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This topic has moved here: Subject: The big argument... Classes
  • Subject: The big argument... Classes
Subject: The big argument... Classes

Stop destroying the environment,get of that computer and go into your backyard and build a nuclear powerplant...

:)

People have been arguing and the class system as soon as they saw the banner and watched the trailer. I wouldnt mind classes as long as they add these things. I cant quote from a different thread so i have to copy and paste it...

How do you play grifball with classes?

What about Rocket Race?

What if MLG doesn't want a class based game?

You see, the major reason Halo has survived this long is because if you don't like a gametype or map, it is easy to modify it with custom games and forge to suit your needs. Want a race track? Build it in sandbox. Like SMG pistol starts? You can do that in custom games.

But how do you do you accomidate for these fan favorites that have kept people coming back to Halo with a class system.

A smart person might suggest that gametypes and classes might be editable, so you change the number of classes to one, make the starting weapon BR AR, and wah lah, you have Halo 3 multiplayer.

Were it so easy. Weapons in a class based shooter are balanced entirely differently from weapons in a standard first person shooter like Halo.

Lets say magically overnight that Halo 3 became class based, with all of it's weapons unchanged. Everybody would want to become the Engineer Class with the shotgun or the rocket launcher or the Sniper Class with the sniper because said weapons are stronger than all the others. Their power is outweighed by their rarity, their lack of ammo, and their lengthy spawn times, but if you can spawn with them after every time you die, combat grinds to a halt. Your defense consists of people with shotguns and rockets camping around the flag with snipers trying to pick off the offensive snipers, and nobody would dare drive a vehicle when 8 rockets could be fired at once to end their joy ride.

The only way this could work is if Bungie in effect programs two games in one, balancing the weapon set for one game for a class based shooter, and balancing the weapon set for the other for traditional halo.

But then why bother? There are plenty other class based games. They are not even the slightest competition for Halo, it is still winning by a long shot, after two years of it being out! Its not like class based shooters is stealing all of Halo's population, so Bungie feels the need to compete and surpass said class based shooters with a class based shooter of their own.

Will bungie never make a class based shooter? I never said that, the day may come when they decide to crush the competition and make a class based shooter of their own. But is Halo the right series to do that with? Not really. Thanks to Hylebos for taking your time to post this.

If they add class systems they MUST not let you spawn rocket launchers and the sniper class and the class with the BR will be locked until i high level. The sniper will be locked until the last 5 levels and the BR in the middle. Rockets will have to be picked up and so splazers. The shotgun has also been a problem to spawn with but i think theres no problem with spawning with the shotgun if you ask me. As soon as you unlock the class up the Human gun then the covernet version with it (Thats if there is one) Eg you unlock the sniper you get the beam rifle and the sniper rifle and when you unlock the BR you get a carbine. Also NO bonuses like more turret damage if you are an engineer class and stuff like that...
There should also be gametypes that allow the class system and ones that dont this can also be changed when making a game mode.
Thanks for reading this wall of texts and please take the time to comment (btw am not commenting back to flame and hate so dont bother please...)

[Edited on 10.12.2009 11:31 AM PDT]

  • 10.12.2009 11:30 AM PDT

People should cite their sources =(

  • 10.12.2009 11:32 AM PDT

you copy pasted this

  • 10.12.2009 11:33 AM PDT

Stop destroying the environment,get of that computer and go into your backyard and build a nuclear powerplant...

:)

Posted by: the n00b pwner
you copy pasted this
Read it and i said that i copy and pasted it.

  • 10.12.2009 11:33 AM PDT

Stop destroying the environment,get of that computer and go into your backyard and build a nuclear powerplant...

:)

Posted by: the n00b pwner
you copy pasted this
Read it and i said that i copy and pasted it.

  • 10.12.2009 11:34 AM PDT

BAN ALL BRONIES

i wanna know whats with all the cod based ideas? not just this but im seeing threads about getting a 10 kill streak and be able to call in a pelican and stuff, i guess it sounds alright but completely unoriginal, either way it will probobly be a great game, i cant wait for the beta.

  • 10.12.2009 11:35 AM PDT

Stop destroying the environment,get of that computer and go into your backyard and build a nuclear powerplant...

:)

Posted by: Hunter S7
i wanna know whats with all the cod based ideas? not just this but im seeing threads about getting a 10 kill streak and be able to call in a pelican and stuff, i guess it sounds alright but completely unoriginal, either way it will probobly be a great game, i cant wait for the beta.
I dont like the idea about kill streaks in Halo i love it in COD but it just doesnt fit Halo I also just cant wait for the beta :)

  • 10.12.2009 11:37 AM PDT

With B.B. gone, the passion of Bungie.net has lessened.

To the idea of starting weapon choices: Yes, if only certain weapons were available for this and were properly balanced (i.e., no, you don't start out with a shotgun or rocket-launcher).

To the idea of classes: No. At least not in the same sense as Call of Duty.

The way I see it in CoD is this: Their "class" system (which is really just a character-customization system taken to a starting-weapons/perks extreme, rather than actual classes) works because of you can take someone down quickly with just about ANY gun. Certain guns work better than others, sure, but they're all extremely efficient at killing any other player under almost any condition. In Halo, this wouldn't work out so well. The difference between choosing to start with a shotgun vs. starting with an SMG is huge. Both are close-quarters weapons, but the shotgun greatly overpowers the SMG at extremely close ranges, and doesn't seem to really balance out as well as you might think on most maps when the SMG should have the range-advantage.

But, if there were speed/shield/damage resistance adjustments made to whatever class you wanted to start (another way to balance the game), then a class system might work in terms of gameplay alone. However, if you couple gameplay with the game's setting (let's assume you play as a spartan), this starts to make less and less sense as a good choice. Personally, I wouldn't want to see that either.

The way I would want to see classes, if they had to be in the game, would be very subtle changes to shields/damage resistance/speed/stealth length, and very limited starting-weapons options (different starting AR-type weapons (ARs, PRs, Spikers), and different starting side-arms (perhaps Automag versus Halo 3 Pistol, for example), but not the option to start with a BR or shotgun).

  • 10.12.2009 12:13 PM PDT
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if you want a Sc-fi class based game. similar to Halo Play (Section 8) it's pretty cool.

halo should not be class based. i actually like the simplicity of the multi-player

  • 10.12.2009 12:21 PM PDT

Posted by: Shai Hulud
The way I would want to see classes, if they had to be in the game, would be very subtle changes to shields/damage resistance/speed/stealth length, and very limited starting-weapons options (different starting AR-type weapons (ARs, PRs, Spikers), and different starting side-arms (perhaps Automag versus Halo 3 Pistol, for example), but not the option to start with a BR or shotgun).

Alright now the latter part of the idea is different from what other people have suggested before. And to be honest, I can come up with any flaws with that idea on the spot. I'm guessing its something kinda like GOW where you have a preference for the Hammerburst or the-other-one-that-I-never-used-so-I-forgot-it's-name?

I mean, it could work as follows: Under a generic gametype like Team Slayer instead of having everyone spawn with a "BR" primary and an "AR" secondary you could change it so that you spawn with "Medium Range" primary and a "close range" secondary. You could go into your options and change what your preferences for these weapons are like. To use Halo 3 as an example, your choices for medium range weapons would be BR or Carbine, and your choices for close range weapons would be AR, SMG, Spiker, and Plasma rifle.

Yeah, can't really see that huge of a problem with doing something like that. Especially since if you adamantly want people to spawn with AR Pistol and not Plasma Rifle Pistol, you can always change the settings so that it says "AR Pistol" instead of "Close Range Pistol"

I suppose the former idea could be worked in with an option in custom games to "create special player type". At the beginning of the game, as you choose your teams you can select what type of special player type you are. You can modify it so only a certain number of people could be of said player type or if player types are locked in once you choose them so you can't change around. This would allow for very specialized gameplay like ODSTs vs. Brutes or something. All the ODSTs are shieldless and spawn with smg pistols, but there would be a single brute chieften that someone choose to be (he spawns with a gravity hammer) and then everyone else could choose to be bruteshot wielders, spiker wielders, or plasma rifle wielders (or something).

In effect, it would be like how the VIP is different from other players, but make it so there can be multiple types of VIP and more than one player can be that type of VIP.

Now that could work, unlike having a purely class based shooter where theres a "soldier" "medic" "engineer" "sniper". Its a psuedo style of making a class based shooter option for people who want it but it would have other applications beyond class based shooters.

...I'll think about this a little bit more to think of anything to add / subtract...

  • 10.12.2009 12:28 PM PDT

With B.B. gone, the passion of Bungie.net has lessened.

Posted by: Hylebos


In essence, yes. If you are going to have custom starting weapons like in CoD, I think this is the only way it would work in Halo (I could be wrong) without completely changing the Halo gameplay mechanics (i.e., limited options a la Gears 2, but perhaps more options (and more balanced options)).

I'm not a fan of starting with weapons as powerful as the BR or Carbine in most settings. It's only a necessary start if you're on large maps where gameplay quickly becomes unfun if you're being spawn-sniped-or-BRed from teams that are able to control those weapons (the game becomes too power-weapon based in these instances), and that's only with existing maps. Halo maps could be re-engineered to never need this; even the large ones. Thus, in my opinion, the choices of starting weapons should be limited to side-arms and weapons like Assault Rifles. If the way maps are made in Halo doesn't change (which it doesn't have to), then for certain gametype/map combinations, perhaps there could be an expansion to this to allow for choosing which mid-to-long range rifle you start with).

If you simply added this option to Halo 3, it wouldn't work. The aren't enough choices, nor is there enough balance with the current choices, in order to make a mechanic like this be sensible. So, you could add different weapon variants, like the with ARs: MA3B, MA5B, MA5C, and MA5K (I think those numbers are right; variants described in the books). All could essentially be the same weapon, but with slightly different edges over one another in certain situations, different firing rates, clip sizes, damage per round, and mechanics. Let's take the MA5B and MA5C, for example. These are the Halo 1 and Halo 3 ARs, respectively. If you pictured a graph (sorry) of effectiveness (y-axis) to range (x-axis), I would say that the MA5B would be more effective than the MA5C at close and medium ranges, but not as effective at anywhere in-between (and this is simplified and idealized). At closer ranges, the MA5B with it's superior firing rate, excels over the MA5C, and at the far end of what we would consider medium range, the MA5B excels again due to its ability to be burst-fired for much greater accuracy (but decreasing the damage per second). At anywhere in-between, the steady accuracy and lower kick-back of the MA5C gives it a bit of an edge over the MA5B.

If you took those two weapons as-are and put them in the same game, it wouldn't be as simple. The MA5B would probably average out as something better than the MA5C. However, if you made minor tweaks to both, their average "effectiveness" could be equalized without making one the obvious better choice over the other; the MA5B being a choice for those who operate at extremes (up to far-mid-range, but not long), and the MA5C being the choice for those who like something that's a bit more consistent at any range.

This idea could be easily expanded to alien weapons, too, like the Plasma Rifle and Spiker. Both of these, as they are now, are essentially the same weapon overall, except one does more damage to shields, while the other is more damaging to un-shielded health, and with slightly different accuracy/range. The trick there would be finding a way to truly balance these weapons out with the AR choices. That balance may already exist, due to those weapons having the ability to dual-wield while lacking the stand-alone power of an AR, but this hasn't been fully tested.

You wouldn't have actual classes, just a slightly better ability to choose your playing style from the start of a match.

  • 10.12.2009 2:33 PM PDT

I think you should be able to pick from AR, BR, PR, Magnum, Plasma Pistol, and SMG variants and have them at the start of the game. Each weapon has at least 2-3 variants off the bat.

  • 10.12.2009 2:40 PM PDT
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Seven out of five people are affected by number illiteracy!

If classes exit at all its gona be campaign only. If it is multiplayer it will be simmilar as it is to now, instead of general traits then player traits it will be general traits, Classes Y/N, Class1 traits, class2 traits, ect. Bungie keeps it simple, or at least, lets you keep it simple, with the option for epic.

  • 10.12.2009 2:43 PM PDT
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[Ken Ken]

-_-" classes wont ever happen ina halo game like bungie says

"why change something that isnt broken", even though classes would be cool, i highly doubt you would see it happen.

  • 10.12.2009 2:45 PM PDT

Not classes but ranks can change weaponry.
Say you a private and you start off with the standard issue weapon for that game, a corpral may start with more grenades and Amo and a Sergent Will start with a side-arm as well.

Gunny (gunnery sergent)- more amo and grenades for the above

Luetenent- A Better standard issue weapon and no side-arm.

Captain- The above but with side-arm.

Major- more amo and grenades for the above

Commander- The standard issue weapon and the better one.

Colonel- more amo and grenades for the above

Brigadier- more grenade capacity

General- Standard issue weapon with lots of amo and a sniper rifle/ close range weapon also with alot of amo. Also more grenade capacity and grenades.

How about that!
Pardon my spelling and I havent read all of the replies so I don't know if someone had a similar or identicle idea.

[Edited on 10.12.2009 2:51 PM PDT]

  • 10.12.2009 2:46 PM PDT

With B.B. gone, the passion of Bungie.net has lessened.

Posted by: megafish 911
Not classes but ranks can change weaponry.
Say you a private and you start off with the standard issue weapon for that game, a corpral may start with more grenades and Amo and a Sergent Will start with a side-arm as well.

Gunny (gunnery sergent)- more amo and grenades for the above

Luetenent- A Better standard issue weapon and no side-arm.

Captain- The above but with side-arm.

Major- more amo and grenades for the above

Commander- The standard issue weapon and the better one.

Colonel- more amo and grenades for the above

Brigadier- more grenade capacity

General- Standard issue weapon with lots of amo and a sniper rifle/ close range weapon also with alot of amo. Also more grenade capacity and grenades.

How about that!
Pardon my spelling and I havent read all of the replies so I don't know if someone had a similar or identicle idea.


If they don't use the TrueSkill ranking system, then sure. That would only work if Lieutenants were matched against Lieutenants, etc...

With the current system, this would be horrible.

This is the problem with a lot of suggestions on this forum. If you change something, you usually will need to change something else. There aren't many suggestions made to this forum that don't require rather large secondary changes. Most of those required secondary changes would make the gameplay into something we don't typically think of as "Halo." (Though the suggestion of the person I quoted requires a change in something that doesn't really effect core gameplay mechanics).

So, would the bulk of you like to see changes made to Halo that would make the game feel like something we're not familiar with in Halo Multiplayer, or would you like Halo to stay "Halo" in most aspects?

[Edited on 10.12.2009 2:57 PM PDT]

  • 10.12.2009 2:53 PM PDT

I'm the cult of personality,
I call it like i see it, if i feel the need to be blunt and to the point, then i will, if i feel the need to be very detailed, i will, im here to stay and im here to do things my way, if you respect that or not is your choice, not mine,
and don't worry, while i don't agree with everyone's opinion, i do respect everyone's opinion.

Posted by: Czar_CJ_Elm
if you want a Sc-fi class based game. similar to Halo Play (Section 8) it's pretty cool.

halo should not be class based. i actually like the simplicity of the multi-player

  • 10.12.2009 2:57 PM PDT

I think that the only way this would work is if

A) All weapons were not available at beginning or early noobish rank.

B)Power weapons would be special slot and cannot be reloaded after. Like only two shots for a rocket launcher and you can't pick up ammo.

C) Only allowed you weapon, but AR's and BR's should respawn around map and these are able to be picked up.

Just think CoD. You don't get betties, double barrels and a PTRS in the beginning.

  • 10.12.2009 3:03 PM PDT

Posted by: T1B3R7uMB0YXVI
Chief vs the scarab? I find that hard to believe to roundhouse boot the scarab's figurative emotion out of the gaming zone.

I absolutely love the idea of starting weapon customization for custom games, but that's it.

If Halo let you choose starting weapons, whether because of a class system or not, then what would be the point of weapon pickups on the map? You would already have your optimal configuration right from the get go, so why bother looking for anything else?

Besides, the day that every little wannabe-sniper-pro is able to start every single game with a sniper rifle so that he can run around constantly trying to pull of no-scopes is the day that I seriously just quit altogether.

  • 10.12.2009 3:24 PM PDT

Posted by: Geo121
What if MLG doesn't want a class based game?

I stopped reading after this. I hate MLG fgts. I'm happy they're out of my ODST and I hope they stay out of my Reach. Halo isn't their game, and it shouldn't be tailored to they're crappy rules like "no elites". They all T-bagging 12-year-old loser -blam!-s.

  • 10.12.2009 3:27 PM PDT

I'd like classes but only give small advantages and pick from these five weapons: SMG, Assault rifle, plasma rifle, magnum. These would have to be changed a little bit But I think it'd add variety to gameplay.

  • 10.12.2009 3:40 PM PDT

With B.B. gone, the passion of Bungie.net has lessened.

Posted by: GrinnialVex
I absolutely love the idea of starting weapon customization for custom games, but that's it.

If Halo let you choose starting weapons, whether because of a class system or not, then what would be the point of weapon pickups on the map? You would already have your optimal configuration right from the get go, so why bother looking for anything else?

Besides, the day that every little wannabe-sniper-pro is able to start every single game with a sniper rifle so that he can run around constantly trying to pull of no-scopes is the day that I seriously just quit altogether.


That's exactly why if the feature is in the game, it should be limited to only AR, sidearm, and/or SMG-type choices, and not anything else.

  • 10.12.2009 3:41 PM PDT