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  • Subject: BR change that would make everyone happy
Subject: BR change that would make everyone happy

jason ryan

if the br is not a starting weapon it would make the game more creative by the players using other weapons.

  • 10.08.2009 11:44 AM PDT
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Can you believe it?

Leaving that stupid weapon out would be more likely to make everyone happy. I'd rather have a bunch of "useless" weapons over being forced to use the same crappy gun for everything.

[Edited on 10.08.2009 11:54 AM PDT]

  • 10.08.2009 11:54 AM PDT

"Dear Humanity; we regret being alien bastards. We regret coming to Earth. And we most definitely regret that the Corps just blew up our raggedy-ass fleet!"
—Avery J. Johnson
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Posted by: Blade967
Leaving that stupid weapon out would be more likely to make everyone happy. I'd rather have a bunch of "useless" weapons over being forced to use the same crappy gun for everything.

Finnaly, someone who said it. the BR55 is one crappy gun.
To OP, Rank doesnt mean -blam!-, and the battle rifle makes up most of your rank, so, you would be hopless without it.
Please, OP, say something that is a good valid point, which means do not include rank in it, you are just making your fight harder and therfore, you are losing.

  • 10.08.2009 1:32 PM PDT
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All it took was a stew of whoopass.

Stop making ranks a big deal, THEY MEAN NOTHING!So, if somebody has a rank you think is bad, they can't say anything?

  • 10.08.2009 2:03 PM PDT

"Blind eyes could look at me
And see the truth"
-Lil Wayne, Mr. Carter

Posted by: SweetTRIX
Posted by: RELLIK PIR
Posted by: Wild Bovine
um since "balance" is a relevant term (in this case the BR's power relative to the power of other weapons) yes actually changing other weapons will balance or unbalance the BR. It would be alot more work to overhaul the entire game based on one weapon. If you want the game to be really competitive this would probably be the best option... but who said Halo needed to be highly competitive. I like the idea of having an MLG playlist with the current BR and having other playlists with the new more balanced one. Perhaps a custom game matchmaking system would be appropriate?


Um no it wouldn't be any work at all to change weapon traits pre release. It is as simple as changing a few values and maybe altering the reticule. I doubt it but I watched a modder at work in H2. Changing weapon traits took a minute. Then a week of testing by gamers...NOT their staff. Considering all of 1 of them even has a 50 in Halo.


Dude, right here, this is what is wrong with your views. You feel that someone that has a high MM rank has a more relevant opinion of the game and how it should function. Are you really so ignorant to realize that the high ranking people are going to want more of what makes it easier for them to achieve a high rank. The BR's popularity is based on it's utility and simplicity, and no balance is not realative in this situation.

If you look at every weapon, every weapon in the game (currently) you can clear identify limitations, each weapon has it's "sandbox" if you will. The BR does not, it can be used consistently and efficiently at all ranges aside from extreme short, or extreme long. This is a balance issue, plain and simple.

The game needs to be balanced by people who understand what balance actually is, not people who will do what they can to retain the rank that they want. Anyone with intelligence will agree that the "competitive gamer" is not part of the majority, same goes for the self-proclaimed "good" or "elite".


Note I don't side with the OP, I think he's being a jerk and I don't really agree with his opinions that much. But to say that the BR works in every environment is ridiculous. The random spread makes mid range inconsistent at times, and makes it very hard to use long range.

  • 10.08.2009 2:23 PM PDT

"I was born with Halo, live with Halo...die with Halo."
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Posted by: RELLIK PIR
HCE HUGE HIT has CE pistol

H2 HUGE HIT has BR which sucks. Then they change it to super rifle we love

H3 huge hit BR while not perfect we make do.

Halo reach without a BR or like weapon. FLOP.

Sorry but most bad kids follow the good ones and a game without a Utility weapon will chase away the entire MLG population and even if we are small all the people that will follow us because we are awesome isn't.

This isn't a cocky thing. When I was bad I stalked the good players when I got good the bad players stalked me. Just because some hate us doesn't mean they don't want to be us.


H2 BR had better spread.
H3 BR has random spread.

Just fix the BR spread to something similar to halo 2s then it would be a lot better.

  • 10.08.2009 2:26 PM PDT
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Posted by: BTE
Posted by: Xharpan
it doese'nt look nextgen , looks good but not nextgen
If by next-gen you mean crappy, dark and colorless, I agree. It doesnt look next-gen at all.

Posted by: RELLIK PIR
Funny how the first people to get 50s on DEFAULT settings were all PRO's. Don't be mad cause we are better no matter what.


You service record is not really that impressive. Also, the fact that you only seem to play with the same 3 people in your team is another huge advantage when it seems that most of the time you are getting carried by them.

  • 10.08.2009 3:34 PM PDT

Posted by: RoboticUnicorn
The thing most people don't realize for some reason, and they can't get the concept into their tiny brain, is that the BR is not overpowered in Halo 3. If you start everyone out with a BR, the good players who can actually aim, will kill everyone and the bad players will die alot more. However over time after learning to aim the bad players will become good and then they can contend with the other good players. In the Halo 3 system right now you can start with an Assault Rifle which you don't have to aim for the head and you can go around spraying and praying and getting kills. If everyone had BR starts, over time you would end up with everyone having an amount of skill and then I wouldn't have to complain when some tard goes -20 on my team.

They're not saying it's unbalanced in that way, they're saying it is unbalanced to the other weapons. That is why it needs to be changed, it makes most of the other weapons obselete.

[Edited on 10.08.2009 4:10 PM PDT]

  • 10.08.2009 4:08 PM PDT

There are points in this thread that hold some ground. I agree that there is a need the increase the power of other weapons, but I also agree that there needs to be an all purpose weapon. The aforementioned all purpose weapon needs to have counters. In halo 3 there are some weapons that beat the BR within their optimal range. The problem comes when their optimal range is pathetic and is so small that players have to resort to camping. The shotgun should fall somewhere between that of HCE and H2. The sniper should have a slightly faster bullet speed while still not being hitscan. Rockets are fine. Carbine should have the speed of the current sniper and have no spread. The magnum should be (dun-dun-duh) A TSK with VERY little auto aim and have a bullet speed increase. This will balance the game enough that the BR will be worth dropping while still be the all purpose weapon that we have come to expect. The BR is NOT THE ANSWER NOR THE PROBLEM, it is simply something that is distracting us from the fact that everything else is simply very weak.

  • 10.08.2009 5:06 PM PDT
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Posted by: SweetTRIX
So instead of fixing the only weapon that performs outside of it's own application, you feel it is more practical to overhaul everything else to fit with the BR?

The issue of BR balance is just that BR BALANCE. Changing around the other weapons won't make the BR any more or less balanced. The hard truth is that the BR was not a well thought out weapon, regardless of how popular it is.

No he's right. The pistol was balanced in Halo CE and it was much more powerful than the Halo BR, mostly because every other weapon was more powerful too.

  • 10.08.2009 5:13 PM PDT

"Dear Humanity; we regret being alien bastards. We regret coming to Earth. And we most definitely regret that the Corps just blew up our raggedy-ass fleet!"
—Avery J. Johnson
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Posted by: Lies
No he's right. The pistol was balanced in Halo CE and it was much more powerful than the Halo BR, mostly because every other weapon was more powerful too.

The pistol was actually balanced. It had no job other than to be the backup weapon for almost every other. It doesnt kill too quicly on its own, it isnt too acurate, not too powerful and it doesn't fire realy fast. Also, every other gun had a role, the pistol was the sub. for it(usually). want a rifle, but there are none, take a pistol. want a shot gun, take a rifle. want a sniper, take....IDK, want a rocket launcher, take grenades. Want a pistol, take a gold-plated pistol.

  • 10.08.2009 5:26 PM PDT

Doc: "i'm a pacifist"
Caboose: "your a thing that babies suck on?"
Tucker: "no dude, that's a pedephile"
Church: "tucker, i think he means a pacifier"

Posted by: Lies
Posted by: SweetTRIX
So instead of fixing the only weapon that performs outside of it's own application, you feel it is more practical to overhaul everything else to fit with the BR?

The issue of BR balance is just that BR BALANCE. Changing around the other weapons won't make the BR any more or less balanced. The hard truth is that the BR was not a well thought out weapon, regardless of how popular it is.

No he's right. The pistol was balanced in Halo CE and it was much more powerful than the Halo BR, mostly because every other weapon was more powerful too.


I see what your saying, but the arguement isn't whether or not a weapon is over-powered, it's an issue of balance. I've already stated in another post that I agree the CE pistol was hilariously over powered for a pistol, but regardless of that fact it was still balanced in CE's weapon set.

The BR is far too effective of a weapon when compared to the existing weapon group. The thing that I don't understand is why you would want to change how several weapons work, simply because one works too well. Typically you fix the one that's "off", not the ones that do what they are supposed to do.

Even though i've said it close to a half dozen times by this point, if the BR were altered to where it was simply and effective mid-range weapon, and wasn't usefull up close or in long range, i'd be 100% fine with it. But the current BR has too much functionality for a single weapon, as it is effective accross a broad spectrum. The only places it suffers are extreme close, and extreme long. Inside of that window, a BR can be effective in the right hands, and that is what needs to change.

  • 10.08.2009 6:01 PM PDT

"Dear Humanity; we regret being alien bastards. We regret coming to Earth. And we most definitely regret that the Corps just blew up our raggedy-ass fleet!"
—Avery J. Johnson
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To: RELLIK PIR

The only thing more nooby than a BR in its current state and position, is this

  • 10.08.2009 6:05 PM PDT

Great minds discuss ideas

Average minds discuss events

Small minds discuss people

Posted by: BU12NT TO4ST
Okay, first of all, everyone in this -blam!- thread needs to stop misspelling "you're".

Other than that, -blam!- your H2 and H3 weapon sets. ODST is the closest thing we've got to H1 - no duels, pistol makes a triumphant return, health system works like H1, grenades can be thrown a decent distance again, fall damage and crouch-landing to cancel said fall damage is back, and probably some other stuff I can't think of right now. And it's all awesome.

If Reach has the same weapon set and plays exactly like ODST, I'll be a very happy person.

Agreed. ODST was a step in the right direction. The BR isn't overpowered or unbalanced by itself, but compared to all other weapons, it doesn't fit. That needs to change

  • 10.08.2009 6:08 PM PDT

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Howz about we just remove the BR again?

Bungie had the BR good the first few weeks.

Then comes...*duh duh duh* MLG. Their ruthless rampag turn Halo into a competitive wasteland where nothing is true.

[Edited on 10.08.2009 7:20 PM PDT]

  • 10.08.2009 7:20 PM PDT

Doc: "i'm a pacifist"
Caboose: "your a thing that babies suck on?"
Tucker: "no dude, that's a pedephile"
Church: "tucker, i think he means a pacifier"

Posted by: RELLIK PIR
Posted by: SweetTRIX
I see what your saying, but the arguement isn't whether or not a weapon is over-powered, it's an issue of balance. I've already stated in another post that I agree the CE pistol was hilariously over powered for a pistol, but regardless of that fact it was still balanced in CE's weapon set.

The BR is far too effective of a weapon when compared to the existing weapon group. The thing that I don't understand is why you would want to change how several weapons work, simply because one works too well. Typically you fix the one that's "off", not the ones that do what they are supposed to do.

Even though i've said it close to a half dozen times by this point, if the BR were altered to where it was simply and effective mid-range weapon, and wasn't usefull up close or in long range, i'd be 100% fine with it. But the current BR has too much functionality for a single weapon, as it is effective accross a broad spectrum. The only places it suffers are extreme close, and extreme long. Inside of that window, a BR can be effective in the right hands, and that is what needs to change.


Rock, paper, scissors is not a game I am going to pay 60+ dollars for. So if you think that one non power weapon should always win over another in certain situations please go play Rock paper scissors where that philosophy belongs. K ThanX.

The BR is not overpowered the rest of the weapon set is underpowered. A consistent medium range weapon is impossible to keep effective at a certain range. A good player can hit things farther and closer. While making said weapon harder to use without toning down the power is fine by me it is impossible to keep me or thousands of other high end players and some kids that are retarded but can Aim from killing at all ranges effectively.

2 things that CAN NOT HAPPEN or else halo will die


1st
You can not make a Medium range/utility weapon kill any slower than the BR now. If it did this game would become boring because everyone would just run away slowing down gameplay to much. Relistically it needs to be able to kill just a bit faster than the BR now.
H2 BR was about perfect excluding combos. It wasn't so fast as to completely overwhelm new people but fast enough to keep gameplay interesting. Right now the BR is to slow and inconsistent and it has alienates the competitive community. IF we get a weapon like the H3 BR again we'll find a different game to buy.

2nd.
If the rest of the weapon set doesn't get an upgrade all 10 million people that are going to buy MF2 and not coming back. Like it is in reality and it keeps from repetitiveness, you can kill with about any weapon. Because while some weapons do some jobs better they all function like tools of war and death in that their effectiveness is more controlled by the user than the gun itself.
You want more balance and variety we want more useful weapons to kill with. It has a simple solution. When you shoot a weapon at someone they are going to die. Not after rounding a few corners chasing them. Under 3 seconds. 2 and under when used at optimum range. 3 if used at medium rang. 4-5 if at longer range in skilled hands.

In this weapon set you have a Ommy range weapon easiest to use at medium range but effective stopping power at all but very long range. This weapon should be extremely accurate but very difficult to use. It should slightly over power any non situational power weapon when used perfectly. Like the HCE pistol that thing overpowered everything when used to perfection. But that only happened at extreme levels of play so it was a great weapon for designing a skill curve with.


Rock, paper, scissors? Really, when has the general weapon set ever fallen into this rule? Because the general weapon set has their limits, it comes down to the player to decide the victor. The BR makes it too simple. Ask anyone in the competitive gaming world (since you claim to hail from it) why the use the BR, if you find someone honest, they will tell you it's because it works, it easilly trumps practically anything else on the board. This isn't due to their "great skill" (in most cases) but due to the utility of the BR.

Altering everything else for the sake of keeping the BR the way it is is stupid, it's a very -blam!- way to look at it. You want what you prefer, and everything else is wrong. The only thing that I can agree with you on is that the BR should take a little more skill to use, so it isn't so damn usefull.

The biggest difference between the so-called pro and the so called casual is typically the BR. No matter how good you are, if you remove the advantage of the BR your ability to play the game will take a hit, period. If they refine it and lessen it's utility then you will see who is actually skilled and who has just been skating by on an easy to use weapon.

CE is a good example of what i'm talking about. For many CE was a hard game to get good at, I know several people that weren't huge fans of it because if you were new to the game you would be easilly dominated, and the equalizer of the game, the pistol, was not an easy pick up and play weapon. You had to lead shots and have solid shot placement, there was not burst to help you, no sweeping, no hitscan, their was aim. Halo2 drew in a huge new crowd, and why?, simplicity. The new weapon set flattened the learning curve, and what was the biggest change to the weapon set? The inclusion of the BR. What was the biggest method used among high ranking players, and still is to this day?, map control and spawn trapping, and the BR is a huge part of this strategy.

I'm not trying to make anyones strategy appear "wrong", but without the BR and it's imbalance a lot of the top-tier players would have to alter their gameplay. if the weapon is such a lynch-pin, how could it possibly be balanced? How could it be the only weapon that's "right"? Preference doesn't equal balance. When I play Halo3 I use a BR every chance I can, cause it works really damn well, not cause everything else sucks, but cause it's just that usefull. Being a good player means being able to approach a situation and come out on top, regardless of what you use. A BR is a smart choice cause it adds to the advantage, but that does not make it balanced.

  • 10.09.2009 10:52 AM PDT

I'm just a guy like you that plays halo.

I just want them to either get rid of it or there is weapons that match it's capabilities (Not 4 shooting but make it as good)

I for one would like a improved Assault Rifle like what they did with the SMG and Auto-Mag.

  • 10.09.2009 11:16 AM PDT

Doc: "i'm a pacifist"
Caboose: "your a thing that babies suck on?"
Tucker: "no dude, that's a pedephile"
Church: "tucker, i think he means a pacifier"

Posted by: RELLIK PIR[/quote]

1 lets get something clear here. Should a CE pistol weapon be in Halo.. Should a skilled I mean really skilled player be able to dominate all non powerweapons? You answer should answer my R.P.S. problem. RPS is what a lot of BKs want so I may have jumped the gun when reading what you said.

Yes, Halo should have a solid mid-range option, whether pistol or rifle. The issue about a skilled player being able to use it to dominate all non-power weapons is entirely too dependant on the individuals involved and the situation they are in. In the same way that a shotty shouldn't work effectively outside of close range, a mid-range weapon should not dominate up close in typical circumstnaces.

2. I don't think I am disagreeing with the BR being to easy and a different weapon could take its place that is harder to use but as with HCE the pistol was a tool of the gods in the right hands so you don't have a problem with that just a problem with how easy it is to use?
The reason it is used by MLG is... What else is there? We wanted the CE pistol carbine and BR as options. Bungie gave us the H3 random noob BR. MLG players aren't delusional like that. Just bungie and B.net kids who are mad because their bad. We only get mad if we can't get better in which case we become B.net mad because we are bad.

I see what you are saying in regards to MLG, but you cannot honestly believe that the BR is used primarily simply because it is present. The Carbine, is in fact a better weapon, but requires a much more steady hand to be accurate and effective with it, but people gravitate towards the BR due to it's simplicity. The BR's simplicity is coupled with it's effective range, they go hand in hand. If it were less effective in the short and long range, it would inherently be harder to use, this is what I, as well as many believe would balance out the BR.

3. No matter what, I think all skill ranges want more weapons to be more useful. MLG just want a couple that kill quickly ,consistently, and take skill. Unless bungie separates the game into the MLG crowd and everyone else those weapons will mix and if weapons like the SMG, AR, spiker rifle don't get revamped like the ODST smg, we will be back at this because BKS will still -blam!- because some other kid was killing them with the overpowered weapon that they suck to much to use.
While you may not be one of them MOST people complain because they get destroyed by the BR not for any quantifiable reason.

Again I understand what you are saying here, but there is a big difference between losing to someone that is actually better than you, and losing to someone simply because you do not prefer the "easy kill". In Halo2, I hated the prospect of the PP/BR, combo, couldn't stand it. It was too damn easy I thought it was the weakest freaking way to score a kill, but it was also the easiest and most effective, and thus people did it en masse. Therefore if you don't prefer the "easy way" you are at a disadvantage to those that do, based on a weapon, not skill.

Example, if I play a game of snipers, and get completely embarrased by people who are great snipers, then that is not an issue of a weapons inbalance, that is an issue of me getting my ass handed to me by a better player (typically anyway). Now you take slayer, if I prefer (hypothetically) to use an AR/shotty combo to cover a decent spectrum of encounters, and everyone else uses BR's and camps the firing lane's I will be at a disadvantage based on weapons, not skill.

While this type of thing is un-avoidable to some degree or another, the current BR makes the problem worse than it needs to be. There are always going to be some type of balance issues, but it doesn't need to be as bad as it is with the BR.


4. That is true. While the BR is somewhat noob friendly it is among the top weapons for skill requirments. Along with the Carbine Sniper and pistol. Even really bad kids can get lucky with the sniper and get kills that single skill won't raise their rank.

I agree with what you say here to a certain extent. Based on some of the things you have said here, I believe you would agree with me that the Carbine is harder to use than the BR correct? That being said it is in it's very nature of simplicity that the BR is imbalanced. That is not to say that a BR user is without skill, there will always be those that are more capable then others, but the BR makes it too easy to have that advantage.

5. Um ya it will reduce the skill curve even farther. So while most people will stay high ranks because they are better at the game period. BKs will get more kills on them because their isn't a weapon of skill & power to separate them. Don't talk about removing the BR. Talk about replacing it with a Carbine or CE pistol style weapon. It leaves a bad taste in the mouth since we have come to rely on the weapon so much because bungie keeps making 1 useful weapon and 12 useless ones.

Here is where I feel that you and I will more than likely never agree. Removing the BR will cause people to have to get better in terms of gameplay, it will not flatten the learning curve further, it will simply force those who have gotten where they are using the BR to actually get good at the game, not just 4-shoting.

Halo, since it's beginning has been about adaptive gameplay, the BR streamlined it significantly. While the Carbine or even the scoped pistol serve the same purpose, they are more limited than the BR by the simple nature that they are single fire weapons. By that token, if the BR was "gone" then you would notice a big change in the rankings as only the really "skilled" (or cheaters in some cases) would stay on top, and several players that have built a reliance on the the BR would have to relearn the game.

Being good is more than just whoring a weapon, it's gameplay, how you move, how you plan, how you attack and how you defend. The BR is instrumental to several of the most cheap and IMO boring tactics known to the game, spawn camping, spawn trapping, fire lane camping, etc. Some (the people that use it) call these things setting up, but most of these strategies would not be as strong or as common without the ease of use brought about the BR.


6. How would you lessen a weapons utility to a skilled player. I could make assumptions but it would be a waste of time. Please be clear how that would work. You say making it harder but that just means less people can utilize it not how useful the weapon can be. sniper is a long range weapon but it can kill at any range and beat any weapon.

In simplist terms, making it harder to use will make it less useful to most, that is true in nearly all things. There will certainly be the group of people that spend the time to get great with another weapon, and that's expected, but it shouldn't be made easy for them with something like the BR in it's current form.

Following along with your example of the sniper, at close range there are some that are capable of pulling off no-scopes consistently. This is a very very small group when compared against the rest of the herd. Now you take the BR, it is no small group of people that are capable of being consistently good at multiple range sets, it is slowly becomming the majorty due to Bungie forcing BR spawns. As the skilled player that you keep claiming to be, you should understand that making it more skill demanding, lessening it's utility, will in effect weaken it's fan-base. A truly skilled player will take the time to get good again, but most BR afficionado's (not just MLG and high rankers) have their "skill" due to their reliance on the BR itself. I have played with a wide range of players, both online and in LAN, and when we've played customes w/o certain weapons, specifically the BR, many of the "better" xbl players suffer, because they cannot thrive on much else.


7. All I have to say to that wall and I have said it before. We wanted the CE pistol We wanted the H2 preview rifle. We didn't want the BR. We use it by force not by choice.

Fair enough, but that being said why would you continue to want the BR that you yourself have called into question? Wouldn't it make more sense to refine the BR to be more focused? In essence you and I seem want similar things, we just have different reasons and beliefs behind it


I've responded to your list in italics above.

  • 10.09.2009 1:10 PM PDT

Marine Corps.
Semper Fi.

Posted by: Wikked Navajoe
My problems [with Reach] are basically just full parties, mlg, and people who go out of their way not to get killed.

This thread made no sense. At least to me it didn't.

  • 10.09.2009 1:11 PM PDT
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Posted by: old bad dog
Howz about we just remove the BR again?

Bungie had the BR good the first few weeks.

Then comes...*duh duh duh* MLG. Their ruthless rampag turn Halo into a competitive wasteland where nothing is true.

I hope you are trolling, because that made absolutely no sense. How did MLG change the BR? Oh wait, they didn't.

People play the way they want to, if there was no MLG the same people that want BR starts now would still want them. MLG has changed nothing.

  • 10.09.2009 1:22 PM PDT