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Subject: *Melee Lunge: Stay or Go?*

Posted by: MrPinke7103
- As opposed to: "Oh it appears I am close enough for a melee attack, I'll just look in his general direction and... alas my radar guided fist has landed on target, that was a rather uneventful happening


To simplify things, yes, it could be like that. Just how I can say "I have a battle rifle. I see a guy. I fire four bursts into his head and he dies, thats was a rather uneventufl happening." when we all know that it is never this easy. Opponents strafe, jump, weave, use cover, bring a buddy, throw grenades, retreat, ghandi hop, all sorts of things to make your job much harder.

Likewise in Melee combat, to boil it down to a beeline beatdown isn't telling the full story. First off, if your opponent can see you, he will probably shoot you. And unless he has horrible timing he should be able to melee you at the same time you melee him. You don't want to die, even in a double beat down, right? So in those few seconds you have to approach your opponent, you need to make sure you don't get hit as much as possible. Strafing, circling as you approach, jumping perhaps, its all vital if you are going to survive a melee combat. If you are successful at lowering his health more than yours, he will die.

But sometimes neither of you have enough time to get the shields down enough to make the melee a killing move. Then, you are stuck facing each other, waiting for the melee to recharge. What do you do in this half second of time makes all the difference. Do I arc around and go for his back (easier with bumper jumper, make the change, it will rock your world.)? Do I attempt to shoot him in the head with my headshot capable weapon, knowing that if I miss the shot he will kill me with his next attack? Do I try to jump over his head and risk him being able to look up and hit me in my feet? Do I back up out of lunge range, hope he melees thin air so I can finish him off? Is the situation hopeless and should I stick him in the hopes he takes out a team mate? Do I back around the corner, jump off the walkway, and hide under a warthog while my shields recharge and hope I can ambush him when he follows?

And, even before the lunge, the question is, should I lunge or not? If you know that neither of you have done enough damage to kill with a melee, and if you don't want to risk the above paragraph's senario and all the critical split second thinking it entails, you could opt out of the melee and continue firing. He punches you, and if you estimated your damage right, you won't die, but meanwhile you have been firing all this time and have gotten to the point where you can melee to kill him before he can melee you a second time.

...Melee combat is far from an uneventful happening.

  • 10.09.2009 10:36 AM PDT

Reach MMO. Here's to hoping.

And the people that believe "the hardcore playlists would be more popular if the rules were strictly MLG" can come off it, now. If you're not willing to support something close to your own setup, there's no reason for us to believe that cloning our own lists and stripping the variety down will attract more people. -- Shishka, Bungie.net

Posted by: Hylebos
Posted by: A7XEric
takes the skill out of the combat...


Just like how it takes no skill to climb a rock wall without first cutting off both your arms right?

Do not confuse skill with handicapping yourself with some honor-derived sense of how the game should be played.

I also completely disagree about your comment about fluidity of combat. Perhaps if you beeline beatdown it isn't terribly fluid but if you are going about it the right way, close quarter combat is a beautiful masterpiece of jumps, spins, utilizing cover, which keeps me coming back to Halo again and again.


QFT

  • 10.09.2009 10:41 AM PDT

The internet is a bad place.

The only time that i can recall missing a melee attack is when i melee to early.The other times they just always seem to land.

  • 10.09.2009 10:41 AM PDT

Posted by: Rob004
Can you lunge while in mid-air?
It is to a degree logical that you can lunge on the ground,but this is a pain in MM to know who should have won.

And i would actually like having the Aim-assist decreased,if not removed.
Made a thread and all about it.There are likeminded people on that to.

On a Halo construct, why is it that when I fly my hornet up high in the air and jump out, it falls back to earth? Halo is rotating to create artificial gravity via centripetal acceleration, which is only works when you have contact with a surface. So if I fly a hornet up into mid air and cut the power, it should float around and eventually crash into the ring or dissapear off into space. It has no contact with the ring, so it shouldn't fall. And don't you "forerunners haz gravity technologies that create the gravity needed to make the hornet fall" because in that case I shouldn't be able to jump as high on Halo as I can on earth because I have not only the centripetal acceleration to overcome to jump but an earth like gravity generated by forerunner gravity machines.

Yet why is this huge flaw in physics ignored?

Its a videogame. The lunge in midair is not super realistic, sure, but without it melee combat gets really boring if you are forced to remain on the ground to fight with a lunge. Just pretend that Chief has rocket boots or something.

[Edited on 10.09.2009 10:45 AM PDT]

  • 10.09.2009 10:44 AM PDT

The internet is a bad place.

In my opinion meleeing would be more fun without the lunge.
Indeed,its a game.Fun comes before realism.

But if we can have both,why not take em both?

[And i have no idea about the whole gravity thing,never thought about it]

  • 10.09.2009 10:50 AM PDT

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Posted by: Chunky_Lover
I am aware of Xbox Connect, I used to play on it.

Since you seem to have some knowledge explaining as to why you think its so balanced? And as to why you think it would work if Reach? I don't see the Lunge/Magnetism broken I see it as an improvement.

My intention of my post was a debate not an arguement so I don't want to turn this discussion into a Flame thread.


I'm all for healthy debates! o]

The lunge system can lead to many more problems, especially with latency issues as everyone saw in Halo 2. You used to either fly through the person, melee them but the punch would weirdly not connect, lunge-canceling problems, the list goes on. However, there was no problem at all with Halo 1's melee system. It was simply this: If you were right next to the person, you melee. If you were within reach to hit him, the melee counted, if not then it would not count. There were no problems of you hitting someone and it not counting. Melee's flying through people. None of that stuff...

I believe in the saying "don't fix it if it's not broken" so when they included this incredibly huge melee lunge (as if the Spartan were actually soaring through space, bending gravity lol) I was like why?

I can understand one weapon having a lunge, such as the Energy Sword, to give it some use since it is only a melee weapon, but to have a lunge for EVERY weapon is very unnecessary.

  • 10.09.2009 10:53 AM PDT

Posted by: Rob004
But if we can have both,why not take em both?

Because Bungie creates games that they really like and hope that other people will like them too, and it seems like they enjoy melee lunging.

  • 10.09.2009 10:54 AM PDT

-blam!- GTFO OF MY SIGNATURE

Superbouncing and sword canceling on Halo 2 made it more enjoyable, but the melee lunge should be powered down. I'm comfortable with Halo 3's level of lunge, so I vote that it stays the same.

  • 10.09.2009 10:54 AM PDT

The internet is a bad place.

Posted by: Hylebos
Posted by: Rob004
But if we can have both,why not take em both?

Because Bungie creates games that they really like and hope that other people will like them too, and it seems like they enjoy melee lunging.


If everyone loves the lunge system,this thread nor this discussion would exist.

  • 10.09.2009 10:58 AM PDT

Posted by: Rob004
Posted by: Hylebos
Posted by: Rob004
But if we can have both,why not take em both?

Because Bungie creates games that they really like and hope that other people will like them too, and it seems like they enjoy melee lunging.


If everyone loves the lunge system,this thread nor this discussion would exist.


You can't make everyone happy can you?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to having some custom game option where you can get rid of melee lunging if some people want to see how truely horrible that is, but making the default multiplayer or campaign like that is a bit silly.

  • 10.09.2009 11:00 AM PDT

The internet is a bad place.

That might indeed be a decision for Bungie.

  • 10.09.2009 11:10 AM PDT

Doc: "i'm a pacifist"
Caboose: "your a thing that babies suck on?"
Tucker: "no dude, that's a pedephile"
Church: "tucker, i think he means a pacifier"

The lunge needs to go IMO, it's too unreliable. It has happened far too many times when a person throws a melee expecting to get that lunge, only not to get it and then get punched out themselves.

The CE melee was the best, consistent, dependable and predictable.

  • 10.09.2009 11:26 AM PDT

Posted by: Chunky_Lover
Actually play Halo Combat Evolved once more. This time a multiplayer LAN match.

A melee is very difficult in Halo Combat Evolved it was almost inefficient to even use a melee. Magnetism allows for you to actually be able to use an efficient melee otherwise it would be hard to beat down an opponent.


And God forbid it actually be difficult to land a melee! You would have to actually aim at your opponents! OH THE HORROR!

  • 10.09.2009 11:41 AM PDT

Doc: "i'm a pacifist"
Caboose: "your a thing that babies suck on?"
Tucker: "no dude, that's a pedephile"
Church: "tucker, i think he means a pacifier"

Posted by: TheBigShow
Posted by: Chunky_Lover
Actually play Halo Combat Evolved once more. This time a multiplayer LAN match.

A melee is very difficult in Halo Combat Evolved it was almost inefficient to even use a melee. Magnetism allows for you to actually be able to use an efficient melee otherwise it would be hard to beat down an opponent.


And God forbid it actually be difficult to land a melee! You would have to actually aim at your opponents! OH THE HORROR!


Well c'mon now, this is the BR generation of Halo players, ease of use is the name of the game.

  • 10.09.2009 11:51 AM PDT

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Posted by: SweetTRIX
Posted by: TheBigShow
Posted by: Chunky_Lover
Actually play Halo Combat Evolved once more. This time a multiplayer LAN match.

A melee is very difficult in Halo Combat Evolved it was almost inefficient to even use a melee. Magnetism allows for you to actually be able to use an efficient melee otherwise it would be hard to beat down an opponent.


And God forbid it actually be difficult to land a melee! You would have to actually aim at your opponents! OH THE HORROR!


Well c'mon now, this is the BR generation of Halo players, ease of use is the name of the game.


This is what I find so sad and where Bungie has been heading after Halo 1... Making the game much easier for the "casual" players who wouldn't learn to get good faster, so look at this extremely easy game we get.

So sad.

  • 10.09.2009 10:06 PM PDT

I really hope they do something about the lunge. In halo 3 its just too much. It makes nearly every CQC fight incredibly inconsistent and connection based. There are times where I make incredibly long 6 foot lunges and others where my spartan melees the air as a target is only 3 feet away.


The main problem is that instead of the melee being a defensive, last resort attack that it was in H1, it became so easy to use and powerful that it promoted rushing and sloppy gameplay over using tactics. It made it too easy to kill someone and shortened kill times too much.

Sure it makes the game more fluid, and is useful for chasing someone down for an assassination, but its simply too overpowered.


a couple solutions:


1. reduce the lunge to 4-6 units. Its currently 8.

2. Keep it the same and decrease the power.

3. Implement a way to dodge or block melees.


  • 10.10.2009 12:11 AM PDT

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Personally, I don't think it makes the game more fluid. On the contrary, I think it makes the game more "desperate". What do you see people doing all the time in CQC situations? The smart players will lead the other player, playing mind games and tricking them into thinking they're gonna rush in for a punch. Then they just stick back only to see the guy they're shooting try to get a desperate "homing melee".


I like your idea of reducing the lunge, but I don't understand the whole units thing. If it is going to stay in the game I'd want it to be just like ODST's. Not too huge, but very short/tight.

Decreasing the power wouldn't do enough justice because then the melee would just become insignificant. Keep the power but just take away the divebomb melee lol

Dodging or blocking melees? lmfao It sounds funny but now that I think about it, it would be very cool to see like a SUPER quick reflex thing to BLOCK melees, not to dodge them. So say you block it, it only does half the damage it would normally do, get what I'm saying?

Overall, good discussion guys o]

  • 10.10.2009 12:18 AM PDT

Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi


Dodging or blocking melees? lmfao It sounds funny but now that I think about it, it would be very cool to see like a SUPER quick reflex thing to BLOCK melees, not to dodge them. So say you block it, it only does half the damage it would normally do, get what I'm saying?

Overall, good discussion guys o]


by dodge i mean evade by crouching, strafing, or jumping like you could in Halo 2. In H3 there's really no way to evade it.

as for blocking, maybe when two players melee at the same time they do damage but don't kill, like sword battles.

  • 10.10.2009 1:19 AM PDT

Posted by: UNKNOWN iXi
Posted by: SweetTRIX
Posted by: TheBigShow
Posted by: Chunky_Lover
Actually play Halo Combat Evolved once more. This time a multiplayer LAN match.

A melee is very difficult in Halo Combat Evolved it was almost inefficient to even use a melee. Magnetism allows for you to actually be able to use an efficient melee otherwise it would be hard to beat down an opponent.


And God forbid it actually be difficult to land a melee! You would have to actually aim at your opponents! OH THE HORROR!


Well c'mon now, this is the BR generation of Halo players, ease of use is the name of the game.


This is what I find so sad and where Bungie has been heading after Halo 1... Making the game much easier for the "casual" players who wouldn't learn to get good faster, so look at this extremely easy game we get.

So sad.


Yes I agree, and I am a casual gamer! I don't mind getting beaten online, but I don't want the game to make me think I'm a better player. I would rather there was a skill gap so that when I do get a kill it feels more rewarding.

  • 10.10.2009 3:56 AM PDT
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Posted by: Chunky_Lover
Actually play Halo Combat Evolved once more. This time a multiplayer LAN match.

A melee is very difficult in Halo Combat Evolved it was almost inefficient to even use a melee. Magnetism allows for you to actually be able to use an efficient melee otherwise it would be hard to beat down an opponent.

Halo Combat Evolved is an outdated game.

*GASP* Blasphemy right?

Bungie knows that resorting to older mechanics isn't the best way to go, but rather moving forward and improving on things that they know work better in this day and age.


Saved me the trouble of typing it up. :)

  • 10.10.2009 5:04 AM PDT

The internet is a bad place.

Posted by: jerbearzzz
as for blocking, maybe when two players melee at the same time they do damage but don't kill, like sword battles.


I think this is a nice idea.Makes meleeing more like a real fight.
Those who are conisistently quicker get the kill.
(just like sword battles,(i love sword battles))

  • 10.10.2009 6:02 AM PDT

I thing it should stay, but have a little less distance than in Halo 3 or ODST, just make it so that it is effective in VERY close quarters.

  • 10.10.2009 6:21 AM PDT
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Only when you're on the ground. It makes no sense how some magical force just pulls you along when you melee in the air.

Also, make it more consistent. I constantly see people meleeing at ridiculous distances at times.

[Edited on 10.10.2009 6:45 AM PDT]

  • 10.10.2009 6:41 AM PDT

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Posted by: NsU Soldier
Posted by: Chunky_Lover
Actually play Halo Combat Evolved once more. This time a multiplayer LAN match.

A melee is very difficult in Halo Combat Evolved it was almost inefficient to even use a melee. Magnetism allows for you to actually be able to use an efficient melee otherwise it would be hard to beat down an opponent.

Halo Combat Evolved is an outdated game.

*GASP* Blasphemy right?

Bungie knows that resorting to older mechanics isn't the best way to go, but rather moving forward and improving on things that they know work better in this day and age.


Saved me the trouble of typing it up. :)


I'm assuming you didn't bother to read my post in response to that...

  • 10.11.2009 11:47 PM PDT

Were it so easy.

I hate it when people make biased polls...

  • 10.11.2009 11:57 PM PDT

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