothetical situation. You are a marine (or an officer), and your squad is besieged by covenant. You suddenly hear a pelican behind you, and out comes a Spartan team to help you. Your CO just gave you orders to retreat, but you radio in that you are staying with the Spartans. What do you say?

"This is Sierra 259 (your I.D.), you've got Spartans on the ground, sir (telling your CO that he has Spartans on the battlefield). We're not going anywhere (we meaning everyone including you, it could mean yourself and the surrounding Spartans and your squad)."

Another argument is that people say Sierra = Spartan. This is wrong. Sierra is merely military phonetical alphabet to disguise their messages over the radio. The military uses it all the time for other secret messages they don't want the enemy to know about. True, in the Halo franchise, Master Chief is referred to as "Sierra," but who is the only human (not counting ODSTs) you play in the Halo Universe? Master Chief, so of course you would hear him being referred to as Sierra. If we played the franchise as a sniper, you would be saying 259 is that sniper because you heard them being referred to as Sierra.

These are all leaps of faith people make to satisfy their desire to play as a Spartan. What makes a Spartan a more likely meaning for Sierra than a Spec Ops soldier, a pelican transporting Spartans, a Sniper, or a stolen Spirit drop ship/Seraph fighter?

There are plenty of arguments to justify why Sierra 259 could be a Spartan (notice the key word there), just make sure to back up your arguments.

*I know this topic has been discussed in other threads, but Bungie frowns on Necroposting.*

  • 09.28.2009 5:42 PM PDT

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Sierra 259 is probably a Pelican. Like in Halo: CE, Foehammer's Pelican's call sign was Echo 419. Echo being the phonetic term for "E".

  • 09.28.2009 5:59 PM PDT

I agree with these. I believe this is more likely a pelican designation that will play a supporting role in the story(like how Echo 419 played a supporting role in Halo 1). Remember all we have is a teaser for Reach. In the past Bungie teasers tell us little about the game and typical focus on a supporting part in the game(Ex. Superintendent in ODST, the ark portal in Halo 3, and master chief space battle in halo 2).

  • 09.28.2009 6:27 PM PDT
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The phonetic alphabet isn't so people don't know what you're saying. It's so you can hear it better over static and sounds like gunfire and crap.

  • 09.28.2009 6:40 PM PDT

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Posted by: RichyRichy29
I agree with these. I believe this is more likely a pelican designation that will play a supporting role in the story(like how Echo 419 played a supporting role in Halo 1). Remember all we have is a teaser for Reach. In the past Bungie teasers tell us little about the game and typical focus on a supporting part in the game(Ex. Superintendent in ODST, the ark portal in Halo 3, and master chief space battle in halo 2).
Then who is Sierra-320?

  • 09.28.2009 6:48 PM PDT

come on dude are you kidding me, look at the -blam!- halo reach cover thing, those are obviously 5 -blam!- spartans. Also, if you listen you can also hear a chick say "this is Sierra blah blah blah dressed for combat insertion." And lastly Bungie isn't playing a trick on you Reach was where all the spartans died, and when the guy says sierra 259 you've got spartans on the ground sir he's obviously not -blam!- talking about a godamn -blam!- pelican ok hosly -blam!- think about it.

  • 09.28.2009 6:49 PM PDT

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Posted by: BBFOB
come on dude are you kidding me, look at the -blam!- halo reach cover thing, those are obviously 5 -blam!- spartans. Also, if you listen you can also hear a chick say "this is Sierra blah blah blah dressed for combat insertion." And lastly Bungie isn't playing a trick on you Reach was where all the spartans died, and when the guy says sierra 259 you've got spartans on the ground sir he's obviously not -blam!- talking about a godamn -blam!- pelican ok hosly -blam!- think about it.
Just because you throw in cuss words every -blam!- second doesn't make you a genius. Ok?
Now, there were a total of 150 spartans. They were numbered 001-150. Please explain to me, WHERE THE HELL DID SPARTAN - 259 COME FROM? You don't know anything, stop acting like you do.

  • 09.28.2009 6:56 PM PDT

Wherever you roam
so far from home
you'll be safe from peril
life threatening and terrible
if you avoid David Powel
and keep track of your towel.

Of course it's not proof. But:

"This is Sierra 259, you've got Spartans on the ground sir. We aren't going anywhere."

strongly suggests that Spartan-II Class 2s will be the central focus of Halo Reach. We have the precedent of Master Chief being referred to and hailed as Sierra 117.

There really isn't any proof that the trailer depicts the Battle of Reach, that the planet in the trailer even is Reach, or that it's being attacked by the Covenant yet these are held as facts. To be frank the people staunchly denying that Sierra 259 = Spartan-259 does not at least have compelling supporting evidence are just being -blam!- because they think that Spartans numbered higher than 150 would create a canonical discontinuity (it wouldn't by the way).

[Edited on 09.28.2009 6:58 PM PDT]

  • 09.28.2009 6:56 PM PDT

I don't even know.

Read Halo: The Fall of Reach please.

  • 09.28.2009 6:57 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: EldritchWarlord
Of course it's not proof. But:

"This is Sierra 259, you've got Spartans on the ground sir. We aren't going anywhere."

strongly suggests that Spartan-II Class 2s will be the central focus of Halo Reach. We have the precedent of Master Chief being referred to and hailed as Sierra 117.

There really isn't any proof that the trailer depicts the Battle of Reach, that the planet in the trailer even is Reach, or that it's being attacked by the Covenant. To be frank the people staunchly denying that Sierra 259 = Spartan-259 does not at least have compelling supporting evidence are just being -blam!- because they think that Spartans numbered higher than 150 would create a canonical discontinuity (it wouldn't by the way).


Anyways, alot of people out there believe that the 5 people in the Banner are Spartan II class II's, but in reality, they don't exist. The class II's were a cancelled project.


After the graduation of the first class of SPARTAN-IIs in 2525, Dr. Halsey began planning for the next wave of Spartans; her efforts, however, ran into problems. There were too few candidates that were in sync with her age restriction protocol and a majority of her funding was going towards MJOLNIR maintenance and construction; leaving little room for continued training efforts. By 2531, the majority of her funds had been diverted and she was forced to postpone the effort indefinitely.


This means that Halsey never got around to finishing the class II's, and Mendez was later called to Ackersons "Spartan III" project.

Spartan III's cost much less the Spartan II's, could be trained faster, and didn't use the costly MJOLNIR armor. These Spartan IIIs could be "produced" in bulk, since they didn't go through as many risky genetic augmentation processes. Since Halsey wasn't on board with this project, they are not class II's.

While we are on the Spartan III subject, I'm going to point out why it is impossible for Spartan IIIs to be a part of this game.

Reach was invaded August 30th, 2552.

All of Alpha company was killed in 2537
All of Beta Company was killed in 2545, except for Tom and Lucy, who went on to train Gamma.
Gamma company didn't receive orders to move off of Oynx until October 2552, After Reach had fell. And Even if Some of Gamma was at Reach (no clue how they would of gotten there) they have different call signs, such as "Ash - G099"


Enough with the Spartan III's.


Now, some people will say, "What about Nicole-458, she was a Class II" The Truth behind that is, Nicole is a non-canon character made up by Bungie to be put in Team Ninjas Dead or Alive 4. Team Ninja originally request Master Chief, but Bungie instead gave them Nicole.

However, the most controversial thing of all, is I love Bees.

In October 2004, Joe was asked if ILB is canon, he replied:
Joe Staten:
"The Bees would not make the cut. Those guys basically did their own thing with very little Bungie input (save for massaging and approving the initial plot-treatment). While we helped define the boundaries of their fiction, we let them do what they thought best. And I think the game turned out great."


However, In July 2006 Frank O Conner stated:
Frankie:
"We're going to have this huge collection of canon and things that we embrace as canon, like I Love Bees and stuff like that."


Yet, that same year, Joe Staten said:
Joe Staten:
We're in the process of figuring out what was canon and what was not, and ILB was part of that neutrality.


I love Bees hasn't been mentioned since then, so I believe it's safe to say that it is NOT canon, especially since it directly violates other canon, such as the time in which characters Shaw and Fujikawa were supposed to have been alive.


Now, that still leaves the question, "What about the higher number spartans, such as "259" and "320"

Now it is very true that we haven't seen a Spartan II with a call sign this high, but that doesn't mean there isn't anyway. MLG Cheewawa was right when he said that the Human controlled planets at that time meant that there was trillions of Humans and children to scan, it's possible that more than 320 children were scanned possible induction, then it was narrowed too 150, then 75.

Hell, it's possible that these "Higher Numbered" spartans were in our face the entire time.

Spartans such as James, Mike, and Cassandra have played large roles in the novels, and Halo canon, and they've never had their numbers stated. Plus, there is still 11 unnamed spartans who's numbers could be higher than 150.



Hopefully, this cleared some things up for you, and you know now why It is possible that these Spartans are part of the original group of spartans, and Not class II's, or spartan III's.

[Edited on 09.28.2009 6:58 PM PDT]

  • 09.28.2009 6:57 PM PDT

1. We know Seirra is used for spartans so assuming that this sierra refers to a spartan is not a huge leap as you presume

2. Could it stand for something else, yes, but then it could also be some random person who you never meet with a special code name of Sierra ###,

3. Assuming you are marines is a farther stretch then that sierra refers to a spartan, seeing as how we never play as ordinary marines in any Halo

4. It's not that it needs to be a spartan or is guaranteed but with what we know of the halo series doesn't it seem like the most likely case is it refers to a spartan

5. Numbering system, Who knows maybe their where spartan's 1 or 3's who had a different form of number ID's

6. About the Canon, Bungie can change canon to be whatever they want, to them the books are below the games cannon wise so if a game contradicts a book then the game is true and the book is false

  • 09.28.2009 7:09 PM PDT

Wherever you roam
so far from home
you'll be safe from peril
life threatening and terrible
if you avoid David Powel
and keep track of your towel.

Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: EldritchWarlord
Of course it's not proof. But:

"This is Sierra 259, you've got Spartans on the ground sir. We aren't going anywhere."

strongly suggests that Spartan-II Class 2s will be the central focus of Halo Reach. We have the precedent of Master Chief being referred to and hailed as Sierra 117.

There really isn't any proof that the trailer depicts the Battle of Reach, that the planet in the trailer even is Reach, or that it's being attacked by the Covenant. To be frank the people staunchly denying that Sierra 259 = Spartan-259 does not at least have compelling supporting evidence are just being -blam!- because they think that Spartans numbered higher than 150 would create a canonical discontinuity (it wouldn't by the way).


Anyways, alot of people out there believe that the 5 people in the Banner are Spartan II class II's, but in reality, they don't exist. The class II's were a cancelled project.


After the graduation of the first class of SPARTAN-IIs in 2525, Dr. Halsey began planning for the next wave of Spartans; her efforts, however, ran into problems. There were too few candidates that were in sync with her age restriction protocol and a majority of her funding was going towards MJOLNIR maintenance and construction; leaving little room for continued training efforts. By 2531, the majority of her funds had been diverted and she was forced to postpone the effort indefinitely.


This means that Halsey never got around to finishing the class II's, and Mendez was later called to Ackersons "Spartan III" project.



This is no proof. It does not state explicitly that no more Spartan-IIs were trained, and if I guess the context right (Ghosts of Onyx) it could be an outright lie to help persuade support for the Spartan-III project. And even if it isn't have you heard of "retcon". It is the technique in which writers will alter previously established canon slightly in order to facilitate their current story-telling needs. the Halo franchise has done this already with Elites, Hunters, Brutes, and Drones being seen in the Human-Covenant War prior to 2552.

The Spartan-II Class 2 being canceled is highly subject to retconning as only a few sentences indicate that it was and there exists no detailed account of Dr. Halsey's activities between the Class 1 graduation and the Battle of Reach.

Posted by:

6. About the Canon, Bungie can change canon to be whatever they want, to them the books are below the games cannon wise so if a game contradicts a book then the game is true and the book is false


I agree with what you said besides this, which is retarded to be honest. The hierarchy of canon is dictated by release date and Word of God. As of now ODST is the most canonical Halo media since it was released the most recently. If it contradicts any official statement or previous media then that official statement or media has officially been retconned.

[Edited on 09.28.2009 7:18 PM PDT]

  • 09.28.2009 7:12 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: CrazyJediMaster
1. We know Seirra is used for spartans so assuming that this sierra refers to a spartan is not a huge leap as you presume

2. Could it stand for something else, yes, but then it could also be some random person who you never meet with a special code name of Sierra ###,

3. Assuming you are marines is a farther stretch then that sierra refers to a spartan, seeing as how we never play as ordinary marines in any Halo

4. It's not that it needs to be a spartan or is guaranteed but with what we
know of the halo series doesn't it seem like the most likely case is it refers to a spartan

5. Numbering system, Who knows maybe their where spartan's 1 or 3's who
had a different form of number ID's

6. About the Canon, Bungie can change canon to be whatever they want, to them the books are below the games cannon wise so if a game contradicts a
book then the game is true and the book is false

1. True, but what makes Spartan more likely than Sniper. Also, see my second argument in the OP answering this question.

3. Considering we know almost nothing about the characters for this game, wouldn't it be equally probable that we play as a marine or Spartan?

4. You only play as one human throughout the trilogy (not counting ODST), so you only have one perspective on the series. Though Sierra is evidenced to refer to Spartan sometimes, this doesn't mean every time we hear the UNSC say Sierra we should automatically think Spartan.



[Edited on 09.28.2009 7:35 PM PDT]

  • 09.28.2009 7:31 PM PDT

Posted by: P3P5I

1. True, but what makes Spartan more likely than Sniper.

3. Considering we know almost nothing about the characters for this game, wouldn't it be equally probable that we play as a marine or Spartan?

4. You only play as one human throughout the trilogy (not counting ODST), so you only have one perspective on the series. Though Sierra is evidenced to refer to Spartan sometimes, this doesn't mean every time we hear the UNSC say Sierra we should automatically think Spartan.



1. The fact that it HAS been used to classify a Spartan in game. And we have never heard it used to classify anything else.

3. Could be a possibility, but outside of ODST, in which we knew early on that it wasn't master cheif, The main character has always been a spartan, so it progresion of what has been succesful.

4. Ahh, I agree and that is why I am trying to be encourage a good conversation on this instead of flaming. The possibility is their but it's also possible we play a game where all you do is listen to radio traffic between groups of soldiers. So its an argument between what can be and what is most likely and/or logical.

  • 09.28.2009 7:38 PM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: CrazyJediMaster
1. The fact that it HAS been used to classify a Spartan in game. And we have never heard it used to classify anything else.

3. Could be a possibility, but outside of ODST, in which we knew early on that it wasn't master cheif, The main character has always been a spartan, so it progresion of what has been succesful.

4. Ahh, I agree and that is why I am trying to be encourage a good conversation on this instead of flaming. The possibility is their but it's also possible we play a game where all you do is listen to radio traffic between
groups of soldiers. So its an argument between what can be and what is most likely and/or logical.

Bungie has made this game to simulate humanity in the future, that is why the unsc military seems so much like ours today. We have only heard it classify a Spartan because all we play as are a Spartan. It's like being blind your whole life and refusing to believe in color because you never saw it. Of course, this plays into your point 4, which I will answer in a bit.

For your third point. We play as MC so much because he was the main character in that trilogy. Since it is over, it is like starting a new slate, we don't know what Bungie will include. How can you say Spartan is more likely if Bungie is starting a new part seperate from the trilogy? We have also seen from ODST that Bungie Is willing to try different characters.

Last point. You are right, we can conclude that we won't play as hello kitty in Reach, but can you come to the same conclusion if I say we could be playing as ODST's in Reach? True, you can say it is more likely a Spartan, but the evidence for it are circumstantial and aren't solid. Buck was in Reach, maybe we'll play as him.

  • 09.28.2009 8:13 PM PDT
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To put it bluntly, those who say that S-259 are not a Spartan are clutching at straws.

Let us amass the evidence for S-259's Spartan-hood.

1. In virtually every previous use of Sierra in the Bungie lore, it has referred to a Spartan. There is no indication, what-so-ever, that a new game would bring any change to that system.

2. Look at the banner. That shows the main character(s) of the game. And, following standard practice, the main character is in the center. Is that a Spartan? Yes. The armor loos like Spartan Armor, the pose looks like Spartan Armor.


3. Finally, why would a marine be calling in the presence of Spartans? Lets think about this logically, the line is, roughly, "this is Sierra 259, you've got Spartans on the ground, sir." Honestly, can you imagine some random Marine calling that in? That line is a practical give-away that S-259 is a Spartan. The line is delivered precisely and without fear, the opposite of the tense combat chatter from everyone else. Why would some random Marine, in the middle of chaos, suddenly become fearless?

Basically, there is no evidence, from the two pieces of information from given to us, by Bungie, that they are not Spartans.

Now, as to the Spartan - II class 2s. Yes, the previous books say that the class was cancelled because of funding issues. But, given the quite amazing success of Spartan - IIs Class 1, if I were the UNSC, I'd be mad if I didn't try it again. Yes, Bungie would need to do some retconning, but that won't be an issue. Really, if they've made an amazing game, who is going to go to the Bungie studios and protest that they've changed a few facts in a few books?

  • 09.28.2009 8:34 PM PDT
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The main reason why Sierra 259 is being referred to as a Spartan is because, you know the Chief has been referred to as Sierra 117. That point there is extremely easy to latch on to and till we know more, makes the most sense.

I very much wish its not. And we play as a Marine. I still go by my theory that not all of those 5 guys above in that banner are Spartans. But, lets not bring that up.

  • 09.29.2009 12:50 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: Dartganan
To put it bluntly, those who say that S-259 are not a Spartan are clutching at straws.

Let us amass the evidence for S-259's Spartan-hood.

1. In virtually every previous use of Sierra in the Bungie lore, it has referred to a Spartan. There is no indication, what-so-ever, that a new game would bring any change to that system.


Wrong.

Look up Combat Team Sierra. It was a fire-team aboard the Piller of Autumn.

  • 09.29.2009 5:28 AM PDT

actually if you had read the books. It says that Mendez leaves wherever the spartans were ORIGINALLY trained to go begin a new wave of spartans so -blam!- you. I know what I'm talking about don't be an idiot.

  • 09.29.2009 6:46 AM PDT

You guys even considered that we could also have something like Halo 2 the Masterchief/Arbiter storyline?
So we could have a campaign that includes Spartans or ODST's such as Buck and Veronica (DARE) and you guys even noticed that ODST's in Halo 3 ODST do NOT even use callsigns such as S259/S320 and the other stuff you can make...
And the Pelican stuff seems likely but realise that NO pelicans were around when the Spartans crashlanded on Reach only the Pelican the Spartans were in...so that also seems very unlikely(so they can't say: you got Spartans on the ground)
But I also have to admit that there isn't even a 50% chance that they are Spartans since the Commanding Spartan was Fred and he had (if i'm correct) 104 and I don't think that any other Spartan would report to the HQ... so a likely thing is,ONLY when considering that the S means Spartan,that there actually was a Class II Spartan II's`and that those Spartans are also fighting...(unless.., look further into post)
And tbh a Covenant/UNSC campaign would also be possible.. but then they only have to put 1 side at one time with different events not that you would have 2 campaigns along eachother because in the UNSC campaign you would be owning Covenant and vice versa..
And also we might be wrong all together since the trailer can't reveal that much only suggest+ there is enough to tell about Spartans... and that the S259 etc. are just something we missed---> unnamed Spartans

Anyway this is speculation :)

  • 09.29.2009 7:25 AM PDT

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Posted by: EldritchWarlord
Of course it's not proof. But:

"This is Sierra 259, you've got Spartans on the ground sir. We aren't going anywhere."

strongly suggests that Spartan-II Class 2s will be the central focus of Halo Reach. We have the precedent of Master Chief being referred to and hailed as Sierra 117.

There really isn't any proof that the trailer depicts the Battle of Reach, that the planet in the trailer even is Reach, or that it's being attacked by the Covenant yet these are held as facts. To be frank the people staunchly denying that Sierra 259 = Spartan-259 does not at least have compelling supporting evidence are just being -blam!- because they think that Spartans numbered higher than 150 would create a canonical discontinuity (it wouldn't by the way).

is it possible that u never passed grade 1 it says HALO:REACH! the planet is reach ok it is were a armageddon happened and wiped out 149 of the spartans

  • 09.29.2009 7:48 AM PDT

it's good to be a supersaiyan !

I love this thread. Everybody has an opinion and most of it is obviously based on what people want to be in the game. Meaning, if you want something to be in the game you find proof in what litle they gave us (and it really is litle).

Let's just say that the only thing we know for sure is that there will be Spartans (multiple) in the game and Reach will have a big part to play in the game (why else would they call it Halo: Reach???).

Now for my personal opinion.

I think you will be playing with a group of at least four Spartans (no idea how they will be implemented, ODST style or more squad based).

About the picture, the one on the far left looks like an Elite to me...I know it makes no sence since I read the books and why would an Elite be fighting alongside humans at that stage. But still It looks like an Elite to me.

Last comment: Bungie can do WHATEVER THEY LIKE with this game and trust me THEY WILL. They will change and alter storylines as much as they want to make a kick ass game. And I salute them for it!

  • 09.29.2009 8:02 AM PDT

Posted by: lurkerman98
Posted by: EldritchWarlord
Of course it's not proof. But:

"This is Sierra 259, you've got Spartans on the ground sir. We aren't going anywhere."

strongly suggests that Spartan-II Class 2s will be the central focus of Halo Reach. We have the precedent of Master Chief being referred to and hailed as Sierra 117.

There really isn't any proof that the trailer depicts the Battle of Reach, that the planet in the trailer even is Reach, or that it's being attacked by the Covenant yet these are held as facts. To be frank the people staunchly denying that Sierra 259 = Spartan-259 does not at least have compelling supporting evidence are just being -blam!- because they think that Spartans numbered higher than 150 would create a canonical discontinuity (it wouldn't by the way).

is it possible that u never passed grade 1 it says HALO:REACH! the planet is reach ok it is were a armageddon happened and wiped out 149 of the spartans


Yes, However the book mentions many times that there was a second wave of Spartan III's (note III because I was discontinued due to insufficient funds and time and II is John's wave) being trained on another planet so it is very possible that the entire story will be based on these spartans and their adventures.

  • 09.29.2009 7:20 PM PDT

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Posted by: BBFOB
come on dude are you kidding me, look at the -blam!- halo reach cover thing, those are obviously 5 -blam!- spartans. Also, if you listen you can also hear a chick say "this is Sierra blah blah blah dressed for combat insertion." And lastly Bungie isn't playing a trick on you Reach was where all the spartans died, and when the guy says sierra 259 you've got spartans on the ground sir he's obviously not -blam!- talking about a godamn -blam!- pelican ok hosly -blam!- think about it.
Wrong. Not all Spartans died there.

  • 09.29.2009 8:00 PM PDT

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