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Subject: If This Game Is Geared Even MORE Toward Casual Players How Will You...

Posted by: BTE


The BR is a faster kill, plus, we do not have Carbine starts.

All the more reason for M6D creation.

  • 10.20.2009 5:01 PM PDT

Dust it up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All the people against the BR keep saying that there is no way around the BR. That if you have you win the firefight.
I have been in countless gunfights were the person weilding the AR -blam!- me up, just becuase he knew how to crouch and when to strafe.
Find away around the BR, make strats and strafe you nooby mother-blam!-s.

  • 10.20.2009 5:01 PM PDT
  • gamertag: BJRSCJ
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Posted by: BTE
Great post.

Personally the main problem I ever faced on Halo 2 is that once I got to 30, it was nearly impossible (alone, maybe with a group things were different) to level up past that due to the great number of modders and standbyers. The highest level I got was 34 and I lost it quickly thanks to what I mentioned above, i managed to get my level back to 32 and just quit the game. My best friend had the same problem with the game. You could argue that Halo 3 has a flawed ranking system when compared to Halo 2 but when you think about it, I think Bungie noticed that getting to level 50 on Halo 2 was nearly impossible so they made it easier to get a higher level on Halo 3.
I don't think H2's system was perfect. In fact, there were a lot of flaws with it. That being said, H3 definitely goes too far the other way.

Posted by: BTE
As for how competitive a game is, and how much does luck play a part on an encounter, I used to play WoW and on that game luck was more of a factor than it is in Halo 3. But even if you managed to get really lucky, that all wouldn't matter in the long run because skill would triumph over luck (im talking about same classes, same equipment and everything). In Halo, another thing (which you did not mention, was the fact that in 2, there was a horrible auto aim and bullet magnetism. Doesn't that add up to how inconsistent the game itself was? There seems to be some kind of auto aim in Halo 3 but is much lower than on Halo 2.
I agree. The better players will usually win. That being said, I believe that Bungie could make a game that caters to both fans. I think a large part of that is the ranking system, but weapons do play a part in that. But I really do agree with you that the best players still do win.

Posted by: BTE
You also comment on the BR, its spread and how luck came into play. Since this is another BR thread lets talk about the weapon. I agree that the weapon could be considered inconsistent, but aren't automatic and burst weapons like that? Also, why is it that they don't use the Carbine then? The Carbine's overall design (as a weapon) is a lot better than the BR and it is much more consistent. You miss your shot, and you are screwed. You don't get 2 other bullets to make up for your bad aiming. Very similar to the old Halo:CE pistol. Wouldn't you agree with me then that its bogus for them to keep the BR as it is when they already have a weapon that is superior to it (as far as gameplay mechanics go)? Same goes for these MLG kids that say: "the BR is more competitive".
I COMPLETELY agree. I hate the BR. I am pro carbine all the way. The BR shouldn't be more accurate because the headshots are already too easy to get. I've written about this a million times, so check out this link and the quote below from another thread:

Posted by: fifthderelicte
1. Being a burst weapon is fine. Heck, we have automatic weapons in Halo. The problem with this burst weapon, however, is that it's headshot capable. Think about SWAT and how easy it is to get headshots on unshielded people as opposed to using a single magnum or carbine. BRs allow you to swipe shoot and it makes headshotting take 0 skill.

2. But what about all those times you're in an epic battle with someone because you can't get the headshot at the range you're at? Doesn't that mean it does take aim? Not at all. Just think about all the complaints about the BR's accuracy. It is random at all but the closest medium range situations (it starts to go at a distance from gold to in front of snipe on guardian). This randomness makes for imprecise battles and can cause the victor not to be the one with the most skill, but the one who got the lucky break.

3. Of course a lot of weapons work that way, and we don't want a sniper, right? Well, how many snipers take 12 bullets to kill? The BR and carbine are both intended to be medium/medium-long weapons. When you make the core weaponset (those weapons which control the map the best, but aren't power weapons - so you can find them more readily)random, it means that you are randomizing the most used guns in the game. When you do that, it means you downplay skill. So how can you make a core weapon be just that - a great map controlling weapon - but one that is not a sniper and overpowered? I'll tell you.

What needs to be done for a headshot capable, core weapon, is to not have burst, first of all. When that's completed, the accuracy needs to be bumped up to almost perfect. On top of that, the zoom may be toned down just a bit, or maybe kept the same. Think about how hard it would be to headshot someone across standoff, even if the BR accuracy was almost perfect. The lack of zoom on the reticule makes it harder to hit targets because you're not zoomed in. The same thing applies to any of you hunters out there. You know what I'm talking about, when you move from your 22 with the dinky scope to your 243 with the massive scope.

This will allow the BR to be a skilled, accurate core weapon, but it will actually make it harder to get headshots at range (you can't get lucky with a random burst), but doable with skill. This not only makes the gameplay much better and more consistent, but it makes the skill gap larger too, which would be great. Compare the amount of those in the 40s from H3 to H2. It's gross.

4. Finally, if you still think the BR would be like a sniper, think about this. If the BR were made to be single fire, you would then technically need 12 bullets to kill. I think that's a little too much, and should either bump up the rate of fire, or move it down to 8 shots to kill (same as carbine). The big thing with these tweaks are to play with the power and rate of fire to make the BR kill in the amount of time you want it to be able to kill (around the time it kills now). With this and the single shot implemented, you have to skillfully land 8-12 different shots, rather than allow the burst to help you get lucky (or unlucky) at times.

Yes, that sounds similar to the carbine, and it is. However, what weapons don't have clones? Also, you could manipulate the rate of fire and/or power to make it kill in less/more shots but with the same speed, making it feel different than the carbine. Or, just take away the HS capability, bump up the power a little (so it takes 6 bursts or so to kill to the body) and now you have a medium ranged weapon that would suck at CQ, but still pings snipers out at medium ranges and can kill. It wouldn't be as accurate as the carbine, giving the carbine its own little niche.

5. I think the BR, and other long range weapons should have decreased melee damage, forcing them to play at their distances rather than being a jack of all trades (melee - burst to head = death). This would create a more balanced BR and allow for more tactical thinking in terms of weapon selection.

As it stands, the current BR is very used because it's a core weapon, it's powerful, and it's prevalent. However, it is a random, lucky, and easy weapon (in terms of HS anyway). They need to fix it to be a fine tuned, sklled, consistent weapon that will increase the skill gap. We need a core weapon, but it should not be the BR as it is now.

  • 10.20.2009 5:04 PM PDT

I play on weekands and what's wrong with casual gamers? Yes there should be less full auto weapons. I played Halo 3 competetively for a few months and got bored. I then started playing custom games and that's what kept me on Halo for all these years.

  • 10.20.2009 5:05 PM PDT

How to spell "space"?

S-P-ACE! SPACE!

Halo 3 was more hardcore oriented. As in, more -blam!- oriented.

  • 10.20.2009 5:13 PM PDT

Posted by: fifthderelicte
Posted by: disgruntledfan2
You do know you can use a sniper if you don't find the BR sniper enough for your tastes.


Don't get me wrong, we're all biased, but your colors really show through here. You made a very intelligent post about the stupidity of H2 weapons (which I agree with), but then bring in your bias here. I used to be just like you, hating the idea of consistency, as the H2 BR blinded me. Yes, the H2 BR was way too easy to use, but that was largely because of magnetism and autoaim in H2. The burst also blows, which I hated both in H2 and H3, as it makes HS too easy.

That being said, if autoaim were reduced even more and if the reticule were a bit smaller, you'd have a weapon that would take skill to use. The current BR is the opposite of the H2 BR, and IMO, the opposite of a sniper. It is very inaccurate at range, there is little consistency, etc. Shooting a BR at anything farther than a relatively close mid range is like trying to 16 shot with an AR at a farther close range situation. The BR in H3 is a glorified AR and has been extremely dumbed down, which actually reduces fair matches as well as skill.

Please read my previous two posts for reference to this so I don't have to repeat myself on how this ruins gameplay.


Fixing the BR would just promote camping with it at far range like a sniper even more and make the other weapons useless. The only way to fix the problem is by filling the range gaps, and making all weapons have a longer range.

Range Gap in Halo 2:

[[[----]------]--------------------------------]-----------]

The first enclosure is the shotgun. The next enclosure is the smg/plasma rifle. The final enclosures are the battle rifle and sniper.

The Range gap in Halo 3 is similar but with a longer range shotgun, a shorter range SMG, and an Assault rifle, with shorter range Battle Rifle.

The range gap should be more like:

I-----I-----I-----I-----I-----I

The range gaps need to be filled, and all of the weapons need to have a longer range in a basic Rock, Paper, Scissors balance for an arcade game like the original Halo.

Another way would be to make the game more tactical. The SMG would have a small range like this:

I-----I

but burst firing at different intervals and the weapon should have a longer range:

Burst firing within 1/8 of a second.

I---------I

Burst firing within 1/4 of a second.

I----------------I

Etc. Not proper math. Sorry. Just an example.

When burst firing properly the SMG can kill at far range and a player can revolt against an assault rifle and even a battle rifle user, but the Battle Rifle should obviously kill quicker at this optimum range. Of course, if he sucks then the SMG player will get the upper hand. This would allow for a longer range Battle Rifle without making all of the other weapons useless past ten feet. Then the Battle Rilfe user can fight a sniper without the sniper dominating.

[Edited on 10.20.2009 5:19 PM PDT]

  • 10.20.2009 5:14 PM PDT

get out of here stalker

Halo 3 is not aimed toward casual gamers.
Dun b sily

  • 10.20.2009 5:15 PM PDT

Here’s what Luke had to say about the differences in treatment between the Spartans and Elites in Reach:

“Instead of piece-by-piece customization like the Spartans, Elite customization is a full model swap with models selected from the various Elite classes appearing throughout the Campaign. There are all kinds of reasons for this, not the least of which is our continued emphasis on the Spartan as your identity in Reach.”

I will enjoy it.

  • 10.20.2009 5:20 PM PDT
  • gamertag: BJRSCJ
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Posted by: disgruntledfan2
I agree with the idea of giving weapons different functionalities. I promote this. You get a sucky player with an SMG to hold the trigger and he is inaccurate. You get a skilled player and they can use the weapon more effectively.

That being said, I was not promoting a longer range, per se, on the BR. I realize that it would be more accurate at range, but if you have the current scope, or if you'd bump the scope down a little, it would be VERY hard to hit at a long distance, as the target to reticule ratio would be relatively the same. Even if you didn't do that, you could implement less autoaim and magnetism and you have a pretty hard to use BR. We think of a more accurate BR as being so bad because of our H2 experience. But that was largely due to magnetism/autoaim. Take that away and reduce the zoom (or keep it the same) and it requires a lot of skill to use at any distance.

And you do make a good point about the camping, but I think the lack of strong zoom would prevent that from happening to the extent you're worried. I don't think it would be any worse than it is now. In fact, with a precision weapon, it would actually be harder to hit someone because you couldn't rely on a burst to help you. You'd have to be right on (I'm talking about a single shot BR or a carbine, not the current spread BR).

[Edited on 10.20.2009 5:24 PM PDT]

  • 10.20.2009 5:21 PM PDT

Im 17 Senior 2011 "Senior year thats whats up"
Scouts, AFJROTC, and Track are my extra-corriculars

other profile so i can earn gamerscore

I AM CATBREAD

its a game grow up and smell the roses most good players ARE weekend warriors who have lives and school/work and it is impossible to play unlimited amounts of time like a middle schooler/failure at school/unemployed person can...
It is also good to occasinally goof off and mess around in a match which i do in Big Team.

  • 10.20.2009 5:24 PM PDT

"Dear Humanity; we regret being alien bastards. We regret coming to Earth. And we most definitely regret that the Corps just blew up our raggedy-ass fleet!"
—Avery J. Johnson
click it you know you want to

Posted by: Doodlebox
Halo 3 is not aimed toward casual gamers.
Dun b sily

Yes it is, what you talking about? Call of duty:WaW? i think so.

  • 10.20.2009 5:28 PM PDT

"Dear Humanity; we regret being alien bastards. We regret coming to Earth. And we most definitely regret that the Corps just blew up our raggedy-ass fleet!"
—Avery J. Johnson
click it you know you want to

Posted by: Spazzy Ninja
its a game grow up and smell the roses most good players ARE weekend warriors who have lives and school/work and it is impossible to play unlimited amounts of time like a middle schooler/failure at school/unemployed person can...
It is also good to occasinally goof off and mess around in a match which i do in Big Team.

Ditto that, and same here. Goofing off in the middle of a game is fun, people start yellin' 'cause you not doin' what they want. you get into a mongoose and start runnin over people, then you die, they yell at you. Ah, the days of fun.....alas, they are slowly dieing because of competative games such as Call of Duty and Gears of War. Battlefield is still fun though.

  • 10.20.2009 5:33 PM PDT

i like me...

THERE IS NOT A SINGLE GAME OUT THERE THAT WAS CREATED SPECIFICALLY FOR MLG...THEY TAKE GAMES AND DO THEIR OWN THING WITH THEM.

HALO 3
GEARS OF WAR 2 - http://www.mlgpro.com/video?play=279338
CALL OF DUTY 4
CALL OF DUTY: WORLD AT WAR
RAINBOW 6 VEGAS 2
WORLD OF WARCRAFT

ALL THOSE GAMES ARE GAMES MLG USES!
BUNGIE IS NOT DESIGNING HALO: REACH TO BE THE ULTIMATE MLG GAME. THEY ARE DESIGNING A GAME THAT WILL BE FUN FOR ALL. MLG WILL ADAPT TO WHATEVER BUNGIE MAKES AS THEY HAVE WITH EVERY OTHER GAME!

[Edited on 10.20.2009 5:49 PM PDT]

  • 10.20.2009 5:38 PM PDT

#1 this will never happen.... #2 if it did i would be so angry it would be crazy, halo is know for how much skill it takes.

and i know that all of you dont want this to turn into a Call Of Duty noob fest

  • 10.20.2009 5:43 PM PDT

"Dear Humanity; we regret being alien bastards. We regret coming to Earth. And we most definitely regret that the Corps just blew up our raggedy-ass fleet!"
—Avery J. Johnson
click it you know you want to

Posted by: the tator
#1 this will never happen.... #2 if it did i would be so angry it would be crazy, halo is know for how much skill it takes.

and i know that all of you dont want this to turn into a Call Of Duty noob fest

Amen.

  • 10.20.2009 5:44 PM PDT

Posted by: Skinny Genes
I would love it.
I'm fed up with all of these MLG wanna be idiots. They can't play the game for what it is.

Halo was never intended to be a hard-core, seat gripping, cant-go-eat-dinner-now-mom game. Its a relaxed, slow paced game.

Although I don't have a problem with MLG directly, I do have a problem with the players who believe all Halo should be about is the BR, Sticky Grenades, and Midship.


I'm guessing you've never heard of Halo: Combat Evolved.

  • 10.20.2009 5:46 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Senior Legendary Member

Posted by: BTE
Posted by: Xharpan
it doese'nt look nextgen , looks good but not nextgen
If by next-gen you mean crappy, dark and colorless, I agree. It doesnt look next-gen at all.

Posted by: ericstifer
THERE IS NOT A SINGLE GAME OUT THERE THAT WAS CREATED SPECIFICALLY FOR MLG...THEY TAKE GAMES AND DO THEIR OWN THING WITH THEM.

HALO 3
GEARS OF WAR 2 - http://www.mlgpro.com/video?play=279338
CALL OF DUTY 4
CALL OF DUTY: WORLD AT WAR
RAINBOW 6 VEGAS 2
WORLD OF WARCRAFT

ALL THOSE GAMES ARE GAMES MLG USES!
BUNGIE IS NOT DESIGNING HALO: REACH TO BE THE ULTIMATE MLG GAME. THEY ARE DESIGNING A GAME THAT WILL BE FUN FOR ALL. MLG WILL ADAPT TO WHATEVER BUNGIE MAKES AS THEY ALWAYS HAVE!


My thoughts exactly. Isn't that what makes Halo such a great game? The fact that it has so many options you can customize that it doesn't matter what or who Bungie's main target audience is, hardcore players can still feel at home when playing certain gametypes.

  • 10.20.2009 5:49 PM PDT

Posted by: the tator
#1 this will never happen.... #2 if it did i would be so angry it would be crazy, halo is know for how much skill it takes.

and i know that all of you dont want this to turn into a Call Of Duty noob fest

Skill it takes? SKILL IT TAKES?! Are you mad? What is wrong with you! All you have to do is run up to people and beat them down twice for a kill! That doesn't take much skill. There's even an assist when beating down! I really hope they take that out also!

  • 10.20.2009 5:54 PM PDT
  • gamertag: BJRSCJ
  • user homepage:

Posted by: BTE
My thoughts exactly. Isn't that what makes Halo such a great game? The fact that it has so many options you can customize that it doesn't matter what or who Bungie's main target audience is, hardcore players can still feel at home when playing certain gametypes.


I am by no means MLG, and I hated many aspects of Halo 2, but Halo 3 really muffed gameplay a lot. There is no weapon useful between the AR and BR, and between the BR and sniper. Weapons are dumbed down and there isn't that much there for better players. I'm not about catering to MLG, but I'm also not about catering to the bottom and fleeting group of players.

  • 10.20.2009 5:55 PM PDT

"Dear Humanity; we regret being alien bastards. We regret coming to Earth. And we most definitely regret that the Corps just blew up our raggedy-ass fleet!"
—Avery J. Johnson
click it you know you want to

Now to make everyone laugh

  • 10.20.2009 5:56 PM PDT

You are lame...

If that happens I will go and play Shadowrun. Problem solved.

  • 10.20.2009 6:10 PM PDT

Posted by: Dustinw1
Now to make everyone laugh

Rated J for Jesus Only.

  • 10.20.2009 6:14 PM PDT

A Hell Jumper - Heroic, a Spartan - Legendary, be We're Mythic; Spartan Mythic Team.
Mythic Actual / Mythic 1
Post to everyone who complains about Reach instead of shutting up and playing something else. http://initiativedesignz.webs.com/HaloReachStuff/Fixn.jpg

It better NOT be geard towards casual players. I'll just drop everything &- & move on w/ my life to better things.

  • 10.20.2009 6:26 PM PDT

Posted by: jfarag95
Posted by: BTE


The BR is a faster kill, plus, we do not have Carbine starts.

All the more reason for M6D creation.

Actually, the Carbine kills faster. Anyways, I think that it requires more, how you say, "Skill" than the Battle Rifle.

We don't get starts in Halo 3, but we are able to on Halo 2. It doesn't mean that we won't be able to in Reach.

  • 10.20.2009 6:30 PM PDT

I actually might, start thinking about going back to real life if this game is also :P.

  • 10.20.2009 6:35 PM PDT