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  • Subject: General Ideas Reach Multiplayer Gameplay
Subject: General Ideas Reach Multiplayer Gameplay

With B.B. gone, the passion of Bungie.net has lessened.

Sorry for making this it's own thread, but it seemed better to consolidate these ideas into one post separate from all the other large threads already there.

This is a collection of ideas I've mulled over since Reach's launch that I would like to share and get feedback on. More of a thought-exercise than anything else, really. Anyway, I will not say that my ideas would be best for a Halo: Reach game, I only present these ideas, based on the thought that perhaps Reach's gameplay will be a natural progression of not only Halo gameplay, but FPS gameplay in general.

(Note that these ideas are also based off of the assumption that we'll be playing as Spartans/Elites again, at least in competitive multiplayer)

I.) Shields and Health:
Many modern shooters have abandoned the health system in favor of a self-regenerating player stamina feature. Halo 2, Halo 3, Call of Duty, and Gears of War have all used this. You take damage, but if you're out of the fight for long enough, the damage you took regenerates rather quickly. To me, this always seemed like a decision that was made to simplify the hud and increase the pace of gameplay. In other words, you wouldn't have to worry about what number or percentage your health was, and you wouldn't have to stop your progression in a match in order to find a health pack.

I don't really think bringing the health system back a la ODST would be a good decision for competitive multiplayer gameplay, unless you're made more damage-resistant without your shields. In Halo 2 and Halo 3, I would argue that you don't last long enough without shields to make having a "health bar" and health packs placed strategically around the map worthwhile. Your health is a bit insignificant when compared to the shield system. If the damage you could take unshielded were greater, I can see how bringing back a health-system would be a good choice for gameplay, and being more resilient unshielded could also solve a number of other problems, which I'll discuss later.

If the amount of base "health" you have outside of your shields does not change, then I think it would be interesting to see the health itself be less regenerative. So if you know you've taken a lot of damage, you have to change your fighting style, even if you don't know just how much you are hurting. It'll get to the point that once you're unshielded, you'll go down very fast. This would not involve any sort of stamina/health indicator on the HUD, or any regeneration packs placed on the map.

II.) Melee:
This can easily come down to a choice based on aesthetics, so I'll try to keep this tied strictly to gameplay. My problem with the whole lunging system is that in many cases, it doesn't make a lot of sense, physically. I'd like to see the melee system be made more realistic in that if the lunge is going to stay, make it something you can only do while you're on the ground. You shouldn't be able to change your momentum in mid-jump by using a melee; it doesn't really make any sense.

I was also thinking of what it would be like if lunging were changed to be something the player actually controls. For example, let's say you're charging at an enemy player. You want to melee him, but you're not really close enough. Tap the A button (jump), and then immediately afterwards, press (and hold?) B. This will cause your jump to be more forwards than upwards, lunging you towards the target. Otherwise, you would not lunge, and would simply need to be point-blank to melee.

I realize that taking away a default lunge makes the melee mechanic more difficult, or even more frustrating perhaps, than it is in Halo 2 and 3. But I'll admit that I'm a little biased, in that I think there should be less of a focus on melee in an FPS like Halo.

For melee weapons, I would argue that the same should be applied. Yeah, the sword-lunge is cool, but I've always thought it would be much better without it. If the sword is a one-hit kill weapon, its high damage should be it's only advantage. Giving a point-blank weapon the range that is given to the swords in Halo 2 and 3, and the Hammer in Halo 3, doesn't really make much sense in terms of balance, to me. Less people would use it, sure, but you're taking a knife to a gunfight: realistically, there shouldn't be many uses for it anyway. And with the Hammer, since it's an area-of-effect weapon, I think that increasing the explosion damage and taking away the lunge it has would make the weapon more reasonable without changing its overall power too much (and the do-it-yourself lunge mechanic could apply to both of these weapons too).

III.) "Cover System" and Weapon-mounting:
Probably one of the most arguable features that could be added. Let me start by saying that I do NOT think a cover system akin to Gears of War or other games like it should be used in Halo. I'm only proposing a "what if" idea, in the sense of what a cover system might be like if Bungie took the idea and made it something of their own.

I have a few ideas for this, but not a lot that would be feasible for number of buttons on an Xbox controller. One idea I had was to keep cover something easy to use. No buttons you need to press; you just walk behind a box or crate or wall or whatever, and there, you're in cover. Just like in the Halo games we play now. But to take it a step further, let's say you have a sniper-rifle, or some other sort of mountable weapon (like an LMG, perhaps even the Rocket Launcher (debatable)). I've always thought it would be nice to actually use the mounts featured on the sniper rifle, in order to increase accuracy. Now, I know one could argue that as a Spartan, your accuracy should be much better than what one would expect from sniping in a game like Call of Duty 4, but I've always thought that the sniper rifle, just as a weapon in general, would be better balanced and more challenging to use if it were given a "bob" when trying to aim it while moving around (which is what most snipers do; they move). When standing still, this could be decreased, and when crouching, the stability becomes even greater. However, let's say you crouch behind a wall or object that is about as high as your waist, and you pull out the sniper rifle. The moment you zoom in when next to that wall, the rifle (or an LMG, something with mounts), will automatically be mounted on the wall, giving you the greatest stability possible. This would inherently create areas specifically tailored to snipers. This would make snipers and other mounted-gunners harder to hit, as they'd be mostly behind cover, but so long as they're zoomed in, they're effectively "stuck" to the wall they're taking cover behind and mounting on, limiting their mobility if they're occupied with a target.

IV.) Modified Weapons and Starting Weapons:
Before anyone get's off their rocker at me for suggesting weapon mods in Halo, don't worry, I'm not advocating that Halo gameplay be turned into Call of Duty where you can put silencers, scopes, grenade launchers, whatever, on your weapons. None of that would make sense in Halo, as we know Halo today.

What I had in mind was something more akin to weapon variants. The best example to use would be the Assault Rifle. In the books, there are several different versions: MA5B (Halo 1), MA5K (Ghosts of Onyx), MA2B (could be wrong on the alphanumerics, that was featured in a chapter in The Fall of Reach), and the MA5C (Halo 3). These different versions of essentially the same weapon would bet slightly tweaked from one-another in terms of potential accuracy or range, average accuracy or range, clip size, firing rate, and damage per bullet. If you average them out, they're all the same weapon (just as the Spiker is essentially the same as the Plasma Rifle (something Bungie themselves have been quoted saying)).

As a more specific example, let's compare the MA5B and MA5C (Halo 1 and Halo 3, respectively). As it stands, these are not the same weapon in essence. They would both have to be tweaked and rebalanced if featured in the way I'm describing for Reach. However, let's say that the way they shoot remains the same. The Halo 1 AR would have a greater potential accuracy and range than the MA5C when fired in bursts, but with full-auto, the weapon becomes wildly inaccurate at medium ranges. The MA5C would have a greater overall accuracy and range, with less recoil and more control, but also less of a difference in accuracy when fired in bursts, decreasing it's maximum effective range to something less than the MA5B.

These different versions of the same weapons would be choices for starting weapons in basic gametypes (I.E., Slayer, not Slayer BRs). All other weapons would not have modified versions, as they would be weapons you pick up on the ground. Featuring different versions of the same weapon to pick up from spawns on the map could make gameplay a little too complex (though, there could be ways around that; different versions for different maps?). As in Gears 2, you could select which weapon you prefer to start with by default, but before a match starts, you'd be able to choose a different version based on what map you're fighting on. Closer quarters map? Perhaps switch from your MA5C to the MA5B for more effectiveness at close range.

[to be continued...]

  • 10.10.2009 11:08 AM PDT

With B.B. gone, the passion of Bungie.net has lessened.

IV.) Weapon Mods and Starting Weapons, Continued...:
There would be alien equivalents to this as well, though if you choose to play as an Elite, you would not be forced to start with an alien weapon. The best example to use would be Plasma Rifle vs. Spiker. Essentially the same weapon overall, but one does more damage against shields, while the other does more damage against unshielded targets. Perhaps inherently weaker and less reliable overall when compared to an Assault Rifle, but the added effectiveness against shields for energy weapons and (maybe) greater melee damage for weapons like the spiker, as well as the ability to dual-wield, could balance these out with ARs. Using these weapons would give you more options at the start of a match than what you get with an AR, perhaps, but their overall usefulness as fall-back weapons would be less.

Equipment:
I don't have much to say on this, and I don't really know if I'd prefer equipment to stay in the game (while playing ODST, I definitely don't miss it). However, if we assume that equipment will be in the game, I think the way equipment is used should be tweaked a bit:

There are some pieces of equipment that, in general, should be made more useful. Best examples: Trip Mine, Flare, and Radar Jammer. As I understand it, the Jammer was removed not because of it being underused, but because people used it to trick-jump and get to places they shouldn't be able to normally. The best way to remedy this would be to make the equipment smaller in general, and not allow players to jump off of it once it's tossed. For the Trip Mine, I believe it should be more deadly, and also should have the ability to stick to walls (giving it more placement options). And perhaps give it a FoF identification ability so that you cannot betray people with this unless an enemy sets it off while a friendly is near. For the Flare, I think this should be made to NOT blind you when you're not looking at it (in Halo 3, it'll blind you through walls). Either keep it the way it works now in the sense that it's a continuous flare for a few seconds, making it a tool that would allow you to run away from pursuers more easily (Defensive), or make it more like a flashbang (offensive). Otherwise, keep it in Campaign, because it clearly had no real uses other than an annoyance factor in Halo 3 multiplayer.

As far as using any piece of equipment goes, I think it would be neat if all equipment could be thrown the same distance, potentially. If you want it on the ground in front of you, you would have to target the ground in front of you before you toss it. That way, bubble shields would through similarly to power drains, allowing you to throw a bubble shield to a friendly teammate across the field and protect him if need be, from a distance. Same principal with the Regen.

VI.) General Weapon Changes/Additions:
Personally, I think that if a weapon is going to be made for a game, it should have its uses in the game's multiplayer, not just the Campaign. I'd like to see the Fuel Rod Gun and Sentinel Beam be weapons you can find on some multiplayer maps by default, and not be considered over-powered or graphically game-breaking (I suppose that if given the choice, and Bungie really could not make them suitable for multiplayer, then I would at least like to see them in custom games, as they are now, rather than being taken out altogether). But it was disappointing to see that these weapons were not featured in multiplayer in Halo 3, especially after not having them in Halo 2.

In terms of custom multiplayer matches, I would like to see the "problem" with the some of the weapons (like the Carbine) fixed. You should be able to start with any weapon, and put any weapon on any map via Forge. Who cares if it's not fun gameplay in general? It's a custom game. Nobody should care. It's just nice to have that option in any game with that sort of customizability.

VII.) Character Models for Multiplayer and Armor Permutations:
If Brutes are featured as part of the Campaign (which, according to lore, it's possible that there isn't a good reason NOT to include them, as Brutes have been part of the Covenant for quite a while), then they should be made as a playable character model for multiplayer. Yeah, there might be a few little balance issues, but if worked on enough, the issues can be made too minor to matter. They seem like the obvious next choice for a multiplayer model. They already sport different armor permutations, are large enough but not too large, and are upright enough to not run into the same problems inherent with the Elite model.

Bungie almost has the Elite model nailed down tight, in my opinion, but there are still some issues (such as the head-bobbing issue, especially apparent in SWAT gametypes), so they need to be tweaked a little bit more as well. Perhaps it would be a good idea to make the Elite less hunched-over in order to get around this, but that might conflict with artistic design.

Armor permutations are pretty cool, so I'd like to see them make a return. However, I don't feel like one model should have more permutations than another. You should have the same number of choices for each. Furthermore, I think it's important to leave room for DLC armor permutations, even if that means less choices included at game launch (so long as that means we'll have more than we do now by the time the game becomes "obsolete").

VIII.) Brute Sniper Rifle:
I wanted to include my post from the New Gun, Be Creative thread. Why? Well, I just really want to see one of these as a weapon in Halo...

A sort of Brute sniper (well, only if there are Brutes in the game, which there may not be). Like all Brute weapons, this gun would be bladed, perhaps with a straight bayonette on the end of it. If not straight, then three-pronged, where the outer prongs would be curved and bladed for hacking/slashing, and the middle prong straight for stabbing.

As for what the weapon does, it would fire a relatively massive "spike" (larger than the spikes of the Spiker). Due to the mass, the gun would not be an instantaneous shot; the projectile would travel at a visible speed somewhere between human sniper rifle bullets and brute Spiker rounds. The spike would also have a bit of an arc to it (like the Spiker's spikes), so depending on the distance, one needs to adjust the aim, as well as lead the target.

To compensate for this slower velocity and visible arc to the spike's trajectory, the weapon is, for the most part, a one-shot kill gun. Hit anywhere in the head or chest, and if the target has normal shielding, it dies. The only locations it won't kill in one shot are the legs and arms. The Brute Sniper (Hell, let's just call it the "Impaler") would also be effective against vehicles that aren't tanks, able to penetrate the bullet-proof glass of the Warthog's windshield, Banshee and Ghost armor, and the cockpit of Hornets. However, one would need to manage a headshot for the one-hit kill if shooting through vehicle armor to get to the target. To add to it's effectiveness, the physical "stopping power" of the spikes allow the impaler to slow some vehicles, and even flip the lightest of vehicles.

Now here's the best part. Can you say, "Bolt-action?!" So slower reload, and lower max ammo count than other sniper rifles.

Personally, I would go nuts with this weapon. Just think. A high-tech, brutish, bolt-action sniper rifle that, while slow, has some amazing stopping power. I don't think it'd be over-powered if it were hard to aim without scoping. It'd only be featured on larger maps anyway (as having this on a map the size of Guardian would be pretty game-breaking).


That's it for now. I'd like to see what you think about these ideas I had. Again, this is more of a collection of ideas based around the concept of Halo: Reach being a natural progression of shooter gameplay in general, not just Halo. In no way do I think that Halo gameplay should become anything like Gears of War or Call of Duty (though I would like to see more of the CoD-esque "realism," personally, but if I had to choose, I'd want Halo to be Halo).

Any thoughts? Are any of these ideas "game-breaking?" I'd be interested in seeing your reasons if you disagree.

[Edited on 10.10.2009 11:49 AM PDT]

  • 10.10.2009 11:09 AM PDT

Ninjabag the tea-pirates!

I don't want to join your group.

Yes to actual health being shown, yes melee should be weaker, don't think that the game needs a cover system.

  • 10.10.2009 11:10 AM PDT

RIP Halo 2: November 9, 2004-May 10, 2010
I was the 2nd to last person to get kicked off Halo 2, see the thread Here

Halo 3's shield/health system is my favorite out of any video game. I think that if you avoid combat for long enough you should gain back all health that you lost, without any further punishment.

The whole melee system just needs to be redone. Though the lunging isn't really a problem with me, I do think so lunges are a little bit rediculous, and that the regular lunging range should be decreased a little bit. Also I think the damage that a melee with a regular weapons should do half as much damage as it does now, becuase it's just a little bit unrealistic that it takes down all your shields. (Not that I care how realistic Halo is)
The thing with the one-hit-kill melee weapons is that they all kind of even eachother out. Shotgun beats sword, But sword as better lunging ability, and Gravity Hammer and Sword even out, but Gravity hammer effects the whole area it hits, not just a single spartan. In my opinion, there should only be one of these weapons on a single map, it just gets a little too power-weaponish if there is more than one.

I'm not too sure about a cover system. Mass Effect's cover system would probably be the best one to us if Bungie were to add one. All you have to do is walk up to a wall and your guy will cover behind it.
I think a cover system would ruin Halo's fast paced gameplay, and would encourage campers even more. The only thing I think there should be is good cover that lets your whole spartan be safe from bullets, and not just wide open spaces that would ruin how tactical Halo should be.

I was talking about "Weapon Classes" yesterday in a different thread. I think this could work out if the weapons got perfectly balanced with their advantages and disadvantages. It would be a really tough thing to do, but if they did that then this could work.


  • 10.10.2009 11:30 AM PDT

Ninjabag the tea-pirates!

I don't want to join your group.

Halo 3's shield system is good and i like how it regenerates but it would be good to be able to see actual health as well as shield health, it doesn't matter much though.
Other games have stupid health systems like GOW. How do they regenerate health? They have no shields or anything it isn't explained.

  • 10.10.2009 11:37 AM PDT

With B.B. gone, the passion of Bungie.net has lessened.

Well, any cover system added wouldn't be all that different from the Halo we know today, but it would have certain applications to certain, specific weapons. You don't really need to be "stuck" to cover if you're using an AR; you can just walk up to the cover, and crouch behind it.

With Snipers and LMGs (if added), the cover system I described would simply provide greater stability and thus accuracy to these weapons.

  • 10.10.2009 11:42 AM PDT

RIP Halo 2: November 9, 2004-May 10, 2010
I was the 2nd to last person to get kicked off Halo 2, see the thread Here

I agree, equipment should be more useful than it is. The Halo 3-beta trip mine actually killed you if you ran it over, unlike the Trip mine we have now. That basically makes the trip mine useless, and if they do bring it back in Reach it should atleast hurt you.
The Radar Jammer was actually pretty useful, and confusing. I'm not too sure why it got taken away from matchmaking. I think maybe if the team that that threw the radar jammer shouldn't get their radar messed up, to make it something that you have to rush in the beggining of the game.
Power drain is the most useful of the equipment, and it doesn't really need any changing. The same also Kind Of goes with the Regen and Bubble Shield.
For the most part, I say balance out the equipment, or just take it away for good.

I do agree that some new weapons need to be used in Matchmaking, becuase it needs ALOT more variety than just AR, BR, Carbine, Grenades, Snipers, and shotguns. Hopefully Frame-rate lag won't be an issue with those weapons in Reach, so they can be used. Also, lets up there will be more weapons overall in Reach, that are all equally used, and not have a weapon that is used far more than any other weapon; AKA the BR.

Play as Brutes would be really awesome, but remember how many hate threads there were because of the Elite-Headshots problem. Hopefully there won't be anything like this in Reach, this could be really cool. Imagine a game of Slayer with Elites wearing Honor gaurd Armor, Brutes wearing Cheiftan armor, and Spartans wearing Recon/Mark iv.

These are all really good ideas, and hopefully our ideas will be met, for the most part atelast.

  • 10.10.2009 11:55 AM PDT

With B.B. gone, the passion of Bungie.net has lessened.

Posted by: joe campbell
Play as Brutes would be really awesome, but remember how many hate threads there were because of the Elite-Headshots problem. Hopefully there won't be anything like this in Reach, this could be really cool. Imagine a game of Slayer with Elites wearing Honor gaurd Armor, Brutes wearing Cheiftan armor, and Spartans wearing Recon/Mark iv.


As far as playing as the aliens go, if they're in the game, the balance better be polished. I think Halo 3 was close (though I know some disagree), and I definitely don't want to see the option to play as an Elite taken out of the game just because of past balance issues. In my opinion, finish what you start.

And not to be nit-picky, but I can't see why Mark IV would be in Reach, unless it's a "chronicles" game, taking place at different timelines leading up to the events at Reach in the lore. If it's not a chronicle, then Mark V would most likely be the basic armor variant, as nearly all the Spartans were given Mark V right before Reach was attacked.

  • 10.10.2009 12:15 PM PDT

Where is the evidence that elites are harder to headshot?

  • 10.10.2009 12:16 PM PDT

With B.B. gone, the passion of Bungie.net has lessened.

Posted by: iwanneatchips
Where is the evidence that elites are harder to headshot?


It's noticeable when you play Swat. Something to do with the way their heads bob (tends to block bullets). There's also a small spot in the neck that doesn't appear to take any damage.

Personally, it doesn't really change the way the game plays for me. It's noticeable, but I find it to be minor. Elites still die just fine; sometimes I need to swipe a BR shot across their heads though, rather than shooting dead-on, in order to get the headshot.

  • 10.10.2009 12:28 PM PDT

How to spell "space"?

S-P-ACE! SPACE!

Posted by: Jacob A L
Yes to actual health being shown, yes melee should be weaker, don't think that the game needs a cover system.

Melee has been about this strong forever, a Halo CE melee could bring down your shields.

  • 10.10.2009 12:31 PM PDT

With B.B. gone, the passion of Bungie.net has lessened.

Posted by: CookieMan
Posted by: Jacob A L
Yes to actual health being shown, yes melee should be weaker, don't think that the game needs a cover system.

Melee has been about this strong forever, a Halo CE melee could bring down your shields.


True, but the melee mechanic itself was made stronger with Halo 2 by giving it more range (due to the lunge). Similar damage, but you could use it much more often.

  • 10.10.2009 3:01 PM PDT